Need some advice

[Jaiided]

First and Foremost, I just want to say thanks! I don’t post much, but I read all the time and I get a lot of things from reading these forums.

I need some help. Sometimes I am uncomfortable talking about real personal things so I am going to tell a little story and I need some help please.

Lets say that you have a young lady (early 20’s) which was saved almost a year. I was with that young lady when she was saved. Within a few months, she had started to do things that were contrary to “normal” Christian behavior (please don’t flame me), like Constantly cursing, the worse music you can think of, the type that talks about drinking, raping women, doing drugs etc. During this time she also was drinking herself to passing out point at least once a week.

A few months ago, I started to hear some rumors that she was in a homosexual relationship with another woman. At Christmas I got to talk to this girl and she said that if she wanted to be friends with them that her was business, nobody else’s, but she wasn’t in a relationship.

I am really good friends with this girls mother, and this girls mother had heard the rumors and received some news from people who had seen this girl and her “girlfriend” all over each other in public, and especially when out in the evenings. This girl’s mother (who is a born again Christian) confronted this girl and she swore on a bible that she was not a homosexual… 3 times. She still continues to go to church, (when she doesn’t have a hangover) and she acts like there is nothing wrong with that.

Just this past weekend, she admitted that she was to my brother. She said she panicked when her mother asked her if she was a homosexual. She said she has been in this relationship for several months and is the happiest she has ever been.

Now I get to where I am not…. I know I am to place her on God’s Alter and let him do what he needs in her heart, but I am having a real hard time of it. I really love this girl (sisterly fashion of course) and worry about her. She has a 5-year-old son who lives only with her and who knows how he is taking this. I haven’t seen her since Christmas.

What are the penalties for lying on a bible? I don’t understand how someone can claim to be born again, and yet still do all the things that she is doing. I am just lost as to how to deal with her.

Thanks for reading my post and if anyone has any advice, please let me know.

God Bless,

Heather/Jaiided

[Crescendo]

First and foremost, welcome to the posting public! Your's was very well articulated so please jump in more often.

Originally posted by Jaiided
What are the penalties for lying on a bible? I don’t understand how someone can claim to be born again, and yet still do all the things that she is doing. I am just lost as to how to deal with her.

I would suggest that you love her through it all. You don't have to condone it but you needn't shun her either. It doesn't sound like you're all that close from the limited contact so you can be pleasant and polite when your paths do cross. Obviously she has some idea that her behavior is wrong from her actions already. Furthermore, if she's a part of God's family, the Holy Spirit will work on her heart and convict her - possibly the guilt is why the drinking binges continue for now.

Pray for her. Plant a seed when you are able. The HS will work from there.

[Elizabeth_S]

I would say that lying is lying.

No different than if she lied without putting her hand on a bible.

Lying, murder, adultery, the bible says they are all the same. There are no degrees of lying. That i have read in the bible.

[Patty T]

What a compassionate heart God has given you.

I don't know what advice I can offer except to bring this whole question/issue before His throne and ask Him for wisdom and discernment in dealing with this.

There may be issues or situations that He is allowing to happen in order to bring your friend (literally) to her knees to see her need for Jesus and to seek Him and His face.

Continue to be a good witness and pray, pray, pray.


Patty

[Rom831]

Scripture says simply, to not swear:

James 5:12
But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath; but your yes is to be yes, and your no, no, so that you may not fall under judgment.

Swearing on the Bible is a no-no to begin with, therefore there is no additional 'penalty' for swearing on it and lying. It is simply a lie. Let your yes be a yes and no be no. Anything else is improper. And anytime you go against what you have said is still a sin.

Bless...ArtS

[Elizabeth_S]

Originally posted by Rom831
Scripture says simply, to not swear:

James 5:12
But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath; but your yes is to be yes, and your no, no, so that you may not fall under judgment.

Swearing on the Bible is a no-no to begin with, therefore there is no additional 'penalty' for swearing on it and lying. It is simply a lie. Let your yes be a yes and no be no. Anything else is improper. And anytime you go against what you have said is still a sin.

Bless...ArtS

You said way better than I did. :D:

I believe that Jaiilad was concerned over her particularly swearing on the bible she was not lying.

I thought he was asking if that is a worse crime than "ordinary" lying.

[annie10]

Jaided, could she be saying this, just because she wants people, her parents, to beleive that she is Christian.

The reason I say this, is because my 17 year old son, was saying the same things, to me and others at church. While all the while going on drinking and doing drugs He came to church with me only when he wanted. But he liked everyone there and wanted to be accepted by them, and wanted to have a relationship with me also.

It is so difficult, when a young person is confused this way. They hear the message and want so much to receive it, but the world takes over, and they follow it.

I can't make my son accept the Lord, that is between him and God, put I sure can pray, that somehow God will touch him and change him.

He deceived many people, and lied about the things he was doing.

Keep praying for her. That's about all you can do. Comforting the situation makes things worse, because they know that what they are doing is wrong in the eyes of God. And they may run away from Him even more, because they are convicted.

I hope this helped in some way. It is very hard!!

[Jaiided]

I am sorry it took me so long to reply, I have been offline most of the day.

Annie, I think you have it the closest, I think she wants her family and me to believe that she is a Christian. She wants the acceptance of the Church and of her family and friends. I know she has had friends pull away from her because of this (mutual friends). And I know she has had family members pull away from her.

All I think I can do is put her on God's alter and pray that the holy spirit reaches her and know that she is in Gods hands. I don't think that confonting her would be the best course of action, I just want her to know I still love and care about her, I always will. I want to be there if she needs it, but I cannot condone her behavior. I will continue to pray for her, as always.

It helps to know that her lying on the bible is still just lying. I consider the bible the most precious thing on earth that I own. It is God's word and love letter to us. I personally don't understand how someone could do that, but then again that is just me and my opinion.

Thank you all so much for the advice! As always you all are very wonderful, and I am blessed you are here posting.

God Bless you all!
Heather/Jaiided

[ylf1999]

Originally posted by Jaiided
First and Foremost, I just want to say thanks! I don’t post much, but I read all the time and I get a lot of things from reading these forums.

I need some help. Sometimes I am uncomfortable talking about real personal things so I am going to tell a little story and I need some help please.

Lets say that you have a young lady (early 20’s) which was saved almost a year. I was with that young lady when she was saved. Within a few months, she had started to do things that were contrary to “normal” Christian behavior (please don’t flame me), like Constantly cursing, the worse music you can think of, the type that talks about drinking, raping women, doing drugs etc. During this time she also was drinking herself to passing out point at least once a week.

A few months ago, I started to hear some rumors that she was in a homosexual relationship with another woman. At Christmas I got to talk to this girl and she said that if she wanted to be friends with them that her was business, nobody else’s, but she wasn’t in a relationship.

I am really good friends with this girls mother, and this girls mother had heard the rumors and received some news from people who had seen this girl and her “girlfriend” all over each other in public, and especially when out in the evenings. This girl’s mother (who is a born again Christian) confronted this girl and she swore on a bible that she was not a homosexual… 3 times. She still continues to go to church, (when she doesn’t have a hangover) and she acts like there is nothing wrong with that.

Just this past weekend, she admitted that she was to my brother. She said she panicked when her mother asked her if she was a homosexual. She said she has been in this relationship for several months and is the happiest she has ever been.

Now I get to where I am not…. I know I am to place her on God’s Alter and let him do what he needs in her heart, but I am having a real hard time of it. I really love this girl (sisterly fashion of course) and worry about her. She has a 5-year-old son who lives only with her and who knows how he is taking this. I haven’t seen her since Christmas.

What are the penalties for lying on a bible? I don’t understand how someone can claim to be born again, and yet still do all the things that she is doing. I am just lost as to how to deal with her.

Thanks for reading my post and if anyone has any advice, please let me know.

God Bless,

Heather/Jaiided

we live in a time of heavy spiritual warfare. You need to pray for your friend and contact Aineo1 from this message board :):

I am praying

[Jacob]

Originally posted by Jaiided
...Lets say that you have a young lady (early 20’s) which was saved almost a year... Within a few months, she had started to do things that were contrary to “normal” Christian behavior...During this time she also was drinking herself to passing out point at least once a week...A few months ago, I started to hear some rumors that she was in a homosexual relationship with another woman...She still continues to go to church, (when she doesn’t have a hangover) and she acts like there is nothing wrong with that...Just this past weekend, she admitted that she was to my brother. She said she panicked when her mother asked her if she was a homosexual. She said she has been in this relationship for several months and is the happiest she has ever been.

While I believe that God understands that Christians cannot achieve total, moral, sinless perfection in this life, nevertheless, the bible teaches that we can rightly claim that such people may not have eternal life despite any professions they made to the contrary.

The apostle Paul wrote: "if any one is in Christ, they are a new creation, old things pass away. Behold, new things have come." (2 Corinthians 5:17). Paul also wrote that "the grace of God has appeared bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibily righteously and godly in this present age." In other words, the grace of God that saves us also changes our lives after we are saved.

Your friend's claim that she is very happy while living in abomination gives rise to suspicion that she was not saved to begin with. If the Holy Spirit is truly living inside of her, as He is with every Christian, then she should be experiencing conviction over these sins.

However, since she is a professing Christian, and since she does attend church (at times), the the Bible does have a remedy for this kind of problem.

Jesus taught in Matthew 18: 15-17 that the church must discipline a believer who is living in continual sin while in their midst. The process starts with a private confrontation with the sinning person, and, if there is no progress, gradually progresses to the point wher ultimately the church leadership must be involved. If the problem is not corrected at this level, then the sinning person must be excommunicated from the fellowship until they do repent. Jesus said that when it reaches the point when they refuse to listen to the church, then they can be regarded as an unbeliever. The apostle Paul also used this practice in 1 Corinthians 5:1-13, when he ultimately commands to "remove the wicked man from among yourselves."

If this person is a true Christian, then this process should bring them to repentance. If they do not, then the church is better off without them. The apostle Paul wrote that "a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough," i.e., a little bit of sin that is tolerated will ultimately produce an adverse effect on everyone.

[annie10]

Originally posted by Jacob
While I believe that God understands that Christians cannot achieve total, moral, sinless perfection in this life, nevertheless, the bible teaches that we can rightly claim that such people may not have eternal life despite any professions they made to the contrary.

The apostle Paul wrote: "if any one is in Christ, they are a new creation, old things pass away. Behold, new things have come." (2 Corinthians 5:17). Paul also wrote that "the grace of God has appeared bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibily righteously and godly in this present age." In other words, the grace of God that saves us also changes our lives after we are saved.

Your friend's claim that she is very happy while living in abomination gives rise to suspicion that she was not saved to begin with. If the Holy Spirit is truly living inside of her, as He is with every Christian, then she should be experiencing conviction over these sins.

However, since she is a professing Christian, and since she does attend church (at times), the the Bible does have a remedy for this kind of problem.

Jesus taught in Matthew 18: 15-17 that the church must discipline a believer who is living in continual sin while in their midst. The process starts with a private confrontation with the sinning person, and, if there is no progress, gradually progresses to the point wher ultimately the church leadership must be involved. If the problem is not corrected at this level, then the sinning person must be excommunicated from the fellowship until they do repent. Jesus said that when it reaches the point when they refuse to listen to the church, then they can be regarded as an unbeliever. The apostle Paul also used this practice in 1 Corinthians 5:1-13, when he ultimately commands to "remove the wicked man from among yourselves."

If this person is a true Christian, then this process should bring them to repentance. If they do not, then the church is better off without them. The apostle Paul wrote that "a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough," i.e., a little bit of sin that is tolerated will ultimately produce an adverse effect on everyone.

Jacob, I understand what you are saying, but throwing her out of the church would not help. It only takes one time, that something is said, by the pastor, or another member of the church and she may feel convicted and turn to God.

Throwing un-believers out of the church is not a good ideal. If everyone knows she is having problems, then I think even more should be praying for her, and trying to help.

She is still young, and who knows she may one day remember all the love that she received from her church and her Christian friends and this may help her to accept the Lord.

Coming to the Lord, I feel, is not really our timing of it, but the Lords timing. He calls us when we are ready!!:):

[cindyw]

Originally posted by Jacob
Jesus taught in Matthew 18: 15-17 that the church must discipline a believer who is living in continual sin while in their midst. The process starts with a private confrontation with the sinning person, and, if there is no progress, gradually progresses to the point wher ultimately the church leadership must be involved. If the problem is not corrected at this level, then the sinning person must be excommunicated from the fellowship until they do repent. Jesus said that when it reaches the point when they refuse to listen to the church, then they can be regarded as an unbeliever. The apostle Paul also used this practice in 1 Corinthians 5:1-13, when he ultimately commands to "remove the wicked man from among yourselves."

If this person is a true Christian, then this process should bring them to repentance. If they do not, then the church is better off without them. The apostle Paul wrote that "a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough," i.e., a little bit of sin that is tolerated will ultimately produce an adverse effect on everyone.

I COMPLETELY agree Jacob. If she were NOT a confessed believer, it would be a whole nother story. Unfortunately, many try to treat confessed believers like unbelievers------not wanting to confront sin and "letting the Holy Spirit be the Holy Spirit". Unfortunately, that is not what scripture tells us to do. Scripture commands that there be confrontation in a spirit of love and with a desire to restore that person. If that confessed believer refuses to repent after being quietly rebuked, then publically rebuked, they are to be cast out of the congregation-----period.

This "casting out" some people think is MEAN, but that is NOT God's intentions.........It is His intention that sin be shown as unacceptable within His Body and it is His intention by the casting away from the Body, the person is brought to repentance. Scripture clearly teaches that allowing UNREPENTANT KNOWN sin to remain in the congregation WILL cause evil influence on the rest of the Body.............the present state of the Church is evidence of this truth. JMHO. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by annie10
Jacob, I understand what you are saying, but throwing her out of the church would not help. It only takes one time, that something is said, by the pastor, or another member of the church and she may feel convicted and turn to God.

Throwing un-believers out of the church is not a good ideal. If everyone knows she is having problems, then I think even more should be praying for her, and trying to help.

She is still young, and who knows she may one day remember all the love that she received from her church and her Christian friends and this may help her to accept the Lord.

Coming to the Lord, I feel, is not really our timing of it, but the Lords timing. He calls us when we are ready!!:):

Be patient with me while I try to sort this out...

First off, it doesnt seem to me that your friends profession of faith was sincere. Part of accepting Christ's free gift of salvation is to have a repentent heart. If there is no sign of repentance at all, then it seems clear that she is not saved. In fact, you indicate that she very quickly went the other way... which is disobedience to God.

Scripture says:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Your friend fits right in the middle of this description.

Scripture also says:

Romans 2:5-10
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

(this verse is in reference to those who live a lifestyle of sin and rebellion... and not believers who sin and repent sincerely)

Jesus also said:

John 14:24
"He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me."

So we have settled this... your friend's profession of faith in Jesus Christ was not sincere, and we can see this in the lifestyle that she has chosen. If she had served the Lord, and there was fruits of obedience evidenced in her life... and then walked away... we could debate the issue further. However, since all evidence seems to indicate no change in her life... then saying a quick prayer did nothing for her.

Moving on... swearing on a Bible. Since she is not saved, we can expect nothing different from her.

1 Corintians 5:12-13a
For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges...

Moving on... how to deal w/her in the church.

Scripture says:

1 Corinthians 5:9-10
I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this worldor with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.

Paul is clearly making a distinction between saved and unsaved.

Paul goes on to say:

1 Corinthians 5:11
But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother (or in this case... a sister), who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person.

So if she is coming to church and claiming to be a "sister", and playing the part... then scripture demands that she be put out. Why?

1 Corinthians 5:4-5
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

In your effort to rationalize why she shouldnt be put out, stop and think about the influence she may have on the people in your church... especially the youth.

Paul also said:

1 Corinthians 5:6b-7
...Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.

It's never an easy decision to put someone out of a fellowship, but it what scripture demands... whether we understand it or not. And not understanding a why a command is given in the Bible is never an excuse to disobey it. I was a Marine. I learned early on to never question a command, even tho the majority of them never made any sense to me. But I also was not privvy to the big picture. A Marine's disobedience to a command could get people killed.... and the same thing can happen in a spiritual sense when we choose not to obey a scriptural command because we cant rationalize it in our heads why we should.

And frankly, this command is not hard to understand. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. If the church allows a person who is calling themselves a believer to attend and participate in it's functions and activities... then they are appearing to be accepting of their behavior. Believe it or not, people then become numb to the sin... and eventually people may be persuaded that they too can participate in that sin and still be involved in the church.

Now having said that... let me say this!

If your friend can be honest and admit that she is not a true believer, but is seeking the truth... and stops "pretending" or "playing church"... then she should be allowed to attend in order that she will hear the truth. She should not be asked to remove herself under those circumstances anymore than would a non-believer who comes in off the street. The church should always be open to sinners.

The church should never appear to be accepting of sinful and immoral behavior for any reason what so ever.

But not people playing church who are living sinful lifestyles. Church discipline is real and extremely scriptural... and is not practiced nearly enough these days. And thats why the church in America is in the moral state that it's in.

I hope this helps.

I will pray for your friend.

[Jacob]

Originally posted by annie10
Jacob, I understand what you are saying, but throwing her out of the church would not help. It only takes one time, that something is said, by the pastor, or another member of the church and she may feel convicted and turn to God.

Throwing un-believers out of the church is not a good ideal. If everyone knows she is having problems, then I think even more should be praying for her, and trying to help.

She is still young, and who knows she may one day remember all the love that she received from her church and her Christian friends and this may help her to accept the Lord.

Coming to the Lord, I feel, is not really our timing of it, but the Lords timing. He calls us when we are ready!!:):

Greetings! :wave
My previous post was based upon the passages in Matthew 18:15-17 and 1 Corinthians 5. In both passages, God instructs us to follow a process of church discipline to "clean out the olc leaven (sin) that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened." (1 Cor 5). In essence, Paul is stating that believers should remove people from the fellowship who are living in obvious and unrepentant sin to avoid having that sin infect and spread throughout the church. The process is not a unilateral expulsion from church fellowship right from the start. It begins, as you pointed out that it should, with one-on-one private confrontation, and progresses up to excommunication if there is no repentance.

It does not seem like a popular move to make, especially if we want to see that person repent. However, we must learn to take God at His word. God knows that such unrepentant people in the church, especially if they call themselves Christians, can become a hinderance to the Body of Christ, and actually lead others into sin.

In Matthew 18, in the passages prior to the ones dealing with the process of church discipline, Jesus said it would be better for a person to be drowned than to lead one of his "little ones" into sin.

[Jacob]

Originally posted by cindyw
I COMPLETELY agree Jacob. If she were NOT a confessed believer, it would be a whole nother story. Unfortunately, many try to treat confessed believers like unbelievers------not wanting to confront sin and "letting the Holy Spirit be the Holy Spirit". Unfortunately, that is not what scripture tells us to do. Scripture commands that there be confrontation in a spirit of love and with a desire to restore that person. If that confessed believer refuses to repent after being quietly rebuked, then publically rebuked, they are to be cast out of the congregation-----period.

This "casting out" some people think is MEAN, but that is NOT God's intentions.........It is His intention that sin be shown as unacceptable within His Body and it is His intention by the casting away from the Body, the person is brought to repentance. Scripture clearly teaches that allowing UNREPENTANT KNOWN sin to remain in the congregation WILL cause evil influence on the rest of the Body.............the present state of the Church is evidence of this truth. JMHO. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

Cindy: thank you for your support and comments. :thumb

[Jael]

I whole-heartedly agree with Jacob and Cindy and Krispy....I especially like Krispy's addendum, that if your friend can be brought to admit that she is not truly saved, THEN you can treat her as an unbeliever among you. But as long as she is professing to be saved, she is subject to church discipline. It's tempting to feel that it is just too harsh to remove someone from fellowship...but since that is exactly what God tells us to do, choosing to ignore that directive in the Bible is substituting our judgement for God's. We can never be more loving and merciful than He is...if He says that we are to remove that person, then that is the most loving and merciful thing we can do (as long as our spirit and motives are right is doing it) and we should obey Him.

[sunshine4jesus]

One more reason we should pray for our pastors and our churches.
Tough love is a difficult task for any of us. But a pastor who is Bible based and has the H.S. to lead him, may actually be able to lead this young woman to start living for Jesus. He may be able to make her understand that living for Jesus involves denying self and the world.
Bless you for caring.