Catholics Are Not Apostates

[tofu]

I was just thinking. There are many problems with Catholicism, including the focus on works alone, being a "good person" versus salvation by grace, and the Pope saying Mary is co-equal with Jesus. These are errors.

However, I have known some very evangelical and godly Catholics. Just the other day I saw a Catholic woman on TV upholding the Biblical view of marriage and family. Many Catholics disagree with homosexuality, and most are against abortion.

I myself am not Catholic, but I grew up so. Unfortunately I was never taught to accept Jesus as my Savior, or that true repentance in the Biblical sense was necessary for salvation. I went through Sunday School, Confirmation, etc. And I disagree with their stance on infant baptism.

The funny thing is, when I look at the apostasy coming into our mainline Christian churches these days, I realize that there are saved Christians and lost Christians in all denominations. There are some strong Baptist churches where some are saved, and some aren't. Some Episcipal Churches have saved members, and some are unsaved. Some preach the Gospel, and some don't.

Much ire has been leveraged against the Catholic church, and I just think that perhaps it's time we reevaluate it.

One more thing - the most talked about movie on this board right now has been written and directed by a Catholic - Mel Gibson of course.

[RyanfromNE]

:thumb

[Jennie in TO]

God has a remnant in all denominations. Bottom line.

BUT Catholicism as an institution and as a doctrine has some serious issues with heresy.

[Becky]

That is true, Jennie.

Anyone who accepts Christ as their Savior is part of THE Church. Anyone abandoning Christianity are "apostate".

Let's move this to Christian Chat for better coverage. If there is another forum you would rather have it in, let me know. :):

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by Jennie in TO
God has a remnant in all denominations. Bottom line. :nod


Originally posted by Jennie in TO
BUT Catholicism as an institution and as a doctrine has some serious issues with heresy. You could say the same for most any denomonation, some more than others.

[tofu]

Originally posted by Becky
That is true, Jennie.

Anyone who accepts Christ as their Savior is part of THE Church. Anyone abandoning Christianity are "apostate".

Let's move this to Christian Chat for better coverage. If there is another forum you would rather have it in, let me know. :): Sounds good to me! Thanks Becky - have a great day!! :): :):

Jennie - I agree. I just wonder how many Catholics really believe the bad teachings put forth from time to time by the Catholic Hierarchy in Rome. They make these bad doctrinal choices, like calling Mary Co-Redemptrix. But if you went up to the average Catholic, would he/she communicate this false teaching as their own personal belief?

[kerri]

I agree- some catholics DO have a personal relationship with Jesus and are saved (many are just pew warmers like there are many pew warmers in other church denoms as well).

God looks on the heart- I always feel like- there is a difference between MISbelief and DISbelief...

so if someone knows in their heart that the only reason they are saved or can stand before the Father is because Jesus died for them- then all else is just MISbelief, IMO.

As a whole though- I do think many RCC beliefs (that stem from post-apostolic tradition) are dangerous, because many of those very beliefs are a stumbling block that inhibits many people from having a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ (like the Mary doctrines).

Personally- I know plenty of catholics- most of my extended family are catholic.... and while most of them are just pew warmers (they don't want to ever talk about Jesus :(:) or holiday church-goers (they just go on Christmas and Easter)... I DO know some catholics who are definitely saved (they really love the Lord with all of their hearts).

I think that in these end times- God will be drawing His own out from all denominations that seperate us, and as the churches themselves become more apostate- we will be seeing more and more true Christians leaving said churches....

as far as those true christians withing the RCC- From what I've read of the beliefs of those in line to be the next pope, I have a feeling the next pope will be blantantly apostate, and will be accepting of abortion and homosexuality, like we are seeing in many other denoms... I think God will uise this to seperate the wheat from the chaff within that church- like we are seeing in those other churches who have accepted that and have become apostate.

I think the 2nd and 3rd chapters in Revelation are proof that their are some true christians within all the so-called Christian churches- but God Himself tells them to repent and overcome until He comes.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by tofu
I was just thinking. There are many problems with Catholicism, including the focus on works alone, being a "good person" versus salvation by grace, and the Pope saying Mary is co-equal with Jesus. These are errors.

They are more than errors. Any Catholic who holds to these beliefs is not saved. Any Catholic who holds to salvation by faith in Jesus Christ is saved, and not truly a Catholic. Actually, their own church calls them cursed.

Originally posted by tofu
However, I have known some very evangelical and godly Catholics. Just the other day I saw a Catholic woman on TV upholding the Biblical view of marriage and family. Many Catholics disagree with homosexuality, and most are against abortion.

So do most JW's, Mormons, Buddists, etc etc... doing and supporting morality does not make one "godly".

The Catholic Church is not just another denomination... and those who think it is are incorrect in saying so. It is another religion. The Catholic Church does not consider itself a denomination!

A Bible believing born again Christian can have no spiritual unity with the Catholic Church... you know what Paul said about a little leaven...

[kerri]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
They are more than errors. Any Catholic who holds to these beliefs is not saved. Any Catholic who holds to salvation by faith in Jesus Christ is saved, and not truly a Catholic. Actually, their own church calls them cursed.

So do most JW's, Mormons, Buddists, etc etc... doing and supporting morality does not make one "godly".

God sees hearts... He knows who accepts Jesus as their pesonal savior and who doesn't.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by kerri
God sees hearts... He knows who accepts Jesus as their pesonal savior and who doesn't.

If you believe in anything other than salvation by the atoning work of Christ... then you are not saved.

Gee whiz people... it's in the Bible.

[kerri]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
If you believe in anything other than salvation by the atoning work of Christ... then you are not saved.

Gee whiz people... it's in the Bible.

I know what's in the Bible ;):

And I also know that if someone believes in their heart and confess with their mouths that Jesus Christ is their Lord... then they are saved.

That's why I said- God knows whats within our hearts and He knows who just gives lip service- and who has a saving knowledge of Christ in their hearts.

We can judge fruits- this is true- but He is the only one qualified to judge hearts.

[RJs here]

I'm sorry ~in a great big hurry right now & don't have time to look at all the threads.

But had to give a big hearty THUMB'S UP to THIS ONE!!

Originally posted by Jennie in TO
God has a remnant in all denominations. Bottom line.

BUT Catholicism as an institution and as a doctrine has some serious issues with heresy.

:thumb

[Elizabeth_S]

Originally posted by Jennie in TO
God has a remnant in all denominations. Bottom line.

BUT Catholicism as an institution and as a doctrine has some serious issues with heresy.

Yes, God does have a remnant in all denominations. But Catholics are tought they are the teachings and they cannot be separated form the teachings.

I had this discussion in Apolo just a couple of days ago. It is a very deep ingrained teaching.

It is sad, cause those in the RCC will close their ears and eyes, rather than see the differences between Catholicism and the Bible.

But we can all be that way in many things, but to be this way in not knowing salvation, the consequences are sadly eternal.

[Charity4Ever]

:clap :nod

I'm so glad you've said this. I've noticed there has been a LOT of Catholic bashing of late. It's good to question things, but some of the comments in and tones of some of these threads lately made me cry.

Originally posted by tofu
However, I have known some very evangelical and godly Catholics. Just the other day I saw a Catholic woman on TV upholding the Biblical view of marriage and family. Many Catholics disagree with homosexuality, and most are against abortion.


My dad and I are two.

[KrispyKritter]

Two observations:

1) Ignorance of the RCC's teachings runs amuck on this thread. :nod

2) Not many on this thread care. :tsk

3) This is going to be a silly thread based on people's emotions and "feelings" about people, and not based on the Word. :tsk

4) I wont be a part of something like that... which should make most of you happy. ;):

Why doesnt everyone study what the RCC actually teaches, and then converse about it? :confused

By the way, I dont doubt there are true believers in the Catholic Church. BUT ... if they truly believe the Word, then there is no way they can continue to partake in the practices, teachings, rituals and beliefs in the RCC. To do so is to go against the Word of God. Therefore, true believers in the RCC will find their way out of that false religion and follow the Word of God. :thumb

I have yet to see anyone say "there is a remnant in the JW's" or "there is a remnant in the Mormons" .... why does everyone think there is a remnant in the biggest false "Christian" religion the world has ever know? As I said, true believers in the RCC will find their way out... they can longer practice the blasphemous rituals of the RCC... therefore, they are not a "remnent". A remnent does leave.

[Elizabeth_S]

Originally posted by Charity4Ever
:clap :nod

I'm so glad you've said this. I've noticed there has been a LOT of Catholic bashing of late. It's good to question things, but some of the comments in and tones of some of these threads lately made me cry.



My dad and I are two.

Charity, please show us which catholics we bash, or do you think, just maybe, we refute the teachings?

No one seems to have a problem when we refute the teachings of Mormons, Branch Davidians and such.

Yet the RCC teachings are off limits? Why?

The RCC teaches 2 gospels and completely waters down the gospel of Jesus. The RCC rule book (CCC) shows Mary to be like Jesus (the rCC, no matter how they deny it, deifies Mary of the RCC) and then states it is just Jesus.

That is confusion and God is not the author of confusion.

I have yet to see anyone say "there is a remnant in the JW's" or "there is a remnant in the Mormons" .... why does everyone think there is a remnant in the biggest false "Christian" religion the world has ever know? As I said, true believers in the RCC will find their way out... they can longer practice the blasphemous rituals of the RCC... therefore, they are not a "remnent". A remnent does leave.
No one said that there are remnants in cults. But I have talked to Catholics who truly know Jesus. And they learned about Jesus form minsters in the RCC who know Jesus.

It is the Institution itself, that is intermingled so deeply into their culture, that is false teachings and many teachers.

Krispy,
The one thing I do want to know, just like you, is how those who are truly saved, know Jesus can stay in the false teachings after knowing they are there.

No one is perfect, and some do stay to try to change the RCC from within. It is a losing proposition, but they want to try.

To me, it is the same thing as staying in a country that literally kills Christians for their beliefs (Sudan). We ask why they stay, knowing the evil is there, and they ask, why leave the lost to evil?

Help those lost to false teachings.

Those cAtholics who come here to debate, are not here to debate, they are trolling for converts. They are self appointed defenders of the false teachings of the RCC. They do not listen to one word we post, they have hardened their hearts to truth. What we post here is to the lurkers, so they can see the falseness of the RCC.

[rsh]

I would like to say I read this site every day. I'm a Catholic and I don't know where everyone on this board gets their information but it is not correct. I'm from a small town and the Catholic church I attend does not teach us to pray to Mary. Second we do believe the only way to heaven is thru Jesus Christ. He died and suffered for our sins. We believe in the bible. Our teachings and Homilys on Sundays come from the bible. We do not pray to Saints in church or to Mary and are not taught to do so. Just because we are Catholics we are not going to end up in hell or be left behind. It is what is in our hearts that is going to get us to heaven and the beleif that Jesus died for us. I just had to get this off my chest because people on this board seem to think are Catholics are doomed and I'm sorry to tell you but that is not the case.

[kerri]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Two observations:

1) Ignorance of the RCC's teachings runs amuck on this thread. :nod

2) Not many on this thread care. :tsk

3) This is going to be a silly thread based on people's emotions and "feelings" about people, and not based on the Word. :tsk

4) I wont be a part of something like that... which should make most of you happy. ;):

Why doesnt everyone study what the RCC actually teaches, and then converse about it? :confused

By the way, I dont doubt there are true believers in the Catholic Church. BUT ... if they truly believe the Word, then there is no way they can continue to partake in the practices, teachings, rituals and beliefs in the RCC. To do so is to go against the Word of God. Therefore, true believers in the RCC will find their way out of that false religion and follow the Word of God. :thumb

I have yet to see anyone say "there is a remnant in the JW's" or "there is a remnant in the Mormons" .... why does everyone think there is a remnant in the biggest false "Christian" religion the world has ever know? As I said, true believers in the RCC will find their way out... they can longer practice the blasphemous rituals of the RCC... therefore, they are not a "remnent". A remnent does leave.

a few questions:

1) I'm wondering how you know people on this thread are ignorant of RCC teachings....

2) How do you know not many on this thread care? (I actually got the opposite impression)

3) How do you know this is going to be a thread based purely on emotion? (I thought I referred to Revelation 2 and 3 to back up my statements about the remnant in churches- so, I personally am not speaking from just "emotion")

We are called to judge fruits- God is the one who judges hearts... so if I see a catholic who has good fruit and the Spirit testifies that they are saved- in spite of the erroneous teachings of the RCC- then I feel that I have no problem calling them my brothers and sisters in Christ- because that is what they are.

Let's face some facts: when we get to heaven and discover the fullness of Truth, I am sure that we will ALL discover that we held certain beliefs that were wrong.

Wrong beliefs can be worked through in the perfect timing of the Holy Spirit... all of us are always learning and growing in the knowledge of Him.

But what matters most and is the oNLY thing that matters when one comes before the judgement seat is that they had a personal heart knowledge of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

God knows hearts- He knows if Mary is the Lord of their heart or if Jesus is....

and as for me....as long as someone displays good fruit in keeping with Jesus being their Lord and Savior- then I will call them my brother and my sister. :):

btw- many of us on this board used to be catholic- so we have a definitive knowledge of what the RCC teaches :):


edit to add: I have no problem attacking the heretical teachings of the RCC- and have felt called to do that quite often (because of having been a part of that church)... On this thread, however, I am talking strictly about those whom my spirit has testified to me that they are brothers and sisters in Christ- despite their MISbeliefs in other areas.

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by kerri
btw- many of us on this board used to be catholic- so we have a definitive knowledge of what the RCC teaches :):. If you truely understood the Catholic church, you would not have left it. :wave

[kerri]

Originally posted by rsh
I would like to say I read this site every day. I'm a Catholic and I don't know where everyone on this board gets their information but it is not correct. I'm from a small town and the Catholic church I attend does not teach us to pray to Mary. Second we do believe the only way to heaven is thru Jesus Christ. He died and suffered for our sins. We believe in the bible. Our teachings and Homilys on Sundays come from the bible. We do not pray to Saints in church or to Mary and are not taught to do so. Just because we are Catholics we are not going to end up in hell or be left behind. It is what is in our hearts that is going to get us to heaven and the beleif that Jesus died for us. I just had to get this off my chest because people on this board seem to think are Catholics are doomed and I'm sorry to tell you but that is not the case.

I agree with you- I know some catholics who don't feel comfortable praying to Mary and the saints- and who love Jesus with all their hearts :):

and to those who think that what rsh said isn't true- I just want you to know that my mother got saved in a catholic service when she was in her 20s or early 30s (now she had been a catholic her whole life but had never heard that true gospel preached until that day when she heard a priest saying that if you are depending on anything but Jesus to get to heaven- you will not enter in- she went home- started reading her Bible- and she got it- after all those years- and she repented of her sins and gave her life to the Lord).

so it IS true- God has a remnant in most churches- and I believe sometimes they are called to remain there to spread the Truth and light in an what can be an otherwise empty place.

[kerri]

Originally posted by Hootmon
If you truely understood the Catholic church, you would not have left it. :wave

:laugh- Oh- I know- I've heard that one a thousand times- that doesn't make it right the first or the millioneth time they say it though :P:

[Charity4Ever]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Elizabeth_S
Charity, please show us which catholics we bash, or do you think, just maybe, we refute the teachings?

There's refuting the teachings with love, respecting them, understanding them, stepping into their shoes, working with them, and doing so in a cooperative positive light, based on a logical, reasonable method.

Then there's refuting the teachings with an attitude that the Catholic is TOTALLY misguided and and a bad Christian and % WRONG in what they think, and that they are ALL decieved and there is no hope for the Church, and with a superior attitude that slams the doctrine reminiscent of the Reformation with both Catholics and Protestants excommunicating each other.

The first method is a good method to clear up some of the errors, most Catholics have no clue what they are doing and any contradictions. It has helped me with a lot of confusion and Scriptural understanding.

The second method just turns people away.

This runs on a continuum. Some head towards the first, some the second, nearly all in the middle. It seems to me lately (although I'm not good at judging these things) that the second method is flaring lately.

[Jennie in TO]

I guess I judge the Catholic church on it official policies, and more importanly its official doctrine contained in the catechism. Yes, I have read much of the catechism. I find a great deal of Biblical error in it. That is why I would say that the Catholic church is not a Biblically Christian institution. Martin Luther thought the same thing, so historically speaking, I have a good basis for what I believe.

Having said that, I belonged to the Anglican church when I was first saved. Doctrinally, the Articles of the Faith, are right on. In practice, much of the institution isn't believing in Christ actively as their saviour. Both of these Christian denominations are similar in that many of their participants are woefully ignorant of their theology. Unfortunately, this observation can be applied equally to many Protestant denominations. Having acknowleged this fact, I think we can safely say that there are many who are truly saved by faith and through grace alone in many denominations who remain totally ignorant of other theology, or choose to believe what they want to believe in spite of their denomination's stance on any given subject.

That is to say, in short, there is a remnant, sometimes unbelievably, in many denominations.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by rsh
I would like to say I read this site every day. I'm a Catholic and I don't know where everyone on this board gets their information but it is not correct. I'm from a small town and the Catholic church I attend does not teach us to pray to Mary. Second we do believe the only way to heaven is thru Jesus Christ. He died and suffered for our sins. We believe in the bible. Our teachings and Homilys on Sundays come from the bible. We do not pray to Saints in church or to Mary and are not taught to do so. Just because we are Catholics we are not going to end up in hell or be left behind. It is what is in our hearts that is going to get us to heaven and the beleif that Jesus died for us. I just had to get this off my chest because people on this board seem to think are Catholics are doomed and I'm sorry to tell you but that is not the case.

I get my information from the Catachism, and from sources such as Vatican II, papal writings and edicts, and from my own experiences with friends of mine who are Catholic.

If your church teaches what you say it teaches, and strays from Rome in the areas that you say it does (and I have no reason to doubt you) ... then the Roman Catholic Church considers your church to be cursed (anathema). Your church is not teaching Catholic doctrine, therefore, as far as Rome is concerned, you're not a part of it.

By the way, I'm not condemning anyone to hell. Is someone who holds to Mormon doctrine gonna end up in hell? They sure are. Is someone who is holding to the JW doctrine gonna end up in hell? They sure are. Is someone who holds to the teachings of Rome for their salvation gonna end up in hell? They sure are.

Do I take pleasure in that, as it seems you think I do? Absolutely not! And that, my friend, is why I am so very opposed to the RCC, and will always speak out against it... not to condemn someone, but to perhaps turn someone away from it, and toward God.

Thats called LOVE.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by kerri
a few questions:

1) I'm wondering how you know people on this thread are ignorant of RCC teachings....

2) How do you know not many on this thread care? (I actually got the opposite impression)

3) How do you know this is going to be a thread based purely on emotion? (I thought I referred to Revelation 2 and 3 to back up my statements about the remnant in churches- so, I personally am not speaking from just "emotion")

We are called to judge fruits- God is the one who judges hearts... so if I see a catholic who has good fruit and the Spirit testifies that they are saved- in spite of the erroneous teachings of the RCC- then I feel that I have no problem calling them my brothers and sisters in Christ- because that is what they are.

Let's face some facts: when we get to heaven and discover the fullness of Truth, I am sure that we will ALL discover that we held certain beliefs that were wrong.

Wrong beliefs can be worked through in the perfect timing of the Holy Spirit... all of us are always learning and growing in the knowledge of Him.

But what matters most and is the oNLY thing that matters when one comes before the judgement seat is that they had a personal heart knowledge of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

God knows hearts- He knows if Mary is the Lord of their heart or if Jesus is....

and as for me....as long as someone displays good fruit in keeping with Jesus being their Lord and Savior- then I will call them my brother and my sister. :):

btw- many of us on this board used to be catholic- so we have a definitive knowledge of what the RCC teaches :):


edit to add: I have no problem attacking the heretical teachings of the RCC- and have felt called to do that quite often (because of having been a part of that church)... On this thread, however, I am talking strictly about those whom my spirit has testified to me that they are brothers and sisters in Christ- despite their MISbeliefs in other areas.

I dont mean any disrespect, and please dont take it that way... but I was gonna do a line-item refute to this post... but the more I read the more I realized you answered all your questions with your own words.

The RCC does not teach Biblical salvation. The mass is blasphemous before God. If you dont know this, then you dont know much about the RCC.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by kerri
:laugh- Oh- I know- I've heard that one a thousand times- that doesn't make it right the first or the millioneth time they say it though :P:

Everyone likes to laugh when someone says "if a Catholic gets saved, they will eventually leave the RCC" ...

Ok everyone... get out your scissors. Open to Romans 16:17 and start cutting it out.

By the way... the verse says:

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine (that would be promoters of false doctrines... such as the Catholic Church!) which ye have learned; and avoid them.

It doesn't get much plainer than that. Catholics who accept salvation will eventually (after they have grown some in the Lord) will be led out of that false religion.

PS: It is common today for people to rip up Romans 16:17 and leave of the part that says "contrary to the doctrine" ... and make it look like Paul is say to mark and avoid those who cause divisions and offenses ... thats not what Paul was saying at all. Paul had a lot to say about false teachers. It doesnt seem to matter to a lot Christians... and it will be to their folly, I'm afraid. I wish it wasnt so.

[Joshua's Gen]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
If you dont know this, then you dont know much about the RCC.

As a bystander, I have to say this is one of the most inaccurate statements.

I've seen her (and her sister Chris4Christ) refute RCC teachings time and time again in apolo.
It's all I thought she did for awhile there. :laugh

:):

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by Joshua's Gen
As a bystander, I have to say this is one of the most inaccurate statements.

I've seen her (and her sister Chris4Christ) refute RCC teachings time and time again in apolo.
It's all I thought she did for awhile there. :laugh

:):

Thats not the impression I'm getting here... am I missing something?

[KrispyKritter]

If the point of this thread is to say that there are those who have found salvation, who happen to be Catholic... then yes, I agree.

Did the RCC teach them this salvation by faith alone? No, it did not, in fact it teaches against it.

Can these believers remain part of a institution that incorporates rituals and rites that are nothing short of blasphemy? I don't see how one could. (It's that sticky verse in Romans again!)

Should we join hands with the RCC and sing Kumbya around the campfire, and say we are one in Christ? Absolutely not!

Is an individual Catholic who has found salvation my brother or sister... of course they are. But that wont stop me from encouraging them to leave the RCC and get to a place where they can grow and learn to walk w/God in truth.

If this is what folks on this thread believe, then we agree.

[Elizabeth_S]

Originally posted by Charity4Ever
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Elizabeth_S
Charity, please show us which catholics we bash, or do you think, just maybe, we refute the teachings?

There's refuting the teachings with love, respecting them, understanding them, stepping into their shoes, working with them, and doing so in a cooperative positive light, based on a logical, reasonable method.

Then there's refuting the teachings with an attitude that the Catholic is TOTALLY misguided and and a bad Christian and % WRONG in what they think, and that they are ALL decieved and there is no hope for the Church, and with a superior attitude that slams the doctrine reminiscent of the Reformation with both Catholics and Protestants excommunicating each other.

The first method is a good method to clear up some of the errors, most Catholics have no clue what they are doing and any contradictions. It has helped me with a lot of confusion and Scriptural understanding.

The second method just turns people away.

This runs on a continuum. Some head towards the first, some the second, nearly all in the middle. It seems to me lately (although I'm not good at judging these things) that the second method is flaring lately.

I am not giving you a hard time, be we see that it is still the teachings that we are against Charity. :):

As has been said here before......it is hard to tell what people are trying to convey in this format.

but the one thing that is guarenteed to happen, it you tell someone, catholic, mormon, or even a WOF something is in error, then they get all excited and start turning nasty and accuse everyone of hating them. Hater is always the first attack, and then the message is lost on the poster, but not the lurker.

If people hated those in false doctrines and teachings, everyone would let others wallow in false teachings.

And that is not biblical. We are to expose those teachings.

But until those who are being shown truth, (no matter who it is, catholic, WOF, mormon or even your average christian joe), hear the truth, there is not going to be good feelings.

And those who feel their beliefs are correct, even when shown to be false,a re the ones screaming hater. dialog stops and all is lost.

We can all only try to stay on the biblical and straight and narrow path. Jesus said it would not be easy.

I have not seen bashing of Catholics, nor Mormons or whatever, just the biblical debunking of false teachings and the teachings being attacked.

That is all.

[Elizabeth_S]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
If the point of this thread is to say that there are those who have found salvation, who happen to be Catholic... then yes, I agree.

Did the RCC teach them this salvation by faith alone? No, it did not, in fact it teaches against it.
Exactly

Can these believers remain part of a institution that incorporates rituals and rites that are nothing short of blasphemy? I don't see how one could. (It's that sticky verse in Romans again!)
I don't see how they could stay, but some try to fix the RCC from the inside out, not saying it is right, but that is their reasoning

Should we join hands with the RCC and sing Kumbya around the campfire, and say we are one in Christ? Absolutely not!
Not Ever

If this is what folks on this thread believe, then we agree.

Yes the RCC teahces salvation by works, but some still do read their bibles and "get it". And it is the RCC, the institution, not the people, that are wrong in what they do.

[Jennie in TO]

I hope we are attacking the doctrine, and not the people. :nod

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by Elizabeth_S
If people hated those in false doctrines and teachings, everyone would let others wallow in false teachings.

Thank you... if I hated Catholics ... mum would be the word! "Go to hell for all I care!" would be on my lips.

But because I care, I cant be silent. I must speak out because I know the truth, and the truth has set me free.

I dont want anyone to go to hell... and the truth is a hard pill to swallow sometimes.

I love my kids, but at times they need to be corrected. THey dont like it, and there may be times they get mad at me... but what kind of a father would I be if I let them continue down a path of destruction?

[kerri]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
I dont mean any disrespect, and please dont take it that way... but I was gonna do a line-item refute to this post... but the more I read the more I realized you answered all your questions with your own words.

The RCC does not teach Biblical salvation. The mass is blasphemous before God. If you dont know this, then you dont know much about the RCC.

Well- we already established that I know a lot about the RCC (since I was a member at one point AND I reference the catechism a lot when debating against the RCC erroneous teachings).... were you a catholic at any point- just curious?

If you choose to do a line by line refute of my post- please, by all means do... because you are clearly misunderstanding me if you think I don't know exactly what the RCC teaches and that there are still some saved members among its ranks.

I'm not sure how I could have answered my own questions within my post- as my questions were directed at you- and the followup comments I made were to show, based on my personal experiences, why I think that Biblically, there ARE those who remain within the ranks of the RCC (for whatever reason) that are indeed saved.

You'll never hear me say that the RCC doesn't have erroneous beliefs- I know they do and have felt called to point them out when the topic surfaces (perhaps you haven't seen my postings in apolo that refute certain RCC teachings? :confused)....

However- if you re-read the rest of my previous posts in this thread, you will see that I believe a difference lies between MISbelief and DISbelief.... and that difference is a matter of the heart... you can tell when someone's heart is devoted to Jesus above all else... and yes there are still some within the RCC that exhibit fruits of having a saving heart knowledge of Jesus Christ.

And by sweepingly condemning all catholics to hell simply because of the name (or denomination) they call themselves (which is what I think your posts are suggesting :confused)- then you seem to hold to a similar and erroneous outlook on what makes someone a christian, and who has the right to judge that, as the RCC does....

They think they can judge hearts (thinking they have the right to condemn people to hell based on non-salvation issues instead of what's in the person's heart)- and by your posts- it seems that you do too....

For you to judge the salvation of these people within the church, beased purely on the fact that they still call themselves catholics, then, you too have placed yourself in a position to judge hearts (not just fruits).

I disagree with doing that- I just don't think we have that right.

Now if you want to condemn certain teachings themselves by backing it up with Scriptural proofs- then that's great- I'm all for that :nod ...

but don't personally condemn someone who has every sign of having a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ to hell simply because they still call themselves a catholic christian.

Can't you see this is exactly what the RCC catechism does to those who understand their teachings and still choose not to be part of their church?

It's the same thing. They have no right to do that- and neither do you or me.

As I said- God is the judge of who their hearts belong to.

[kerri]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
If the point of this thread is to say that there are those who have found salvation, who happen to be Catholic... then yes, I agree.


That is the point of this thread :nod

I didnt see this when I just made my last post- so now I at least see that your previous posts were just based on a misunderstanding of what the thread was about :):

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by kerri
That is the point of this thread :nod

I didnt see this when I just made my last post- so now I at least see that your previous posts were just based on a misunderstanding of what the thread was about :):

Exactly... I get concerned when I see ecumenism raise it's ugly head. We can not join hands w/the RCC in spiritual unity, it's completely impossible. However, you see a trend today where uninformed beleivers think of the RCC as just another denomination... and it isnt. I felt I saw this happening in this thread, and I may have misunderstood, and responded accordingly.

We have a Catholic family that we are close friends with. They were at our house for the SuperBowl (GO PANTHERS)... but we dont have spiritual fellowship with each other. We cant. They are hardcore Catholic, and think we're gonna spending a long time in purgatory.

I will fellowship w/ a Catholic who is saved. No problem. But they can be assured I will not shy away from my thoughts on why they should leave the RCC.

In love, of course. :thumb

[kerri]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Exactly... I get concerned when I see ecumenism raise it's ugly head. We can not join hands w/the RCC in spiritual unity, it's completely impossible. However, you see a trend today where uninformed beleivers think of the RCC as just another denomination... and it isnt. I felt I saw this happening in this thread, and I may have misunderstood, and responded accordingly.

We have a Catholic family that we are close friends with. They were at our house for the SuperBowl (GO PANTHERS)... but we dont have spiritual fellowship with each other. We cant. They are hardcore Catholic, and think we're gonna spending a long time in purgatory.

I will fellowship w/ a Catholic who is saved. No problem. But they can be assured I will not shy away from my thoughts on why they should leave the RCC.

In love, of course. :thumb

Then we agree :):

I have no time for ecumenism which sacrifices truth for the sake of the appearence of unity..... in its heart, I believe ecumenism is just about physical appearences anyway.

True spiritual unity is only found within Christ- and those within the Body are already united in that way :):

[rsh]

Well, I guess my church is cursed by Rome because we do not pray to Mary and are taught the only way to get to heaven is Jesus Christ. Mary is held in high regard because she was chosen to be the mother of Jesus Christ but we do not worship or Pray to her. Our Priest reads from the bible and we are told the bible is the only word of the Lord .
Saint Coleman's Catholic Church

[kerri]

Originally posted by rsh
Well, I guess my church is cursed by Rome because we do not pray to Mary and are taught the only way to get to heaven is Jesus Christ. Mary is held in high regard because she was chosen to be the mother of Jesus Christ but we do not worship or Pray to her. Our Priest reads from the bible and we are told the bible is the only word of the Lord .
Saint Coleman's Catholic Church

Well- don't worry too much if men condemn your church for speaking the truth (you will get blessings for that in heaven) - the thing that matters is that the Lord's work is being done :clap

I for one give the priest a giant :thumb :thumb.

(He sounds a lot like the priest who led my mom to the Lord :):)

[rsh]

Well- it doesn't matter if men condemn your church fro speaking the truth (you will get blessings for that in heaven) - the thing that matters is that the Lord's work is being done

I for one give the priest a giant .

(He sounds a lot like the priest who led my mom to the Lord )


Thank you very Much Kerri!

[janh7]

I believe the RCC is a huge cult. Period. The fact that it is a very large cult doesn't change anything except that there are many following RCC's false teachings. There are great and wonderful people within, I'm sure. There are many wonderful people, many kind and caring people that are horribly wrong about who God is and what His word says. It grieves me to see how mislead many of her adherents really are. If we defended the faith as vehemently as they do the "church", the kingdom would benefit greatly.

[BaylorBrat]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter Did the RCC teach them this salvation by faith alone? No, it did not, in fact it teaches against it.

As does Scripture. Sacred Scripture teaches salvation BY grace-see my sig. We are saved solely BY the grace of God.

If I had a dime for everytime I saw a person on this board say that we are saved BY faith . . . .

:frusty

61 more days :hail Praise to You Lord Jesus Christ!

Bay
:wave

[kerri]

Originally posted by janh7
I believe the RCC is a huge cult. Period. The fact that it is a very large cult doesn't change anything except that there are many following RCC's false teachings. There are great and wonderful people within, I'm sure. There are many wonderful people, many kind and caring people that are horribly wrong about who God is and what His word says. It grieves me to see how mislead many of her adherents really are. If we defended the faith as vehemently as they do the "church", the kingdom would benefit greatly.

The difference is- we aren't just talking about kind and caring people- I think its safe to say none of us believes that in and of itself will save anyone...

we were talking about those remnant in any of the churches who are our brothers and sisters in Christ because of their saving heart knowledge of Jesus Christ as their Savior (regardless of the non-salvation misbeliefs they may hold to).

We can know them by their fruits (no matter what denom they assoc. with)

[kerri]

Originally posted by BaylorBrat
As does Scripture. Sacred Scripture teaches salvation BY grace-see my sig. We are saved solely BY the grace of God.

If I had a dime for everytime I saw a person on this board say that we are saved BY faith . . . .

:frusty

61 more days :hail Praise to You Lord Jesus Christ!

Bay
:wave

We're not debating doctrines in this thread, BB (apolo's got plenty of that)...

this thread is about recognizing our brothers and sisters in Christ from different denoms- not BECAUSE they are in those denoms- but despite denominationalism ;):

There is only ONE real True Church (and its not found within one denom or a building) its found only in having a saving knowledge of JesusChrist as our LORD and Savior - and we are celebrating being a part of it.

[Elizabeth_S]

Originally posted by kerri
We're not debating doctrines in this thread, BB (apolo's got plenty of that)...

this thread is about recognizing our brothers and sisters in Christ from different denoms- not BECAUSE they are in those denoms- but despite denominationalism ;):

There is only ONE real True Church (and its not found within one denom or a building) its found only in having a saving knowledge of JesusChrist as our LORD and Savior - and we are celebrating being a part of it.

Yep, we have been saying this for how long Kerri? It is not an institution that saves, it is just Jesus.

But here, I believe the point was that there are saved people in denominations.

We have had some wonderful debates in apolo on the actual false teachings and doctrines haven't we! Been called some big names, "cross burner, hater, anti (whatever), hater, liar, bigot (for not agreeing with the Pope)etc......

All for refuting the false teachings and doctrines of the RCC, LDS and many others with just the BIBLE alone. We all had scorched falme retardent suits then.






Liz------------->reminising over the good old days *sigh*

[BaylorBrat]

Hi Kerri,

The post I was responding to implies (in my eyes at least) that we are saved BY faith. If they believe that we are saved BY faith then they are in serious theological error (see Ephesians), and I am obliged by my love and concern to point out that we are saved BY grace (again, Paul makes this explicit). To me, this is an extremely important distinction to make.

Now whether we are saved BY grace *through faith alone* is up for debate in the aplo section ;):

Get my point?

YSIC,
Baylor :wave

[BarbT]

rsh, the pope devotes 2 hours a night to praying directly to "his queen". He also dedicated the world's youth to her last year. By the description you gave of your priest and congregation, I have concluded you do not attend a Roman Catholic Church. The title may still be there but the teachings are not. :):

Krispy, I see what you are saying and agree completely. Thank you for holding fast to an unpopular viewpoint which happens to be true.

The Roman religion is tragically corrupt. As a former Catholic, I can attest to the fact that the truth either never was there or it departed LONG ago. It is a totally false church. That a small remnant of people can languish in her fire and still come out unscorched is a real miracle.

[kerri]

Originally posted by Elizabeth_S
Yep, we have been saying this for how long Kerri? It is not an institution that saves, it is just Jesus.

But here, I believe the point was that there are saved people in denominations.

We have had some wonderful debates in apolo on the actual false teachings and doctrines haven't we! Been called some big names, "cross burner, hater, anti (whatever), hater, liar, bigot (for not agreeing with the Pope)etc......

All for refuting the false teachings and doctrines of the RCC, LDS and many others with just the BIBLE alone. We all had scorched falme retardent suits then.


Liz------------->reminising over the good old days *sigh*

Yeah Liz- I think our suits are still smokin from the flames we got :eek :laugh

Just so I make it clear again to the others who havent seen my posts in apolo (I don't think Krispy had when he was responding to my first few posts because he was misunderstanding me:P:)- I am in no way defending any of the anti-Biblical doctrines that are found within the RCC catechism- just defending those individuals who I have known that have been saved in spite of them :):

I believe PJ was one of our saved catholics (he had a fervent love for the Lord and was fighting against the acceptance of the Marian apparitions within the church)- you guys remember him? I wonder how he's doing? :):


edit: btw, Liz- you need to start coming into chat again- I miss you guys :kiss

[Joyful One]

Originally posted by BaylorBrat
"As does Scripture. Sacred Scripture teaches salvation BY grace-see my sig. We are saved solely BY the grace of God."

"If I had a dime for everytime I saw a person on this board say that we are saved BY faith . . . ."



Ephesians
2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.


John 3:16

3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.



Question ... If "We are saved solely BY the grace of God." then what part does faith have in it ?
If "We are saved solely BY the grace of God.", then I would guess that God's "grace "would cover every single human being who ever existed ? Right ?

I don't think so ...
Yes it is through God's grace ( a giving of a gift that no person deserves to get - God's Son on the cross dying for our sins and rising again victorious over death ) that he reached out to mankind , but mankind must reach out to Him . Hint Hint - here comes the faith part - here comes the "believeth in Him part . God's grace alone does not do the job ...

Quote from Baylorbrat

"Now whether we are saved BY grace *through faith alone* is up for debate in the aplo section "

Well according to the Bible --Ephesians 2:9 makes it pretty clear what will not save you .
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We do good because Jesus is our Savior and He is in us ,He comes first , then the "good works " . It is not the other way around - we do good works and somehow we earn favor with Jesus and then because of that He comes into Us and we are saved .

[Elizabeth_S]

Originally posted by kerri
Yeah Liz- I think our suits are still smokin from the flames we got :eek :laugh

Just so I make it clear again to the others who havent seen my posts in apolo (I don't think Krispy had when he was responding to my first few posts because he was misunderstanding me:P:)- I am in no way defending any of the anti-Biblical doctrines that are found within the RCC catechism- just defending those individuals who I have known that have been saved in spite of them :):

I believe PJ was one of our saved catholics (he had a fervent love for the Lord and was fighting against the acceptance of the Marian apparitions within the church)- you guys remember him? I wonder how he's doing? :):


edit: btw, Liz- you need to start coming into chat again- I miss you guys :kiss

About PJ, yes I believe he is saved and has a deep love for the Lord, he wants to change the RCC from within, he is the one I was thinking of when I mentioned shnging the RCC from within.

Kerri,
I do miss chat, and have even tought about trying it out again. I just have tough time sitting at one place for long periods of time anymore.

But really want to try chat again. I always loved talking to y'all.
{{{{{HUGS}}}}}

Tell everyone I said hi in chat.

[BaylorBrat]

Originally posted by Joyful One "As does Scripture. Sacred Scripture teaches salvation BY grace-see my sig. We are saved solely BY the grace of God."

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Question ... If "We are saved solely BY the grace of God." then what part does faith have in it ? If "We are saved solely BY the grace of God.", then I would guess that God's "grace "would cover every single human being who ever existed ? Right ?

Again, look at St. Paul's words: "For BY grace are ye saved through faith;" Faith, in and of itself, does NOT save us, for Paul is explicit that it is BY grace we are saved. If it were not for God's Grace then we could not have faith in Him to begin with.

Paul does not write, "For BY faith ye are saved . . .", Paul explicitly writes, "For BY grace ye are saved . . ."

I don't think so ...Yes it is through God's grace ( a giving of a gift that no person deserves to get - God's Son on the cross dying for our sins and rising again victorious over death ) that he reached out to mankind , but mankind must reach out to Him . Hint Hint - here comes the faith part - here comes the "believeth in Him part . God's grace alone does not do the job ...

:confused What your above statement implies to me is that you are saying "For by faith are ye saved through grace . . .", and St. Paul does not say that:

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Quote from Baylorbrat

"Now whether we are saved BY grace *through faith alone* is up for debate in the aplo section "

Well according to the Bible --Ephesians 2:9 makes it pretty clear what will not save you .
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I fully agree that works don't save anyone, for St. Paul says that it is BY grace that we are saved!

Sola Gracia was the cry of the Reformers, and I fully agree with them without any hesitation whatsoever on that point!

I think what you are trying to say is that we are saved BY grace through faith alone.

In Christ,
Bay :wave

[Elizabeth_S]

But without FAtih, YOU WILL NOT be saved.

So split hairs, but it is faith in Christ that God imparts saving grace upon the believer, that is the only way.

The watering down of the gospel is really starting to tick me off.:mad

Acts 16
29Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

John 3
16For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Acts 8
36Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?"
37Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may."
And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
38So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

Romans 10
8But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"[1] (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
.
Now try recieving saving grace from God without faith Baylor, it just cannot be done.

Without faith in Jesus , there is no salvation.
Acts 4
10let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11This is the "stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.'[1] 12Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

That is biblical, no matter how much you deny that Faith in Jesus is why God imparts saving grace upon us.

There is no "Mary" pez dispenser of grace from the RCC.

Just God saves, thorugh His grace when we believe on His only begotten Son.

[kerri]

Originally posted by Elizabeth_S
About PJ, yes I believe he is saved and has a deep love for the Lord, he wants to change the RCC from within, he is the one I was thinking of when I mentioned shnging the RCC from within.

Kerri,
I do miss chat, and have even tought about trying it out again. I just have tough time sitting at one place for long periods of time anymore.

But really want to try chat again. I always loved talking to y'all.
{{{{{HUGS}}}}}

Tell everyone I said hi in chat.

Will do- and definitely make sure to PM me and let me know when you can come in- so I know to be there :D:

:kiss

[Elizabeth_S]

I fully agree that works don't save anyone, for St. Paul says that it is BY grace that we are saved!
Baylor, did you not read Eph?
Why are we saved by grace? BECASUE OF OUR FAITH IN JESUS.
Ephesians 2
8For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Why is there grace? Because of our Faith, just as God told us thorugh Paul's writings.

[BaylorBrat]

Liz: But without FAtih, YOU WILL NOT be saved.

BB: I am in 100% agreement with that statement, but it is not BY faith that we are saved. I'll quote St. Paul:

"For *BY grace* are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Ephesians 2:8-9 (AV)

Liz: So split hairs, but it is faith in Christ that God imparts saving grace upon the believer, that is the only way.

BB: I am only arguing that we are saved BY grace. I have not touched upon HOW that grace is imparted to us :nod

In my eyes, this is not splitting hairs. If one believes that we are saved BY faith, then their soul is in grave danger and they disagree with St. Paul:

"For *BY grace* are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Ephesians 2:8-9 (AV)

There is no room for debate on this-St. Paul is explicit that we are saved BY the grace of God.

Liz: The watering down of the gospel is really starting to tick me off.

:confused I'm only contending that we are saved BY the grace of God and am using Scripture to back my position up, and that is "watering down the Gospel"??? This is the position of the Reformers-Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, et. al. This is the position of St. Paul:

"For *BY grace* are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Ephesians 2:8-9 (AV)

Liz: Now try recieving saving grace from God without faith Baylor, it just cannot be done.

Without faith in Jesus , there is no salvation.

BB: I have absolutely no quarrel with that, but it is not faith in and of itself that saves us:

"For *BY grace* are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Ephesians 2:8-9 (AV)

Liz: That is biblical, no matter how much you deny that Faith in Jesus is why God imparts saving grace upon us.

I have never denied that faith imparts grace on us. All I am contending is it is BY the grace of God that we are saved:

"For *BY grace* are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Ephesians 2:8-9 (AV)

Again, I have not touched upon HOW that grace is imparted to us.

This doctrine that I am espousing is called Sola Gratia-which was fervantly held by St. Paul, and even the Reformers themselves.

Praise to You Lord Jesus Christ, for it is only BY Your Grace that I have faith in You :hail

Baylor

[Elizabeth_S]

Liz: So split hairs, but it is faith in Christ that God imparts saving grace upon the believer, that is the only way.

BB: I am only arguing that we are saved BY grace. I have not touched upon HOW that grace is imparted to us

In my eyes, this is not splitting hairs. If one believes that we are saved BY faith, then their soul is in grave danger and they disagree with St. Paul:.

How Baylor? You make no sense. Cause it is faith, without it a person is doomed. You cannot receive grace without Faith. How do you receive grace, by FAITH. YOu just can't separate yourself from faith, it is necessary, you MUST believe, and you do not seem to understand, that without faith , a person is doomed, forever. And always.

You are still implying that in some way you can be saved by grace without faith. which is not possible. As Paul says, youare saved by GRACE through FAITH.

You seem to be denying faith is part of anything. WITHOUT FAITH IN JESUS, all is lost for that person.

Show me how you are going to be saved by grace without Faith, cause works will not have God impart grace on you, it is just FAITH, as you said, but cannot seem to understand, through FAITH .

Paul DID NOT separate grace from FAITH, he said you must have Faith for grace to be imparted on you.

[KrispyKritter]

BaylorBrat... you often to refer to "Saint" Paul... and truly he was/is a saint.

Let me ask you... are you a saint?

[houseparent]

:confused

Seems OBVIOUS to me that one needs FAITH and GRACE.

Why argue about that?:doh

[Jacob]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
If you believe in anything other than salvation by the atoning work of Christ... then you are not saved.

Gee whiz people... it's in the Bible.

AMEN! The bottom line is this: Do we know that are sins are forgiven? Do we have an authoratative word from God now to tell us that He has forgiven us? Life on this earth is temporary. Eternity is forever. Where will we be once we get there?

We cannot allow the devil to deceive us that all religions are Ok simply because they agree with the deity of Christ or take a stand against abortion. The apostle James tells us: "So you believe that God is one, even the demons believe this, and they tremble."

The Bible teaches us that we are forgiven of our sins and obtain eternal life by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, plus or minus nothing. Any denonination or faith system that denies that God justifies us by faith alone in Jesus Christ, and teaches that we must do something to merit God's forgiveness, whether it is taking sacraments, obeying the commandments, or doing good, is a system that is satanic.

[BaylorBrat]

Originally posted by Elizabeth_S How Baylor? You make no sense. Cause it is faith, without it a person is doomed. You cannot receive grace without Faith. How do you receive grace, by FAITH. YOu just can't separate yourself from faith, it is necessary, you MUST believe, and you do not seem to understand, that without faith , a person is doomed, forever. And always.

:confused You don't seem to understand that my posts on this thread have nothing to do with HOW the grace of God is imparted to us. You seem to be saying that we can have faith in Jesus Christ without the Grace of God.

THESIS THREE: SOLA GRATIA
We reaffirm that in salvation we are rescued from God's wrath by his grace alone. It is the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit that brings us to Christ by releasing us from our bondage to sin and raising us from spiritual death to spiritual life.

We deny that salvation is in any sense a human work. Human methods, techniques or strategies by themselves cannot accomplish this transformation. Faith is not produced by our unregenerated human nature.

Sola Gratia (http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/fivesolas.html).

I am beginning to think that all you are trying to do is to pick a fight, or that you truely do NOT understand sola Gratia.

I do not see a Scripture verse telling me that we are saved BY faith, I do see a lot of Scripture passages that grace is imparted to us THROUGH faith, but we are not saved by faith in and of itself. I also do not see a verse that states that we can have faith in Jesus Christ without grace.

You are still implying that in some way you can be saved by grace without faith. which is not possible. As Paul says, you are saved by GRACE through FAITH. (Emphasis mine)

You just said what I have been saying all through my posts. We are saved BY grace. I have not stated my position on how (which is what the THROUGH statement reflects) that grace is imparted on us.

You seem to be denying faith is part of anything. WITHOUT FAITH IN JESUS, all is lost for that person.

You seem to be denying that the Grace of God has nothing to do my faith in Jesus Christ. If it were not for the grace of God then I could not have faith in Jesus Christ to begin with.

Again, I'll quote from above: Faith is not produced by our unregenerated human nature.

Show me how you are going to be saved by grace without Faith, cause works will not have God impart grace on you, it is just FAITH, as you said, but cannot seem to understand, through FAITH.

Please show me how we have faith without the grace of God.

Paul DID NOT separate grace from FAITH, he said you must have Faith for grace to be imparted on you.

You seem to be saying that we are saved BY grace AND faith when St. Paul states in Ephesians that we are only saved BY grace.

I will close with one on my favourite hymns:

Amazing Grace

Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found;
Was blind, but now I see.

'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved;
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares,
I have already come;
’Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promised good to me,
His Word my hope secures;
He will my Shield and Portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess, within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun forbear to shine;
But God, Who called me here below,
Shall be forever mine.

When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
Bright shining as the sun,
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
Than when we’d first begun.

Amazing Grace (http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/a/m/amazgrac.htm)

If you deny sola gratia, that we are saved BY grace alone, as St. Paul says we are in Ephesians and that this hymn celebrates, then you do not understand salvation.

Praise to You Lord Jesus Christ :hail for I could not have faith in You if You did not first give your Grace to believe.

Baylor
:wave

[KrispyKritter]

Sit back, relax... and enjoy the dance of the semantics...

:popcorn

[BaylorBrat]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter Sit back, relax... and enjoy the dance of the semantics...

KrispyKritter,

Do you understand what I am saying? If so, then perhaps you could explain to Liz that we cannot have faith in Jesus Christ apart from grace, which is what her position seems to be :(:

Praise to You Lord Jesus Christ for giving me the Grace to have Faith in You :hail For it is By Your Grace alone that saves me.

Baylor

SOLA GRATIA!

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by kerri
There is only ONE real True Church (and its not found within one denom or a building) its found only in having a saving knowledge of JesusChrist as our LORD and Savior - and we are celebrating being a part of it. :dancing

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by houseparent
Seems OBVIOUS to me that one needs FAITH and GRACE.

Why argue about that?:doh :nod

Without Grace, Salvation is impossible.

Without Faith, Grace is not received.

[blitzkreig]

Just a couple points.

BB is correct about Grace preceding Faith. And that Grace is what saves. With Grace one can not but have Faith. And Grace is without works or any kind or type of merit.

Odd thing is that is not a fundamental belief in the RCC. You will have to work on that BB (pun intended). ;):

Now a comment on the RCC. Catholics are good folks by-in-large. Of course like any large group of individuals you will have a few bad actors. The problem has never been with the folks but with the Roman hierarchy. The higher you go the fishier it gets.

How come? It really is quite simple.

Well when Ancient Rome in around 300 AD had about grilled, fried, stripped, raped and fed every Christian it could find to the lions, Constantine became Roman Emperor. Believe it or not Constantine then decided to make Christianity into the State Religion.

Constantine then declared the entire population Christian. :freaked Think about that for a second or two. Satan's legion was made Christian by declaration.

So every torturer, every crooked Roman power-monger, every crooked Roman politician who ever had power in the Roman State which had became the murderer of all of Christianity... suddenly became the power infrastructure in what we know today as the Roman Catholic Church. Hundreds of years later you see that tree continue to bare fruit in the Inquisitions with all of the torture and murder.

A brilliant plan of Satan's when you stop and think about it...

That twisted legacy can not help but had an awful influence to this very day.

So the further you get from Rome the more likely you will find a Roman Catholic Church which is a sincere, ernest, faithful, honest, etc. etc... and yes,... even have legitimate doctrinal positions founded in the Bible....and there are plenty of them. Some of those Christians are found posting on this board... and wondering about all of the fuss.

The only problem is none of the congregations can get far enough from Rome to avoid the worst of the bad human doctrine that is the history and legacy of the Roman Church... and the foul list is a long one that doesn't need to be repeated here.

The Roman Church is damaged to the core. Anyone with legitimate fellowship options should run (not walk) away quietly and thankfully.

[blitzkreig]

Originally posted by Hootmon
:nod

Without Grace, Salvation is impossible.

Without Faith, Grace is not received. Which did Paul have on that fateful Damascus Road trip?

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by blitzkreig
Which did Paul have on that fateful Damascus Road trip? He received a Faith 'inducement'.

{Edit: A demonstration of God's sovereignity, dont you think?}

[KrispyKritter]

BB... when are you going to answer my question??

Are you a saint?

[BaylorBrat]

Originally posted by blitzkreig BB is correct about Grace preceding Faith. And that Grace is what saves. With Grace one can not but have Faith. And Grace is without works or any kind or type of merit.

Hallelujah! :dancing
GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On your other comments, we'll have to agree to disagree ;):

Praise to You Lord Jesus Christ for Your Grace,
BB :wave

[blitzkreig]

Originally posted by Hootmon
He received a Faith 'inducement'.

{Edit: A demonstration of God's sovereignity, dont you think?} :nod

Reminds me of jump-starting a car with a dead battery :):

[BaylorBrat]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter BB... when are you going to answer my question??

:confused I don't recall you asking me a question in this thread.

Are you a saint?

If what you mean by "saint" is a Christian then my answer is that I have been a Holy Spirit filled Child of God since I was twelve years old when I accepted by faith Jesus Christ as my "personal Lord and Saviour" solely by the Grace of God. I've travelled the "Roman Road", and am very grateful for my Southern Baptist (http://www.sbc.net/default.asp) heritage.

Praise to You Lord Jesus Christ for Your Goodness and Mercy,
Baylor
:):

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by BaylorBrat
If what you mean by "saint" is a Christian then my answer is that I have been a Holy Spirit filled Child of God since I was twelve years old when I accepted by faith Jesus Christ as my "personal Lord and Saviour" solely by the Grace of God. I've travelled the "Roman Road", and am very grateful for my Southern Baptist (http://www.sbc.net/default.asp) heritage.

Praise to You Lord Jesus Christ for Your Goodness and Mercy,
Baylor
:):

Well, that would be the scriptural definition of the word "saint". Are there other degrees of "saints", or is that about it?

[BaylorBrat]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter Well, that would be the scriptural definition of the word "saint". Are there other degrees of "saints", or is that about it?

I consider those already in Heaven to be "saints" as well since they are Holy Spirit filled Children of God too. (And no, I'm not debating this as I refuse to go farther into this rabbit hole.)

Praise To You Lord Jesus Christ For Your Goodness,
BB :wave

[Jael]

Originally posted by Hootmon
:nod

Without Grace, Salvation is impossible.

Without Faith, Grace is not received.

Amen! Short and sweet.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:


Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

[Joyful One]

Originally posted by Hootmon


"Without Grace, Salvation is impossible."

"Without Faith, Grace is not received. "

Hootman --- What took you so long ? I agree with your response 100 % .As another has said - short and sweet . Yes it is .

[blitzkreig]

Rom 12:3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

And for that I am, and will always be, eternally grateful...

[Stephanie]

Tofu - thanks for this thread. I'm with you! I've known quite a few very devout Catholics who love Jesus Christ and know Him as their Savior. God knows the heart - not the denomination! May you be blessed...


edited: html error correction - s