death through inherited sin...fair?

[joint heir]

Is it fair that we inherited sin and spiritual death? yes or no....why or why not....?

[Gordon b]

Life isn't fair. Good thing we have grace !

[joelch2]

Originally posted by joint heir
Is it fair that we inherited sin and spiritual death? yes or no....why or why not....?

Just as fair as Jesus paying the price for setting us free of that inherited sin and spiritual death. :):

[joint heir]

two now that have said that it is unfair that we inherited sin....

Is it okay that God is unfair...as long as He unfairly takes something of His own...(His son?)

[joelch2]

Originally posted by joint heir
two now that have said that it is unfair that we inherited sin....

Is it okay that God is unfair...as long as He unfairly takes something of His own...(His son?)

No, that's not exactly what I said. :):

Anyway, God isn't going to condemn us on Adam's sin or even our father's sin. Our own sin is quite sufficient.

[kerri]

I don't think we inhereted "sin" (as in the guilt of Adam's sin) persay - but we DID inheret the knowledge of good and evil (from Adam and Eve)- and we also have the misfortune of being born into a fallen creation (where we are constantly faced with sin and temptation and where satan reigns) and seperation from God because of Adam's sin.

The mixture of the two is where we get our sin nature from (IMO).

Do I think its fair that we live with the result of Adam's sin? I don't know and can't even really say....

I just don't think it could be any other way once Adam went outside of God's will and sinned, which is why our Redemer was slain from the foundation of the world- God knew it would happen- and His plan of redemption was already in place.

[B A N E]

There is a lesson to be learned from Adam.

Adam is the totality of ALL Humanity.
Every human born of Adam is a fraction of what Adam was.

Had it been anyone (fill in the blank human being) that was in
the Garden, that person would have *eaten of the fruit*.

And the answer is: Fair

[Werner]

What B A N E said! :nod :thumb


:B: :wave

[keeotee]

Well, I'd like to go into all of it, but the short of it is yes, it is fair. On the other hand, we can assume God is not fair. Many believe that poiint of view. On the other hand, anyone can believe anything they like afterall. But in the end, they will believe only the truth. Death brings complete knowledge and understanding. Some will rejoice in it and others will weep and wail for it. But at that point in time, no one will question the fairness of it. No one!

[imfree]

Well I'm no theologian but I would have to say it is fair because if Adam hadn't sinned, someone else would have. Would I have eaten the fruit from that tree? Probably.

[joelch2]

I read a story once about this servant who complained all day about Adam. “If only Adam hadn’t taken a bite of the fruit I wouldn’t be a servant.” And so on and so on he would walk around all day complaining and grumbling.

His master decided to put an end to all the complaining by putting his servant to a simple test. He placed a small box on the dining room table and ordered the servant NOT to open and look inside.

The servant left the box alone for a time, but finally his curiosity got the best of him and he opened it and looked inside.

Inside was a note telling the servant that there was to be no more complaining because he would have done exactly what Adam had done.

[Werner]

We don't want fair, we want grace and mercy. If God was going to be fair Jesus would have stopped before the cross and said "No, wait... let's be fair here..." and we would all be dead in our sins even now.

Thank God that He is not fair! :hail

God is righteous. To stand before Him without the mercy and grace we have received through Christ Jesus would be a terrible and frightful prospect.

:freaked :peep

Besides, from our perspective as imperfect beings fair is subjective. One may consider something fair that another would not. God is perfect though, and He suffered for us that we could live and be reconciled to Him. We have no concept of what He suffered, and we will never know it, because He took it all!

Praise God! :hail

Maranatha! :dancing

John

[2bossy]

I think fair and unfair are human ideas. Is it fair that I'm blonde and other people have to bleach their hair? :D: Is it fair that my son has diabetes? Its not fair, its not unfair. Its just how it is.

[keeotee]

Werner - well said!

[joint heir]

well maybe the question should be ......Is it just?


it seems that there are two points of view....one is that it is just....because we would have done the same thing in adam's place....

and two....it does not matter if it is fair and/or just because God paid for it anyway....

[Christ Rocks On]

Originally posted by Werner
We don't want fair, we want grace and mercy. If God was going to be fair Jesus would have stopped before the cross and said "No, wait... let's be fair here..." and we would all be dead in our sins even now.

Thank God that He is not fair! :hail

God is righteous. To stand before Him without the mercy and grace we have received through Christ Jesus would be a terrible and frightful prospect.

:freaked :peep

Besides, from our perspective as imperfect beings fair is subjective. One may consider something fair that another would not. God is perfect though, and He suffered for us that we could live and be reconciled to Him. We have no concept of what He suffered, and we will never know it, because He took it all!

Praise God! :hail

Maranatha! :dancing

John

:thumb

[B A N E]

Yes.

If any/all human(s) would have committed the deed,
then condemning all humanity is just.

[Workfromhomemom]

Originally posted by Werner
What B A N E said! :nod :thumb


:B: :wave

Ditto...

I would just say this, to add my own 2cents...

We are sinners, not because we sin, but because of "sin". Of course, we sin because of our sin nature but we are defined as sinners because of "sin".


Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


Since we were all "in Adam" (in his loins) when he sinned, it is the same as if we did it.

Of course this is fair, because God is just. It is one of his characteristics. To doubt this, is to doubt God's word.

It had to be this way, since the "fix" would similarly be "not of ourselves".

If people become sinners because of being "in Adam", they get out of being (declared) "sinners" by getting baptized into Christ's death! Amen... It is totally by Christ's finished work that brings us out of that penalty...

:):

[keeotee]

Originally posted by joint heir
well maybe the question should be ......Is it just?


it seems that there are two points of view....one is that it is just....because we would have done the same thing in adam's place....

and two....it does not matter if it is fair and/or just because God paid for it anyway....

Well, the easy answer to "is it just" is yes. It is so because we know that God declares Himself to be just. He also declares Himself to be sovereign. Now in light of His osvereignty, it must therefore be iether a mistake on God's part or it is just.

The odd thing is that before Adam and Eve fell, we have no record of either of them asking if anything was just or fair, nor do we have any record of God asking for their opinion on the way He does something. Since their fall, we have plenty of opinions on the way God does things.

I wonder if there is any connection!

[joint heir]

yeah but we don't have a record of a lot of things that were going on;):

[keeotee]

Originally posted by joint heir
yeah but we don't have a record of a lot of things that were going on;):

And that means what exactly in light of what I said?

[joint heir]

nothing....just trying to promote conversation....

we really don't have enough information about Adam and Eve to say what their relationship was like....

but it is an interesting thought:):

[Joyful One]

Quote from joint heir

"we really don't have enough information about Adam and Eve to say what their relationship was like...."

Before -Well, we do know that they were unashamed in their nakedness .
After the fall - they were ashamed .

Before - they had a close realationship with God .
After - they hid when He called their names

Before. We do know that their every need was supplied . We do know that they didn't have to toil .
After - Adam did have to toil .


Before - We do know that it wasn't planned for woman to have pain in childbirth .
After - it is punishment that woman have labor pains .

Before - God instructed them on the foods they could eat , and the animals were not part of the menu .
After - I haven't read that they started to eat the animals , but where do you think God got the coverings for their nakedness from ?

God killed one of his creation for Adam and eve .

Before -Adam and Eve lived in the Garden of Eden - a perfect paradise
After - no more living where thay had always been .

[joint heir]

let me clarify..


we don't have enough information to know whether or not they questioned God on the fairness and the "why's" of life...

as it relates to this conversation:):

[joy4Him2day]

How about.........

"Did God really say that?" :D:

[Joyful One]

quote from joint heir

" let me clarify.."


"we don't have enough information to know whether or not they questioned God on the fairness and the "why's" of life...

as it relates to this conversation"


Let me clarify

Everything in their lifes was PERFECT before they sinned . Why would they have a reason to question God about the fairness of anything ?


Quote from Keeotee

"The odd thing is that before Adam and Eve fell, we have no record of either of them asking if anything was just or fair, nor do we have any record of God asking for their opinion on the way He does something. Since their fall, we have plenty of opinions on the way God does things."

I really don't understand how my comments don't apply to this conversation .It makes sense to me , sorry if it doesn't to you . Don't know what more to say ...

As far as the original question goes ...

"Is it fair that we inherited sin and spiritual death? yes or no....why or why not....?

Fair or not - it doesn't matter - it is as it is . Who am I to question the giver of my life and the creator and master of the universe on what is fair and what is not .For me personally - I don't want to go there ...

[keeotee]

Originally posted by joint heir
let me clarify..


we don't have enough information to know whether or not they questioned God on the fairness and the "why's" of life...

as it relates to this conversation:):

I can only say I do believe we have enough information in this particular case.

I would suggest when you read the Bible to do so in light of what it tells you about God. God is the bigger picture to keep in mind here.

One other thing I would like to poinit out is this... It's not about us! It is about God. Man, Christians especially so, so often belive and think this whole thing is about us and it quite simply is not. It is about God. Now if you keep that in mind when reading the Bible, it will help.

[joint heir]

What I am speaking to is the way some people take a few chapters of scripture and claim that they know what everyday was like between Adam and Eve and God....( a bit of a pet peeve for me)

they take one line of dialogue....and then think that they in there human knowledge...understand everything their is to know about the intimacy and dynamics between the Godhead and man(who was Adam and Eve)

surely there are some things that we can glean....but
maybe they did ask "Why can't we eat from that tree....why did you make the elephant that way?"...How are we to know?...(Unless God chooses to tell us...which He has not.)

not out of rebellion ,....but out of curiousity....which is where the original question of this thread was prompted....

God is not opposed to us discussing his fairness or justness or any other quality ....because he stands true and perfect....of course he is just and fair....

but what I was trying to encourage was dialogue that would help many reason out why He is fair and just....because there are many lurkers here who make believe that He is not....

I already know what my belief is ....before this thread I knew that my belief was in line with BANE's


I am not quite sure how this thread go so off track of that course:confused ....maybe it is my fault for expecting that everyone joining the thread would already know that I was a christian....and would naturally believe God is just:):


edit spelling

[Lonewolf7]

Originally posted by joint heir
Is it fair that we inherited sin and spiritual death? yes or no....why or why not....?

Fair is out of the question.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

[joint heir]

well there goes my theology out the window:doh

but he doesn't have mercy on them all:confused

[jon uk]

sin does not lead to death...Jesus died for your sins, past, presant and future...if your born again you have eternal life.:thumb

[keeotee]

Originally posted by jon uk
sin does not lead to death...Jesus died for your sins, past, presant and future...if your born again you have eternal life.:thumb

Well, you're not quite right there....

read 1 John 5:16-17

Here John says...

"If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to thos whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

[jon uk]

:wave
1 John 1 verse 8......................everyone sins
1 John 1verse 1>2...................your sins are paid for

1 John 3 verse 9......................cannot sin :confused
this i believe talks of the Holy Spirit.....the spirit of Christ within us....its perfect.

Ephesians 1 verse 13 says this is sealed ie preserved sin cannot taint it
God communicates to us through the Holy Spirit...in Gods eyes you cannot sin....THE BODY SINS
John 3 verse 6..........flesh is flesh, spirit is spirit.....two seperate entitys

John 6 verse 63..it is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing, the words that i say to you are Spirit and they are life

Hebrews 9 verse 11.>15....OT verses NT....Christ died once so that we may receive ETERNAL redemption

Hebrews 9 verse24>28...... Christ died once NOT often so in conclusion once saved always saved, sin does not lead to death

this is my take on the subject anyway :thumb

[andy]

God: fair or unfair......just or unjust......true or untrue......and on and on.

I am not trying to make fun of anyone or to make light of anyone's question. I too, used to ask many questions and wonder about many, many things in God's word.

Then it hit me. Where was I when God formed planets with His spoken word. Where was I when God created gravity, oxygen, life, plants, comets, the Milky Way, and on and on. Who am I to question the Eternal One.

I deserve hell, but through God's love and mercy, He paid for my sins with the precious blood of His only begotten Son, Jesus. I am now His child and I do not question my Father.

I just accept.

[keeotee]

Originally posted by jon uk
:wave
1 John 1 verse 8......................everyone sins
1 John 1verse 1>2...................your sins are paid for

1 John 3 verse 9......................cannot sin :confused
this i believe talks of the Holy Spirit.....the spirit of Christ within us....its perfect.

Ephesians 1 verse 13 says this is sealed ie preserved sin cannot taint it
God communicates to us through the Holy Spirit...in Gods eyes you cannot sin....THE BODY SINS
John 3 verse 6..........flesh is flesh, spirit is spirit.....two seperate entitys

John 6 verse 63..it is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing, the words that i say to you are Spirit and they are life

Hebrews 9 verse 11.>15....OT verses NT....Christ died once so that we may receive ETERNAL redemption

Hebrews 9 verse24>28...... Christ died once NOT often so in conclusion once saved always saved, sin does not lead to death

this is my take on the subject anyway :thumb

I think you've chosen a good word there... "your take". What this means is that this is what you believe as opposed to what you know. I don't claim to know concerning once saved always saved or the rapture either.

Being able to read the Bible for myself, it leaves me with verses in support of and against both of these topics. In addition, going beyond the verses themselves and looking at God and the bigger picture, by thinking about such things, I can again come up with arguments for and against.

With this in mind, I prefer to accept that I do not know rather than even claim I believe either one with certainty.

There is a question I can ask that no one can answer concerning both of those topics - once saved, always saved and the rapture. Yes, I said no one can answer the question - not to my satisfaction anyway, nor to any degree that I haven't already considered for myself. Now with that in mind, I don't take much stock in anyone saying they "know". The truth is in fact that they believe and they do not know! I'm ok with that.

But the mistake you've made, in my opinion, is to show verses supporting your position rather than to address the verse I gave. This in effect does not negate the verse I gave. Rather it leaves it sitting alone and unaddressed. That is a tactic rather than a sufficient rebuttal. Does that make sense? Put another way, in effect, what you've done is to isolate and exclude the verse I gave rather than address it. That doesn't make it go away nor does it make it null and void nor render it meaningless. It's still there waiting to be addressed!

I do appreciate your point of view. I cannot disagree with you as I said I only claiim to not know. But that means I cannot agree with you either.

[jon uk]

But the mistake you've made, in my opinion, is to show verses supporting your position rather than to address the verse I gave. This in effect does not negate the verse I gave. Rather it leaves it sitting alone and unaddressed

im guilty as charged :nod but it was not a tactic im a very new christian (newborn) and i find that many of the comments on rapture ready make me study scripture and enable me to learn things i otherwise would not think of studying. Im sure as i become more mature in my believe my views may change, maybe its time to take more than a passing view of 1 john 5 15>17 and i thank you for that :thumb

[keeotee]

Originally posted by jon uk
im guilty as charged :nod but it was not a tactic im a very new christian (newborn) and i find that many of the comments on rapture ready make me study scripture and enable me to learn things i otherwise would not think of studying. Im sure as i become more mature in my believe my views may change, maybe its time to take more than a passing view of 1 john 5 15>17 and i thank you for that :thumb

No, thank you! You are an intellectually honest person. I have high regard for such people. I have to continually try to be so myself. We all tend to be immediately defensive and to defend our position and belief, which is often nothing more than an opinion. But whether it be belief or opinion, is not the real goal to know, to understand and to be wise! If we find our opinion or belief to be in error, rather than defend we ought to seek to grow in knowledge, wisdom and understanding rather than to hold to that which we find to be in error. This is a hrad thing to learn and an even harder thing to do. And it is not always an easy thing to recognize. Letting go of an opinion or belief is difficult at best.

I've never cared much for the taking of a side in the issue of once saved, always saved. I say this because in the end it will not matter. Those that believe it and those that don't won't be judged on it. We will be judged on our position in Christ. As for the belief in the rapture... how is it that this is a demanding one? Will those that are in Christ be left behind if they do not believe in the rapture? I hardly think so. Likewise, if someone is in Christ and doesn't beleive in once saved always saved, will they not be saved? I hardly think so.

Do not consider the verse I gave you to be one that makes the verses you gave null and void either. That would be the opposite of the point I made and the equal of it. That would be wrong too.

God said that He is able to complete that which He has begun in us.

There are just too many voices out there and too many beliefs and opinions to make sense of it all. So what does that mean then? What are we to do then? The bottom line is what we must seek and find. So what is the bottom line then? Seek God! God says He will be found when we seek Him with all our hearts. And trust your soul to God. Put your soul in the hands of God for safekeeping.

The deciples once asked Jesus, who then can be saved? It is only possible with God. We do our part and leave the rst up to Him. Now that requires faith and trust in God.

When reading the Bible, always ask yourself of what you've read, what does this tell me about God? What of His character and His ways and means. What can I learn of God in what I've just read. Even if you at first think there is nothng there, trust me, it's there. If it is the Word of God Himself, then all of it tells us something about God Himself. Never fall into the minute of the Bible but always keep it all within the larger context of the whole. It cannot be separated into pieces without being a part of the whole. The pieces are valid yes, but they are also a part of the whole. So always consider the whole as well. Simply put, consider the big picture of the whole of the Bible.

I'll give an example. Anytime you hear someone say, God is a God of love, stop and consider the whole of the Bible. That is not God! God is not just a God of love. That would make Him a one-dimensional God. He is much more. So immediately your thoughts should go to the whole of the Bible and consider really Who God is. He is also a just and holy God. And He is much more. Now that is not to condemn anyone that says God is a God of love. I'm not saying that and I hope that was clear. But I used that to try and make my point, which I hope I have been able to do.

And no, you did not use it as a tactic on purpose. :) I appreciate your honesty and reply.

As a new Christian, never allow others to dissuade you from your faith in God. We all have questions and things we do not understand. Anytime you do not understand something about God or what His Word says, remember that His ways and thoughts and means are high above ours. Leave that rea of lacking understanding to God. Seek God and He will teach you and instruct you in the way you should go. That comes from Psalms where God says I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go. Trust Him to do just that. :)

[imfree]

Originally posted by andy
God: fair or unfair......just or unjust......true or untrue......and on and on.

I am not trying to make fun of anyone or to make light of anyone's question. I too, used to ask many questions and wonder about many, many things in God's word.

Then it hit me. Where was I when God formed planets with His spoken word. Where was I when God created gravity, oxygen, life, plants, comets, the Milky Way, and on and on. Who am I to question the Eternal One.

I deserve hell, but through God's love and mercy, He paid for my sins with the precious blood of His only begotten Son, Jesus. I am now His child and I do not question my Father.

I just accept.

Wow. What you said really ministered to me. I am compelled to agree with your last statement. "I just accept." Well, I accept it too.

YSIC :wave