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Patty T
February 6th, 2004, 09:13 PM
I have just learned a great deal about spiritual gifts from this commentary. This is just an example... there is a notion within the church and among some believers, that the "evidence" of being baptised in the Holy Spirit is the speaking forth of tongues. I was told that 4 years ago. How I wish I would have gotten deeper into scripture then about what I was being told - but, I suppose God's timing is always perfect, and then was not the time for me. According to scripture, not everyone gets all the gifts, and not all get the same "degree or level" if you will, of them.

This commentary has been eye-opening for me, and I hope someone else will be blessed by it as well.

Patty



Matthew Henry Commentary on 1 Corinthians 12


In this chapter the apostle,

I. Considers the case of spiritual gifts, which were very plentifully poured out on the Corinthian church. He considers their original, that they are from God; their variety and use, that they were all intended for one and the same general end, the advancement of Christianity and the church’s edification (v. 1–11).

II. He illustrates this by an allusion to a human body, in which all the members have a mutual relation and subserviency, and each has its proper place and use (v. 12–26).

III. He tells us that the church is the body of Christ, and the members are variously gifted for the benefit of the whole body, and each particular member (v. 27–30). And them,

IV. Closes with an exhortation to seek somewhat more beneficial than these gifts (v. 31).

1Cr 12:1-11

The apostle comes now to treat of spiritual gifts, which abounded in the church of Corinth, but were greatly abused. What these gifts were is at large told us in the body of the chapter; namely, extraordinary offices and powers, bestowed on ministers and Christians in the first ages, for conviction of unbelievers, and propagation of the gospel. Gifts and graces, charismata and charis, greatly differ. Both indeed were freely given of God. But where grace is given it is for the salvation of those who have it. Gifts are bestowed for the advantage and salvation of others.

And there may be great gifts where there is not a dram of grace, but persons possessed of them are utterly out of the divine favour. They are great instances of divine benignity to men, but do not by themselves prove those who have them to be the objects of divine complacency. This church was rich in gifts, but there were many things scandalously out of order in it. Now concerning these spiritual gifts, that is, the extraordinary powers they had received from the Spirit,

I. The apostle tells them he would not have them ignorant either of their original or use. They came from God, and were to be used for him. It would lead them far astray if they were ignorant of one or the other of these. Note, Right information is of great use as to all religious practice. It is wretched work which gifted men make who either do not know or do not advert to the nature and right use of the gifts with which they are endowed.

II. He puts them in the mind of the sad state out of which they had been recovered: You were Gentiles, carried away to dumb idols, even as you were led, v. 2. While they were so, they could have no pretensions to be spiritual men, nor to have spiritual gifts. While they were under the conduct of the spirit of Gentilism, they could not be influenced by the Spirit of Christ. If they well understood their former condition, they could not but know that all true spiritual gifts were from God. Now concerning this observe,

1. Their former character: they were Gentiles. Not God’s peculiar people, but of the nations whom he had in a manner abandoned. The Jews were, before, his chosen people, distinguished from the rest of the world by his favour. To them the knowledge and worship of the true God were in a manner confined. The rest of the world were strangers to the covenant of promise, aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and in a manner without God, Eph. 2:12. Such Gentiles were the body of the Corinthians, before their conversion to Christianity. What a change was here! Christian Corinthians were once Gentiles. Note, It is of great use to the Christian, and a proper consideration to stir him up both to duty and thankfulness, to think what once he was: You were Gentiles.

2. The conduct they were under: Carried away to these dumb idols, even as you were led. They were hurried upon the grossest idolatry, the worship even of stocks and stones, through the force of a vain imagination, and the fraud of their priests practising on their ignorance, for, whatever were the sentiments of their philosophers, this was the practice of the herd. The body of the people paid their homage and worship to dumb idols, that had ears but could not hear, and mouths but could not speak, Ps. 115:5, 6. Miserable abjectness of mind! And those who despised these gross conceptions of the vulgar yet countenanced them by their practice. O dismal state of Gentilism! Could the Spirit of God be among such stupid idolators, or they be influenced by it? How did the prince of this world triumph in the blindness of mankind! How thick a mist had he cast over their minds!

III. He shows them how they might discern those gifts that were from the Spirit of God, true spiritual gifts: No man, speaking by the Spirit, calls Jesus accursed. Thus did both Jews and Gentiles: they blasphemed him as an impostor, and execrated his name, and deemed it abominable. And yet many Jews, who were exorcists and magicians, went about, pretending to work wonders by the Spirit of God (vid. Lightfoot’s Horae in loc.), and many among the Gentiles pretended to inspiration.

Now the apostle tells them none could act under the influence, nor by the power, of the Spirit of God, who disowned and blasphemed Christ: for the Spirit of God bore uncontrollable witness to Christ by prophecy, miracles, his resurrection from the dead, the success of his doctrine among men, and its effect upon them; and could never so far contradict itself as to declare him accursed. And on the other hand no man could say Jesus was the Lord (that is, live by this faith, and work miracles to prove it), but it must be by the Holy Ghost. To own this truth before men, and maintain it to the death, and live under the influence of it, could not be done without the sanctification of the Holy Ghost. No man can call Christ Lord, with a believing subjection to him and dependence upon him, unless that faith be wrought by the Holy Ghost. No man can confess this truth in the day of trial but by the Holy Ghost animating and encouraging him.

Note, We have as necessary a dependence on the Spirit’s operation and influence for our sanctification and perseverance as on the mediation of Christ for our reconciliation and acceptance with God: and no man could confirm this truth with a miracle but by the Holy Ghost. No evil spirit would lend assistance, if it were in his power, to spread a doctrine and religion so ruinous to the devil’s kingdom. The substance of what the apostle asserts and argues here is that whatever pretences there were to inspiration or miracles, among those who were enemies to Christianity, they could not be from the Spirit of God; but no man could believe this with his heart, nor prove with a miracle that Jesus was Christ, but by the Holy Ghost: so that the extraordinary operations and powers among them did all proceed from the Spirit of God. He adds,

IV. These spiritual gifts, though proceeding from the same Spirit, are yet various. They have one author and original, but are themselves of various kinds. A free cause may produce variety of effects; and the same giver may bestow various gifts, v. 4.

There are diversities of gifts, such as revelations, tongues, prophecy, interpretations of tongues; but the same Spirit. There are differences of administrations, or different offices, and officers to discharge them, different ordinances and institutions (see v. 28–30), but the same Lord, who appointed all, v. 6. There are diversities of operations, or miraculous powers, called energeµmata dynameoµn (v. 10), as here energeµmata, but it is the same God that worketh all in all. There are various gifts, administrations, and operations, but all proceed from one God, one Lord, one Spirit; that is, from Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, the spring and origin of all spiritual blessings and bequests: all issue from the same fountain; all have the same author.

However different they may be in themselves, in this they agree; all are from God. And several of the kinds are here specified, v. 8–10. Several persons had their several gifts, some one, some another, all from and by the same Spirit.

To one was given the word of wisdom; that is, say some, a knowledge of the mysteries of the gospel, and ability to explain them, an exact understanding of the design, nature, and doctrines, of the Christian religion. Others say an uttering of grave sentences, like Solomon’s proverbs. Some confine this word of wisdom to the revelations made to and by the apostles.—

To another the word of knowledge, by the same Spirit; that is, say some, the knowledge of mysteries (ch. 2:13): wrapped up in the prophecies, types, and histories of the Old Testament: say others, a skill and readiness to give advice and counsel in perplexed cases.—

To another faith, by the same Spirit; that is, the faith of miracles, or a faith in the divine power and promise, whereby they were enabled to trust God in any emergency, and go on in the way of their duty, and own and profess the truths of Christ, whatever was the difficulty or danger.—

To another the gift of healing, by the same Spirit; that is, healing the sick, either by laying on of hands, or anointing with oil, or with a bare word.—

To another the working of miracles; the efficacies of powers, energeµmata dynameoµn, such as raising the dead, restoring the blind to sight, giving speech to the dumb, hearing to the deaf, and the use of limbs to the lame.—

To another prophecy, that is, ability to foretel future events, which is the more usual sense of prophecy; or to explain scripture by a peculiar gift of the Spirit. See ch. 14:24.—

To another the discerning of Spirits, power to distinguish between true and false prophets, or to discern the real and internal qualifications of any person for an office, or to discover the inward workings of the mind by the Holy Ghost, as Peter did those of Ananias, Acts 5:3.—

To another divers kinds of tongues, or ability to speak languages by inspiration.—

To another the interpretation of tongues, or ability to render foreign languages readily and properly into their own.

With such variety of spiritual gifts were the first ministers and churches blessed.

V. The end for which these gifts were bestowed: The manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal, v. 7. The Spirit was manifested by the exercise of these gifts; his influence and interest appeared in them. But they were not distributed for the mere honour and advantage of those who had them, but for the benefit of the church, to edify the body, and spread and advance the gospel. Note, Whatever gifts God confers on any man, he confers them that he may do good with them, whether they be common or spiritual.

The outward gifts of his bounty are to be improved for his glory, and employed in doing good to others. No man has them merely for himself. They are a trust put into his hands, to profit withal; and the more he profits others with them, the more abundantly will they turn to his account in the end, Phil. 4:17. Spiritual gifts are bestowed, that men may with them profit the church and promote Christianity. They are not given for show, but for service; not for pomp and ostentation, but for edification; not to magnify those that have them, but to edify others.

VI. The measure and proportion in which they are given: All these worketh one and the same Spirit, dividing to every man as he will. It is according to the sovereign pleasure of the donor. What more free than a gift? And shall not the Spirit of God do what he will with his own? May he not give to what persons he pleases, and in what proportion he pleases; one gift to one man, and another to another; to one more, and another fewer, as he thinks fit? Is he not the best judge how his own purpose shall be served, and his own donatives bestowed? It is not as men will, nor as they may think fit, but as the Spirit pleases.

Note, The Holy Ghost is a divine person. He works divine effects and divides divine gifts a he will, by his own power, and according to his own pleasure, without dependence or control. But though he distributes these gifts freely and uncontrollably, they are intended by him, not for private honour and advantage, but for public benefit, for the edification of the body, the church.

joy4Him2day
February 6th, 2004, 09:16 PM
Matthew Henry is a great commentator, but like all of them, it is a lot of their opinion.....Matthew Henry does not believe that speaking in tongues is for today......so that is his opinion, or interpretation, not necessarily, the truth.....
:):

Patty T
February 6th, 2004, 09:22 PM
Hi joy :wave

While that may be true, from reading scripture I don't see where everyone has all the gifts, or that you must have a certain gift to be a contributing Christian to the Body of Christ.

What I got out of this was I shouldn't expect everyone in the Body to be operating with all the same gifts - the Holy Spirit has given them as He sees fit. Just because someone doesn't have a particular gift, doesn't mean they are missing something -

Thanks for responding !!!

God Bless,

Patty


:):

Mongoose60
February 6th, 2004, 10:11 PM
It would be amazing if a person could have all the gifts,but I don't see this taking place though.I have just a few,and I do pray that God will give me more.

onsolidrock
February 7th, 2004, 06:54 AM
Spiritual gifts are definitly from God. Who recieves which gift or gifts is under His control, not ours. Gifts are intended to be used in the Church for the benefit of all.

Gifts from God are distributed evenly throughout all churches
They are not limited to any one type of church.

The idea that some of the gifts were for the early church and ceased by the end of the first century certainly fits the context of 1 Cor 13 better than anything else that I've seen. If all of the gifts are still active today then we should see all of the gifts in every church regardless of what that church believes.

Patty T
February 7th, 2004, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by onsolidrock
Spiritual gifts are definitly from God. Who recieves which gift or gifts is under His control, not ours. Gifts are intended to be used in the Church for the benefit of all.

Gifts from God are distributed evenly throughout all churches
They are not limited to any one type of church.

The idea that some of the gifts were for the early church and ceased by the end of the first century certainly fits the context of 1 Cor 13 better than anything else that I've seen. If all of the gifts are still active today then we should see all of the gifts in every church regardless of what that church believes.

I don't see where any of the gifts have stopped being distributed. Scripture never indicates that the Holy Spirit will eventually only distribute some of them. I disagree, respectfully, that 1 Corin 13 is about gifts ceasing to be given.

I believe all of the gifts are active today, but it's quite possible unless a believer continues to grow in their relationship with God and their knowledge of the Word of God, they may never know or understand what gift(s) they have. Also, I believe our gifts are developed as we mature.

Thanks for responding :wave

Patty

Whosoever
February 7th, 2004, 11:53 AM
Just my opinion of course, but in my experience I'd say Patty and Joy are both right: none of the gifts have "ended", but I've yet to see a single person with all of the spiritual gifts. I think God gives us each spiritual gifts according to His plans for us; that way our gifts compliment each other in doing His work on earth rather than compete with each other.

Patty T
February 7th, 2004, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by Whosoever
Just my opinion of course, but in my experience I'd say Patty and Joy are both right: none of the gifts have "ended", but I've yet to see a single person with all of the spiritual gifts. I think God gives us each spiritual gifts according to His plans for us; that way our gifts compliment each other in doing His work on earth rather than compete with each other.

I agree - I've not met anyone who has all of them. I believe the purpose is to edify the Body - each member has a part to play and a gift to contribute.

Thanks for responding :):

Patty

Mongoose60
February 7th, 2004, 08:52 PM
Now that we are within the End Times,these giftings should become more bold and clear to many.

stephanne909
February 8th, 2004, 07:13 PM
timely thread for me....i have been studying the gifts...and my heart is heavy..cause we dont see much of any of them...why?

Nowhere does it say the gifts ended...Jesus said those who believe will heal the sick, speak in tongues,cast out demons etc...Mark...16:17-18

i think alot of us put limits of what we THINK God can do..He still gives these gifts and we need to be praying to receive them.

Paul said to desire the good gifts.

I have heard alot of talk on these boards about people saying prophecy doesnt happen anymore..or healing...

thats not true....we just have to be open to what God has for us.

My husbnad has prayed over me and I have been healed of panic attacks...a tumor...depression.


God still works through us...why would He stop....we have His spirit living in us...we have to use our faith to open up these gifts

saying they dont happen..is of course...the reason they dont...you have to believe in them FIRST before they will happen.


anyway...sorry for rambling....my point is God still gives these gifts...we are told in scripture..not to quench the spirit.

onsolidrock
February 8th, 2004, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by stephanne909
[B]timely thread for me....i have been studying the gifts...and my heart is heavy..cause we dont see much of any of them...why?

Nowhere does it say the gifts ended...Jesus said those who believe will heal the sick, speak in tongues,cast out demons etc...Mark...16:17-18

If Mark 16;17-18 were for today then a missionary could go to a foreign country and preach the gospel by speaking in tongues and not have to learn the language. We could lay our hands on the sick and all would recover. We wouldn't need hospitals.

i think alot of us put limits of what we THINK God can do..He still gives these gifts and we need to be praying to receive them.

He still gives some of the gifts.

Paul said to desire the good gifts.

I have heard alot of talk on these boards about people saying prophecy doesnt happen anymore..or healing...

thats not true....we just have to be open to what God has for us.

Prophecy was either predicting future events or The declaration of that which cannot be known by natural means. Either way it stopped when the Bible was completed. because otherwise we would still be adding to the Bible today.


saying they dont happen..is of course...the reason they dont...you have to believe in them FIRST before they will happen.

Not true. It is the Holy Spirit who gives the gifts to who He wants to give them to. We do not control which gifts we recieve. All gifts that are available today are found in every Body of Believers

Mongoose60
February 8th, 2004, 11:51 PM
Can you just imagine as to the strong signs and wonders that will come about during the Trib!We haven't seen nothing yet.For what happens then,will just amaze everyone.

7Rock
February 9th, 2004, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by onsolidrock
Prophecy was either predicting future events or The declaration of that which cannot be known by natural means. Either way it stopped when the Bible was completed. because otherwise we would still be adding to the Bible today.

The Bible clearly says that their will be those who prophecy in the end times.
Why do you consider that "adding" to the Bible?

jezuzfreak
February 9th, 2004, 04:49 AM
Let me try to clear the fog by giving ya'll some practical truth.

1. There are three types of gifts but one gifter which is the Holy Spirit.

Equipping ministry gifts (Eph 4)
Apostle, prophet, evangelist, and pastor/teacher

Body ministry gifts (Romans 12)
exhorter,benevolence,teacher,helps,administration,giving, and hospitality

Manifestation gifts (I Cor. 12)
word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, miracles, prophecy, gifts of healings, discerning of spirits, tongues, interpretation of tongues.

These can placed into two catagories:

Body ministry gifts and manifestation gifts

Ministry gifts, (equipping as well as body ministry gifts), have 5 characterisitics
1. They are permanent
2. They are related to natural gifts
3. They determine the position one holds in the body of Christ
4. They are in actuality gifted persons
5. Each believer has to identify and develop their ministry gift

Manifestation gifts differ in characterisitics in that they are "surprises" or outshinings of the Holy Spirit
1. They are temporary-No one possesses these gifts. They are temporary outshings of the Spirit. When the manifestation is over the person used is no longer in possession of the gift.
2. They have NO relation to a persons natural ability
3. Have little or no relationship to the position one holds in the Body of Christ.
4. The gift is emphasized not the person
5. The body is to receive and rejoice in the "surprises" of the Spirit.

If you want to learn more about Spiritual gifts Email me and I will be glad to help you understand them in more clarity and depth.

JEZUZFREAK ><>;):

onsolidrock
February 9th, 2004, 06:00 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 7Rock
The Bible clearly says that their will be those who prophecy in the end times.
Why do you consider that "adding" to the Bible? [/QUOTE

We are close to the end times. We are not in the end times. The end times is the tribulation period of at least seven years after the Rapture.

Prophecy was revelation from God to the Church, not to individuals

Patty T
February 9th, 2004, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by onsolidrock
We are close to the end times. We are not in the end times. The end times is the tribulation period of at least seven years after the Rapture.

Prophecy was revelation from God to the Church, not to individuals

Why do you say the end times is only for the tribulation period? Is there scripture somewhere to support this?

Here is the Greek for Prophecy osr:


Lexicon Results for propheteia (Strong's 4394)

Pronunciation Guide propheteia {prof-ay-ti'-ah}

TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 6:781,952 from 4396 ("prophecy")
Part of Speech n f

Outline of Biblical Usage

1) prophecy

a) a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden; esp. by foretelling future events

b) Used in the NT of the utterance of OT prophets

1) of the prediction of events relating to Christ's kingdom and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations and admonitions pertaining to it, the spirit of prophecy, the divine mind, to which the prophetic faculty is due

2) of the endowment and speech of the Christian teachers called prophets

3) the gifts and utterances of these prophets, esp. of the predictions of the works of which, set apart to teach the gospel, will accomplish for the kingdom of Christ



I believe prophecy is most certainly given to/for individuals.

Whosoever
February 9th, 2004, 01:34 PM
Patty's right. And we certainly are in the end times. They started when Yeshua rose from the dead. That's why the trouble, persecution, martyrdom etc. started after He went back to heaven. The 70th Week is included in those "end times", but it doesn't fill the end times exclusively. Of course, with man's finite mind it's difficult for anyone to fully understand such a concept, and I don't think any of us ever will until we all get to heaven. But when He said "this generation will not pass away until these things have happened", He included the Apostles. That's a pretty good indication they were to be included in the End Times burden of going out to all the world to preach "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand".

7Rock
February 9th, 2004, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by onsolidrock
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 7Rock
The Bible clearly says that their will be those who prophecy in the end times.
Why do you consider that "adding" to the Bible? [/QUOTE

We are close to the end times. We are not in the end times. The end times is the tribulation period of at least seven years after the Rapture.

Prophecy was revelation from God to the Church, not to individuals

1 Cor. 14:1
Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.

1 Cor. 14:39
Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

Read all of 1 Cor. 14 and tell me there is no prophecy in the Church Age.
God says two or three prophets should speak at every church gathering.

Tell me what you think this chapter is saying.

Brad MetalMan
February 9th, 2004, 05:54 PM
Forgive me for being cynical, but just scanning this thread I saw that the original post was about whether Tongues is the evidence of the Spirit Baptism or not.

This thread was not a 'Are these gifts for today or not'? Of course they are. There is nothing the Bible that indicates otherwise, as I see it. The only text that could even be used to support a doctrine like that is l Cor 13, which teaches the gifts continue until Christ's return.

My church, the Assemblies of God, teaches the tongues are the evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit. I am a little iffy on this one. I see evidence in scripture to support this, but I have to ask, if the baptism in the Spirit evidenced by tongues is the power to witness, what about people who have never claimed to speak in tongues like Billy Graham, who have been powerful witnesses.

Then again, the AoG is less than 100 years old and is one of the largest protestant denominations in the world, almost as large as denominations that have been around hundreds of years longer. So who knows?

Patty T
February 9th, 2004, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by Brad MetalMan
Forgive me for being cynical, but just scanning this thread I saw that the original post was about whether Tongues is the evidence of the Spirit Baptism or not.

This thread was not a 'Are these gifts for today or not'? Of course they are. There is nothing the Bible that indicates otherwise, as I see it. The only text that could even be used to support a doctrine like that is l Cor 13, which teaches the gifts continue until Christ's return.

My church, the Assemblies of God, teaches the tongues are the evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit. I am a little iffy on this one. I see evidence in scripture to support this, but I have to ask, if the baptism in the Spirit evidenced by tongues is the power to witness, what about people who have never claimed to speak in tongues like Billy Graham, who have been powerful witnesses.

Then again, the AoG is less than 100 years old and is one of the largest protestant denominations in the world, almost as large as denominations that have been around hundreds of years longer. So who knows?

Hi Brad :wave

I'm the one who started the thread.

I have been hearing for the last several years that the evidence of the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues. I do not believe this to be true.

Tongues are listed as one of the spiritual gifts that are administered by the Holy Spirit. From what I see, not everyone gets all the gifts, nor does everyone get the same gifts.

I know my husband is filled with the Holy Spirit, but he does not speak in tongues. He does, however, have evidence of other spiritual gifts listed.

My purpose in starting the thread was to voice my findings on what scripture says about the gifts, who the giver is, and what we are supposed to do with them.

We have attended an AoG church in the past, and the experience was not very positive with everyone speaking (rather loudly I might add) in tongues at the same time. None were interpreted either. Remember where Paul says if unbelievers walk in and you're doing this, won't they think you've lost your mind? Well, that's exactly how it appeared.

Thanks for contributing to the conversation!!

God Bless,

Patty
:):

Brad MetalMan
February 9th, 2004, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by Patty T
Hi Brad :wave

I'm the one who started the thread.

I have been hearing for the last several years that the evidence of the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues. I do not believe this to be true.

Tongues are listed as one of the spiritual gifts that are administered by the Holy Spirit. From what I see, not everyone gets all the gifts, nor does everyone get the same gifts.

I know my husband is filled with the Holy Spirit, but he does not speak in tongues. He does, however, have evidence of other spiritual gifts listed.

My purpose in starting the thread was to voice my findings on what scripture says about the gifts, who the giver is, and what we are supposed to do with them.

We have attended an AoG church in the past, and the experience was not very positive with everyone speaking (rather loudly I might add) in tongues at the same time. None were interpreted either. Remember where Paul says if unbelievers walk in and you're doing this, won't they think you've lost your mind? Well, that's exactly how it appeared.

Thanks for contributing to the conversation!!

God Bless,

Patty
:):


Hello Patty.

Now I can say this-Many Pentecostals would say there is no contradiction between the Pentecostal doctrine of Spirit Baptism evidenced with tongues and saying that all do not have the gift of tongues. This is because the gift of tongues and Spirit Baptism are two different things, and Spirit Baptism is not the reception of the spiritual gift of tongues. Now whether you or I buy this argument will be up to us.

My best advice-being that I am a seminary student right now-is that you need to search the scriptures and see what they say to you. Don't take my word for anything or anyone else's. Find a church that will accomdate your beliefs.

When it comes to AoG churches, I have found that there are two types of churches within the denomination. These are the hyper-Pentecostal and the more reserved. I stick with the more reserved ones, which are very similar to Baptist churches except we believe in the charismatic gifts of the Spirit. It sounds like to me that you went to a hyper-Pentecostal style AoG churches, which are not my cup of tea either. I probably would understand where you are coming from.

The denomination has polarized because many people in the church feel that the church is no longer Pentecostal enough, and so they get a little out of hand trying to make it "Pentecostal enough" or there are others like me who believe in the gifts of the spirit but are trying to reform the aspects of Pentecostalism that have lead to unbiblical and disorderly practices and beliefs in the church.

7Rock
February 9th, 2004, 10:10 PM
The big black mark against these hyper-charismatic pentacostal church`s, is that they get out of control "displaying" these gifts.

The bible clearly says it is not from the Holy Spirit if it is out of control.

onsolidrock
February 10th, 2004, 11:06 AM
Patty T

Why do you say the end times is only for the tribulation period? Is there scripture somewhere to support this?

Daniel 9;24-27
[DAN 9:27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

There are 70 weeks in Daniel's prophecy. Each day is a year. 69 weeks have taken place. 1 week is yet to come. 1 week is seven years, the tribulation period after the Rapture. There is a gap between the 69th week and the seventieth week called the Church Age in which we are now living. The Rapture ends the Church age and begins the last week or seven years of Tribulation or "end Times."


7Rock

Read all of 1 Cor. 14 and tell me there is no prophecy in the Church Age.
God says two or three prophets should speak at every church gathering.

Tell me what you think this chapter is saying.

I read all of 1 Cor. 14. There is no prophecy today. This chapter was written about 54 A.D. before the Bible was completed about A.D.96, At the time Paul wrote this letter all of the gifts were active.
[1CO 13:13] And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
These three continue after the three gifts have stopped. Hope is looking forward to something happening with expectation and confidence. What event are we looking forward to? Will hope be realised at that event? Wouldn't the three gifts have to stop before this event? If the event [hope] is the Coming of Christ at the Rapture, Titus 2;13 when did the three gifts stop?

7Rock
The big black mark against these hyper-charismatic pentacostal church`s, is that they get out of control "displaying" these gifts.

The bible clearly says it is not from the Holy Spirit if it is out of control.

[1CO 14:33] For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

If it not from the Holy Spirit, what spirit is it from?

Patty T
February 10th, 2004, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by onsolidrock
Daniel 9;24-27
[DAN 9:27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

There are 70 weeks in Daniel's prophecy. Each day is a year. 69 weeks have taken place. 1 week is yet to come. 1 week is seven years, the tribulation period after the Rapture. There is a gap between the 69th week and the seventieth week called the Church Age in which we are now living. The Rapture ends the Church age and begins the last week or seven years of Tribulation or "end Times."


Maybe I should have used a different term.

I see the "end-times" as similar to the "last days"

I believe we are in the "last days" even before the tribulation starts.

Here's some interesting scriptures that tell us about them:

Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, [that] the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.


Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:


2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.


Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


Jam 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.


2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,


Sounds like this "last days" period has been going on for a while.

Ltanner09
February 10th, 2004, 12:32 PM
I have been hearing for the last several years that the evidence of the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues. I do not believe this to be true.

Patty T, you again?? :lol

Tongues is ONE gift that the Holy Spirit gives, but not necessarily to everyone.

1 Cor. 12:7-10 (KJV)
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

[8] For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

[9] To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

[10] To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

Patty T
February 10th, 2004, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Ltanner09
Patty T, you again?? :lol

Tongues is ONE gift that the Holy Spirit gives, but not necessarily to everyone.

1 Cor. 12:7-10 (KJV)
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

[8] For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

[9] To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

[10] To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

Hey Lt :wave

Long time no chat with :laugh

You are right on the money - I did some checking with scripture because when I first came to know Jesus, I was taught that unless you spoke in tongues, you did not have the Holy Spirit.

Come to find out, it is ONE of the gifts bestowed by the Holy Spirit. Not everyone has this. Also, I am trying to understand and learn about the difference between the gift of tongues, and the "prayer language" that some seem to hold to.

So far, I can't find anything about a "prayer language" other than the Holy Spirit intercedes for us with "groanings that can't be uttered". I'm not seeing this as the same thing as a prayer language.

Nice to see ya again brother!!

Thanks for contributing to the thread :thumb

Patty
:):