If you commit suicide.... [Archive] - Prophecy Fellowship Forums

Rom831

January 14th, 2004, 02:45 PM

This is not covered and only up for opinion. My pastor and I disagree on this as well. But I look at it and say that we are told to repent and be baptised. To repent means to turn from our sins. Most of the time this repentance is a condition of our hearts. However, what about in suicide?

If you kill yourself, which is the sin of murder among others, how can you repent? You are dead. How can you turn from your sin? You are dead. How can you even have repentance in your heart if your heart no longer beats?

Further, If you could kill yourself and miss out on the rest of the pain of this world and go immediately to heaven, why not? Heck, sign me up, I wanna go!! Wouldn't that just be an open invitation? Things arte tough, kill yourself and go to paradise!

I have been suicidal many times in my life - not contemplating, but sitting with a gun pointed at my head. And I just cannot buy that had I pulled the trigger, I would not be going through the pain I currently am going through but would be in paradise singing praises at the foot of my Lord. And honestly, that one thouight was the ONLY thing that stopped me from pulling the trigger when my wife left me was the fear of not being with God. Maybe that is why I hold to this belife, for it literally saved my life and may someday do so again.

Bless...ArtS

KrispyKritter

January 14th, 2004, 02:49 PM

Only 30? Do you realize that the Bible records Jesus' birth... then a an incedent when he was about 12... and then nothing until he was just over 30 yrs old? He basically lived in obscurity for 30 years. People referred to Him as "Joseph's son" when He was 31 yrs old! I'm 36 and no one refers to me as "Dave's son". And He was God's Son!

Friend... the best is yet to come. Dont give up!

Raphael

January 14th, 2004, 03:03 PM

I'm 55! I met the love of my life when I was 50! If you had told me this would happen 30 years ago, I would have had great difficulty believing it. Abraham had Isaac when he was 100 and Sarah was 90.

The quality of life seldom relates to physical age! Each day I am closer to the Lord. My prayer life is more real. If you had told me this 30 years ago, I would have said, "Nah - I'll just be an old curmudgeon by 40."

I was born with a hole in my heart (atrial septal defect) the size of a "45 cent piece". If I had not been born in this time of medical technology, I wouldn't have lived. God is in control! Let Him handle things! Know why? (This came to me after years of intensive study, prayer, and deep meditation:)

GOD IS SMARTER THAN ME

:):

John Tyson

January 14th, 2004, 03:22 PM

Grace and peace to you all.

One day when studing whether Judas committed suicide by hanging himself or throwing himself from a height, a commentator stated that a Jew who committed suicide was considered cursed and his corpse would be hung on a tree. This would indicate that during the 1st century, suicide was considered something that would curse a person. Also during that period of history, the commentator said that the term used of a person who committed suicide by any means was, "He hung himself," even if later they didn't physically hang his corpse on a tree.

Is a person cursed if he commits suicide? I suspect if the person was lost, it doesn't matter. If the person was saved, it'll be just another of his sins that were covered by the blood of Christ.

God bless,
John

AnotherOldGuy

January 14th, 2004, 03:56 PM

If you kill yourself, which is the sin of murder among others, how can you repent?

An interesting item:

Do did know that Paul never used the word 'repent'?

He does say that Christians should confess their sins.

edit:

I take that back. He does use the word repent when talking to unbelievers in Acts. It is not used in his epistles, however.

Patty T

January 14th, 2004, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Only 30? Do you realize that the Bible records Jesus' birth... then a an incedent when he was about 12... and then nothing until he was just over 30 yrs old? He basically lived in obscurity for 30 years. People referred to Him as "Joseph's son" when He was 31 yrs old! I'm 36 and no one refers to me as "Dave's son". And He was God's Son!

Friend... the best is yet to come. Dont give up!

Krispy is right.... and at 36, he's just beginning to live life!!!!

Trust me, life is like fine wine - it only gets better with age :laugh

KrispyKritter

January 14th, 2004, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by Patty T
Krispy is right.... and at 36, he's just beginning to live life!!!!

Trust me, life is like fine wine - it only gets better with age :laugh

Patty should know! (She's almost to the vinegar stage!) :thumb

coffeehubby

January 14th, 2004, 05:01 PM

The effects of suicide on those you'd leave behind are mind boggling. This is not something to consider.

Raphael

January 14th, 2004, 05:08 PM

That reminded me - in Dicken's "A Christmas Carol", Scrooge was allowed to see the "souls" of those who had committed suicide - maybe I'm wrong about their manner of death, but the point was, they were in torment because they were forced to see the travails of the (living) innocents. Their torment? -their permanent inability to intervene, for good, in the affairs of those needing their help. Suicide - a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

toadblossom

January 14th, 2004, 05:16 PM

"I wonder that too. If I were to do something like that, who's to say I wouldn't meet someone that really loves me tomorrow or later this year... Then again, I also think my life is done. Depends on which minute of the day it is....

I'm almost 30. I feel like it's too late for me to do anything with my life."

Wow... I don't know you and what your relationship is to the Lord, but you already have someone who LOVES you very much.

Perhaps if you don't know what to do with your life from here, you ought to turn it over completely to God and see what He can do. If anyone had told me then (at 30) what I'm doing now (at 41) I'd have told them they were Nuts!!!

savedandhappy1

January 14th, 2004, 05:29 PM

I believe the only one who would want us to comment suicide is that great deceiver, the devil. How happy he is when we are not here to spread the word of God or because of how we died to lead someone else away from the one true God.

Do I know if it will keep you out of heaven, NO I don't know. Do I want to try it and find out, NO. It isn't like taking a car for a test drive to decide which one to buy, before making up your mind.
You have so much of your life ahead of you, if Jesus tarries.

Wouldn't it be bad if you did it, and the rapture was the next day or minute, and you get to see it from Hell.

I know it sound will want someone would say, but pray, seek His face, and then be still and listen for that still small voice.

Will be praying for you.

Love in Christ,
Kathy

BHiles

January 14th, 2004, 05:36 PM

Remember when thirty seemed so old
Now lookin' back, it's just a steppin' stone
To where we are,
where we've been
Said we'd do it all again
Remember when

From "Remember When" - Alan Jackson

SeaDreamer

January 14th, 2004, 05:53 PM

I was just wondering (and praying for) Babylon the other day. I'm glad to see you're still with us and I really mean that. :wave

Joshua

January 14th, 2004, 05:55 PM

I believe suicide is intentional murder and subsequently a sin.
I believe God gave you life and God will take it when he is ready.

Suicide is a selfish endevour by an irrational person, who dosn't realize the effect they will have on others through their actions.

On the lighter side, someone said... God will ask you why you showed up ahead of schedule. I too have wondered what would God say if I was raptured up and had a beer in one hand and a cigar in the other.....

I will pray for you, I too have been there and I know others prayed for me.....Apparently it helped.../

watchdogR63

January 14th, 2004, 06:12 PM

I have discussed this topic of heavan after suicide with a trusted friend. I think I agree with him...

Can a real Christian committ suicide? Sure pew fillers can, but born again christians? I am not so sure.

humbleone

January 14th, 2004, 07:03 PM

As someone who has attempted suicide on more than one occasion, I feel compelled to speak out and say please DON'T do it! This is one act that you can't "take back" or make better in any way. Once it's done, it's done! You won't wake up the next day and still be alive again (on Earth I mean). And you CAN'T change what you've done. Think of the permanence of suicide for a moment.

It is FOREVER. Might things have gotten better? You will never know because you've abandoned this life (even though I realize it may be extremely painful to endure). Do you really want to take a chance with this? What if some suicides really do go to Hell? Do you want to be the one to find that out? I don't think so!

Life can be hell, yes, believe me I know. But it does end. I would rather suffer here on earth in the body and mind, than kill myself now and possibly have to suffer FOREVER after that. I don't know that I would, but I don't want to take the chance!

Also, I am exactly 30 myself and have often felt the same way you described. But u know what (and I never thought I would ever say this)? I honestly believe my life is just beginning! I have a tendency to think back on when I was younger and how horrible life was for me and wish that things had been different. But I think what some have said here is true, that life can get better with age, that just because your younger years were rotten and filled with agony, does NOT mean that the very rest of your life is going to be that way, particularly if you are a believer and have Jesus in your heart and life. I can't even believe these words are coming out of my mouth/heart, me, the girl who thought and obssessed of suicide just about *every single day* from the age of 14 until 29 and some of 30! I still do not know why I was tested as severely as I was or for what purpose, but one thing that has proven true for me personally is God's promise in Romans I think" "All things work together for good according to those who have been called to/for His purpose." ALL things, not just some things! And especially the bad things! Think of the story of Joseph, in Genesis. What an inspiring life! His story gives me hope and I pray it will for you also. Please consider rereading about Joseph. There is also an excellent movie by the same name that you may be able to locate at a library.

Lastly, people do love you and they do care. You might not think so, but your life touches a lot more people than you know. And of course, God loves you very much as well. That might not even mean anything to you, especially on the very hard days, but He is there... trust me. And if you can't trust me, please try and trust the Lord. He is there, He loves you, He hears you.

God bless,

humbleone

Patty T

January 14th, 2004, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Patty should know! (She's almost to the vinegar stage!) :thumb

:rofl :rofl

:boink - just wait Krispy, just wait

:wave

Elizabeth_S

January 14th, 2004, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by watchdogR63
I have discussed this topic of heavan after suicide with a trusted friend. I think I agree with him...

Can a real Christian committ suicide? Sure pew fillers can, but born again christians? I am not so sure.

this would mean that any christian professing to be suffering from severe depression is lying. cause Severe depression can lead to suicide and that means no christian ever has any real illness.

depression is a disease. Ever see someone suffer dibilitating effects of depression?

I believe that a person who commits suicide is no different than anyone who loses their focus on Christ and stumbles. the consequences are just final.

And it would also mean that a person who refuses to stop preaching Christ and know they are going to be killed are committing suicide, does it mean that that person is going to hell, lost forever, saying something they KNOW will get them killed?

Just something to think about. No one knows the mind of a severely depressed person, but God.

humbleone

January 14th, 2004, 07:21 PM

Just something to think about. No one knows the mind of a severely depressed person, but God.

YES :thumb

It is hurtful to suggest that someone who commits suicide could not really be a "real" Christian. My sufferings were in the extreme and I had every reason to take my life (in a human frame of mind). I seriously doubt most people would have hung in there as long as I did (and largely because I really was afraid of what would happen after I killed myself). Anyway, I was and am a true Christian and I've been really hurt in times past when it was suggested otherwise, or what else could explain the tremendous pain I was subject to? Kind of reminds me of Job's friends' advice and suggestions: well-meaning but misguided.

-humbleone

Joseph Eley

January 14th, 2004, 08:38 PM

If you believe in your heart you will be saved.

Suicidal thoughts are like a mental illness, you cannot control them alone. Ask God, pray, keep praying. He has a plan for everyone and he wants you to seek him out. Its never to late to serve him. :): If you believe in Jesus Christ then believe he can help you.

God is great. :nod

Stephanie

January 14th, 2004, 08:58 PM

Babylonrising,

The only way I can answer your question is to tell you a little story. Yes, this is a partial thread-jacking, but it's on topic, so I don't think it counts as a true thread-jacking.

When I was a teenager, I had a serious boyfriend, and we were engaged to be married. I'm nearly 40 years old now, and I can still say quite honestly and seriously that it was the truest, deepest love I've ever known, and that I am certain that we would be married happily today if he was still alive. However, he committed suicide. I received a phone call from him just prior to the suicide, and he told me what he was about to do and that he deeply loved me - and then he was gone. I have never been the same, and I never will be.

I won't tell the whole story because that's not the point here - except to say that apparently (and this is an educated guess, since he is gone now and I have no true evidence) he was victim of massive depressive side effects of a medication he was taking for severe acne (this particular drug has been associated with many suicides since that time, and my understanding is that it is either off the market now, or has been considered for possible removal, since many families have filed lawsuits against the company. I personally believe that's the culprit, because Lee was *fine* until he began acne treatment, aside from a few other things like divorce in the family - which he was coping with and I know for certain he was dealing with).

I know that Lee was feeling such pain that he made a decision based on that pain rather than what the results of his death would be, and without realizing that his pain wouldn't even have a chance to be resolved if he died and wasn't here to experience that improvement. But I *know* that if he realized the aftermath of his death, he wouldn't have done what he did - because his death changed the lives of everyone connected to him, just as his life touched so many people's lives. I also know that because he was a Christian, he wasn't thinking straight - he was against suicide, but did this anyway - so that's additional evidence that he wasn't himself. Still, none of these thoughts bring him back.

Part of me says, "God knows he wasn't himself," and that God would forgive him. Yet I also know what scripture says, and the fact that God is in charge, not man. God determines when you go into God's presence and when you begin your life in heaven; you don't get to change the travel plans. God has serious, serious rules about life and death, about the taking of a life (whether your own or someone else's), and about living your life as a representative of God and leading others to Christ - which you can't do if you give up on life. God gives life to us as a gift, a gift of love, because we are *needed* - we have purpose. There aren't words for it, except to say that God has given us life as a gift, yet *we* are the true gift to God. He puts us on earth because there are plans for us, ways we are to do His Will and do beautiful things, whether we realize it or not; and, if we reject that, we are denying ourselves and our loved ones something precious and holy... but we're also denying God the joy of watching us grow, learn, teach others, share our ideas and dreams, and show the world that lives can be touched in a single moment. Even a simple hello at a grocery store might change another person's life; if you aren't there to say that greeting, that's just one example of a void created by the loss of your presence. Maybe that ungreeted shopper, or that old woman you aren't there to joke with, (etc.) will have their lives and paths deeply changed because they were intended to connect with you in some small way.

Even if you think you are insignificant, or that your life holds no true meaning, or that everything is too difficult and you're trapped by troubles and you see no way out - there truly is hope, and life can become and will become better again. Even the darkest situations can turn around, and you can take that situation and use it to teach others (and there are many people in this world who want to learn the deep lessons that you have to teach - they'll appear throughout your life, and you'll find the teachable, sharable moments. Then you'll be glad you're here, because you'll feel God's presence by your side and in the eyes of other people, because you'll be taking part in the life God intended for you).

Nobody can tell you exactly what God would have to say about suicide; we can only tell you what scripture teaches in order to arrive at a conclusion that makes some sort of sense. Only God knows such things. As a woman who lost the love of her life to suicide, I can tell you that I hope that God forgave him and understood - sort of like taking mercy when someone is insane, except that I know that my almost-husband was sane, just depressed, so truthfully I try very hard not to think about what he faced after the choice he made. It's easier for me to deal with it by not thinking about that part; it's just too painful and of course, scary to think about. (See that? I'm afraid to even type a straight answer!)

The short answer is to give a bit of advice: don't let suicide even be an option in your mind. If you feel like those thoughts are lurking, get the very best help possible and if you can't find decent help, or if the help you get seems to be depressing (I've had that happen!), get help from another person/agency until you get true help. Don't give up. You'll come out of this stronger and happier - and you will be glad you didn't throw in the towel. And you'll know that you didn't do something that could never be taken back.

I also tend to think that such struggles are intended to teach you something to prepare you for the amazing ways you can make a difference in the world and in the lives of others - and that maybe another person/people are to make a difference in your life as a part of *their* "difference." We're all here to work together, after all; we're all part of God's plan. You're needed here - He needs you - *we* need you.

watchdogR63

January 14th, 2004, 10:58 PM

The more I think about what you said, the more I think it makes sense. Not trying to be a back peddeler, but I think you are in the right. What if someone chooses to die for the Gospel.. is that suicide.... surely not. I am sorry if I opened healing wounds.

It does make sense though. I am speaking of human depths. You never know what rock bottom can do to a person (key word person; humans) I believe I stand corrected. Thank you humbleone, forgive me.

cktb2793

January 14th, 2004, 11:35 PM

Originally posted by humbleone
YES :thumb

It is hurtful to suggest that someone who commits suicide could not really be a "real" Christian. My sufferings were in the extreme and I had every reason to take my life (in a human frame of mind). I seriously doubt most people would have hung in there as long as I did (and largely because I really was afraid of what would happen after I killed myself). Anyway, I was and am a true Christian and I've been really hurt in times past when it was suggested otherwise, or what else could explain the tremendous pain I was subject to? Kind of reminds me of Job's friends' advice and suggestions: well-meaning but misguided.

-humbleone

No one said that you are not a true Christian if you have considered or even attempted and failed at killing yourself.

WatchdogR63 said:
Originally posted by watchdogR63
Can a real Christian committ suicide? Sure pew fillers can, but born again christians? I am not so sure.

You didn't commit suicide obviously, or you would not be here to post. Therefore, how do you know it wasn't the fact that you are a true Christian and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit that saved you from falling for satan's lie and actually going through with suicide????
Although, I wouldn't attempt it just to see if the Holy Spirit would keep me from accomplishing it either. Because as Jesus said when satan was tempting him, "You shall not put the Lord your God to the test" (Mat 4:7)

I believe that's the point that WatchdogR63 was trying to make. Satan may tempt born again Christians about suicide, but the Holy Spirit will keep them from doing it. Pew fillers on the other hand........

(edited for spelling)

cktb2793

January 14th, 2004, 11:48 PM

Originally posted by watchdogR63
What if someone chooses to die for the Gospel.. is that suicide.... surely not.

If someone tells you to curse God or denounce God or they will kill you, no that is not suicide. The person killing you would be committing murder and you would be a martyr NOT a suicide. If you were to do what they told you to, you would be showing that you were never a true Christian.

definition of suicide from dictionary.com :
su·i·cide ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s-sd)
n. 1.The act or an instance of intentionally killing oneself.
2.The destruction or ruin of one's own interests
3.One who commits suicide.

definition of martyr from dictionary.com :
martyr
\Mar"tyr\, n. [AS., from L. martyr, Gr. ma`rtyr, ma`rtys, prop., a witness; cf. Skr. sm[.r] to remember, E. memory.] 1. One who, by his death, bears witness to the truth of the gospel; one who is put to death for his religion; as, Stephen was the first Christian martyr. --Chaucer.

To be a martyr, signifies only to witness the truth of Christ; but the witnessing of the truth was then so generally attended with persecution, that martyrdom now signifies not only to witness, but to witness by death --South.

2. Hence, one who sacrifices his life, his station, or what is of great value to him, for the sake of principle, or to sustain a cause.

As you can see there is a huge difference between the two.

(edited for spelling and to add:)

I don't know why everytime someone posts about considering suicide it turns into people arguing about why they believe you can commit suicide and still go to Heaven.

Don't you think that telling a person that they can possibly go to Heaven if they commit suicide may actually be giving them the courage they need to actually go through with it????? Especially if they are in a depressed and mixed up state of mind.

Won't you feel guilty if someone commits suicide because you told them they could still go to Heaven if they did? Can you prove 100% for certain by Scripture that you are correct?? No you cannot, just like I cannot prove 100% that they won't go to Heaven.

How awful would it be to be standing in the Bema Seat judgement and find out that people in fact do go to hell for commiting suicide and that someone is there because you helped them to feel they would still go to Heaven if they did it???? I would hate to have Jesus tell me that.

So why take the risk?? Shouldn't we just stick to talking the person out of it, rather than giving reasons why you feel it would be ok to commit suicide and go to Heaven.??......since the Bible doesn't make it 100% clear and you could be wrong, just as much as I could be wrong.

(edited for spelling)

sandy111

January 14th, 2004, 11:59 PM

babylonrising,
I found christian talk zone in the links here (with some help from
another rr member) and it has helped me tremendously,
maybe you would like to check it out!
just went thru a very difficult time this last 6 months,
much like you are feeling but different problems.

if you decide you would like to check it out go to the links
and find the christian talk zone (ctz)

Core Issue there is very wise and answers all sorts of questions and backs it up with the bible.

praying for you.

Vickimac

January 15th, 2004, 08:29 AM

BR, I'm glad you are opening up with the things that are going on that led you to that state. OH How I understand it. I've been right where you are.

One, no one knows for certain a suicides destination. What we think really doesn't matter that much because we aren't the ones who will find out by suicide. Nobody here would be accompanying you. The suicide goes alone, all by himself to face God. But for the sake of argument, say you would go to heaven. Imagine, the very first thing you see is Jesus Christ. What are you going to tell him? That YOUR life was too hard? That YOU suffered too much? You couldn't take it any more? Could you really look at him KNOWING what HIS life here was like and tell him that life wasn't fair to YOU? If you can do that, then you have way more guts than I do.

I'm not trying to minimize what you are going through. I went through it and came close to ending my own life over it. It was by far, the worst valley of my life and like you, I saw no future for myself. 30? ~ I was 42. Where does a 42 year old woman with no self esteem find a whole new life, any kind of life? Especially when the old one started at 16 and was "all" she ever had. I saw no reason to live, had no desire to live and was weary of the agony of even breathing. My marriage was my "everything". (I later learned that that was part of the problem.)

If I had done it, I imagine that God would have given me a glimpse into the future I had thrown away. And I would have been like :eek Because nobody would have ever convinced me I'd be where I am now. Not ME. Maybe other people, but not me. God took me places that I could never have foreseen in my own future. And I am so grateful that he didn't have to "show" me these things after it was too late because I threw them away, but because I endured and let him bring me to them.

So whether a suicide ends up in hell or not, I believe that suicide is not an option. He gives us life, don't throw it away. He has a future planned. Don't take away his chance to show you what he can do in your life! Don't cheat God, let him work. Who would want to face him with that?

Sometimes it is the hardest things that we endure that bring the greatest lessons, the most valuable ones. And it hurts like crazy to go through them, but God refines gold in the fire. He really does. Not by dancing over the flame, but by putting it into the hottest part of the fire. You don't get gold from a match. And we don't get refined by a match either. Nobody wants to be in that fire, but God will do what is best FOR us, even the hard way.

I know that you are going through alot. Like I said, I have been there. The "unanswered prayers", the hopelessness, the pain. I wasted 3 years being mad at God. And then in his time, he opened my eyes. And changed my life.:): I'm so grateful that I didn't throw it back. He had so much more in store for me, and he replaced what satan stole from me, many times over! Never doubt what he can do and will do IF we let him.

I know what it's like to be betrayed by the one person you love most in the world. I know what it's like to endure that insane kind of pain. I know that hopelessness. If you ever need a friend, pm me. But even if you don't, I hope you will learn to trust that God does have a plan that is just for you alone and he'll never forsake you. He's right there with you, right now. Trust him. Give him the chance to show you in this life what he has in store. It just might be better than what you have ever had.

John Tyson

January 15th, 2004, 08:50 AM

Most excellent! Vickmac you have given very wise counsel.

KC Phelps

January 15th, 2004, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by babylonrising
I wonder that too. If I were to do something like that, who's to say I wouldn't meet someone that really loves me tomorrow or later this year...
Then again, I also think my life is done. Depends on which minute of the day it is....

I'm almost 30. I feel like it's too late for me to do anything with my life.

\

It's NOT TOO LATE! I wasn't saved until last year and I'm 49.
"Eye has not seen nor mind imagined what the Lord has in store for those that Love HIM!"
30, goodness, you're just getting started! :thumb

edited to add
I'm not saying you're not saved, babylon! I have been where I think you're at, things change, NEVER GIVE UP!

antsinmypants

January 15th, 2004, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by babylonrising
If a person commits suicide do you believe they go to Hell automatically or will God forgive even this?
I personally believe he will forgive.

I honestly think that the better question is--

If you are saved, how angry do you think YHVH will be that you cut your life short?

if you are unsaved, won't that be a very rude awakening to find out you're in hell and it's not the party you thought it was?

Also.. remember-- if you even make one mistake and don't die.. what the rammifications are.

Suicide isn't anything that a child of the Father should be thinking about or contemplating.

I've been there before.. a few times.. and do you know where those thoughts come from? either one of three places:

1. Side effect from mediciation
2. chemical or hormonal imbalances
3. The Enemy (HaSatan).

Who is the great Physician? G-d is.
Who can bring us through this? G-d can
Who is bigger than our problems and can help us make it out ok? G-d.

Remember:

Phl 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things.

humbleone

January 15th, 2004, 01:05 PM

I believe that's the point that WatchdogR63 was trying to make. Satan may tempt born again Christians about suicide, but the Holy Spirit will keep them from doing it. Pew fillers on the other hand........

So, what are you saying then now? That God doesn't love the unsaved (no Holy Spirit) as much as He loves the saved? That He will prevent the saved person from succeeding in their suicide attempt but not the unsaved? That's what it sounds like is being said. If I'm incorrect, please forgive me.

Also, I am certain there have been real Christians who have carried out their suicide attempts successly. From when the world began to the present time, suicide has been a fact of life. It is impossible that not one Christian ever killed themselves. However, this is aside from the point.

I'm with Vickimac and others, who agree that God is faithful and true, that He WILL redeem our lives, no matter how terrible they've been and for how long. Suicide just can't be an option, even though I admit I used to find solace and relief in thinking that it was. Please don't give up.

Peace,

humbleone

savedandhappy1

January 15th, 2004, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by Vickimac
BR, I'm glad you are opening up with the things that are going on that led you to that state. OH How I understand it. I've been right where you are.

One, no one knows for certain a suicides destination. What we think really doesn't matter that much because we aren't the ones who will find out by suicide. Nobody here would be accompanying you. The suicide goes alone, all by himself to face God. But for the sake of argument, say you would go to heaven. Imagine, the very first thing you see is Jesus Christ. What are you going to tell him? That YOUR life was too hard? That YOU suffered too much? You couldn't take it any more? Could you really look at him KNOWING what HIS life here was like and tell him that life wasn't fair to YOU? If you can do that, then you have way more guts than I do.

I'm not trying to minimize what you are going through. I went through it and came close to ending my own life over it. It was by far, the worst valley of my life and like you, I saw no future for myself. 30? ~ I was 42. Where does a 42 year old woman with no self esteem find a whole new life, any kind of life? Especially when the old one started at 16 and was "all" she ever had. I saw no reason to live, had no desire to live and was weary of the agony of even breathing. My marriage was my "everything". (I later learned that that was part of the problem.)

If I had done it, I imagine that God would have given me a glimpse into the future I had thrown away. And I would have been like :eek Because nobody would have ever convinced me I'd be where I am now. Not ME. Maybe other people, but not me. God took me places that I could never have foreseen in my own future. And I am so grateful that he didn't have to "show" me these things after it was too late because I threw them away, but because I endured and let him bring me to them.

So whether a suicide ends up in hell or not, I believe that suicide is not an option. He gives us life, don't throw it away. He has a future planned. Don't take away his chance to show you what he can do in your life! Don't cheat God, let him work. Who would want to face him with that?

Sometimes it is the hardest things that we endure that bring the greatest lessons, the most valuable ones. And it hurts like crazy to go through them, but God refines gold in the fire. He really does. Not by dancing over the flame, but by putting it into the hottest part of the fire. You don't get gold from a match. And we don't get refined by a match either. Nobody wants to be in that fire, but God will do what is best FOR us, even the hard way.

I know that you are going through alot. Like I said, I have been there. The "unanswered prayers", the hopelessness, the pain. I wasted 3 years being mad at God. And then in his time, he opened my eyes. And changed my life.:): I'm so grateful that I didn't throw it back. He had so much more in store for me, and he replaced what satan stole from me, many times over! Never doubt what he can do and will do IF we let him.

I know what it's like to be betrayed by the one person you love most in the world. I know what it's like to endure that insane kind of pain. I know that hopelessness. If you ever need a friend, pm me. But even if you don't, I hope you will learn to trust that God does have a plan that is just for you alone and he'll never forsake you. He's right there with you, right now. Trust him. Give him the chance to show you in this life what he has in store. It just might be better than what you have ever had.

Vickimac, Well said, and sorry that you went through that, but so glad you waited on the Lord.

Babylonrising, sometimes we have to wait on the Lord. His time is not our time. I can't say I know what you are going through, but I can say the Lord is good, and He loves you. Cling to HIM. Wait on Him, and please listen to Him.

Still praying for you.

Love in Christ,
Kathy

ylf1999

January 15th, 2004, 02:42 PM

praying for you bro

blessanna

January 15th, 2004, 03:34 PM

I've seen this topic a few times at various places and times. I am surprised by how many people believe that a Christian will lose their salvation over suicide because it is equated with murder. Murder requires malice and fore thought. Also, it isn't the same thinking.

The battle begins in the mind and even as a Christian one can be subject to hopeless thoughts. I experienced this myself a couple of years ago. It's not that I wanted to kill myself but I wanted to die. I thought and hoped that would just make my mind be at peace and the pain to cease.

Yes I believed in Christ and that He died for me. But I really believed that maybe I was deserving of hell. I didn't feel I would go to heaven and be in a better place but I felt that I had failed God and life was not worth living anymore. If hell was my price then I was willing to pay for it. That was the depth of my pain and sorrow. I just wanted the turmoil to end.

There was no secret no magic formula. People didn't tell me I had a lot to live for. What God showed me was that I could not do it myself. I realized for the very first time that if Christ's death was not sufficient for the forgiveness of my sins then I was without hope.

See my sorrow was rooted in a sin, a sin that horrified me because I couldn't believe what I had done and almost did. But GOD was the one that intervened. He showed me that Christ was my only hope, my true salvation.

I am not here today because I believe that God has great plans for me. i know He does. I am here because I believe that I will only get through this life by the grace of God.

I don't think suicidal people are looking to get to heaven quickly. Matter of fact I would bet most people feel they are not deserving and deserve to go straight to hell.

I pray that God will meet you where you are at. For no one or no circumstance can fill the void that only Jesus Christ can fill. You are in our prayers.

Finally what saved me was coming to know and understand God's love for me and how much He valued my life. :wave

cktb2793

January 15th, 2004, 07:32 PM

Originally posted by humbleone
So, what are you saying then now? That God doesn't love the unsaved (no Holy Spirit) as much as He loves the saved? That He will prevent the saved person from succeeding in their suicide attempt but not the unsaved? That's what it sounds like is being said. If I'm incorrect, please forgive me.

Also, I am certain there have been real Christians who have carried out their suicide attempts successly.

Did I say God doesn't love the unsaved or loves them less?.........NO.

I said perhaps it is the Holy Spirit being indwelt in a Christian that keeps them from going through with suicide.

How are you certain that true Christians have committed suicide over the years?? What is the proof??

OSNAS says you can lose your salvation and OSAS says that if you go to a life of really bad sin later on that perhaps you were never saved but only thought you were..................How dow we know for sure that this is not the case with any "Christian" that has committed suicide.

Onlyy God knows for sure if a "Christian" is truly right with Him and is truly saved only God knows if they will go to Heaven or hell if they do it.

We do not know for sure what is in their hearts as we are not God................

So we are treading on dangerous ground if we tell a suicidal person that they will go to Heaven if they kill themselves are we not??? Since we don't know for sure that they are saved in the first place.

That's all my point is....I don't know if they go to Heaven or hell or if it's OSAS or OSNAS......I have no clue.

But I do know that we shouldn't be giving suicidal people courage to commit suicide by telling them they will go to Heaven when we aren't certain about the state of their salvation or the state of their minds.

What if we were to get to Heaven and have Jesus tell us that someone who wasn't really saved but only thought they were, committed suicide because we told them they would go to Heaven. Except now they are in hell and we bear a big part of the responsibility for that, because if we hadn't given them the courage to do it by saying they'd go to Heaven if they did, they would have gotten truly saved only 6 months later and would have been in Heaven instead of hell. What would we say to Jesus then? I could not imagine how horrible that would be!

Please see this thread:

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=127126

Sorry if I offended you in anyway. I'm not trying to be rude here.

(edited for spelling)

BarbT

January 15th, 2004, 09:12 PM

Except now they are in hell and we bear a big part of the responsibility for that, because if we hadn't given them the courage to do it.... We don't have that kind of power over someone's eternal destiny. If they are in hell it's due to unbelief -- not a desperate act to end their life prematurely. Suicide has nothing to do with where a person will spend eternity. The issue you keep bringing up is about sensitivity and I agree we should minister to hurting people. But these are two distinctly different issues which you are trying to tie together into one neat answer.

You know, this topic HAS to come back to two things {there is no getting around it}:

(1) Can a saved person even commit suicide?
I say YES but I believe it is very rare. It would take a terrible breach in our relationship with the Lord to bring us to that point but it is possible.

(2) Does suicide instantly negate the saved person's salvation {i.e. sending them to hell}?
I have to say NO, because there is no such thing as *grace* if one last desperate act can unsave us. Does the broken-hearted Christian mother who has lost her only child {for example} burn forever in hell because one night she was overwhelmed by enormous grief?

cktb2793

January 15th, 2004, 10:02 PM

Originally posted by BarbT

(1) Can a saved person even commit suicide?
I say YES but I believe it is very rare. It would take a terrible breach in our relationship with the Lord to bring us to that point but it is possible.

(2) Does suicide instantly negate the saved person's salvation {i.e. sending them to hell}?
I have to say NO, because there is no such thing as *grace* if one last desperate act can unsave us. Does the broken-hearted Christian mother who has lost her only child {for example} burn forever in hell because one night she was overwhelmed by enormous grief?

What I am trying to get across is that it's not right to tell a person who is considering suicide that we know where they will go regardless of whether we think it's Heaven or hell.

Are we God??? I think not, so how do we know if the person is truly saved or not if they tell us they are suicidal?? We cannot know for sure.

If we don't know for sure how can we tell them where they would go??

How do we know that if we tell a person they will go to Heaven that won't be the trigger that causes them to do it????

Suppose telling them we don't know for sure is the trigger that keeps them from doing it.........then which is better to tell them Heaven or we don't know for sure?

Originally posted by BarbT
We don't have that kind of power over someone's eternal destiny. If they are in hell it's due to unbelief -- not a desperate act to end their life prematurely.

Every idle word that comes out of our mouth and is heard by someone DOES have an effect on their life and CAN change their eternal destiny. Suppose they are not really saved when they do it and they did it because we told them they'd go to Heaven??? Are they not in Hell now?

What if we told them we weren't sure and they didn't do it because of what we said and were saved 6 months later?? Wouldn't we have had an effect on them and their eternal destiny?

Here are 2 quotes from myself and someone else on the thread I referenced in my last post that show how if someone had told us we could commit suicide and go to Heaven, we would have done it and I know for sure my eternal destiny would have been different then because I wasn't saved at the time, I just thought I was. I was Catholic then and thought all I had to do was go to mass on Sunday and do whatever I wanted the rest of the week. I had never even heard of being born again at the time.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by cktb2793
Yes, I have been in that position before I was saved and I can tell you on more than one occasion the ONLY thing that kept me from doing it was the FEAR OF GOING TO HELL. If I had thought I could do it and go to Heaven, I would NOT be here.

I thank God and praise Him that no one I cried out to for help had told me that I could do it and still go to Heaven, because I know in my heart that I would not be here now if they had.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Rom831
Coming from someone who has been suicidal, who has spent a full day with a gun pointed at his head praying that God give me some sign that if I pulled the trigger I'd be with Him, I can wholeheartedly say you are wrong. Absolutely the only thing that kept me from pulling the trigger was the thought that if I did, I would not go to heaven. That is the one and only reason I am here.

Had I thought I would still go to heaven, I would not be here. In fact, in the three years since that day, my life hasn't improved all that much. I want out of it! Now, I'm not going to and I know God has some plan to use me for something, but I still want out.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Rom831
And then people tell me if you kill yourself you go to heaven? Do you not see where that sounds like the greatest, most wonderful out immaginable??

Now please, this post isn't about me. I am strong in my faith and going nowhere. But what about someone who is where I was the day with my gun? Although this all sounds very comforting, especially to someone left behind from a suicide, but it is the last thing to tell someone!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you guys still think it is OK tell a suicidal person that they can kill themselves and go to Heaven even though you don't know their heart, don't know whether they are truly saved or not, and don't know their state of mind......................then so be it.

However, be forewarned, there are people who are just waiting for someone to tell them that to give them the courage to go ahead with it. MAYBE they are saved, BUT I'd hate to be the one who told them it was OK and find out later that they weren't really saved when they did it.

(edited for spelling)

Kyguy

January 15th, 2004, 10:22 PM

From my view, your body is a temple, killing your body is pretty bad damage to your temple!

humbleone

January 15th, 2004, 10:32 PM

cktb,

I don't think anyone is putting words into your mouth. If I did, it was not my intent. Please stop being so defensive; your tone *has* been a bit off-puttish. None here denies the seriousness of suicide and you have made your point very clear. I don't believe I ever told someone they could commit suicide and still go to Heaven, but even if someone did indicate that to someone, I think BarbT said it very well: we do not have that kind of power over someone anyway. I do understand the point you keep making and it was already taken some time ago.

(1) Can a saved person even commit suicide? I say YES but I believe it is very rare. It would take a terrible breach in our relationship with the Lord to bring us to that point but it is possible.

I have to disagree with this. I was as close to suicide as is possible to be, and I was a true Christian. It bothers me when I see it suggested that a successful suicide could not really have been a Christian, were not ever truly saved, etc. I KNOW I was, and still I was this close to taking my own life, many many times. It was not a "breach in the relationship" between myself and the Lord, no! :(:
Satan expended a great deal of time and energy and getting me to try and kill myself and I know he does this to others, too. I was being tested and tried, very severely so. I could very well have succeeded in my suicide attempts, but I did not. Another person, also a Christian, could have indeed completed the act. That is between that person and the Lord. To suggest there is a serious problem in their relationship, that they are somehow totally in the wrong, is simply untrue. I'm sorry but this is too close to home for me. It is just wrong to assume a very suicidal person must not be too right with God. I loved God and I was indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but the pain I was in was greater than anything else I could feel at that time. I need to go for tonight but I think I've said my piece for now.

-humbleone

cktb2793

January 15th, 2004, 10:55 PM

Originally posted by humbleone
cktb,

I don't think anyone is putting words into your mouth.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(1) Can a saved person even commit suicide?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I say YES but I believe it is very rare. It would take a terrible breach in our relationship with the Lord to bring us to that point but it is possible.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have to disagree with this. I was as close to suicide as is possible to be, and I was a true Christian. It bothers me when I see it suggested that a successful suicide could not really have been a Christian, were not ever truly saved, etc. I KNOW I was, and still I was this close to taking my own life, many many times. It was not a "breach in the relationship" between myself and the Lord, no! :(:

First off, both of those quotes that you have attributed to me were NOT said by me. They were said by other people and were quoted as examples in what I posted as a response.

Whether someone who is "sucessful" in suicide is truly saved or not cannot be proven, ONLY God knows the answer to that.

So please let's all stop arguing over that.

All I'm asking, no I'm BEGGING, is please if a person posts that they are thinking of committing suicide and want to know if they will go to Heaven, PLEASE, PLEASE tell them that only GOD knows the answer to that, because only God knows if their heart is right with Him and if they are saved. Then tell them reasons they should stick around and also direct them to a pastor or Christian counselor.

I am telling you from personal experience, there are people who will ask that question because they are looking to hear that they will go to Heaven so they can have the excuse they need to kill themselves.

It's impossible to tell if a poster on a message board is saved or not and if they are on their last straw mentally..... so who are we to tell them they can do it and go to Heaven?? We don't know their situation.

If my begging you over and over to NOT tell a person who may or may not be saved the words they may need to make the decision to kill themselves is being put-offish to you then I don't know what else to say. I am at a loss. Does nobody see the ramifcations of the words that come out of our mouths?

Has anyone even noticed that Babylonrising has not posted at all since he asked the question and was told he would go to Heaven if he killed himself?????????? I really hope and pray that he didn't take that to heart and use it to make an irreversable decision.

Do any of you even know about the other thread he started and how we were so worried about him for months not knowing what happened?
http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=116396

He just came back a couple days ago and now this has happened to him:
http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=126976

Please pray that he is safe and will find comfort. That is so much more important than this argument.

(edited for spelling)

savedandhappy1

January 16th, 2004, 12:30 AM

AMEN:thumb

Love in Christ,
Kathy

jegs2

January 16th, 2004, 01:47 AM

Originally posted by babylonrising
If a person commits suicide do you believe they go to Hell automatically or will God forgive even this?

I don't think so. The only unforgivable sin is blaspheming of the Holy Spirit, which is rejection of Christ prior to one's physical death:

John 3

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
(NIV)

Although one can argue that someone who takes his or her life never trusted in Christ in the first place...

Elizabeth_S

January 16th, 2004, 03:39 AM

Originally posted by jegs2
I don't think so. The only unforgivable sin is blaspheming of the Holy Spirit, which is rejection of Christ prior to one's physical death:

John 3

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
(NIV)

Although one can argue that someone who takes his or her life never trusted in Christ in the first place... Although one can argue that someone who takes his or her life never trusted in Christ in the first place...

It could be argued that way, however, then you would have to say that if suicide sends a person to hell (not unbelief), then a person sinning at any point in their life after believing on christ, was never saved in the first place either.

A sin is a sin is a sin.

And that would also mean, that every single day, a hundred times a day, a person has to be re saved, over and over and over and over to atone for each sin.

I don't see any validity to that debate.

___________________________

All I'm asking, no I'm BEGGING, is please if a person posts that they are thinking of committing suicide and want to know if they will go to Heaven, PLEASE, PLEASE tell them that only GOD knows the answer to that, because only God knows if their heart is right with Him and if they are saved. Then tell them reasons they should stick around and also direct them to a pastor or Christian counselor.

This is can agree with, but maybe you might ask first why they are asking about suicide, instead of shooting others down who voice their thoughts. They could have been asking because of a loved one lost to suicide. Might just help your counsel for this person.

Only God knows the heart, and you say that, then turn around and insinuate someone was not saved if they committed suicide.

Just one choice, either they were, saved, or not, but it is still up to God, not your judgment

cktb2793

January 16th, 2004, 04:55 AM

Originally posted by Elizabeth_S
Only God knows the heart, and you say that, then turn around and insinuate someone was not saved if they committed suicide.

Just one choice, either they were, saved, or not, but it is still up to God, not your judgment

First off you are putting words into my mouth saying that I said a person is NOT saved if they commit suicide.

I suggested that PERHAPS they are nor saved if they go through with it.

I said that we don't know a person's heart and only God does.

I said that's why we should not tell a stranger who we do not know on a message board that they WILL go to Heaven if they commit suicide.

Originally posted by Elizabeth_S
Just one choice, either they were, saved, or not, but it is still up to God, not your judgment

EXACTLY, so who a re we to tell a person considering suicide that they will go to Heaven when we don't know their heart.

I am going to repeat what I said in my last post as people have chosen to ignore it: Did you even read the thread about how he said he was going to kill himself then next morning and then disappeared for months?? Should you really be telling him something that may give him the courage to do it this time??

Originally cktb2793
Has anyone even noticed that Babylonrising has not posted at all since he asked the question and was told he would go to Heaven if he killed himself?????????? I really hope and pray that he didn't take that to heart and use it to make an irreversable decision.

Do any of you even know about the other thread he started and how we were so worried about him for months not knowing what happened?
http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=116396

He just came back a couple days ago and now this has happened to him:
http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=126976

Please pray that he is safe and will find comfort. That is so much more important than this argument.

cktb2793

January 16th, 2004, 05:09 AM

I GIVE UP.

Most of you seem to want to insist that this is an argument over eternal salvation, OSAS vs OSNAS.

Nobody wants to see that it DOES NOT matter where a person goes for committing suicide IF YOU PREVENT THEM FROM DOING IT.

PLEASE keep them from doing it, tell them you don't know if they will go to Heaven or Hell............because YOU DON'T.....only GOD does.

Telling them that may be the difference between LIFE and DEATH.

There are alot of suicidal people, myself included at one time, who will end their life if they get assurances from even one person that they are going to Heaven.

But nobody wants to hear that so I give up on this argument because it's like :frusty .

Do what you want, then.....go ahead and tell every suicidal person who posts on here that YOU KNOW they will go to Heaven.

Don't be surprised though if you NEVER hear from some of them again.

But hey, at least YOU assured them that they're going to Heaven even though you don't know anything about their life or if they were even saved.

There are alot of non-saved people who are searching for something to believe in on this board too, how do you know the person you are advising isn't one of them? You DO NOT.

Fell free now to post on and on about "eternal salvation" and how YOU KNOW suicides are going to Heaven, even though you aren't God and don't know for sure about each individual person you may tell that to.

Even though that isn't the point or what's important. The point and what's important is PREVENTING them from doing it, not assuring them it will be OK if they do

But you will not hear another word from me on this thread because.......... YOU ALL WIN. I'm DONE :tape2 :tape2 :tape2

(edited for really bad spelling)

blh

January 16th, 2004, 06:33 AM

Please know that I say this in love. Suicide harms, not only the one taking their own life, but the lives of all those around him/her. By taking yourself out of a painful situation, you cause heartache, and pain to a multitude of others, perhaps even some that you would never suspect. If you are worried about whether or not you will go to hell if you commit suicide, don't you wonder about the agonizing worrying that those left behind will be forced to suffer on your behalf? I don't mean to be unkind, but it seems like a very selfish act to me. I say this as one who has some experience, not with perpetrating the act, but as one who has been affected by someone who made such a choice. I pray for the peace that surpasses all understanding to cover you completely. I pray that you will look back upon these times in awe and wonder, and think to yourself, "I'm so glad that I did not do it, I would have missed all of these blessings, and I would have missed the opportunity to bring blessings to so many others." In Him.

Rom831

January 16th, 2004, 07:45 AM

Someone said cktb2793's comments have been 'offputtish' and a lot has been put towards the tone. Please try to step back and look at it differently. cktb2793 isn't displaying anger but desperation.

Having been at the same place a number of times, cktb2793 isn't mad, but desperate to try to make people understand that saying that if you commit suicide you still go to heaven indeed can be the one thing that lets the person hurting kill themself. Its not out of anger these things are said, but out of desperately trying to save someone's life. And possibly there eternal life.

We have all had thought's of suicide at one time or another. But those thoughts are far different from the thoughts of someone truely ready to kill themselves. Its hard to explain to someone who hasn't been there. I use to call it my "def-con" of suicide. At Each step I thought about it, but each steps thinking was completely different. And to someone at the last point, all the encouragment and love in the world will not help.

I have a few times got to the point where the love of my family and few friends really meant nothing. I knew they cared but 'knew' they would forget about me soon enough and we'd all be better off. This goes as far as for my very daughter! If I felt that way towards her, there is absolutely nothing you could express that would make me think anyone here cared enough for my death to matter.

At that point, hard truth's may be the only thing between living and pulling that trigger. Hard truths like 'if you think you are hurting now, how are you going to feel in a Lake of fire? How are you going to feel never being with God?' Because we can speculate all we want on these boards, but scripture does not say, period.

We are forgiven for all our sins by salvation, yes. Grace does cover them all. But it does say to be saved we must repent and be baptised. The repentance isn't a verbal acknowledgment of each and every sin, but a condition of repentance in our hearts. But with suicide, we cannot be repentant. We cannot kill ourself and repent because we are dead. We cannot have a repentant heart about our sin because we are dead.

There is no repentance for suicide. Does that send us to Hell? I don't know. Does grace still cover us even though we are unrepentant? I don't know. Only God knows. So should we tell people who may be suicidal that they'll still go to heaven when as far as we know, they may not. We may truely believe they will and indeed they may, but we don't know. We should not comfort them and tell them they will, but should very harshly warn them that they may not and the ramifications if they don't.

Please, just see the desperation of those of us that have been to the point where only this mattered and understand where these well intended words of comfort may well have ended our lives to what eternal end, we cannot know.

Bless...ArtS

[edited to add] Again, this is not about me!! I am oversharing my past not to get any words of encouragment or sympathy. I am past that point and although still have the thoughts, my "def-con" is way low; my faith has overcome. I only overshare this to attempt to show why this is, or can be, such a crutial issue.

Vickimac

January 16th, 2004, 08:57 AM

Ok, I have sat back and not gotten into the "debate" part of this thread for the simple reason that I am and have been very concerned about babylonrising since he first posted his thoughts about suicide. That has been foremost in my mind. And I have already followed his threads. God has him on my heart.

I totally understand what cktb is saying, that assurance of heaven could be a possible "trigger" or misguided encouragement to do the deed. I keep thinking about that obviously mentally ill lady who murdered her children SO that they would go to heaven. But I am not going to lie to anyone concerning my belief or my faith in eternal security. I believe that Jesus died once to cover my sin and when he said "It is finished", the debt was paid. I'm not going to deny that for any reason.

But the fact is, the bible does not really give a complete answer to the question of suicide. It does tell you how to live your LIFE. It doesn't really address throwing it back. So "I don't know - for sure" - would be the only correct answer. BR, people are giving you opinions and beliefs, for answers, you have to go straight to God. And I would NEVER give up my LIFE ~ based on peoples opinions or beliefs or interpretation of Gods word!!! The osas debate is just that, debate.

Do you want to hinge your eternal future on who makes the best argument in a osas debate? Or specific verses in the bible?

Again, I believe in eternal security. BUT you had better think long and hard about what it would be LIKE to FACE our living Lord who gives that eternal life, and God who gave you THIS life to begin with. Like I said before, I can't imagine the shame of trying to tell Jesus that MY life was unbearable especially when you are going to be facing his life here by comparison. His suffering was willingly - FOR you. And you need to THINK about what exactly you leave behind. Suicide of a loved one is not something you "get over". And very often there are those left behind who NEVER DO make peace with what happened, but spend the rest of thier lives in guilt and shame because they feel that MAYBE they should have done this or COULD have done that or failed you in some way. The grief over losing someone you love is compounded and intensified and I agree that it is a self centered act. We are called to die to self, not kill our self! "They are better off without me" is a LIE from satan himself. No way that is better!

I don't think the debate over whether a suicide is a "true" Christian is even appropriate! A Christian is also subject to the powers of temptation of satan. We can be victims of depression and mental illness. We have problems that seem insurmountable at times. So what is the point? I don't think it is edifying anyone here to judge whether a suicide is REALLY a Christian or not.

I posted my first post TO babylonrising because HE is my concern. His salvation is not my responsibility. Nor are his actions. I'm not going to make him do anything he won't do on his own. I can't save anybody spiritually and I can't condemn them either. We work out our OWN salvation. God alone saves. What I can do, is to try to show him all the ramifications of what such an act could bring. And that is what I am hoping to help him with.

I've been where he's at. I wanted to die, I begged God to LET me die. I prayed for it constantly! Every single breath was agony. I drove 90+ on a curvy road, tempting him. (I kept control of that stupid car, how I don't even know, he must have had the wheel) But I didn't throw my life back at him for 2 reasons. My love for him and my love for my family. And my life is a living testimony that God does give recompense. And I can promise you BR that if given a choice at this point to erase the past 8 yrs and have my life back the way it was before all the strife that caused the breakup, I would NEVER go back to my life the way it was! And I thank the Lord for not taking me at that time because he had a life and a spiritual journey planned for me that I wouldn't have missed for the world!

Like you, I would never have believed it when I was trapped in that suffocating misery. And I would have hated for God to have shown me what this plan was - after it was too late to live it. Don't limit God, it's a huge mistake. TRUST him, believe his love for you is real!

Suicide is not an option. Please LET God work. That is never the wrong choice!

antsinmypants

January 16th, 2004, 09:32 AM

BabylonRising, you've been on my mind all night and all morning.
I'm praying for you.

Remember that G-d loves you and does care for you.. but that sometimes we have to do some hard things so that we can come out stronger.

No athlete becomes strong by sitting infront of a tv, or only running on a treadmill. It takes trials, pain and hard work to get where they are.. and remember that the bible likens our lives to that of athletes.. people who have to run a race (I'd say it's more at a triathalon.. but that's me :): )..

It's gonna be hard.. and some of it will be easy.. and when you think you can't make it.. Trust G-d, he will see you through.

Praying for you!

:wave

blessanna

January 16th, 2004, 10:02 AM

Saved or not our message needs to be the samed for someone contemplating suicide that only Jesus can fill their void and that He loves them.

BabylonRising all I can do is pray for you. I could try and come up with some wonderful things to tell you but I really don't know you. God knows and loves you. He knows your risings and laying downs. Your comings and goings. You are fearfully and wonderfully made by God. You are His creation. Your joy and fufillment will come in discovering God's will for your life.

You know the secret to a Christian life is realizing you can experience heaven here on earth. Yes there are struggles but knowing that God loves you makes it worth it. The bible says that every good and perfect gift comes from above. You can experience heaven this moment by simply surrending to God and entering into His presence.

As far as the debate I ask myself if God will allow us to be tempted to a point that we would kill ourself. Especially, if God knew that would destroy us for all eternity. Let's think about this - the God who sent Jesus to die for us when we were still sinners, would He allow His children to be tempted by Satan to the point of suicide where their salvation would be negated?

I look at the story of Job. I believe God had confidence that Job would not end his life or curse God and allowed Satan to do what he did. I believe that God allowed this to show Satan that Job was an upright and righteous man who feared God.

In situations like this we have to believe and trust in the power of the Holy Spirit. We have to believe in the power of God that He can heal and can save.

Can anyone of us say that God would not move heaven and earth to ensure that not one of His children would commit a sin that could possibily erradicate them from His grasp and presence for all eternity?

As for the lost our message must be as always the gospel and that only Jesus Christ can save them. Their hope is in the Lord.

msvol

January 16th, 2004, 10:40 AM

I agree wholeheartedly with blessanna. babylonrising,
I will keep you in my prayers. I have found that this
life is full of peaks and valleys. We are on a perpetual
rollercoaster. It is in the valleys that Jesus teaches us
our most important character building lessons. Jesus
was lonely and despised at various times in His life here
also. There is nothing that We go through that He can't
say "Been there done that, learn from me." He ALWAYS
eventually leads us out of the valleys if we will only let
him. Don't deny Him the chance to Shepard you. He
loves you. We will keep you covered in prayer. Trust
His promises.

SIC
Tonya

inJC

January 23rd, 2004, 06:22 AM

http://www.carm.org/questions/suicide.htm

If a Christian Commits Suicide, Is He Still Forgiven?

This might seem like a perplexing question, but it does have an answer. Though the Christian who has committed suicide has committed a grave sin, he is still forgiven. But, in order to understand why a Christian who commits suicide is forgiven, we first need to understand what salvation is and what it is based upon.
Salvation is the state of being saved from God's judgment upon the sinner. The only way to be saved is to trust Jesus for the forgiveness of one's sins (John 14:6, Acts 4:12). All who do not trust Jesus alone, by faith (Rom. 5:1; Rom. 6:23; Eph. 2:8-9) are not forgiven and go to hell when they die (Matt. 25:46; John 3:18). When Jesus forgives someone, He forgives all their sins and gives them eternal life and they shall never perish (John 10:28). He does not give them temporary eternal life -- otherwise, it would not be eternal.
Salvation is not based upon what you do. In other words, you don't have to obey any Law of God in order to become saved. This is because no one is saved by keeping the Law of God (Gal. 2:21; Rom. 3:24-28). But that does not mean that you can go and sin all you want. Rom. 6:1-3 expressly condemns such action. Instead, we are saved for the purpose of purity (1 Thess. 4:7). Our salvation is strictly by God's: "By grace through faith you have been saved¡¦" (Eph. 2:8). Other than acting by faith in trusting and accepting what Jesus did on the cross, you don't do a thing (John 1:12-3) in order to become saved. Since you did not get your salvation by what you did, you can not lose it by what you do.
What about the unforgivable sin? Is that suicide? No. Suicide is not the unforgivable sin. Jesus spoke of the unforgivable sin in Matt. 12:22-32. The context is when the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of the devil. Therefore, suicide is not the unforgivable sin.

Is repentance necessary for salvation?

This is a good question and the answer is yes -- and no. Now, before you throw stones, hear me out. Repentance is a necessary result of the saving work of God, not the cause of salvation. If repentance brought salvation, then salvation is by works; or rather, the ceasing of bad works. That isn't how it works. God grants repentance to the Christian (2 Tim. 2:25). The Christian then turns from his sin; that is, he stops sinning. He is able to repent because he is saved, not to get saved.
In 1 John 1:9 it says, "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Confession of sin and its natural result of repentance are necessary elements of the Christian's life. But, what about the sins that we do not know we commit? If we do not confess them and do not repent of them, are we still saved? Of course we are! Otherwise, we would be forced to confess and repent of every single sin we ever commit. In effect, we'd be back under the Law, living by a rule of absolute repentance of every detail lest you be damned. This is bondage, not freedom. Jesus said His yoke was light, not hard (Matt. 11:27-30.
So, repentance is not the cause of salvation, but it is a result of salvation. The believer repents from his sins upon trusting in Christ and thereafter, continues to repent of further sins that the Lord reveals to him.

Back to the suicide issue.

Suicide is, in effect, self-murder. The unfortunate thing about it is that the one who commits it cannot repent of it. The damage is permanently done. We can see in the Bible that murderers have been redeemed (Moses, David, etc.), but they had opportunities to confess their sins and repent. With suicide, the person does not. But that does not mean the person is lost. Jesus bore all that person's sins, including suicide. If Jesus bore that person's sins on the cross 2000 years ago, and if suicide was not covered, then the Christian was never saved in the first place and the one sin of suicide is able to undo the entire work of the cross of Christ. This cannot be. Jesus either saves completely or he does not.

Is suicide always wrong?

That I cannot answer because I cannot list every possible situation. But, it seems obvious that suicide is clearly wrong, though forgivable. However, there are general categories of suicide that we could briefly comment on:

Medically Assisted Suicide - I've never seen this as being acceptable. The doctor is supposed to save life, not destroy it. But, lately as destroying the lives of the unborn is more common place, destroying the lives of the sick has become the next logical step.
Suicide to prevent prolonged torture - Let's say that someone was being tortured in an excruciating manner for an unbearably long period of time, is suicide an option? Perhaps. But if it were in this situation, why wouldn't it be all right in the medically assisted context if the patient were also in excruciating pain for long periods of time? Quite honestly, I'm not sure how to answer that one.
Suicide due to depression - Of course, this is never a good reason for suicide. Seasons pass and so does depression. The one who is depressed needs to look to Jesus and get help. Depression is real and powerful and is best fought with help. Also, severe depression robs the mind of clear thinking. People in such states are in a real way, not in their right mind.
Suicide due to a chemical imbalance in the brain - The human brain is incredibly complex and the medical community is full of accounts of extraordinary behaviors by people whose "circuits got crossed." I don't see how a situation like this would make it justifiable. I think it simply would make it more explainable.
Accidental suicide - Sometimes people accidentally kill themselves. This could mean leaning over a balcony too far and falling to one's death, or actually, purposefully taking a stupid risk like playing with a gun. Of course, with either, stupidity does not remove us from the grace of God. But then again, if it was an accident, it wouldn't be suicide would it?

Conclusion

Is the Christian forgiven for suicide? Yes. But suicide is not an option. We do not have the right to take our own lives. That belongs to God.

inJC

January 23rd, 2004, 06:25 AM

http://www.liberty.edu/wwwadmin/includes/search/QandA/QandA_Results_elmertowns.cfm?Searched=suicide&AID=210&DisplayResults=1

Suicide: Is It The Unpardonable Sin?

If a person takes his own life, can he go to Heaven or is suicide the unpardonable sin?
Many people believe if a person takes his own life, it is impossible for him to go to Heaven. However, this is not what God's Word teaches. Suicide is not the unpardonable sin.

The Bible clearly teaches a saved person is one to whom Christ has given everlasting life, not temporary life (John 5:24; 10:28). Thus, a saved person, washed in the blood of the Lamb and born of the Holy Spirit, will never lose his salvation. He has repented of his sins and has set out to live a life that will please the Lord more and more.

A saved person, like anyone else, will have physical trouble if he does not take care of his/her body. He will have other types of physical difficulties if he does not observe the laws of physical health which God has established for our bodies. But, he will also have trouble if he does not observe certain laws for emotional stability and health. The Christian, like anyone else, can find himself in circumstances which may cause great emotional and mental stress and strain, particularly if he does not stay close to the Lord. A Christian can even become mentally unbalanced.

Staying in the center of God's will, in the way we live, and in the way we serve, and in the way we pray, will give us a strength to carry us through the storms of life.

It is possible for a Christian to get under such pressure from a combination of physical difficulties and emotional and mental stress and strain that he will commit suicide, if he is not close enough to God to have the strength to overcome the pressures and the stresses of his situation.

The first safeguard against suicide is to make sure you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior and are wholeheartedly, not halfheartedly, living for Him.

Our salvation depends, not on our sinlessness at death, but on our once turning to Christ for the forgiveness of our sins, our repentance for those sins, and our acceptance of Christ as our Lord and Savior

:wave

inJC

January 23rd, 2004, 06:26 AM

edited for double post

Harley

January 23rd, 2004, 02:50 PM

I don't find the basic question of the eternal state of a Christian who commits suicide nearly so difficult.

That is, if I keep in mind that all anecdotal speculation on the ramifications of a doctrine are moot to the discussion. The what if's and what about's are irrelevant.

The bottom line: a) suicide is a sin b) Christ died for our sins, c) if you are a Christian your sins are covered.

Is there a sin the sacrifice of Christ cannot/does not cover? No. Therefore suicide is covered and the person in question goes to heaven.

Harley

January 23rd, 2004, 02:58 PM

That being said, I whole-heartedly concur with all the posts who say suicide is never a good option. This is true of all, but particularly so for the adopted child of God.

Harley

January 23rd, 2004, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by watchdogR63
Can a real Christian committ suicide? Sure pew fillers can, but born again christians? I am not so sure.
Is there any sin a true Christian cannot commit?

2bossy

January 23rd, 2004, 03:07 PM

Lets just say this is a OSAS issue. There have been many many threads about that. Yes, it is a sin to commit suicide... but here's another example... what if you lived a wonderful christian life and one day you were in a car crash. As you saw the grill of the Mac truck coming towards you, you said "oh @!%*#" and then you died. Under this logic you would go to hell.

But as I said, the OSAS issue has been beat to death, so I'll just say, don't do it. If God thought your life wasn't worth anything he'd kill you himself.

Rom831

January 23rd, 2004, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by Harley
I don't find the basic question of the eternal state of a Christian who commits suicide nearly so difficult.

That is, if I keep in mind that all anecdotal speculation on the ramifications of a doctrine are moot to the discussion. The what if's and what about's are irrelevant.

The bottom line: a) suicide is a sin b) Christ died for our sins, c) if you are a Christian your sins are covered.

Is there a sin the sacrifice of Christ cannot/does not cover? No. Therefore suicide is covered and the person in question goes to heaven.

You are SO SURE about that you're willing to tell someone who is contemplating suicide, who's last straw is "will I still go to heaven", that its ok if they do, they still go to heaven?

For instance, due to an unwanted divorce, failed business attempt and stupid choices I have to declare bankruptcy. Suicide is a sin, but so is not living up to the contracts I have signed. So instead of sinning by filing, having to live with the guilt and failure, being financially handicapped for the next ten years and the depression this has me in, instead I can opt to simply kill myself and be in heaven, with my God, having peace and joy beyond comprehension, for all of eternity, starting tonight??? SWEET!!!

Are you STILL so undeniably sure salvation is guarenteed to someone who does not (because they cannot) repent of murder that you will guarentee their eternal dwelling place?

Bless...ArtS

Harley

January 23rd, 2004, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by Rom831
If you kill yourself, which is the sin of murder among others, how can you repent? You are dead. How can you turn from your sin? You are dead. How can you even have repentance in your heart if your heart no longer beats?
I do not believe that repentence for each and every sin is a prerequisite for admittance to heaven.

Rom831

January 23rd, 2004, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by Harley
I do not believe that repentence for each and every sin is a prerequisite for admittance to heaven.

So that's a yes? Gutsy call considering it could be the one, deciding factor between life and death for a desperate person and if your wrong, the difference between eternal life and eternal torment. I hope you're right or they are unconvinced enough not to pull the trigger...

Bless...ArtS

Harley

January 23rd, 2004, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by Rom831
You are SO SURE about that you're willing to tell someone who is contemplating suicide, who's last straw is "will I still go to heaven", that its ok if they do, they still go to heaven?

...

Are you STILL so undeniably sure salvation is guarenteed to someone who does not (because they cannot) repent of murder that you will guarentee their eternal dwelling place?

Bless...ArtS
Well, yes.

That being said it is not my place to guarentee anyone their eternal dwelling place. But I can, with absolute confidence, say what I believe the Bible confirms. The Bible does not require repentance for each and every sin as a requirement for salvation.

As to your first question: I think you missed my first point and second post. Of course it is not "OK" to commit suicide. I would not say that any more then I would tell anyone to go ahead and commit any sin "because it is covered." Seems to me Paul addressed this same argument in Romans 6. But I would also not refrain from saying what I believe just to prevent them from doing so. Should I lie?

This is exactly what I meant by not being anectdotal - we should define our theology biblically first, then look at the reamifications, not think through all the ramifications to come to a theological conclusion

Harley

January 23rd, 2004, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by Rom831
So that's a yes? Gutsy call considering it could be the one, deciding factor between life and death for a desperate person and if your wrong, the difference between eternal life and eternal torment. I hope you're right or they are unconvinced enough not to pull the trigger...

Bless...ArtS

Again, I will base what I believe on how I interpret the relevant Scriptures, not on a utilitarian "how people may react" basis. What a person may or may not decide after I have expressed an interpretation cannot be a factor on how I interpret Scripture. If it is, I am not letting Scripture speak for itself.

I realize this is very emotionally charged. And I am taking my doctrinal stance outside the immediate context of person contemplating suicide. But if I am honest, when asked what I believe will happen to a Born-Again Christian who commits suicide - I have to say what I believe and not base my answer on how they may react. I have all sorts of other arguments against suicide - but they have to remain seperate from the biblical/theological/doctrinal issue at hand.

Hope this helps!

Harley

January 23rd, 2004, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Rom831
...Gutsy call...

And finally... are not all "calls" that deal with the eternal state of people, "gutsy?"

BlackMoon

January 23rd, 2004, 04:10 PM

Would killing your self not be the ultimate stumbling block for non believers?

prairiedog

January 24th, 2004, 04:57 PM

Babylonrising, many years ago I headed for the garage to do myself in.

As I reached for the door, I felt a spiritual presence in which I am sure it was Jesus Himself. If not, at least one of His holy angels.

Anyway, He would not let me pass through the door & He spoke to my heart & told me not to do this terrible thing, that things would improve & they did.

A pastor once preached in his sermon regarding our lives in the flesh. Said that for the unsaved, this is the only heaven they will ever know & for the saved, the only hell we will ever know.

Regarding your question though..."When in doubt, don't."
This is such a controversial issue which casts doubt upon where we wind up eternally, that I wouldn't risk it.

I think the Scripture in which Jesus says "He who endureth until the end shall be saved." discourages suicide.

There is a difference though, in which a person sacrifices his life so that others might live. This may be a corny example, but the song "Big Bad John" comes to mind. He held up the beams so that the other coal miners could escape the cave-in. In doing so, the mine collapsed on him before he could escape.

But the greatest real example is Christ laying down His Life so that we may have eternal life with Him & have it more abundantly.
I think suicide would cheapen the significance of His Sacrifice.

Think of it like this...if it is a sure thing that we go to Heaven, even if we commit suicide, then just think of the numbers of believers who would speed up the process. Why bother to stick around here in the flesh? It would be much worse than the Heaven's Gate suicides or the Jim Jones Kool-Aid mess.

Also, looking back through the history of the early Church, the believers who knew that they were going to be burned at the stake, crucified, beheaded, thrown to wild beasts, etc. endured their fates "until the end" instead of committing suicide.

cktb2793

January 24th, 2004, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by prairiedog

Also, looking back through the history of the early Church, the believers who knew that they were going to be burned at the stake, crucified, beheaded, thrown to wild beasts, etc. endured their fates "until the end" instead of committing suicide.

EXACTLY........ many of these people ACTUALLY knew the apostles and heard the apostles preach in person.

If they believed that the apostles taught that you could commit suicide and go to heaven, why would they go through the horrible suffering they did when they could have ended it so easy?
Why would they let their little children go through that horrible suffering in front of their own eyes if they could have ended it so easy?
Something to think about.

yieldedandstill

January 24th, 2004, 11:05 PM

True story:

My sister professed to be a born again Christian.
She was a lesbian, and she claimed God made her that way.
She was convicted about her lifestyle, but still said God made her that way.
She became manic-depressive.
She became schizophrenic.
She lost her mind, but she never gave up her lifestyle.
The last thing she said to my mom was, “I’m going to hell, aren’t I?”
My mom said to her, “Do you really think that God would make you the way you are and then condemn you?”
The next night my sister shot herself. She was 34 years old.
Was she really a Christian? Is she in heaven or hell? I have thought about this every day since she killed herself in October. EVERY DAY.
The pain of living with a mentally ill loved one is nothing compared to the pain of living without them. If you are contemplating suicide, you are, at least for the time being, mentally ill.

DO NOT COMMIT SUICIDE!!!

2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

God has given you a SOUND MIND! Resist Satan, and claim the power of the Holy Spirit in your life. You are a child of the Living God. Immerse yourself in the Word of God, and trust Him to heal you and transform you.

1 John 4:4 ...Greater is He Who is in you than he who is in the world.

PLEASE, do not do to your family and friends this most selfish thing. Try this. When you are feeling so low, instead of letting your mind dwell on negative things, start praying - for someone else. Start interceding for someone else, and the Holy Spirit will bring people and events to mind to pray for, and the more you pray for someone else, the more you will be lifted up. Praying for others will bring you out of depression quicker than anything else. TRY IT!!!

God bless you.

Julie

Christ Rocks On

January 25th, 2004, 02:49 AM

Wow! I'm sorry to hear about your sister, Green Aspect. Please accept my condolences. :cry I will say a prayer for you, I hope everything's alright with you and your family.

As for the suicide issue, I too do not know what happens to a Christian if they commit suicide. The Scriputures DO say that murderers will not inherit the Kingdom. Suicide is self-murder. But the bottom line is that, none of us knows for sure what happens to a believer who commits suicide, only God knows. With that said, why take that chance and kill yourself? That is a chance I would not be willing to take. I agree wholeheartedly with cktb2793.

Babylon Rising, if you're reading this, hang in there. I have said a prayer for you. God will not let you go through more than what you can handle. Please trust Him that everything will be alright. Remember, no matter how bad things get, God is still in charge and in control and will not leave you nor forsake you. Take care!

Harley

January 25th, 2004, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by cktb2793
EXACTLY........ many of these people ACTUALLY knew the apostles and heard the apostles preach in person.

If they believed that the apostles taught that you could commit suicide and go to heaven, why would they go through the horrible suffering they did when they could have ended it so easy?
Why would they let their little children go through that horrible suffering in front of their own eyes if they could have ended it so easy?
Something to think about.

Thought about it... but refuse to base my interpretation of the Scripture on anecdotal speculation - so they didn't kill themselves, could have been an abundance of faith - or the fact they believed martyrs have a special place in heaven - or...

Harley

January 25th, 2004, 04:12 PM

Furthermore, I am not sure how anyone can read John 5:24 and Romans 8, and still think a Christian can miss out on heaven for committing any sin. Is eternal life conditional, or not?

Rom831

January 26th, 2004, 08:14 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Harley
The Bible does not require repentance for each and every sin as a requirement for salvation.

Correct, but it DOES require repentance. Scripture says very clearly to repent and be baptized. I agree this doesn't mean you have to repent from each and every sin, but you DO have to be repentant. This is impossible in the case of suicide. You can't be repentant because you are dead.

As to your first question: I think you missed my first point and second post. Of course it is not "OK" to commit suicide.

I didn't miss it. But when someone comes to the point of suicide but stops for fear of going to hell, telling them you still go to heaven IS telling them it's ok.

But I would also not refrain from saying what I believe just to prevent them from doing so. Should I lie?

Not asking you to lie. I'm asking you to be very careful. The Bible does NOT say the eternal fate of one who commits suicide. And I believe to make such a bold statment as 'if you commit suicide you still go to heaven' is far too dangerous when the Bible does not say that.

Again, I will base what I believe on how I interpret the relevant Scriptures, not on a utilitarian "how people may react" basis. What a person may or may not decide after I have expressed an interpretation cannot be a factor on how I interpret Scripture. If it is, I am not letting Scripture speak for itself.

But see the problem is, scripture does NOT adress the eternal salvation of Suicides. We can speculate on either side of the issue and each post scripture and reasons, but we cannot say that God says because He didn't. I feel, on an issue like this, we should not make such a bold statment, that may have such dire consequences, when God does not say for sure.

Bless...ArtS

Harley

January 26th, 2004, 12:53 PM

Rom831,

Good response, thanks for addressing them specifically, I'll try and do the same. For those playing at home the bold face are quotes from Rom831

1. I agree this doesn't mean you have to repent from each and every sin, but you DO have to be repentant. This is impossible in the case of suicide. You can't be repentant because you are dead.

Do you really want to go down this road - that a Christian who dies in an unrepentant state (in relation to a particular sin) goes to Hell? If you do, you cannot limit it to suicide - sin is sin. The logical conclusion to this would mean any Christian who commits a sin, but dies before becoming repenitent goes to Hell. I have a hard time justifying this with John 5:24 and the whole of Romans 8.

2. But when someone comes to the point of suicide but stops for fear of going to hell, telling them you still go to heaven IS telling them it's ok.
No it is not. My whole position is based on a OSAS foundation - but I do not want this to degenerate into a discussion on that. Believing OSAS, the answer to the question: "Can I (insert sin) and still go to heaven?" is "Yes, but..." So it is with suicide. I would always, regardless of the particular sin - say it is not OK.

3. The Bible does NOT say the eternal fate of one who commits suicide. And I believe to make such a bold statment as 'if you commit suicide you still go to heaven' is far too dangerous when the Bible does not say that.
True, but the Bible does not address the fate of a Christian who commits any sin - in particular. This is an argument from silence.

4. But see the problem is, scripture does NOT adress the eternal salvation of Suicides.
True, but that is moot. As in 3. above, the Scriptures do not deal with eternal salvations and sins - it deals with eternal salvation and sin. The Bible does not address unrepentant cheating on my taxes, but if a Christian does, and dies before repenting, I'll still say they go to heaven - suicide, though significantly different from a human point of view, is still a sin, therefore theologically no different then other, less devastating, sins.

5. we should not make such a bold statment, that may have such dire consequences, when God does not say for sure.
I agree, I just believe God has made his position clear - suicide is a sin, the Christian has been forgiven... either that or the imputed righteousness of Christ is not as strong or permanent as we are led to believe.

6. Gutsy call...
I agree. But if I tell someone that they should be baptized, since it is commanded, but tell them their salvation is not dependent on it, I am doing the same thing. I am making a judgment call, on my interpretation of what God says. They both have ramifications for what people may believe about their eternal status. I just believe that the state of the Christian who commits suicide is as sure as the unbaptized Christian.

This is a good theological exercise... Over to you Art

Rom831

January 26th, 2004, 01:55 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Harley
Do you really want to go down this road - that a Christian who dies in an unrepentant state (in relation to a particular sin) goes to Hell? If you do, you cannot limit it to suicide - sin is sin. The logical conclusion to this would mean any Christian who commits a sin, but dies before becoming repenitent goes to Hell.

There is a strong difference though. If I cheat on my taxes, lie or sin something that I didn't even realize was a sin, I am still repentant in my heart. As a Christian, that is the condition of my heart. I may not even realize I have sinned, but I am repentant at heart.

But with suicide, I'm not. When I pull that trigger, I'm not repentant in the least bit; I am instead as boldly defiant as can be. And never again will my heart be repentant because I am dead.

No it is not.

You may not think it is, but I have been there, with the gun pointed at my head. I prayed all day that God send me a sign that if I pulled the trigger I could still be with Him. What you are saying is not, is EXACTLY the permission I was seeking to pull the trigger. It very much is.

(Not getting into OSAS. It makes me mad)

True, but the Bible does not address the fate of a Christian who commits any sin - in particular. This is an argument from silence.

I agree, but still valid. Scripture is silent, so we should not make a dogmatic statment on it when it has eternal consequences.

True, but that is moot. As in 3. above, the Scriptures do not deal with eternal salvations and sins - it deals with eternal salvation and sin. The Bible does not address unrepentant cheating on my taxes, but if a Christian does, and dies before repenting, I'll still say they go to heaven - suicide, though significantly different from a human point of view, is still a sin, therefore theologically no different then other, less devastating, sins.

I disagree for the reason stated above.

I just believe that the state of the Christian who commits suicide is as sure as the unbaptized Christian.

I assume you mean un water baptized. Because I will dogmaticlly stand on one MUST be baptized to be saved, but baptized by the Spirit, not H2O. But that is a diffrent thread alltogether

Bless...ArtS

Harley

January 26th, 2004, 04:06 PM

Rom831,

I assume you mean un water baptized. Because I will dogmaticlly stand on one MUST be baptized to be saved, but baptized by the Spirit, not H2O. But that is a diffrent thread alltogether

Yes, as you say. By definition being a Christian means you have been baptized by the Spirit - or is that another Can-o-Worms?

(Not getting into OSAS. It makes me mad)

Understood - and since it has not been settled in 2,000 years of theological history, we're not going to settle it here either. At the risk of putting interpretations in your posts - if you are not OSAS, I find this ironic since Romans 8 (your namesake) so clearly confirms that in my mind.

You may not think it is, but I have been there, with the gun pointed at my head. I prayed all day that God send me a sign that if I pulled the trigger I could still be with Him. What you are saying is not, is EXACTLY the permission I was seeking to pull the trigger. It very much is.

I'll grant you this on a pragmatic level. And if I thought the person was going to act on my answer I'd dodge and weave to beat the band... but, when pushed to answer the question on a purely theological level...

But with suicide, I'm not. When I pull that trigger, I'm not repentant in the least bit; I am instead as boldly defiant as can be. And never again will my heart be repentant because I am dead.

I think I have but one question left, and when this is understood we can agree to disagree having sufficiently beaten this horse... Are you saying that a Chrisitan who sins (deliberately- as we all do daily), and dies without repenting goes to Hell? This is what you seem to be leaving room for with suicide (and I understand the tug), but in doing so you either rank sins (saying suicide is somehow worse), or contend we gain and lose salvation moment by moment.

As a side bar - I thank God a) I have never been in the suicidal position you described... and b) that you, from all appearances, no longer are as well!

Harley

January 26th, 2004, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by Harley
That being said, I whole-heartedly concur with all the posts who say suicide is never a good option. This is true of all, but particularly so for the adopted child of God.

After all the theologizing I think it is time to restate the obvious once again. This and the fact that all the opinions on this BB, mine most assurredly are just person interpretations - only God knows for sure.

Rom831

January 27th, 2004, 07:26 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Harley
Rom831,

[B]Yes, as you say. By definition being a Christian means you have been baptized by the Spirit - or is that another Can-o-Worms?

It has been hotly debated here many times. So yeah, big o'l can...

[B]At the risk of putting interpretations in your posts - if you are not OSAS, I find this ironic since Romans 8 (your namesake) so clearly confirms that in my mind.

Just another place we disagree. I'll just say this. I see many places that side with OSAS in that you cannot LOOSE your salvation. But there are equally as many I see stating someone who once believed can end up not in heaven. Therefore, TO ME, the only conclusion is that indeed you cannot loose it, but you can choose to reject it. (Just stating my belife, not looking for a debate)

Are you saying that a Chrisitan who sins (deliberately- as we all do daily), and dies without repenting goes to Hell? This is what you seem to be leaving room for with suicide (and I understand the tug), but in doing so you either rank sins (saying suicide is somehow worse), or contend we gain and lose salvation moment by moment.[b]

I believe its all a matter of the person's heart. If our heart is repentant, we sin and are forgiven because of the condition of our heart, not because we recognize each and every sin and verbally confess it. So if a Christian sins, even unkowingly, their heart is repentant and they are forgiven.

However, suicide is the one case where this cannot happen. You cannot kill yourself and be repentant because you are dead. Does this condemn you? I don't know. But it provides a huge enough dilema for salvation, and one that is not addressed by scripture, that I feel we should not make any assumptions either way and only strongly advise that we simply, do not know their fate.

I know that is not very comforting to the survivors of a suicide, but I'm simply not willing to take that chance just to comfort someone. Even myself.

[b]As a side bar - I thank God a) I have never been in the suicidal position you described... and b) that you, from all appearances, no longer are as well!

I appreciate the good wishes. But its a sickness and in varrying degrees, I'm there all too frequently. The difference now is only in degrees, in my faith, and in having a child. I'd rather not ever be there, but it does give me a wonderful insite into the mind of someone going through it...

Bless...ArtS

blessanna

January 27th, 2004, 12:15 PM

I do believe in eternal security but when it comes to suicide it is up to God.

What bothers me is that it sounds like some believe a person who is contemplating suicide is in such a state of defiance and sin and don't care who they hurt. It's as if there is murder in their heart.

To be honest a person contemplating suicide would probably welcome hell or feel deserving of it because of the battle that is going on in their mind.

There is a sense of hoplessness that you wonder if death will offer some relief and hell may even be a better place. In this person's heart I don't think they have the same attitude of sin that someone who conteplates murder or adultry has in their heart.

They may even think and believe they are doing their family and the world a favor by ending their life. That is why I have to believe that God would step in for His own. That He would save His own child from this own personal hell that is going on in their mind. That He would reach out and offer them hope and not give them over to the enemy.

I refuse to believe that God would allow the enemy to win this battle. If God cannot rescue a Christian from the sin of suicide or the prospects of them going to hell then what hope do any of us have.

Rom831

January 27th, 2004, 12:59 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by blessanna
What bothers me is that it sounds like some believe a person who is contemplating suicide is in such a state of defiance and sin and don't care who they hurt. It's as if there is murder in their heart.

I can only speak for myself. For me it has been dismissing the pain it would cause. Believing that yes, it would hurt some people, but in a short time they would move on, be fine and infact, better off. That might not be a direct "not caring who I'd hurt", but a dismissal of their hurt which isn't much different.

To be honest a person contemplating suicide would probably welcome hell or feel deserving of it because of the battle that is going on in their mind.

You have a point. For me, hell had one advantage to life, and that was hope. Hope for a better life, but never getting it, never seeing any way to it, and it only getting worse was extremely painful at times. Hope itself became a source of pain. At least I knew if I was in Hell, it was done. I'd have been free from hope and could accept what I was resigned to.

Yet this issue is the one thing that stopped me the last time I was on the brink. I still didn't want to not be with God bad enough, that I could not finish the task.

Its hard to really explain the mindset to someone who hasn't truely been there.

Bless...ArtS