Question regarding submission between men and women

[Newsboysfan84]

About this whole women are supposed to submit to men thing. What if the guy let's it get to his head that he has control over his woman. What if he decides he wants to have control over every aspect of her life?

Ex: Like if she wanted to go shopping, she'd first have to ask to use the car, then ask to go shopping, then once she got there she'd have to call him at home to say she was there and call him before she left the mall.

And what about women who are physically abused by their men? Should they still be told to submit to their guy?

[KrispyKritter]

While that type of situation would be most unfortunate... circumstances do not dictate our responsibility to be obedient to the Word of God.

Situation Ethics do not apply to the Christian life.

[KrispyKritter]

Let me point out... however... that the obvious exception would be if the husband demanded his wife do something sinful. In that case, her first loyalty is to be toward God.

If a woman is being beaten, she should leave... for her safety, and that of her children. I'll let someone else answer the sticky question of remarriage... but divorce, I believe, is allowable in this situation. And if I know the husband who is doing the beating... I would be more than happy to teach him how it feels. Men like that are not "men".

[Teresa]

Well like I tell my husband when he brings up my duty of submission, that I will happily comply when he shows me that he loves me as Christ loves the church.

Not that I am not a very good wife. I am. But I have heard out of many men's mouth about the wife and her duties. Well they have their own. It is a mutal thing in my opinion.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by Teresa
Well like I tell my husband when he brings up my duty of submission, that I will happily comply when he shows me that he loves me as Christ loves the church.

Not that I am not a very good wife. I am. But I have heard out of many men's mouth about the wife and her duties. Well they have their own. It is a mutal thing in my opinion.

Well... again, Situation Ethics do not apply. When you submit to your husband you are essentially submitting to God and His Word. It's just as disobedient for you to not submit as it is for him not to love you as Christ loved the church.

Eph. 5:22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

Thats not a suggestion.

Eph. 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her...

Again... not a suggestion.

We are not to put conditions on our obedience to God. Think outside of your marriage... we are commanded to love people who use us, abuse us, and sin against us. I've never heard a believer successfully say "Well, I'm not loving that person until they love me and treat me right!"

Why then do we do that to our spouses... and think it's scriptural?

If your husband is sitting there thinking "I'll love her like Christ loved the church as soon as she starts submitting..." ...and you sit there thinking "I'll submit as soon as he starts loving me as Christ loves the church..." ...you'll never get anywhere! Someone has to make a move.

The more spiritually mature one will be the one to make the first move... will it be you?

[antsinmypants]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
We are not to put conditions on our obedience to God. Think outside of your marriage... we are commanded to love people who use us, abuse us, and sin against us. I've never heard a believer successfully say "Well, I'm not loving that person until they love me and treat me right!"

Why then do we do that to our spouses... and think it's scriptural?

If your husband is sitting there thinking "I'll love her like Christ loved the church as soon as she starts submitting..." ...and you sit there thinking "I'll submit as soon as he starts loving me as Christ loves the church..." ...you'll never get anywhere! Someone has to make a move.

The more spiritually mature one will be the one to make the first move... will it be you?


I agree.
It kinda goes hand in hand with the directive about fathers and the children..... and unfortunately- that happens to be one of my weak points.

It's not situational... and many husbands have been won by their wife's effectual prayer, and quiet, humble and submitting spirit.

The difference comes, when he tells you to do something that is clearly against the bible.... atleast that's what I'm now understanding in light of Torah, Ephesians, Corinthians, Timothy and Titus...

Remember also, near that scripture it speaks of masters and slaves.. and that slaves are to submit as well.. with the same directive.. so long as it isn't against G-d. (not that women are slaves or children mind you!!)

:wave

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by antsinmypants
(not that women are slaves or children mind you!!)

They're not? Dang!

[Rom831]

I believe wives are to submit to their husbands in every instance EXCEPT where submitting to them goes against God's will. If a husband tells a wife to prostitute herself, she obviously shouldn't submit to him because she would be thus going against God.

I believe the same goes for an abusive husband. God does not tell us to submit to abuse. He tells us not to repay it for that is His right, not ours. But the times I can see followers abused, they did not stay there willingly to be abused but 'kicked the dust off their sandals' and departed.

The unfortunate side of this debate is it usually focuses on the wife's command to submit and doesn't focus nearly enough on what exactly the husband is expected to do. The husband is suppose to equal Christ in his treatment of his bride. If husbands would do this, submission would be a non-issue.

Bless...ArtS

[antsinmypants]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
They're not? Dang!

:P: ;): :pound

[antsinmypants]

Originally posted by Rom831
The unfortunate side of this debate is it usually focuses on the wife's command to submit and doesn't focus nearly enough on what exactly the husband is expected to do. The husband is suppose to equal Christ in his treatment of his bride. If husbands would do this, submission would be a non-issue.

This might be true, but sadly, there are no mentors who are being Titus 2 examples in other's lives.

No older men teaching the younger how to do this..

No older women teaching the younger how to do this..


That's where most of us are hitting the crisis button... and where many are deciding to make a stand and become Titus 2 "leaders".


Sometimes/Usually, it takes the submitting to the husband --- for the husband to realise he needs to lead, and that he IS leading.

Men are typically banged up and told how worthless they are and "oh by the way, here's your hunny-do list... nag nag nag"..

We can't be that way.. and they can't live like that.

And they get it all day at work too no doubt.. because I've been in atleast 7 work environments already that have been JUST that. Feminazi attitudes all against the men.. and they got their fill every day!! (not to mention, so did I :tape2)

But, if we submit by example, they usually lead by example.

My fiance and I are working on this, and I think things are shaping up. :wave

[Tominator]

The greatest gift G-d ever gave me was my own salvation. I love Him most of all.

A great gift that G-d has given me is my wife. I love her dearly as I love G-d's church.

G-d has given my wife and I the wonder and gift of two of His very own little boys to care for and raise just for Him.

I am not worthy to receive any gift. But I receive His blessings and gifts and praise and thank Him every day.

I am not worthy to lead or to teach any one. But I accept the responsibility. I am still learning what this means. But I do believe that as a husband and a father my role and respnosibility is G-d given. That keeps me humble, keeps me looking to my Bible for instruction, and actually scares me a little bit. For me, a little "fear of the L-rd" goes a long way when I know I am to lead, teach, and love my wife and children!

My wife is supportive, patient, inspiring, and a woman who loves G-d most of all.

My wife does expect me to lead, teach and be a man of G-d. So, not only does G-d expect me to assume my role as husband and father...my wife expects the same thing.

That is a lot to live up to. My wife understands the role of a husband and father and does her part to empower me to be successful for G-d.

That is, she is submissive. She submits but expects me to take the lead during family devotions. She submits, but expects me to answer questions about Bible study. She submits, but expects me to teach our children to pray, to honor their parents, and to bring them up as men of G-d.

How does she love me when I lead? She loves when I turn the Worship music on loud early Sunday morning to get everyone out of bed and ready for church. She loves when I answer questions from our Bible study group. She loves when I say grace. She loves when I help at the church. She loves when I stand forth and pray publicly, even though that is difficult for me. She loves when I remind her that we shouldn't gossip.

She loves her role which is to be submissive because she was given that special role by G-d! ...and trusts G-d to help me lead and teach our family.

You know what? None of us are perfect. My wife knows that. She loves me if I make a mistake, or am impatient, or a bit harsh with her or the kids. I love her when she nags or give me a hard time. She is on a pedestal, always, as far as I am concerned....and she knows it.

There is no order here. I don't love her because she is submissive first. She is not submissive because I earned it or love her enough. We both know what the Bible says and assume our G-d directed roles.

My entire family was saved a little over one year ago. What a gift! What a tsunami of Grace! How fortunate I am to have my entire family given the gift of salvation all at once!!

:angel I KNOW we'll all be together immediately at the rapture forevermore!!

It breaks my heart and makes me pray, for all spouses and parents that don't know the same thing. :cry

Knowing what G-d did for my family brings me to my knees. The responsibilty He has placed on me as a husband and father keeps me there. :hail

I think that is how it is supposed to work.

[antsinmypants]

Amein Tominator!

[Elizabeth_S]

Originally posted by Tominator
The greatest gift G-d ever gave me was my own salvation. I love Him most of all.

A great gift that G-d has given me is my wife. I love her dearly as I love G-d's church.

G-d has given my wife and I the wonder and gift of two of His very own little boys to care for and raise just for Him.

I am not worthy to receive any gift. But I receive His blessings and gifts and praise and thank Him every day.

I am not worthy to lead or to teach any one. But I accept the responsibility. I am still learning what this means. But I do believe that as a husband and a father my role and respnosibility is G-d given. That keeps me humble, keeps me looking to my Bible for instruction, and actually scares me a little bit. For me, a little "fear of the L-rd" goes a long way when I know I am to lead, teach, and love my wife and children!

My wife is supportive, patient, inspiring, and a woman who loves G-d most of all.

My wife does expect me to lead, teach and be a man of G-d. So, not only does G-d expect me to assume my role as husband and father...my wife expects the same thing.

That is a lot to live up to. My wife understands the role of a husband and father and does her part to empower me to be successful for G-d.

That is, she is submissive. She submits but expects me to take the lead during family devotions. She submits, but expects me to answer questions about Bible study. She submits, but expects me to teach our children to pray, to honor their parents, and to bring them up as men of G-d.

How does she love me when I lead? She loves when I turn the Worship music on loud early Sunday morning to get everyone out of bed and ready for church. She loves when I answer questions from our Bible study group. She loves when I say grace. She loves when I help at the church. She loves when I stand forth and pray publicly, even though that is difficult for me. She loves when I remind her that we shouldn't gossip.

She loves her role which is to be submissive because she was given that special role by G-d! ...and trusts G-d to help me lead and teach our family.

You know what? None of us are perfect. My wife knows that. She loves me if I make a mistake, or am impatient, or a bit harsh with her or the kids. I love her when she nags or give me a hard time. She is on a pedestal, always, as far as I am concerned....and she knows it.

There is no order here. I don't love her because she is submissive first. She is not submissive because I earned it or love her enough. We both know what the Bible says and assume our G-d directed roles.

My entire family was saved a little over one year ago. What a gift! What a tsunami of Grace! How fortunate I am to have my entire family given the gift of salvation all at once!!

:angel I KNOW we'll all be together immediately at the rapture forevermore!!

It breaks my heart and makes me pray, for all spouses and parents that don't know the same thing. :cry

Knowing what G-d did for my family brings me to my knees. The responsibilty He has placed on me as a husband and father keeps me there. :hail

I think that is how it is supposed to work.

What an awesome testimony! I know it is not perfect, but you sure make it sound so Tominator.

What a world this would be if we all submitted to God like this. Everything would fall into place if we would just live as God wants us to.

Obedience is so difficult sometimes. But you sure make it sound wonderful. It sounds a lot like my life, only my hubby is not saved, but I try to do my part. And the rest comes.

I have faith that someday my hubby will be saved and he will be ready to assume his roll as the spiritual head of our family. I believe God is already preparing hubby for his roll in His family.

[Raphael]

"Submitting yourselves ONE TO ANOTHER in the fear of the Lord" (Eph 5:21)

I think some of the confusion in some men's minds stems from a belief that we, as men, are endowed with some sort of skilled superiority when it comes to "leadership". We are definetely called to bear the burden of leadership, alleviating our wives from having to fret over issues such as "where will we live" or "Should I/you quit this job". Note: this does not include "What color are the drapes going to be?" Also, we are to be the spiritual leader in our home.

I think Biblical submission is one EQUAL submitting oneself to another EQUAL, in either direction. My number one (human) counselor in this life is my wife. I am obligated to listen to her in matters in which she has the better instincts - and vice versa.

Now - if the husband is "ordering" the wife, say, not to go to church, then the wife has the right/obligation to stay in the "chain of command", but access a higher authority - God himself, who would clearly tell her: "Go to church".

[antsinmypants]

In the words of a wise, yet unsaved man..

"just because it seems cultural.. doesn't make it ok not to obey a mitzvot (Command) of G-d".

:):

[pilgrimgal]

The issue the original poster brought up was a situation in which the husband expected CONTROL, not biblical submission. This can be a form of abuse- and for many couples it is how the abuse begins. So telling a woman to submit to that kind of control can be dangerous to her.

It is beginning to come across as though everyone is advocating that when you say "I do" the man becomes king of his castle and the woman nothing but a doormat. I can go along with the kind of the castle thing- I try to treat DH as such most of the time:): but not the being a doormat. I've read enough of Krispy's posts to blieve that that's not REALLY how he looks at it. But it's coming across that way.

[ButNowIC]

My inlaws have been "in the church" for their entire marriage. They are now in their late 70s or early 80s. They both claim Christ as Saviour. He has always dominated and controlled her as well as belittled her to the point of nausea while she has remained submissive to the extreme. She has no identity except to do his bidding. If she has any kind of opinion, she airs it secretly out of his range. I was dismayed to learn that he even dictates her letters and emails. He lacks humility. He seems like a pharisee. Both of their sons learned by example of their father. The training they received has created carbon copies of their dad, yet they steadfastly and fanatically attend church.

:mad I quit taking it from their son three years ago by setting boundaries, and I am much happier to no longer feel like a puppet. :tape He seems willing to keep things as they are which is that we share the bills, attend to our remaining at-home child, and stay away from each other as much as possible. Extreme submission only enables the abuser to continue. When the husband has no regard for his wife and her feelings, submission doesn't work. I expect a whole lot of flaming for posting this, but I am giving a personal testimony. BTW, our oldest two children don't see or have anything to do with their dad either. It's sad.

God didn't intend for it to be grossly one-sided. Women who don't set boundaries become enablers for abusers. :tape

DH and inlaws follow WOF. I can't stomach it. DH considers me a black sheep for saying the teachings are heresy. Therefore, from such, I have withdrawn myself. In spite of it all, the joy of the Lord sustains me. *adorns self with flame-retardant suit*

[Hootmon]

Its a symbiotic relationship. Not a paracitic one.

The Woman needs to give Respect, and the Man needs to give Love.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by ButNowIC
My inlaws have been "in the church" for their entire marriage. They are now in their late 70s or early 80s. They both claim Christ as Saviour. He has always dominated and controlled her as well as belittled her to the point of nausea while she has remained submissive to the extreme. She has no identity except to do his bidding. If she has any kind of opinion, she airs it secretly out of his range. I was dismayed to learn that he even dictates her letters and emails. He lacks humility. He seems like a pharisee. Both of their sons learned by example of their father. The training they received has created carbon copies of their dad, yet they steadfastly and fanatically attend church.

:mad I quit taking it from their son three years ago by setting boundaries, and I am much happier to no longer feel like a puppet. :tape He seems willing to keep things as they are which is that we share the bills, attend to our remaining at-home child, and stay away from each other as much as possible. Extreme submission only enables the abuser to continue. When the husband has no regard for his wife and her feelings, submission doesn't work. I expect a whole lot of flaming for posting this, but I am giving a personal testimony. BTW, our oldest two children don't see or have anything to do with their dad either. It's sad.

God didn't intend for it to be grossly one-sided. Women who don't set boundaries become enablers for abusers. :tape

DH and inlaws follow WOF. I can't stomach it. DH considers me a black sheep for saying the teachings are heresy. Therefore, from such, I have withdrawn myself. In spite of it all, the joy of the Lord sustains me. *adorns self with flame-retardant suit*

In a perfect world we would all know how to execute every biblical command perfectly... but that usually isnt the case.

I'm not in any way suggesting that this pertains to everyone who struggles with dominating husbands... but I do believe in many cases these attributes showed themselves in different ways during the dating period. Therefore, a lot of this lopsided domination (which is not leadership) could have been avoided if the woman paid attention BEFORE marriage. Same for men who complain their wives are over bearing. You're telling me people don't see this before marriage? But hormones and sex drives rule the day and we are blinded by it. Also, in todays society hardly anyone (including people in the church!) waits until marriage to have sex. And that blinds us.

I think that if we would train our young people in the scriptures about chasity and about godly marriages, and how to be a godly spouse... we would nip a lot of this in the bud. Not every time... but a lot of the time.

ButNowIC, can you honestly tell me that if you could go back in time and relive your courtship that you wouldn't see signs of problems w/your husband? Unfortunately, wisdom comes with age and experience.

By posting this, please know that I am not casting judgement on ANYONE... just pointing out that some of these extreme cases could have been avoided w/ a little more spiritual discernment and applying of Biblical principles.

[Hyssop]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
In a perfect world we would all know how to execute every biblical command perfectly... but that usually isnt the case.

I'm not in any way suggesting that this pertains to everyone who struggles with dominating husbands... but I do believe in many cases these attributes showed themselves in different ways during the dating period. Therefore, a lot of this lopsided domination (which is not leadership) could have been avoided if the woman paid attention BEFORE marriage. Same for men who complain their wives are over bearing. You're telling me people don't see this before marriage? But hormones and sex drives rule the day and we are blinded by it. Also, in todays society hardly anyone (including people in the church!) waits until marriage to have sex. And that blinds us.

I think that if we would train our young people in the scriptures about chasity and about godly marriages, and how to be a godly spouse... we would nip a lot of this in the bud. Not every time... but a lot of the time.

ButNowIC, can you honestly tell me that if you could go back in time and relive your courtship that you wouldn't see signs of problems w/your husband? Unfortunately, wisdom comes with age and experience.

By posting this, please know that I am not casting judgement on ANYONE... just pointing out that some of these extreme cases could have been avoided w/ a little more spiritual discernment and applying of Biblical principles.

AMEN.


I actually attempted to say something like what you wrote above in another thread awhile back, but I failed miserably and got flamed. You said it best. Wonderful post, thank you for presenting clearly what I could not put into words.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by Hyssop
AMEN.


I actually attempted to say something like what you wrote above in another thread awhile back, but I failed miserably and got flamed. You said it best. Wonderful post, thank you for presenting clearly what I could not put into words.

Oh that I could be that eloquent all the time!

[Tominator]

I imagine if all men had to slave 7 years in the fields for the right to marry, they may appreciate their wives a little more. (I am still learning my scriptures...but wasn't Jacob in love with Rachel but had to work real hard for her hand?):thumb

What I am getting at is taht I think fathers should take a strong role in the courtship of their precious daughters ...

...and should set a solid Christian example to raise their sons to be worthy of a good Christian woman.

We have forgotten in this culture the form of the original church...I think it was the family?:tape

KrispyKritter you have a lot of wisdom. ....
:angel

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by Tominator
I imagine if all men had to slave 7 years in the fields for the right to marry, they may appreciate their wives a little more. (I am still learning my scriptures...but wasn't Jacob in love with Rachel but had to work real hard for her hand?):thumb

What I am getting at is taht I think fathers should take a strong role in the courtship of their precious daughters ...

...and should set a solid Christian example to raise their sons to be worthy of a good Christian woman.

We have forgotten in this culture the form of the original church...I think it was the family?:tape

KrispyKritter you have a lot of wisdom. ....
:angel

I agree w/u 100% (not the part about me having wisdom... thats debatable!).

I dont have a daughter, I father 3 young sons... and I hope I can instill in them the idea of sacrificial love toward their wives. I dont have it down pat myself. One thing I do want to do is teach them what kind of wife to look for too. Fortunately, I have a sweet godly wife who can model that for them.

Not every family is as fortunate as mine... but scripture is right there, showing us.

If I did have a daughter (and there is still a chance it may happen) ... may God have mercy on any young man who wants to court her! (and there is a difference between courting and dating!) ...I'm a redneck ex-Marine good ol' boy who owns firearms!

[msvol]

In my own personal situation, which was Horrible
beyond belief, God said "Act kindly NO MATTER WHAT.
DO NOT react when he tries to go after you.
I mean 24/7 LOVE LOVE LOVE. Don't worry about what
is or isn't fair and right. You do the right thing for ME
and I will take care of everything else." I was obedent
to God and did as He said. Yes it got lots worse, but
I was faithful and it became a habit, it softened my heart
and I saw my DH through Jesus's eyes for the 1st time.
It took a long time but when my DH realized it was the
real thing. That I respected Him as the Head of our
Home...He became the husband I had dreamed of.
Now we have been married 18 years and literally could
not be happier and serving Christ together. It is awesome.
You cannot say I will if He will. God doesn't work like that.
Jesus wants your pride laid at his feet/yeah it hurts/but
is what He needs from us, Jesus takes care of the details
if you just let Him be in control...

[KrispyKritter]

Little indent problem there?

[antsinmypants]

Originally posted by Tominator
I imagine if all men had to slave 7 years in the fields for the right to marry, they may appreciate their wives a little more. (I am still learning my scriptures...but wasn't Jacob in love with Rachel but had to work real hard for her hand?):thumb


oooohhhh my :doh


I was just complaining about my LONNNNG wait.. that if I have to wait three more years.. that it will make for 7 years of courtship before I have married my fiance.. and how I will be the one in the family with the longest "dating" and engagement period, and how this didn't seem right.

:doh

...and i've been steaming a little here and there for a week about it...

:doh


I think I need to go back and study Yitzakh and Rivkah again. :freaked :doh


Thanks for posting that as a reminder.. sometimes this struggle is hard with the way this world has made it so difficult for us to get jobs and keep them to sustain a family!

I do believe it was a bit longer than 7 years for them.. as the terms kept changing and Yitzakh married Leah first..

:angel

[SeaDreamer]

Msvol, that was awesome. :thumb

[ButNowIC]

ButNowIC, can you honestly tell me that if you could go back in time and relive your courtship that you wouldn't see signs of problems w/your husband? Unfortunately, wisdom comes with age and experience.

If I was able to relive our courtship, there probably would have been some subtle clues. I sure didn't see them if they were there though. He was actually quite attentive and caring. He visited with my parents and and was personable to them. After marriage, it completely stopped.

I had many Sunday dinners at his parents', and it should have been my first clue. Future FIL appeared overly strict. Everyone tiptoed around him, including DH. DH didn't like his dad. I didn't care for him either. Future DH didn't act like that or seem like that.

After marriage, DH changed completely. MIL told me that her DH swept her off of her feet before marriage too. Who would actually tolerate someone who treated them badly? These types are Mr. Charm to sell themselves. I don't know why. Same thing with his brother and his wife. It just must be a family thing.
:confused

[Moony2ns]

I've been going back and forth, wondering if I should reply to this thread. But I guess I feel a leading...

My entire salvation story is pretty much rooted in submission to my husband, or rather, it's tied to it. I have explained my situation before, but it has been a while and I can no longer link to it, so here it goes again:

A few years ago, my husband and I were having major issues. To make a long story short, he was overbearing, hurtful, sarcastic, and whole lot of other things. I had a long list of faults myself, but I decided to focus on his instead. This hurt us in the intimacy department, which in turn caused everything to spiral further downhill.

One day, I was in the kitchen, talking out loud to God and saying things like, "Can you believe him? Do you see what I have to put up with? Boy, you sure have your work cut out for You." And then I thought back to all the times I had prayed that my husband would change... that he'd become the spiritual leader of the family... yada yada yada.

That's when God literally spoke to me. It was me talking to myself, but it was so powerful and there's not a doubt in my mind that it was Him speaking to me. He said, "Listen to yourself for a moment. Do you not have any responsibility in this matter? You can't think of anything you have said or done to contribute to this problem? Why should I give you your desires when you refuse to follow mine? You realize, you really aren't better than him in the sin department, you just refuse to acknowledge it."

HELLO!

I thought I was a Christian before this had happened. But I also had had my fleeting doubts, but that's a story for another time. I dropped to my knees right there in the kitchen and sobbed... and I truly saw my depravity, and more importantly I acknowledged it, confessed it, and repented from it. I died to myself, gave up my old identity, and surrendered my life to Christ. In return, He took the world's blinders off and gave me new eyes, a new heart, a new insight to absolutely everything. It was instantaneous! I praised Him and I continue to do so.

That night, I was so excited I could hardly contain myself. I sat my husband down to give him the news and he looked at me like :twitch . He was skeptical, at best. I blah blah blahed about how I had changed and how I understood and what I was going to do and what I was NOT going to do, etc. etc. I was basically a blithering idiot. :B: I emphasized that from that moment on, I was going to step down as head of the household and give full control to my husband. I was no longer going to do the finances and I was simply going to respect and trust in him to do all that BECAUSE I trusted in the Lord who is faithful to us always and I knew He would bless me for my obedience. I just knew it! I had faith!

Before all of this, my husband and I really had a Mother/son relationship. He would ask permission for everything, for instance, to buy something. I would say we don't have the money. An argument would insue because I had obviously misused the budget (such that it was) and I would start in on how much he spent, etc. etc. I never wanted to give up that control because I "assumed" that he would find the new freedom as a license to spend spend spend, abuse abuse abuse.

But you see, I had told my husband that night that I had complete faith that God was going to guide my husband, that I respected him enough to give back the role he was intended to have. I exuded confidence in my husband where I had not before. And I have to tell you, I really had to wing it, because the respect still wasn't there yet. Too many years of disrespect, of bitterness, had hardened me, but I saw so much hope. I vowed to respect my husband beyond anything else because that is was God wanted me to do.

As weeks passed, I found myself "giving of myself" where I really didn't want to. But it wasn't submission to my husband... it was submission to the Lord and I found such great joy in it, even when it was something I didn't want to do. Because of my submission, my faithfulness in the Lord, my husband changed too. He recognized that my change was of God, and that this was his big chance to do the right thing. In other words, God was leading him... God was being faithful to me by turning my husband into the man I had always dreamed of.

I really could go on and on with examples of how things change and how I did it, but it would take days to do it. The biggest change was the finances. He would come to me and ask to buy something and instead of grousing, I would say "You are the head of our home. If you feel this purchase is something you feel is necessary or will make our lives better, I will trust you." See, the responsibility was no longer on my shoulders (where it didn't belong) but squarely on his. I found such sweet freedom in this.

To clarify, all decisions are discussed together. I always have an opinion on everything and I will always express it... respectfully. But when it comes right down to it, he makes the final decision because in the end, he's the one who answers for it.

So, what I'm really trying to say in this incredibly long post is that God changes men through their wives faithfulness to Him. When a woman puts her trust FULLY in the Lord, He is faithful and just and will bless her abundantly. If the man refuses the leading of the HS to go his own way (to be abusive, to control, etc) then he will answer for that. I also have more opinions as to what a woman should do in those instances, but this post is already too long.

I want my testimony to be a blessing... to show that it isn't about "control" or "abuse." We've been fed lies from women's orginizations that tell us that men are not capable of leading, and if they do, we are somehow inferior. It is such trash! God is the biggest supporter of women and He wants us to feel safe, secure, and free up our time to do His will. He really does know best.

Okay... believe it or not... I'm done. :B:

[Hyssop]

Originally posted by msvol
In my own personal situation, which was Horrible
beyond belief, God said "Act kindly NO MATTER WHAT.
DO NOT react when he tries to go after you.
I mean 24/7 LOVE LOVE LOVE. Don't worry about what
is or isn't fair and right. You do the right thing for ME
and I will take care of everything else." I was obedent
to God and did as He said. Yes it got lots worse, but
I was faithful and it became a habit, it softened my heart
and I saw my DH through Jesus's eyes for the 1st time.
It took a long time but when my DH realized it was the
real thing. That I respected Him as the Head of our
Home...He became the husband I had dreamed of.
Now we have been married 18 years and literally could
not be happier and serving Christ together. It is awesome.
You cannot say I will if He will. God doesn't work like that.
Jesus wants your pride laid at his feet/yeah it hurts/but
is what He needs from us, Jesus takes care of the details
if you just let Him be in control...

"He became the husband I had dreamed of....." to quote from msvol's most excellent post.

Amen! :nod :):

[Hyssop]

Originally posted by Moony2ns
I've been going back and forth, wondering if I should reply to this thread. But I guess I feel a leading...

My entire salvation story is pretty much rooted in submission to my husband, or rather, it's tied to it. I have explained my situation before, but it has been a while and I can no longer link to it, so here it goes again:

A few years ago, my husband and I were having major issues. To make a long story short, he was overbearing, hurtful, sarcastic, and whole lot of other things. I had a long list of faults myself, but I decided to focus on his instead. This hurt us in the intimacy department, which in turn caused everything to spiral further downhill.

One day, I was in the kitchen, talking out loud to God and saying things like, "Can you believe him? Do you see what I have to put up with? Boy, you sure have your work cut out for You." And then I thought back to all the times I had prayed that my husband would change... that he'd become the spiritual leader of the family... yada yada yada.

That's when God literally spoke to me. It was me talking to myself, but it was so powerful and there's not a doubt in my mind that it was Him speaking to me. He said, "Listen to yourself for a moment. Do you not have any responsibility in this matter? You can't think of anything you have said or done to contribute to this problem? Why should I give you your desires when you refuse to follow mine? You realize, you really aren't better than him in the sin department, you just refuse to acknowledge it."

HELLO!

I thought I was a Christian before this had happened. But I also had had my fleeting doubts, but that's a story for another time. I dropped to my knees right there in the kitchen and sobbed... and I truly saw my depravity, and more importantly I acknowledged it, confessed it, and repented from it. I died to myself, gave up my old identity, and surrendered my life to Christ. In return, He took the world's blinders off and gave me new eyes, a new heart, a new insight to absolutely everything. It was instantaneous! I praised Him and I continue to do so.

That night, I was so excited I could hardly contain myself. I sat my husband down to give him the news and he looked at me like :twitch . He was skeptical, at best. I blah blah blahed about how I had changed and how I understood and what I was going to do and what I was NOT going to do, etc. etc. I was basically a blithering idiot. :B: I emphasized that from that moment on, I was going to step down as head of the household and give full control to my husband. I was no longer going to do the finances and I was simply going to respect and trust in him to do all that BECAUSE I trusted in the Lord who is faithful to us always and I knew He would bless me for my obedience. I just knew it! I had faith!

Before all of this, my husband and I really had a Mother/son relationship. He would ask permission for everything, for instance, to buy something. I would say we don't have the money. An argument would insue because I had obviously misused the budget (such that it was) and I would start in on how much he spent, etc. etc. I never wanted to give up that control because I "assumed" that he would find the new freedom as a license to spend spend spend, abuse abuse abuse.

But you see, I had told my husband that night that I had complete faith that God was going to guide my husband, that I respected him enough to give back the role he was intended to have. I exuded confidence in my husband where I had not before. And I have to tell you, I really had to wing it, because the respect still wasn't there yet. Too many years of disrespect, of bitterness, had hardened me, but I saw so much hope. I vowed to respect my husband beyond anything else because that is was God wanted me to do.

As weeks passed, I found myself "giving of myself" where I really didn't want to. But it wasn't submission to my husband... it was submission to the Lord and I found such great joy in it, even when it was something I didn't want to do. Because of my submission, my faithfulness in the Lord, my husband changed too. He recognized that my change was of God, and that this was his big chance to do the right thing. In other words, God was leading him... God was being faithful to me by turning my husband into the man I had always dreamed of.

I really could go on and on with examples of how things change and how I did it, but it would take days to do it. The biggest change was the finances. He would come to me and ask to buy something and instead of grousing, I would say "You are the head of our home. If you feel this purchase is something you feel is necessary or will make our lives better, I will trust you." See, the responsibility was no longer on my shoulders (where it didn't belong) but squarely on his. I found such sweet freedom in this.

But when it comes right down to it, he makes the final decision because in the end, he's the one who answers for it.

So, what I'm really trying to say in this incredibly long post is that God changes men through their wives faithfulness to Him. When a woman puts her trust FULLY in the Lord, He is faithful and just and will bless her abundantly. If the man refuses the leading of the HS to go his own way (to be abusive, to control, etc) then he will answer for that. I also have more opinions as to what a woman should do in those instances, but this post is already too long.

I want my testimony to be a blessing... to show that it isn't about "control" or "abuse." We've been fed lies from women's orginizations that tell us that men are not capable of leading, and if they do, we are somehow inferior. It is such trash! God is the biggest supporter of women and He wants us to feel safe, secure, and free up our time to do His will. He really does know best.



Yes, this is the type of truth that needs telling!

(This is the best day ever, everything I've wanted to say on RR but wasn't able to write out clearly has been posted by brothers and sisters here, I'm rejoicing!)

Just like in msvol's post- there is a point of submitting to the Lord completely about your marriage, I've been at that point, and I know what you are saying is truth. It takes a letting go and letting the Holy Spirit work... letting go of the fears and/or the control and looking forward with faith instead of backwards. Speaking from personal first hand experience, I'm pleading with wives to read these posts and pray about them, so many blessings can come out of a restored relationship when everything is put into it's proper order.

Such "sweet freedom," well said. Amen.

[SeaDreamer]

Moony2ns......WOW. Between you and Msvol, I'm falling over here.


Better words have never been spoken. I'm speechless.

I have personally experienced exactly what you both have talked about. Details are different but results are identical.

Over time hubby has slowly moved into his leadership role because I finally vacated that position. But I had to vacate it first. There wasn't room for both of us there.

And, oh, the wonderful freedom of allowing him to lead. Spiritually it's like falling back into a soft chair with a glass of icewater after you've run a marathon.


And the funny thing is I was just thinking about this thread earlier today and realized it's all about submitting to the Lord.

Ok, I'm not so speechless. :laugh

[Hyssop]

Originally posted by SeaDreamer
Moony2ns......WOW. Between you and Msvol, I'm falling over here.


Better words have never been spoken. I'm speechless.

I have personally experienced exactly what you both have talked about. Details are different but results are identical.

Over time hubby has slowly moved into his leadership role because I finally vacated that position. But I had to vacate it first. There wasn't room for both of us there.

And, oh, the wonderful freedom of allowing him to lead. Spiritually it's like falling back into a soft chair with a glass of icewater after you've run a marathon.


And the funny thing is I was just thinking about this thread earlier today and realized it's all about submitting to the Lord.

Ok, I'm not so speechless. :laugh

:nod :thumb Exactly, woo hoo!

(Yeah, we know, SD speechless? :heh)

[PureJoy]

I just have to say Tominator that your testimony truly moved me. Just beautiful!

I am learning to be a submissive wife and this is after being in an abusive, adulterous first marriage.

My husband is a new believer (2 years) and I have been the one that has basically lead the household all these 11 years. I'm seeing, that as I become more submissive he is becoming more of a leader.

It's not in my nature to be submissive but neither is it in my nature to do a lot of other things scripture tells us. I have to lean on the Lord and become broken time and time again to achieve this and it's not easy. But as I see my husband grow spiritually and slowly begin to take the lead, it makes it very worth it. The other benefit of this is that my relationship with God becomes stronger each time I become weaker.

The joy of the Lord is MY strength!

[KrispyKritter]

Hi everyone, this is Krispy's wife writing. This is the first time I have ever posted on here, so be kind. From a woman's perspective, let me tell you that godly submission can and does bring forth fruit in a marriage.

Krispy and I were married before we knew the Lord. I was led to the Lord by a good friend who modeled godly submission to me. It was not in my nature to do this. Krispy was rather hard to handle in those days, and though he was not "dominate", he was set in his ways and if things didn't go his way he could be a real bear about it.

As I grew in the Lord I learned to let him take the lead, even when he was hostile about me going to church, and the amount of time I spent there. To him, an hour at church was too long. I learned to balance it out so that he didn't feel it was interfering with his needs. I also discussed spiritual things with him when he was open to them, which became more often as time went on.

Finally, after trying to put on a peaceful and loving spirit, I got through to him, and one night an old Marine buddy of his led him to the Lord.

We have been given a promise that through our obedience to the Word and loving our husbands, we can win them to Christ. It worked for my dear husband, and he is not who he used to be. He makes me feel like a princess, and I truly know that he loves me like Christ loves the church. People who knew him before don't even recognize him compared to who he used to be.

God was faithful to His promise in my situation, and He will be to your's as well. It takes patience, but either God is faithful, or He is a liar.

[msvol]

Ladies,
I know this is not easy at all. In fact it will be the hardest
most infuriating thing you will ever do. Satan will step up
the attacks and your DH will be the biggest pain in neck
ever. When I first started on my journey, 2 weeks later
my husband took me outside (So kids wouldn't hear)
and raked me over the coals about everywrong decision
I had ever made since I was 16. Talk about humbling, it
took 2 hours :pound . Wasn't funny at the time. Inbetween
each story He would scream "What is wrong with you, why
don't you stand up for yourself? Are you so sorry that you
can't even open your mouth?" I knew if I said 1 word that
He would feel justified that "I had brought it all on myself"
This was the turning point for us. I leaned on Christ for
2 hours to seal my mouth and keep me from crying.
This road is not smooth but the Lord is Faithful, rely on
his strength not your own. I hope this will help others.
PS it is permissable to go to the bathroom and silently
scream into a towel
:D:

[antsinmypants]

Amein Krispy's Wife & MrsVol.

Amein!

I, too.. am learning this- though before marriage.. and it is hard sometimes.

[joint heir]

well I am going to be flamed for saying this.....but I am going to say it anyway....:):

If any woman does not submit to her husband then she is just flat out ignoring scripture.....it is part of the christian experience to submit to one another out of love

and what those of you who have given testimonies have said is basically you stopped being selfish and treating your husband like a child....you started thinking about him instead of yourself...you stopped retaliating when provoked....this is all christianity 101...

Any time that a woman submits to her husband things will get better in a marriage because not only is christianity the right thing because God says so....it happens to work...imagine that...:):

but additional blessings come to a marriage when the husband begins submitting as well...as instructed for all believers....somehow we just stop teaching submission beyond the wife.....and there is no biblical basis to do so....this whole men love /women submit thing...is just not biblical....

every christian is instucted to love and lay down their life and every christian is instructed to submit and there is no getting around it....and honestly no one should want to get around it ....because it is in the dying to self that you find blessing

My testimony is that I have spent time in all three stages....

no submission.....the worst!
me submitting to him....much much better
mutual submission....blessing beyond imagination

submission starts with you....it is your voluntary service and a act of placing yourself under everyone else.....it is balanced by christian boundaries....where your service goes to your family first...



so anyway....there you have it....onward with the flames:):

[antsinmypants]

Originally posted by joint heir
so anyway....there you have it....onward with the flames:):

No flames, just 100% agreement

[joint heir]

did you read the whole thing?:):


I am not used to 100% agreement:D: :confused

[Hyssop]

Shelly:

We only disagree with you when you are wrong. ;): :B:

[joint heir]

where is that thud smilie? because I am really thinking that you all must not have read the whole post...

since when do you guys believe that marriages should be based on mutual submission?

am I in the Twilight zone......?

I hope not....I hope this is for real...because I will be oh so happy:angel
...but I can't help but think that there has been some miscommunication

[Hyssop]

Shelly, is this a trick?.... Maybe I missed the fine print or something.... :confused

[cindyw]

Originally posted by joint heir

so anyway....there you have it....onward with the flames:):

No flames here either. Beautiful post Shelly..........hard to practice, but Truth 100% and what God expects of us in order to walk in the blessings He has for us........Thanks. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

[cindyw]

Originally posted by joint heir
since when do you guys believe that marriages should be based on mutual submission?



The Word DOES state: submitting one to another............why can't you believe there are those who actually by agreeing with you are only agreeing with scripture?????;): :laugh

edited to make sense.........:wacko

[Angyl]

:tape

[joint heir]

see well there you go.....

it was Angyl that was the one who always disagreed with me on that.....:lol

maybe he was so vocal that I thought there were multitudes disagreeing....;):

I am not trying to trick you guys....but honestly I have said that the Bible teaches mutual submission and been hounded left and right before...this is the first time it has gotten such a good reception:D: I am doing the happy dance:D: :D:

maybe I just turned a phrase really well this time....yea Holy Spirit:clap

[joint heir]

and now that I have you attention....I would like to point out that this is one of the basic premises of the egalitarian position(often called biblical feminism)....

The egalitarian position believes that the Bible is 100% the word of God 100% infallible....

the concept of mutual submission is 1/2 of the egalitarian position....so you guys are officially 1/2 egalitarian...
:D:

Satan has worked hard to demonize the egalitarian view of scripture and he has succeeded to a certain degree....but egalitarian is nothing but scriptural....I guess because feminism has such a poor conotation...but that is what the Bible teaches....the Bible is very liberating to women...

I have you all agreeing with me that mutual submission is what scripture teaches....ants and I agree that women can teach in excousia authority to men....

wow....I am really excited....I much prefer agreeing on these threads than debating:D:

[Angyl]

:twitch

[joint heir]

you are struggling aren't you Angyl.....:D:

well you have more self control than me....I broke down and entered the fray:): although I told myself I wasn't going to....

there were like 5 threads in christian chat......don't they know that is like crack cocaine to me?

:laugh ....I think I could have managed staying out of one....I am weak:D:

[Angyl]

Originally posted by joint heir
you are struggling aren't you Angyl.....:D:

:nod

[joint heir]

:sigh....Angyl has more fruit....

don't worry about it....someone will catch on in a minute and speak up....maybe Krispy will get online soon

(I still can't believe they are agreeing....but I am loving every minute:D: ...)

I would say that I am convinced that the Holy Spirit is at work here....but that would really make it hard for you to stay out...because I know how much you disagree....and I respect your opinion....

we both think we have the truth of what scripture teaches on this...or else we would not be practicing mutual submission on my part and only wife to husband on yours....

so there you go folks ....so Angyl can keep his self control and stay out....

Angyl vehemently disagrees with me:):

[BusyMom]

JH and Angyl - you guys are cracking me up!!!!

I'm not sure what joint heir means by "mutual submission", so it's hard for me to say whether I agree or not.

On another note...

I have been very encouraged by the testimonies on this thread. I have struggled with the submission thing too - In fact, I still do. I truly KNOW that submission on my part is the biblically correct response for me. I agree TOTALLY in principle, but in practice I often fail. (Romans 7!!!!!!!!!!!)

For me the issue is attitude. I usually have no trouble doing things that he asks, agreeing to his stated wishes, supporting him, etc. My problem is that I subtly convey that I really think I am more smart, spiritual, capable, etc. that he. (Boy that sounds so awful when I write it out - just shows my evil heart!!!)

Anyway, God is constantly humbling me and showing me that I really DON'T always know what is best. He also shows me that my husband is a lot more smart, spiritual, capable, etc. than I give him credit! I just need to give him a chance!

Bottom line....I am a work in progress and I really appreciate the testimonies here. They encourage me to seek and obey the Lord! Thanks gals!!

[joint heir]

mutual submission is the concept taught in Ephesians 5:21

Ephesians 5

21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

Everyone is supposed to submit to everyone....everyone places themselves under others just as Christ did .....equality is not something to be grasped...

Of course wives are supposed to submit to husbands...without a doubt....but husbands are also supposed to submit to wives as part of verse 21....

when each member of a marriage is seeking God first and placing their spouse above themselves then there is perfect harmony.....two shall become one....


I posted this on another thread....but it is important here too.....it describes how we are all to submit to one another....husbands not excluded....


submission is a tough thing....because it goes against our human nature....

but we are all to submit to one another Eph 5:21

the word submit ....means to voluntarily place yourself under....the point being you are not under....but you place yourself there as servants to others....

no one is excused from submission....we all submit to the Lord and we all submit to one another....there are not different brands of submission either....

we are all to submit like Christ submitted....and here is how he did it:

Philippians 2


Imitating Christ's Humility

1If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature[1] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature[2] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death--
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.




We are not to grasp equality with each other.....we are not to have the battle of the sexes except to compete with how much we can serve the other....if your household plays the "who can humble themselves the most" game .....your marriage will be bliss.
I speak from experience

[Hootmon]

I think many are hung up on the word 'submission'...

To submit doesnt mean to 'lose yourself'. It just means to give the requestor (your spouse) what they need.

Why wouldnt you want to do that?

[Hyssop]

Okay Shelly,

IMHO, the reason you don't expect anyone to agree with you is because you know that we shouldn't. I changed my mind and I don't agree totally BTW.

First of all I must say that I find it humorous that you noted the Holy Spirit working when people were agreeing with you. What "spirit" do you think is working when they don't agree with you I wonder? Sometimes Shelly......

You know, respectfully and with love I say- that one of these days you may learn something here, if you would step out of self appointed teacher mode for a minute and into seeker/student mode. Perhaps try stepping into the role that God lined out for us as women, it is a blessing - not a curse! Many of the men here do have much wisdom to offer.

Yes I agree that, in a broad sense, we as Christians are called to submit and/or serve one another- as Christians. Mutual respect.

Yet, in marriage the husband has an AUTHORITY over the woman. With that authority comes added responsibility, my husband is expected to lay down his life for me if needed- not cater to my every whim... I don't expect my husband, or my Lord, to bow down to me, it isn't Biblical.

IMHO You do make a good case on your own- by example, for women to not try to usurp authority or teach men. I see that it is not becoming at all- or in proper order either, even here at the board. From now on I'm going to be very careful to not do that very thing.

I'm leaving this thread because I see no reason to stay, and like I've said before I'm not interested in these endless debates. As much as I enjoy and value you as a sister in the Lord, I still am not interested in your debates.

I hope some of the men of wisdom here will speak up and show you the truth as some of the others here see it.

Remember I say this all in sisterly love and concern.

Hyssop

[Angyl]

Originally posted by Hyssop
Yes I agree that, in a broad sense, we as Christians are called to submit and/or serve one another- as Christians. Mutual respect.
:thumb

Yet, in marriage the husband has an AUTHORITY over the woman. With that authority comes added responsibility, my husband is expected to lay down his life for me if needed- not cater to my every whim... I don't expect my husband, or my Lord, to bow down to me, it isn't Biblical.

:thumb :thumb


I hope some of the men of wisdom here will speak up and show you the truth as some of the others here see it.
:freaked

:doh

:confused

:tsk

:frusty

:spit

[joint heir]

Hyssop...I learn something new every day here on RR...:)

and I am really sorry that I offend you left and right...no one else in my life seems to have the problems with me that you do....

you are more than free to use the ignore feature... just as we all are....:):
and since I have no idea how to change the way I express myself to suit you ......you are just going to have to pray for me ....

I would appreciate any prayers that would make my words that of the Holy Spirit....I think that is what we all want as christians....:)


and this is not a debate....nothing but a discussion....a debate has to have a winner imo



Angyl....I miss you

:): here is a holy kiss :kiss :D:

[Joshua's Gen]

angyl and joint heir...

pulling the rope... back and forth... on the issue of women and authority..

brings back, memories..

good times, good times..

*wipes the tear from his eye*

[joint heir]

:laugh :nod

[Hyssop]

Originally posted by joint heir
Hyssop...

and I am really sorry that I offend you left and right...no one else in my life seems to have the problems with me that you do....

Angyl....I miss you

:): here is a holy kiss :kiss :D:


:spit :tape Okay, now I'm excusing myself from this one.

Shelly, I don't use the ignore feature, but sometimes I sure wish you would.

YSIC, Hyssop

[Angyl]

Originally posted by Joshua's Gen
angyl and joint heir...

pulling the rope... back and forth... on the issue of women and authority..

brings back, memories..

good times, good times..

*wipes the tear from his eye*
:nod :pound