Views on Women Pastors Please!

[charity]

The church I am presently attending has just last week appointed a woman pastor. All these years as a Christian, I had attended a conservative church which do not advocate women preaching from the pulpit. Hence, I felt strange hearing from a woman at the pulpit.

In 1 Corinthians 14:34,35 Paul wrote 'Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.'

Does this mean that women are not to preach from the pulpit? Would like to hear your views on this. Thanks in advance.

[sandy111]

gotta stick with scripture, wemon are not
to upserp authority over a man.
wemon are not to be pastors,
this may be hard for more dominant wemon but thats what the word says.
that does not mean they can't teach althougher,
but pastor is a no no

[Patty T]

Here is a link for you to check out. I know there have been several threads/discussions about this very topic:

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?threadid=116469&highlight=women+pastors

If you do a search on "women pastors", you will find more.


God Bless,

Patty
:wave

[KrispyKritter]

What are women allowed to do in the church according scripture?

They can be deacons... citing Pheobe, as addressed by Paul. Deacon is not a position of authority, as some believe. Deacons are merely servents. In many denominations (some Southern Baptists comes to mind), however, the deacon board wields authority that is was never given in scripture. The deacon position is one of service... serving tables, taking care of people... etc etc. (Too many people think thats the pastor/elder job... it's not!)

They can teach other women, for instance older women (PattyT would qualify! .:pound Just kidding!) are to teach younger women how to love their husbands and care for their families.

Obviously women are allowed to teach children, since most were created with a natural inclination for this more then most men were.

They are not to assume authority over men. A pastor/elder obviously has authority. If everyone here agrees that a wife should submit to her husband, and the husband love the wife even unto death... then it's confusion to enter a church and have a woman in authority over that husband. It's that simple.

Not to mention that Paul (thru the inspiration of the Holy Spirit!) forbids it.

Some may not like it... but we have to live by the WHOLE counsel of God... not just the parts we like.

[Patty T]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
They can teach other women, for instance older women (PattyT would qualify! .:pound Just kidding!) are to teach younger women how to love their husbands and care for their families.


Krispy,

You are sooooo bad - good thing you're my brother :D:

Just wait, you'll be there someday :nod

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by Patty T
Krispy,

You are sooooo bad - good thing you're my brother :D:

Just wait, you'll be there someday :nod

Today... I feel like I'm there already! ... need more coffee!

[cindyw]

Good Word Krispy.

I agree completely with this. There is truth in the "cultural" reasons why Paul said what he said, but it seems that people take that and run with it. They teach what Paul stated was ONLY cultural and shouldn't be applied to today's church because we don't separate men and women in our sanctuaries as they did back then (men being up front hearing the teachings, women being in back and not hearing everything-----some shouting to their husbands to repeat what was said).

Yes, to Paul that was sharmeful behaviour. It was disruptive and wives, if they didn't hear or had questions as to what they did hear, should not shout during the teachings. They should wait til they got home and then ask their husbands.

However, the truth is that throughout the NT we do not see women as leaders over men. Yes, there were deaconnesses and according to even early church writings, these decaonnesses served WOMEN, not men. The Lord set up the makeup of mankind: Christ is the head over man, man is the head over woman. I don't understand how some see this reversed in the Church makeup..............JMHO. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

[antsinmypants]

If women taught men and women, it was with her husband at her side, in all modesty and humility--

Can a woman pastor-- do that? (unless she's just pastoring women?) :D:

[blitzkreig]

What is a "Pastor"? I think that is where to start. The word doesn't seem to have a consistent definition among Churches.

For example we have a "worship Pastor" and a "visitation Pastor" in our Church. Do folks think that these rolls are off limits to those of the female gender? I don't think most folks think these should be limited to men. How about "children's Ministries"... can a woman pastor there? I think so...

In all of these discussions which go round-and-round nobody has taken a crack at outlining a matrix of responsibilities for which they feel a woman can and/or can not contribute to...

I nominate Krispy to give it a go...

:popcorn

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by blitzkreig
What is a "Pastor"? I think that is where to start. The word doesn't seem to have a consistent definition among Churches.

For example we have a "worship Pastor" and a "visitation Pastor" in our Church. Do folks think that these rolls are off limits to those of the female gender? I don't think most folks think these should be limited to men. How about "children's Ministries"... can a woman pastor there? I think so...

In all of these discussions which go round-and-round nobody has taken a crack at outlining a matrix of responsibilities for which they feel a woman can and/or can not contribute to...

I nominate Krispy to give it a go...

:popcorn

Gee... thanx...

Pastor is a word that is mentioned once (I believe!) in the Word, and the word seems to be interchangable with the word elder. This is why you see me use the phrase pastor/elder. Its one in the same.

Elders were clearly the leaders in the church. Elders are clearly to be men, and reading the qualifications in 1 Timothy and Titus will bear that out. "Husband of one wife". Now, in Acts the apostles told the church to choose from among them 7 "men" from among them to be deacons... but later we see that Phoebe was a deacon. You never will find a woman addressed as an elder in scripture. So I think there is a presidence there.

Worship pastor... there is no such office cited in the Bible. So lets call it what it is... "Person who sings really well". Should it be a woman leading a congregation of men and women into worship? No. Thats clearly a leadership role. Some may argue against that, and I'm not entirely dogmatic about it... it's my opinion only.

Visitation... sure, so long as she is visiting women. A woman can visit families too, but in the role of service... not authority. Never should she visit a man alone.

Children's pastor? Again, no such office in scripture. I believe this is a teaching position, and I have no issue with woman teaching children, boys and girls, until the boys hit puberty. Then their teacher desperately needs to be a male role model.

Again... this is my opinion, and probably not 100% water proof.

This is how we operate in our house churches... and it works well for us.

[blitzkreig]

OK... my definition of "Pastor" would be different and I would think my "OK to do" list would differ as well.

An elder in our Church is a really old guy who makes decisions over budget matters at the monthly meatings.... I suppose the roll would be similar to a board member in a company.

My personal tilt would be that a woman could fulfil any roll except preach or teach from the pulpit. And that is primarily for optics. Not that they aren't entirely capible... but Scripture dictates it. Yes dictates. There is this think called "obediance"...

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by blitzkreig
OK... my definition of "Pastor" would be different and I would think my "OK to do" list would differ as well.

An elder in our Church is a really old guy who makes decisions over budget matters at the monthly meatings.... I suppose the roll would be similar to a board member in a company.

My personal tilt would be that a woman could fulfil any roll except preach or teach from the pulpit. And that is primarily for optics. Not that they aren't entirely capible... but Scripture dictates it. Yes dictates. There is this think called "obediance"...

Blitz, I always respect your thoughts and opinions, and I think you know that. On this issue I disagree w/you on the definition. I think that what your describing and what scripture describes is vastly different. Women in service roles and teaching other women and young children is what I see. If an elder's job is to sit in business meetings... I would never want to be one.

Also, your definition of an elder as being old is a greek oriented definition, and not exactly what the apostles had in mind. Timothy operated in an eldership role, and he was encouraged to not let anyone despise his young age.

[galpster1]

Question and possible a sidetrack - hoepfully not

If a pastor of the church asked a woman to lead a bible study or to lead lets say the marketing department is this against scripture? considering she is still under the authority of the pastor but has been delegated certian duties?

[blitzkreig]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Blitz, I always respect your thoughts and opinions, and I think you know that. On this issue I disagree w/you on the definition. I think that what your describing and what scripture describes is vastly different. Women in service roles and teaching other women and young children is what I see. If an elder's job is to sit in business meetings... I would never want to be one. Yes I am pointing out the differences of "implementing" the Scripture. Not necessarily interpreting. I don't suppose our implementation is "wrong" per se. But perhaps yours is "more correct". Our women do not lead they follow. All of the "corporate congregation facing rolls" are male. Even our current "worship pastor"... but on occasion there is a female who "fills in" when the male is indisposed. I see that as a follower not a leader.


Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Also, your definition of an elder as being old is a greek oriented definition, and not exactly what the apostles had in mind. Timothy operated in an eldership role, and he was encouraged to not let anyone despise his young age. Actually our definition is probably similar to yours... but our implementation is "old, grey men with plenty of experience in making decisions". As they are elected it must have been the will of the congregation as a whole.

[blitzkreig]

Originally posted by galpster1
Question and possible a sidetrack - hoepfully not

If a pastor of the church asked a woman to lead a bible study or to lead lets say the marketing department is this against scripture? considering she is still under the authority of the pastor but has been delegated certian duties? That is a very good question...

What of a female missionary who is home on a locum who speaks to the congregation about her field experiences by the request of the Senior Pastor?

[galpster1]

Also I was asked to speak in front of our congeration (I am a woman) to give my testimony and tell how God works in people's lives this was by direct from the Senior Pastor - was this against scripture?

[Singlesis]

What about a woman teaching an adult co-ed Sunday School class? All singles - no husband/wife scenario's. :confused

[antsinmypants]

Originally posted by Singlesis
What about a woman teaching an adult co-ed Sunday School class? All singles - no husband/wife scenario's. :confused

If someone is teaching singles, I feel they should be atleast the single's parent's age-- and a couple.

That way, there's structure, no gossip or 'fixing up' going on-- but solid teaching and strength.

Titus 2 -------- in everything.

Think Aquila and Priscilla.

[antsinmypants]

Originally posted by galpster1
Also I was asked to speak in front of our congeration (I am a woman) to give my testimony and tell how God works in people's lives this was by direct from the Senior Pastor - was this against scripture?

I think that's a little different...

[galpster1]

Originally posted by blitzkreig
That is a very good question...

What of a female missionary who is home on a locum who speaks to the congregation about her field experiences by the request of the Senior Pastor?

What about female missionaries in general can they only teach women the scriptures?

Note: I am not trying to be facious I am very curious what the scriptures say about the above. I am facing a situaation where I might be called on to lead our marketing department.

My pastor believes that women can hold these type of roles as long as she is still under the aurthority of the Pastor therefore she can lead bible studies, ministry's etc

[antsinmypants]

Think about this..

Did not ALL Of the disciples, men and women-- get told to go unto all the nations?

Is it not said that because of Paul, that many, including women and children were killed.. and scattered to spread the gospel?


Is not witnessing one on one to someone being a "Missionary"?
All believers are called to do that.

Selah

[galpster1]

Originally posted by antsinmypants
Think about this..

Did not ALL Of the disciples, men and women-- get told to go unto all the nations?

Is it not said that because of Paul, that many, including women and children were killed.. and scattered to spread the gospel?


Is not witnessing one on one to someone being a "Missionary"?
All believers are called to do that.

Selah


Ok but isn't that teaching?

[antsinmypants]

Originally posted by galpster1
Ok but isn't that teaching?

Not exactly. :):

You're talking to me.. are you teaching me? :):

[antsinmypants]

One of the disciples had daughters who prophesied.
That means to spread the news.

They were modest, submitted- and virgin daughters.


Secondly, Think about it this way:


Joe: Hi Emily how are you today?
Emily: I'm ok, how about you?
Joe: Not so great.. My wife lost the baby last night.. and we spent all night and this morning in the emergency room.
Emily: really? I'm so sorry to hear that! ::puts her hand on his shoulder:: Atleast the baby is safe in the arms of The Messiah now.
Joe: I dont' know, I don't think I believe there is a G-d anymore.
Emily: why is that? Is it because of the baby?
Joe: no, I think it's everything.. why would a G-d allow suffering like that?
Emily: well.. do your remember when we were little, and played out on the baseball field as youngsters?
Joe: Yes, what about it?
Emily: remember the time your dad told you to put your helmet on and you didn't?
Joe: Yes....
Emily: ::pauses::
Joe: What does that have to do with this?
Emily: well, think about it.. He told you to put it on, but when you didn't- and the batter hit your head with the bat-- Didn't he come and help you off the field?
Joe: yes..
Emily: ..And didn't he tell you that he loved you, and was trying to help you when he said for you to put it on?
Joe: ..Yes..
Emily: ..And didn't he Look after you and teach you things, even when you fell off the bike when you had the training wheels removed? ...or when you accidentally hurt yourself chopping wood, after he told you to try it his way?
Joe: yes.. ::Thinking::
Emily: Now, G-d is like Your father.. not in a literal way.. but in a protective "unseen" way. His book, the Bible-- is His way of telling us things that protect us from harm. It's our choice to listen, or get hurt... but when we do, He takes care of us. He doesn't abandon us..
Joe: Ok..?
Emily: And think about this.. We're in prison-- HaSatan has us as prisoners. G-d loved us enough that he sent His son to take our penalties, and set us free... but we have a choice.. we accept the payment or stay where we are.. We have that choice. It's like the story someone told once in Grade school about the two friends in China.. the one had a family member who was dying, and his friend offered to stay in prison for a time, to ensure his friend would come back..
Joe: ::nods:: I remember that..
Emily: well, Y'shua did more than that for us...





ok, In that hypothetical situation- - was Emily "preaching" ---?
Or, was she rather compelling a friend to come to the marriage supper?

Selah.


P.s. I wrote all that myself :P:

[SeaDreamer]

1ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

1ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Doesn't Paul also give the reason for this in the above scriptures?

I'm not suggesting, I'm asking. It seems pretty clear to me that women are not to have authority over men and the reason why?

[antsinmypants]

Try reading all the scriptures that talk about women and how they should and shouldn't act.. and you get better understanding of what Paul is really saying.

:thumb

Oh, and notice "Not to...USURP AUTHORITY.. over a man"..

What's that mean?



Main Entry: usurp
Pronunciation: yu-'s&rp also -'z&rp
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French usurper, from Latin usurpare to take possession of without legal claim, from usually (ablative of usus use) + rapere to seize -- more at RAPID
Date: 14th century
transitive senses
1 a : to seize and hold (as office, place, or powers) in possession by force or without right <usurp a throne> b : to take or make use of without right <usurped the rights to her life story>
2 : to take the place of by or as if by force : SUPPLANT <must not let stock responses based on inherited prejudice usurp careful judgment>
intransitive senses : to seize or exercise authority or possession wrongfully


Entry Word: usurp
Function: verb
Text: 1
Synonyms ARROGATE 1, accroach, appropriate, assume, commandeer, preempt
Antonyms abdicate
2
Synonyms SUPPLANT 1, cut out, displace


www.m-w.com

[Singlesis]

I am the teacher of above-mentioned Singles' class, and I am a woman. None of the men or couples would do it, and I was asked. Teaching is my gift and there is sound solid bible teaching going on (thank-you very much). :thumb
I've never thought women should be pastors, but I never really thought about there being a problem with teaching - I was always taught it was wrong "from the pulpit", or to be "senior pastor", and everything was okay.

But after coming to this board and reading all these posts, it doesn't seem to be exactly that way. Good questions as to where the line(s) should be drawn.
I appreciate the input.

We don't do gossiping and fixing up, etc. in our class. But I realize that is often a problem or issue in many Singles' ministries - especially in larger churches.

[antsinmypants]

Originally posted by Singlesis
I am the teacher of above-mentioned Singles' class, and I am a woman. None of the men or couples would do it, and I was asked. Teaching is my gift and there is sound solid bible teaching going on (thank-you very much). :thumb

Oh, I wasn't saying that there wasn't sound teaching.. but I remember how it is in the singles class....

And I didn't get on well because theywere going through the same thing currently... and it was more like "self help".. and asking advice of peers...

I, personally, identify better with someone who's been there, done that and can give good advice on situations... kinda like foster parents.

It might be a good class, but I think there needs to be a male balance there.. for the guy's sake-- so he can ask questions that wouldn't be wrong to ask a woman teacher..

..get where i'm going?

[KrispyKritter]

I'm glad this thread is staying civil... no reason to get our noses bent... :D:

Giving a testimony to the church is not the same as having authority over someone. You're merely relating what God has done in your life. That is excluded from this.

Running a marketing dept (which seems odd to me that that's actually something a church has... probably cuz we house church) is a bit different, and I believe would not fall under this either. You're talking about the administrative side of things. It's more like a job, and hardly would be classified by me as a "ministry". (A lot things get called a "ministry" in church... like the "sound board" minitry... um, folks, it's a job or a service... not a ministry. Thats Christian-ese. Thats our little Christian code language coming into play.)

Anyway... I wouldn't have a problem w/a woman in that position because it's not ministry, and it's not teaching. One of the Gifts of the Spirit is Administration... that could be your gift.

Missionaries... good one. My personal opinion is much like Ants. Missionaries I know who are women go to the mission field and help build churches, and work with mission organizations to train men to pastor churches that have been planted. 9 times out of 10 that's who that works. A missionary sharing the gospel to another person is not the same as having authority in the church.

Personally I believe a lot women are missionaries on their own because most of us MEN are disobedient to God's calling.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by Singlesis
I am the teacher of above-mentioned Singles' class, and I am a woman. None of the men or couples would do it, and I was asked. Teaching is my gift and there is sound solid bible teaching going on (thank-you very much). :thumb
I've never thought women should be pastors, but I never really thought about there being a problem with teaching - I was always taught it was wrong "from the pulpit", or to be "senior pastor", and everything was okay.

But after coming to this board and reading all these posts, it doesn't seem to be exactly that way. Good questions as to where the line(s) should be drawn.
I appreciate the input.

We don't do gossiping and fixing up, etc. in our class. But I realize that is often a problem or issue in many Singles' ministries - especially in larger churches.

Can I say (without getting hit over the head??) that being gifted in teaching, and being called to teach a particular class, are two different thing? You're gifted in teaching. Have you been called to teach that class? Well... if there are adult men in the class, then I have to say no IMHO because it is contradictory to what Paul said.

Please don't be offended... I'm just conversing w/ya.

[Singlesis]

Originally posted by antsinmypants
Oh, I wasn't saying that there wasn't sound teaching.. but I remember how it is in the singles class....

And I didn't get on well because theywere going through the same thing currently... and it was more like "self help".. and asking advice of peers...

I, personally, identify better with someone who's been there, done that and can give good advice on situations... kinda like foster parents.

It might be a good class, but I think there needs to be a male balance there.. for the guy's sake-- so he can ask questions that wouldn't be wrong to ask a woman teacher..

..get where i'm going?

Yes, I do. And I agree. The men in our class do look to each other, etc. But alot of them didn't like the couple-teaching scenario's thinking they couldn't relate. Like, the older couple has been married 30 years, they have no concept about abstinence in the 90's, or being divorced 3-4 times, or single parenting, etc. That's why they wanted a single teacher. But I agree, it would be nice to have male/female co-teachers maybe.

But, in teaching a lesson to the whole class, am I in violation of scripture?

[antsinmypants]

SingleSis, I'll have to meditate on my answer.

It'd just be good to have someone who's a couple that's been married 10 years.. let alone 20.. because they could relate-- as they went thru the sexual revolution etc..

but i"ll think and pray about my answer to that

[Singlesis]

I'm not offended by any of these replies - that's why I am asking. I want your opinions. And I personally am not opposed to a couple teaching - but nobody offered when we tried starting the class two years ago. I had done the "single sisters" thing (all single women), so they asked me if I would teach this one.

I guess it's that teaching vs. preaching vs. authority thing, and single women not being able to "ask their husbands at home" debate. Just wondering if you guys feel my teaching the class was in violation of scripture.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by Singlesis
I'm not offended by any of these replies - that's why I am asking. I want your opinions. And I personally am not opposed to a couple teaching - but nobody offered when we tried starting the class two years ago. I had done the "single sisters" thing (all single women), so they asked me if I would teach this one.

I guess it's that teaching vs. preaching vs. authority thing, and single women not being able to "ask their husbands at home" debate. Just wondering if you guys feel my teaching the class was in violation of scripture.

ok... well, what is authority?

1 a (1) : a citation (as from a book or file) used in defense or support (2) : the source from which the citation is drawn b (1) : a conclusive statement or set of statements (as an official decision of a court) (2) : a decision taken as a precedent (3) : TESTIMONY c : an individual cited or appealed to as an expert
2 a : power to influence or command thought, opinion, or behavior b : freedom granted by one in authority : RIGHT
3 a : persons in command; specifically : GOVERNMENT b : a governmental agency or corporation to administer a revenue-producing public enterprise

When someone teaches a class do they not have the power to influence or command thought, opinion, or behavior? I would say yes, and I would say this is exactly the type of authority that Paul is referring to.

[kgreen20]

Uhh--does a woman have any place in the church, except to sit still and shut up? If that's the case, maybe we women should stay home and worship God on our own, and let the men do the public worshipping. There's no place in the church for a woman. We're clearly a lowly, inferior gender.



Kathy G.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by kgreen20
Uhh--does a woman have any place in the church, except to sit still and shut up? If that's the case, maybe we women should stay home and worship God on our own, and let the men do the public worshipping. There's no place in the church for a woman. We're clearly a lowly, inferior gender.



Kathy G.

Wow... nice attitude.

Clearly you havent read this entire thread... for if you had, you would see there is a lot that women contribute to church life. And clearly you dont understand scripture on this issue.

Excuse me for being forward, but you will continue to misunderstand until you have a change in attitude.

[Joshua]

I am one of those with the disenting view on this subject.

I noted that several times in the bible where it speaks of women being subservient to their husbands, it also speaks of slaves obeying their masters.

This was confusing for me when I read it and what I do when confused with interpretation is ask myself, " what would Jesus do , or want me to do", or want people to do.

This is my "litmus" test to resolve confusion on my part. Not that I would pretend to know the mind of Jesus, but I ask the Holy Spirit to assist me in taking the proper course.

I no more believe that God intended to set women up as second class citizens than I believe God intended slavery to continue as a legitimate practice in our world today.

He said their would be neither Greek or Jew, neither slave nor free, neither Male nor Female.

We are all equal in the eyes of God

I think people on both sides of the argument are choosing the one they want to believe as opposed to listening to their hearts.

[joint heir]

Krispy....

your post prompted a question in me...

Where does authority come from?

is it really from the position (as in sunday school teacher)....is that really where the power to influence comes from....or does the power of influence come from the Lord....

the most dynamic christians....the ones who convince and change minds are dynamic wherever they go....they carry that power with them....

now can a woman have this power of influence? will the Holy Spirit use her in this way?

Does authority come from the title one holds or the place one is standing (ie pulpit instead of kitchen)...so that people themselves can move in and out of authority....or does authority come from the Lord and truth spoken?

Is biblical authority a tone of voice? or a title or a place?

or is it the power of the Holy Spirit working in you to change minds and convince hearts.....?

[KrispyKritter]

I appreciate your non-combative approach! It's refreshing...

Originally posted by Joshua
I am one of those with the disenting view on this subject.

I noted that several times in the bible where it speaks of women being subservient to their husbands, it also speaks of slaves obeying their masters.

Just because those examples seem to be grouped together, the point that Paul was making is that we should submit one to another. He certainly was not equating wives w/slaves, and it's a stretch to make that connection.

Originally posted by Joshua
This was confusing for me when I read it and what I do when confused with interpretation is ask myself, " what would Jesus do , or want me to do", or want people to do.

This is my "litmus" test to resolve confusion on my part. Not that I would pretend to know the mind of Jesus, but I ask the Holy Spirit to assist me in taking the proper course.

The question also needs to be asked "What would Jesus or the Holy Spirit not do?" And the answer is: They would not contradict the Word of God. Your ways and thoughts are not as God's, which you admit, so there are times when you may not understand why God made things the way He did... you just have to accept it in faith. What you're promoting is "fuzzy theology".

Originally posted by Joshua
I no more believe that God intended to set women up as second class citizens than I believe God intended slavery to continue as a legitimate practice in our world today.

Now you're equating wives w/being 2nd class citizens... my wife may take exception to that. You're also insinuating that Paul required women to be 2nd class citizens. His commands to the church (and the women thereof) were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Paul was not condoning slavery w/his comments... he was instructing slaves on how to be witnesses for Christ. You're way off on your logic and reasoning on this one.

Originally posted by Joshua
He said their would be neither Greek or Jew, neither slave nor free, neither Male nor Female.

This is grossly out of context... He was answering a question about a woman who was married several times due to being widowed, and who would her husband be in heaven. This has nothing to do w/ us here on earth. You ought not to twist scripture to make a point.

Originally posted by Joshua
We are all equal in the eyes of God

I agree... but it does not negate the Word of God as it pertains to what we're discussing here.

Originally posted by Joshua
I think people on both sides of the argument are choosing the one they want to believe as opposed to listening to their hearts.

Oh man... you are so far off on this one... I refuse to listen to my heart because my heart is wicked and deceitful! I can only listen to the Word of God. I suggest you try it...

I'm not mocking you! Seriously! You are simply wrong.

[Singlesis]

I gotta go, but look forward to reading the rest of these posts tomorrow. Please, let's keep it civil. These threads always tend to get "touchy", but I am seriously considering my position, and if whether God would have me step down. Thanks for praying with me about this, by the way. :D:

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by joint heir
Krispy....

your post prompted a question in me...

Where does authority come from?

is it really from the position (as in sunday school teacher)....is that really where the power to influence comes from....or does the power of influence come from the Lord....

the most dynamic christians....the ones who convince and change minds are dynamic wherever they go....they carry that power with them....

now can a woman have this power of influence? will the Holy Spirit use her in this way?

Does authority come from the title one holds or the place one is standing (ie pulpit instead of kitchen)...so that people themselves can move in and out of authority....or does authority come from the Lord and truth spoken?

Is biblical authority a tone of voice? or a title or a place?

or is it the power of the Holy Spirit working in you to change minds and convince hearts.....?

Good question... we've lost the ability in most churches to let the Spirit elect our leaders. Today we candidate seminary graduates, or other pastors... and they are judged on skill, vocabulary, shortness of sermon... etc. Many committees have squelched the Spirit!

I personally (as you know) think the Institutional Churches methods of leadership are completely wrong. All I can tell you is how house churches do it... and that is this: Leaders will naturally rise to the top. A woman may come into a group w/leadership giftings, and if so, she will end up fulfilling that gift with a scriptural role... i.e. teaching the other women, children, or whatever.

But it's all done by the direction of the Spirit... not a committee.

We'v never had a problem. I've never had a woman come and complain that she wasn't leading men. I get leary of ANYONE who complains that they arent in leadership. Thats a red flag to me no matter who that is.

[cindyw]

Originally posted by joint heir
Krispy....

your post prompted a question in me...



Aha!! I KNEW you couldn't stay out of here Shelly!!:laugh

[joint heir]

two threads on one page was too much for me to bear....

:laugh but I don't consider myself in it.....
it was just an interesting thought as I pondered Krispy's post...I'll discuss with anyone...but I choose not to be drawn into a debate....:):



Krispy....yes I agree with you....anyone desirous of leadership does not have the gift of leadership....

the best comment I have heard on the subject is....you know you are gifted with leadership if you look behind you and someone is following....

and it is very natural that women will follow women and men will follow men since their interests are similar...and when one is in the Spirit they naturally have authority....

but I would have to say that this natural(as opposed to forced) Holy Spirit led process happens all the time across gender lines and no one is wiser....

you and I have both taught in authority to each other....it had nothing to do with tone of voice ....it was just the Holy Spirit using both of us to teach the other something....we were each in authority because we were speaking truth....nothing more complicated to it....

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by joint heir
two threads on one page was too much for me to bear....

:laugh but I don't consider myself in it.....
it was just an interesting thought as I pondered Krispy's post...I'll discuss with anyone...but I choose not to be drawn into a debate....:):



Krispy....yes I agree with you....anyone desirous of leadership does not have the gift of leadership....

the best comment I have heard on the subject is....you know you are gifted with leadership if you look behind you and someone is following....

and it is very natural that women will follow women and men will follow men since their interests are similar...and when one is in the Spirit they naturally have authority....

but I would have to say that this natural(as opposed to forced) Holy Spirit led process happens all the time across gender lines and no one is wiser....

you and I have both taught in authority to each other....it had nothing to do with tone of voice ....it was just the Holy Spirit using both of us to teach the other something....we were each in authority because we were speaking truth....nothing more complicated to it....

It's foolish to think that men can not learn from women, and I dont think anyone is saying that. I learn from my wife everyday, and she has a perspective on things that I need to listen to and learn from.

The difference, Shelley, is that Paul is discussing church structure/ We dont attend church together, therefore we are not obligated to be in a leadership/follower role.

Just like you're not my wife, therefore you need not submit to me.

... tho it would be nice if you would! :laugh

[blitzkreig]

I miss Matthew (Pilgrimian)... about now he would be bringing up the matter about head coverings :hat

:rofl

[joint heir]

if one can learn and teach in authority with one another....which would include influence....of course all based on the Holy Spirit(there is really no other type of teaching that we are supposed to be doing as we have already agreed)

then your definition of authority that you posted earlier is really not what Paul is referring to when he says that woman should not teach in authority.....

I'll repost the definition so everyone knows what we are talking about:

1 a (1) : a citation (as from a book or file) used in defense or support (2) : the source from which the citation is drawn b (1) : a conclusive statement or set of statements (as an official decision of a court) (2) : a decision taken as a precedent (3) : TESTIMONY c : an individual cited or appealed to as an expert
2 a : power to influence or command thought, opinion, or behavior b : freedom granted by one in authority : RIGHT
3 a : persons in command; specifically : GOVERNMENT b : a governmental agency or corporation to administer a revenue-producing public enterprise

When someone teaches a class do they not have the power to influence or command thought, opinion, or behavior? I would say yes, and I would say this is exactly the type of authority that Paul is referring to.


do you feel that Paul was then referring to definition 3? or some other definition of authority?....one that is not imparted by the Spirit but instead has to do maleness?



Just like you're not my wife, therefore you need not submit to me.

... tho it would be nice if you would!
...we are supposed to submit to each other....Eph 5:21:):
so I will submit to you...no problem.....it would be a joy to be able to spend time with you face to face so we could do some of that ....I can't wait to see all my brothers and sisters here on the board...we can have a family submittingfest:D:

[Ponderin]

Originally posted by blitzkreig
I miss Matthew (Pilgrimian)... about now he would be bringing up the matter about head coverings :hat

:rofl


:fish

[KrispyKritter]

We could be talking about sending the band KISS on the first manned space shuttle to Mars... and he would somehow bring up head coverings!

[antsinmypants]

Originally posted by blitzkreig
I miss Matthew (Pilgrimian)... about now he would be bringing up the matter about head coverings :hat

:rofl

I almost did.. :P: but I decided not yet :P:

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by joint heir
if one can learn and teach in authority with one another....which would include influence....of course all based on the Holy Spirit(there is really no other type of teaching that we are supposed to be doing as we have already agreed)

then your definition of authority that you posted earlier is really not what Paul is referring to when he says that woman should not teach in authority.....

I'll repost the definition so everyone knows what we are talking about:




do you feel that Paul was then referring to definition 3? or some other definition of authority?....one that is not imparted by the Spirit but instead has to do maleness?




...we are supposed to submit to each other....Eph 5:21:):
so I will submit to you...no problem.....it would be a joy to be able to spend time with you face to face so we could do some of that ....I can't wait to see all my brothers and sisters here on the board...we can have a family submittingfest:D:

Me thinks you're over spiritualizing...

I can tell cuz you have me all confused now!

[joint heir]

:D:

the definition of authority that you posted matches what men and women do everyday...(teach each other in authority)

...but you believe that Paul says that women can not teach men in authority....so there has to be a disconnect in the definition of authority

what kind of authority can't women have?

a positional authority like defintion 3...command?
or some other defintion of authority not included in the dictionary?

[antsinmypants]

I think we lost sight of the main word that comes in the verse before "authority".

It's called "Usurp".


G831
authenteo

1) one who with his own hands kills another or himself

2) one who acts on his own authority, autocratic

3) an absolute master

4) to govern, exercise dominion over one

Translation Count — Total: 1: usurp authority over


Main Entry: usurp
Pronunciation: yu-'s&rp also -'z&rp
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French usurper, from Latin usurpare to take possession of without legal claim, from usually (ablative of usus use) + rapere to seize -- more at RAPID
Date: 14th century
transitive senses
1 a : to seize and hold (as office, place, or powers) in possession by force or without right <usurp a throne> b : to take or make use of without right <usurped the rights to her life story>
2 : to take the place of by or as if by force : SUPPLANT <must not let stock responses based on inherited prejudice usurp careful judgment>
intransitive senses : to seize or exercise authority or possession wrongfully


Main Entry: sup·plant
Pronunciation: s&-'plant
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French supplanter, from Latin supplantare to overthrow by tripping up, from sub- + planta sole of the foot -- more at PLACE
Date: 14th century
1 : to supersede (another) especially by force or treachery
2 a (1) obsolete : UPROOT (2) : to eradicate and supply a substitute for <efforts to supplant the vernacular> b : to take the place of and serve as a substitute for especially by reason of superior excellence or power
synonym see REPLACE


Related Word crowd (out), force (out); bounce, cast (out), eject, expel, oust
Idioms give the bum's rush, give the old heave-ho, step into the shoes of
Synonyms REPLACE 3, outplace, supersede


:wave :angel

[Hyssop]

Originally posted by blitzkreig
I miss Matthew (Pilgrimian)... about now he would be bringing up the matter about head coverings :hat

:rofl

:spit

[joint heir]

exactly ants....

authenteo is what is used in 1 Timothy....and it is not what anyone should be doing male or female....


1 Timothy 2
12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.


1 Timothy 2
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.


this is much different from the authority expressed in all other verses, which is excousia.....the type of authority Jesus had when he taught

there is no verse restricting women from have excousia authority...which is what Jesus taught in and what we do when we are teaching in the Spirit regardless of our location or tone of voice....

[Joshua]

Krispy: When I speak of doing what's in my heart, I am refering to the part occupied by the Holy Spirit who is usually in full control over any evil in my heart when I am seeking guidence.

..."do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?"
1 Cor 6:19

I understand my views are simple, I am not as well versed as others here. I do not quote scripture very well, but I feel that
Spirit in me, guiding me and I know when I'm following him and I know when I'm ignoring him because I'm a sinner.

I can't get past the part " there will be neither male or female"
we are all equal in God's eyes. I'm sure there are many women
on this site who could teach, preach, or minister to me and to my benefit. I will get to heaven by faith alone and will not be less
there because I allowed my manhood to be usurped by a woman.

Why do you say those people who reference parts of the bible that appear to hold women equal are just wishful thinkers, but those who use other biblical references that appear to subjigate women are the literal truth.

[antsinmypants]

Originally posted by Joshua
I can't get past the part " there will be neither male or female"
we are all equal in God's eyes. I'm sure there are many women
on this site who could teach, preach, or minister to me and to my benefit. I will get to heaven by faith alone and will not be less
there because I allowed my manhood to be usurped by a woman.

Though equal spiritually (I.e. not second class), that doesn't mean we're Equal and "anything you can do I can do better"..

We each have different roles to fill, and that is why G-d had Rav Sha'ul say what he did and always reiterate why, and what the roles are.

Apparently Timothy and Titus's congregations and Corinth had some major Feminist related problems, according to the writings and history.

Same thing going on now, was then.

Usurping isn't a good thing.

Remember Miriam, Martha's sister, she was a disciple of the L-rd, she Sat at his feet, she told the men that Y'shua was risen..
but she had no authority over them.

:wave

[antsinmypants]

Originally posted by joint heir
this is much different from the authority expressed in all other verses, which is excousia.....the type of authority Jesus had when he taught

there is no verse restricting women from have excousia authority...which is what Jesus taught in and what we do when we are teaching in the Spirit regardless of our location or tone of voice....

I am in agreement, but there is a way to do it that is right, and a way that is wrong.

Joyce Meyers for instance, is in the authenteo category.

The women that are in my congregation that contribute to our Midrashes and sometimes to our services, are in the excousia category.

Submission, with their husband at their side, everything is approved by him and the elders.. and she isn't "Preaching" but rather teaching Hebrew or what things mean (Exgesis?) And sometimes reading from the scriptures.

She's also humble, "elder" and dressed modestly.

Our role isn't the same as Jochanan the Immerser (John, the cousin of Y'shua) or Peter or Sha'ul (Paul) per se, but that of people like Dorcas, Priscilla, Lydia... Miriam...Anna.. etc..

[joint heir]

I agree also....there is a right way and a wrong way....I think all teachers...male and female can step over the line and use their own words and not the Spirit's....

the Spirit can offend though....especially someone who is guarding their sin and not willing to let go....

it is not cut and dry.....loud voice...soft voice....powerful words...and meek ones can all be used....but it is the attitude of service that should show through....

an attitude of wanting to teach because you want to help others and don't want them to make the same mistakes vs wanting to show off

[antsinmypants]

Originally posted by joint heir
an attitude of wanting to teach because you want to help others and don't want them to make the same mistakes vs wanting to show off

I think you just hit on something :):

[maryr_32]

I've been concerned about this issue for quite a while. Our church put in a female pastor last year. The service i attend has a male pastor (the associate pastor).....and to be honest, I've heard the woman preach, and she's much better. But, I don't think women should have the authority that she does as senior pastor. But she rarely does our service....I just wish the associate could get some ideas from her!!!

[sandy111]

a woman may be able to preach better than a man,
but the ends does'nt justify the means.
gotta go by what God said, and leave it to Him as to the whys.

[spirit]

I was wondering if someone could relate to this.

I have been attending this new church for a little over 2 months and just last week, I noticed the Pastor called his wife from the pulpit and called her, "Pastora." I go to a spanish-speaking church. In spanish, "Pastor" is "Pastor". And if it's a female "Pastor", it's "Pastora".

Anyways, he called her up to the pulpit. She went up and welcomed visitors to the church. She quickly stepped. She was and is very humble and modest and under her husband's authority. At least, I have noticed for the little time I have been attending this church?

I was wondering if this was scriptural?

Maybe the Pastor calls her "Pastora" because she's his wife, or because she serves in the ministry?

I dunno. I have talked with her and she is so humble and self-controlled. I don't see her as trying to be equal in authority to her husband, the Pastor.

But I do wonder why he calls her. "Pastor"....which in spanish, it's translated, "pastora."

By the way, in the spanish-speaking world, there are many, many women who call themselves, "Pastors" and are leading churches. I've never like this. From what I've read women are not be pastors in the Bible. It just seems more women, Hispanics are willing to be used by the Lord and they appoint themselves, "Pastors" over a church. It's a problem...and I've avoided any church where there is a woman pastor.

[antsinmypants]

I could see this in certain respects..

A rabbi's wife is called a Rabbitzin.. whether or not she's ordained, because she is the Rabbi's other half, and is part of the authority over the women, and can relate anything that is a concern of the women to him.

If she was teaching WITH him, and under his authority, I don't forsee a problem.

Remember that Phillip's daughters, prophesied, he knew of it, and apparently was present some of the time, but it wasn't in the assemblies ;):

:wave

[spirit]

Originally posted by antsinmypants
I could see this in certain respects..

A rabbi's wife is called a Rabbitzin.. whether or not she's ordained, because she is the Rabbi's other half, and is part of the authority over the women, and can relate anything that is a concern of the women to him.

If she was teaching WITH him, and under his authority, I don't forsee a problem.

Remember that Phillip's daughters, prophesied, he knew of it, and apparently was present some of the time, but it wasn't in the assemblies ;):

:wave

Thanks so much antsinmypants for responding. What a blessing!

I think I understand. The part you mentioned where the woman can relate anything that is a concern of the women to him, sounds about right. In my short time of being a Christian and very short time of being in this church, that's exactly how I have seen it. I have been able to speak with her...in fact, even felt more comfortable doing so because she is a woman.

Thanks for explaining this to me.

[joint heir]

ants.....we are in agreement that there are not restrictions for women to teach in authority(excousia)...while no one should teach in an authentein authority form....

what verse makes you believe that women can teach in excousia form but that they must be teaching with their husband?

could you explain your position quickly for me? thanks:)

[Singlesis]

Originally posted by joint heir
ants.....we are in agreement that there are not restrictions for women to teach in authority(excousia)...while no one should teach in an authentein authority form....

what verse makes you believe that women can teach in excousia form but that they must be teaching with their husband?

could you explain your position quickly for me? thanks:)

A-hem.... and what about those "teachers" who don't have a husband to teach with? What should we do?

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by Singlesis
A-hem.... and what about those "teachers" who don't have a husband to teach with? What should we do?

Short answer... not teach men. :wave

[Singlesis]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Short answer... not teach men. :wave

Okay, so the pastor asked me to take the class (co-ed singles). I asked and asked for others to help, but nobody would. I took 6 months off and another woman had to step in, although there are probably 4-5 men in our group. I came back, and they've asked me again. I said I would do it for the month of January, but not commit to anything else yet. So, citing my reasons for stepping down would ulimately be saying the pastor was wrong for asking me start with, wouldn't it?
:doh

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by Singlesis
So, citing my reasons for stepping down would ulimately be saying the pastor was wrong for asking me start with, wouldn't it?
:doh

And your point is? Your pastor is capable of being wrong... and even if you dont convince him of that, he should at least respect your convictions concerning this. If he doesnt, then you have a whole nuther issue.

If you dont wish to confront him (which I personally think you should anyway... but thats your decision) then finish out your commitment, and then dont renew it.

[Brad MetalMan]

Originally posted by galpster1
What about female missionaries in general can they only teach women the scriptures?

Note: I am not trying to be facious I am very curious what the scriptures say about the above. I am facing a situaation where I might be called on to lead our marketing department.

My pastor believes that women can hold these type of roles as long as she is still under the aurthority of the Pastor therefore she can lead bible studies, ministry's etc

I don't know if anyone already answered this, but I don't think a female should serve alone of the field just for safety reasons. She should have a husband with her, or be serving under other males.

[joint heir]

singlesis...if the Lord is calling you to be there....then answer that call....

some will tell you that the Lord can't possibly call you to do that...but ants and I proved that they are wrong...there is no biblical restriction for women to teach in excousia authority....this is the healthy biblical authority that Jesus taught in....

I am not sure why she believes that you have to have a husband ...that is why I asked her....I know of no scriptural foundation for that....but I am sure she will answer when she has time....

only you can decide what the Spirit is calling you to do....just because no one else wants to do it means that you are called ...but that does not mean you are not called either.....just pray about it....you do not need others to tell you what to do....

You will be the one answering for it if you miss a call or spend your time in the wrong ministry.....and Krispy said or JH said...will not be sufficient excuse.....

I will pray that the Holy Spirit makes his will clear to you....


anyone that wants some more resouces...you can go here:

http://www.cbeinternational.com

there are many articles proving the validity of women in every type of ministry:):

[Hyssop]

Originally posted by joint heir
singlesis...if the Lord is calling you to be there....then answer that call....

You will be the one answering for it if you miss a call or spend your time in the wrong ministry.....and Krispy said or JH said...will not be sufficient excuse.....



:freaked :faint (I was going to write in a reply, but I feel these more clearly reflect my reaction to Jointheirs post.)

Singlesis, I think that the Holy Spirit has already began convicting you of this matter. I do trust that you will search the scriptures and come to the final descision with His leading. :):

Blessings, Hyssop

[joint heir]

Oh now Hyssop.....you know there is really no need to fall down and worship at my feet....:D:

;):

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by Brad MetalMan
I don't know if anyone already answered this, but I don't think a female should serve alone of the field just for safety reasons. She should have a husband with her, or be serving under other males.

Amen... and I believe you'll find that most are. Most single female missionaries are under the authority of a mission organization or church. There are not too many renegade missionaries out there.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by joint heir
singlesis...if the Lord is calling you to be there....then answer that call....

some will tell you that the Lord can't possibly call you to do that...but ants and I proved that they are wrong...there is no biblical restriction for women to teach in excousia authority....this is the healthy biblical authority that Jesus taught in....

Oh... so the Holy Spirit has contradicted the very words that He inspired Paul to write? Thats interesting. You're treading on thin ice here...

I respectfully disagree with this. The words that Paul wrote (thru the inspiration of God Himself) are very clear. I know I tend to see things in black and white... but in this instance... it's painfully clear what Paul says. You cant rationalize it away.

[Hyssop]

Originally posted by joint heir
Oh now Hyssop.....you know there is really no need to fall down and worship at my feet....:D:


:spit .... :tape

[joint heir]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Oh... so the Holy Spirit has contradicted the very words that He inspired Paul to write? Thats interesting. You're treading on thin ice here...

did you even read mine and antsy's posts?....you are free to comment as to why we are wrong you know....

the Holy Spirit would never ever encourage someone to teach in an authentein form...which is exactly what he inspired Paul to write....

but he would encourage someone to teach in an excousia form.....which is what biblical authority is....this is how Jesus taught...women are not restricted from having this type of authority

Now single sis has the responsibility to determine if the Holy Spirit is calling her to teach (excousia style)....and she is perfectly capable of making that determination....

[antsinmypants]

Originally posted by joint heir
what verse makes you believe that women can teach in excousia form but that they must be teaching with their husband?

could you explain your position quickly for me? thanks:)

well we find Anna, who was a virgin prophetess who came up to Miriam and Yosef and the baby Y'shua.. she spoke around the same time that Shimeon came up and prophesied over Y'shua as well..

Both of them dedicated to Temple service.


As for the husband wife/ father/daughter

We have Priscilla and Aquila teaching Apollos together.. Priscilla is listed first, Aquila, her husband is listed second.. they EXPOUNDED the scriptures. -- that would be akin to escousia.

Then you have Phillip and his virgin daughters..

:wave

[joint heir]

ahh so it is based on examples in the Bible....
not a specific verse of instruction....:):interesting

I agree that working as a familial or marriage team is ideal(if possible)....I think that it can only be a blessing to get to serve the Lord together like that....

but are you convinced that every couple will have the same or complimentary ministry gifts?....so that they can work together?

and what of those with unsaved spouses etc....

I see the possibility of serving together as a blessing...but not a neccessity...because we do not have any real data regarding how ministry was done after the pentacost....

Phoebe was traveling alone....not married? or on a different ministry path than her husband? we don't know...

we only have one example of a couple...(priscilla / aquilla)...

and you also mentioned Anna...

[antsinmypants]

Originally posted by joint heir
ahh so it is based on examples in the Bible....
not a specific verse of instruction....:):interesting
...and you also mentioned Anna...

Anna worked in the Temple. She was widowed and was in the Women's court.

Far cry from talking to men and teaching them.

Example is usually the way things were... Take heed to the admonishment about how husbands and wives are not independent of each other, and how they are to work closely together.

There are things that women can do independently, but it isn't related to teaching men..

Lydia worked with women. . . and it's not said whether or not she was a wife or divorced or widowed or a virgin.

Dorcas, same story..

Same for the deaconess (not pheobe, but the name escapes me at the moment)..

Women didn't work with a man unless he was her husband, and even then it was more administrative.. and for his being able to relate to/teach/preach with women in the crowd...

[joint heir]

true....I wasn't sure what you were trying to point out with her....


so you believe that either a couple will have separate ministries...women for women and men for men....or that it might be a joint ministry which would allow women to teach men in excousia form...
Do I understand your position?

but you are basing this all off of Priscilla and Aquilla? and Phillip and his daughters?

I feel like I am missing something....and I am sure it is my fault :):

[antsinmypants]

You understand my position, but not the whole reason for what I say.

I base it off of the entire bible, women's roles and what the bible says about women's roles. From Genesis to Revelation.

These were the only examples I could think of on the fly, while taking Methylprednizone and ZPac. :P: my how sinus troubles screw with one's head. :P:

[KrispyKritter]

Joint Heir... dont get your nose out of joint... excuse the pun! :D:

All I am saying is that Paul clearly forbid women to teach men in the church. What Singlesis is describing would fall under this catagory.

It's that simple to me... if you disagree it doesnt rock my world too much. :thumb

[joint heir]

ants maybe in a while we could have a discussion about head.....I am interested in your point of view.....right now there are just too many threads on the subject....


yeah I am on thin ice if you are right.,.....but then that would put you on the ice if I am.

;): :P:

[antsinmypants]

Originally posted by joint heir
ants maybe in a while we could have a discussion about head.....

Headship?
Head-coverings?


I"m still working on 1 corinthians 11, and while working on it I realised you can't just pick this one scripture, but must seek out all concerning women and their roles and how she should be.

I'm still seeking out all that I can and trying to find time to do everything it is I do in one day.

I honestly think I do two days of work in one day and just pretend to sleep :heh

I'd be glad to once I have my stuff all in one place. :wave

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by joint heir
yeah I am on thin ice if you are right.,.....but then that would put you on the ice if I am.

;): :P:

Maybe so... but then again, I dont think so.

Just be careful that y'all dont start straining at knats. The Pharisees did that... they were nit picking the Law to death, and Jesus had some pretty harsh words to say about it.

I've said what I had to say...Paul's words seem pretty clear, IMHO. On that note, I'm just gonna leave it at that.