Second Chance? Not So Sure

[MailmanGuy]

After the “church”is removed (raptured)...I think God’s focus, goes back on Israel. Meaning, I don’t think those that are left behind ( with the exception of certain Israelites) will have a second chance for salvation as many of us believe.

I say this based on ...

1) 4,000 years go by with God’s attention only on His chosen nation & people, Israel. They get the “Laws” and the Old Covenant. They’re told what to do, and how to make atonements. Egyptians, Philistines, Assyrians....and everyone else, get nothing. (Amo 3:2 Of all nations on earth, you are the only one I have chosen...) Also, at the end of 4,000 yrs, Daniel’s 69 weeks of years stop.

2)Jesus comes down to us (thank you Lord) and dies, only to resurrect three days later. Now comes the “Church Age”. For the first time Gentiles are includes in a Covenant (known as the New Covenant) and we’re told to preach to the world, and then the end will come (Mat 24:14)

3) Approx. 2,000 years later when the “time of the Gentiles is fulfilled” (Luk 21:24) And the “church” is removed, ( 1Co 15:52 ) God’s focus is back on Israel, and Daniel’s 70th week of years, starts up. (Tribulation) (Dan 9:27)

From that point on God selects his 144,000 (Israelites) to preach, and some of His chosen (Israelites again) to hide in the mountains for protection, and of course the two prophets. There is no mention of other nations, or people from those nations, that are spared from God’s coming wrath.

I don’t see how all the “Left Behind Letters” here on this site will help those left behind. Another words...no second chance???? Remember that the Holy Spirit is gone and that there is a "great falling away with strong delusions" (2Th 2:11)

Thoughts?:confused

[Christine]

I disagree. :):

Can you answer these questions based on that interpretation?

1. Can people repent during the Tribulation?
2. Who are the Tribulation Saints (numbers that no man can count, from all nations)?
3. What is the purpose of the two witnesses?
4. Is there a point of no return?
5. Who will populate the Millennium?

Here is my take on it:

http://www.raptureready.com/rr-second-chance.html

[blitzkreig]

Originally posted by MailmanGuy
Thoughts?:confused I tend to agree. There may be many many exceptions I am sure... the Bible outlines a few notable ones in the Old Testament and I think that may well be the pattern.

God's Blessings on the Nations will be "THROUGH" Israel as they were before in the Old Testament.

The prophecies of these end times clearly deal with Israel... less clearly with the world.

The time of the dealing with man by "Grace" alone and the time of the Gentiles will be fulfilled.

[blitzkreig]

Originally posted by Christine
I disagree. :): I am talking about "focus" Christine. Not to the exclusion of anyone... but focus.

God will once again focus on the Jews and Israel.


1. Can people repent during the Tribulation?
2. Who are the Tribulation Saints (numbers that no man can count, from all nations)?
3. What is the purpose of the two witnesses?
4. Is there a point of no return?
5. Who will populate the Millennium?

My answers

1. yes... repent and be baptized
2. from all nations... every one of them!
3. to witness primarily to the 12 tribes primarily (144,000 is a number nicely divisible by 12 isn't it?) but it would be really hard to overlook their witness even if you weren't among the tribes.
4. no there is no point of no return,... aside from the mark that is...
5. people from all nations who will be saved by faith.. similar to the Old Testament ... there were those saved by faith.

[blitzkreig]

Originally posted by MailmanGuy
I don’t see how all the “Left Behind Letters” here on this site will help those left behind. Another words...no second chance???? Remember that the Holy Spirit is gone and that there is a "great falling away with strong delusions" (2Th 2:11) This I disagree with and would soften quite a bit,...as the door is not closed absolutely not!

Ruth, the Moabitess, and others like her, found shelter under the "wings of God" by coming to Israel in the Old Testament.

Ruth 2:12 The LORD recompense thy work, and a full reward be given thee of the LORD God of Israel, under whose wings thou art come to trust.

Jesus said to the Samaritan woman (John 4:22) Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

The program may be very similar to the Old Testament. Faith and obedience.

[old man]

Originally posted by MailmanGuy

I don’t see how all the “Left Behind Letters” here on this site will help those left behind. Another words...no second chance???? Remember that the Holy Spirit is gone and that there is a "great falling away with strong delusions" (2Th 2:11)

Thoughts?:confused

I disagree in the respect that the Holy Spirit will be gone from the earth. The Holy Spirit has been on this earth since the beginning. The thing that I think will be different is that the Holy Spirit will not be holding back Satan, but will still be here to bring new believers to the Lord.

Could be wrong, just my opinion.

[blitzkreig]

Originally posted by old man
I disagree in the respect that the Holy Spirit will be gone from the earth. The Holy Spirit has been on this earth since the beginning. I think the operation of the Comforter was quite different in the Old Testament than it is today. The Holy Spirit did not in-dwell the believer of the Old Testament. Salvation was not by the Grace of God, but by faith and obedience (ceremony or actions).

[Lonewolf7]

Originally posted by MailmanGuy
...no second chance???? Remember that the Holy Spirit is gone and that there is a "great falling away with strong delusions" (2Th 2:11)

Thoughts?:confused

Titus 3
5......He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Revelation 7
The Great Multitude in White Robes
9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
14I answered, "Sir, you know."
15And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb………

The Holy Spirit……restrains evil……but He…. is how the Lord actually does the ‘saving’ …via faith in Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2
7For the mystery of lawlessness (that hidden principle of rebellion against constituted authority) is already at work in the world, [but it is] restrained only until [1] he who restrains is taken out of the way.

Matthew 24
12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,

Isaiah 51:15
………. Who by rebuke restrains it--the Lord of hosts is His name.

This verse is talking about roaring waves…….but as you can see….if He does that for mere water…..ALL The More for evil….

Here is just one more small example.....

2 Peter 2:16
But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey–a beast without speech–who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness.

The Lord restrains evil and madness.....

[Lonewolf7]

There are some people who have no second chance though.....

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

2 Thessalonians 2
10……… They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Revelation 16:9
They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.


Hebrews 10:29
How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?


Freewill.....

[LaMontre]

In the separating of the sheep and the goats, they seem to only be spared according to thier works and not according to the atonement. And those who are spared, are seemingly suprised that they are? Could those be the ones who do not take the mark during the tribulation?

I offer one very interesting scripture.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

[Lonewolf7]

Originally posted by LaMontre

I offer one very interesting scripture.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. :confused

http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?search=mystery+christ&SearchType=AND&version=NIV&restrict=&StartRestrict=&EndRestrict=&rpp=25&language=english&searchpage=0&x=16&y=7
:confused

[MailmanGuy]

Originally posted by Christine
I disagree. :):

Can you answer these questions based on that interpretation?

1. Can people repent during the Tribulation?
2. Who are the Tribulation Saints (numbers that no man can count, from all nations)?
3. What is the purpose of the two witnesses?
4. Is there a point of no return?
5. Who will populate the Millennium?

Here is my take on it:

http://www.raptureready.com/rr-second-chance.html

I've got to go to work...I'll respond later! :D:
This Christmas mail is killing me...feel like UPS!

[Mailman Dan]

Those slackers are really not carrying thier load this year. I'm headed out too, on my NS day, again, for they 17 rotation in a row.

I'd really like to see how all those postal managers are planning to carry the mail after the rapture.


Dan~~~>just got "the 5am wake up call" again:tsk

[LaMontre]

Originally posted by Lonewolf7
:confused

http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?search=mystery+christ&SearchType=AND&version=NIV&restrict=&StartRestrict=&EndRestrict=&rpp=25&language=english&searchpage=0&x=16&y=7
:confused

Just a thought I have rolled around in my head about the tribulation. That the only way to "get out alive" is to not take the mark of the beast. (because the new birth is no longer available) But then, I keep arguing with myself about WHY one would NOT take the mark if indeed the new birth was no longer available?? (edit; Sounds like I talk to myself alot here eh? hahaha!)

Ah well, not something I would teach as a doctrine or anything, but there does seem to be some biblical evidence for it.

[blitzkreig]

2Co 6:1-2
(1) And working together with Him, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain--
(2) for He says, "AT THE ACCEPTABLE TIME I LISTENED TO YOU, AND ON THE DAY OF SALVATION I HELPED YOU." Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME," behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION"

I think Grace is way too important a message to be put off until the time of Tribulation...

[Lonewolf7]

Originally posted by LaMontre
Just a thought I have rolled around in my head about the tribulation. That the only way to "get out alive" is to not take the mark of the beast. (because the new birth is no longer available) But then, I keep arguing with myself about WHY one would NOT take the mark if indeed the new birth was no longer available?? (edit; Sounds like I talk to myself alot here eh? hahaha!)

Ah well, not something I would teach as a doctrine or anything, but there does seem to be some biblical evidence for it. I offer one very interesting scripture.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.



Would this make it make sense?????

Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

Once that full number has come in.....the mystery of God (Christ in you...new birth) would be finished.?????


Then....it is back to Israel.......and the plan would be???
Matthew 24:13
but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.


Am I making sense??? These verses JUST popped into my head.

:confused :confused

[LaMontre]

Originally posted by Lonewolf7




Would this make it make sense?????

Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part [b]until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

Once that full number has come in.....the mystery of God (Christ in you...new birth) would be finished.

Am I making sense??? This verse JUST popped into my head.

If I were confident enough that the atonement and Christs work on the cross is not eternal, that is certainly one of the scriptures that I would use in developing such a doctrine. I just haven't been able to make that leap yet.

[kgreen20]

If only Jews could be saved during the Tribulation, that means only Jews would enter the Millennium. Since the Millennium will not be populated solely by Jews, we can know that's not true!

The Church is the vehicle God uses now, to reach the world; the Jews will be the vehicle during the Tribulation. The last 7 years of the Age of Law will be in effect, as opposed to the Age of Grace we now live in. However, people will still have the option of accepting and rejecting Jesus. The vast majority, alas, will reject Him, but a "multitude too great to be numbered" will accept Him. The only thing that will take away a person's hope of salvation will be the choice to accept the Mark of the Beast. Once a person takes that, he will have no further chance to be saved.



Yours truly,
Kathy G.

[MailmanGuy]

Can you answer these questions based on that interpretation?

1. Can people repent during the Tribulation?
2. Who are the Tribulation Saints (numbers that no man can count, from all nations)?
3. What is the purpose of the two witnesses?
4. Is there a point of no return?
5. Who will populate the Millennium?

1) Repentance is a “by product” of faith in Christ. Without the Holy Spirit in us,( born again) we are incapable of repenting. Faith is a gift from God,(Eph 2:8) not something we can muster up on our own ( like WOF folks believe). Since we don’t naturally look for God, (Rom 3:11) why or how would people repent (they have no faith)?

2)Tribulation Saints are........ us! That's the Church. They've been taken out of the earth, raptured "out of" great tribulation. The language here does not require that they be any part of the tribulation, only that they be taken out of it, or escape it. That's why the Church is caught away prior to the Beast being revealed in the earth. Notice that the tribulation is still happening on earth, the angel has just sealed the 144,000 Israelites to protect them from harm, but the multitude is already wearing the robes they received at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Rev 19:8). In fact, when Jesus returns at the end of the seventieth week, we accompany Him, wearing these self-same robes (Rev 19:14). The 144,000 are distinct from the great multitude that is in Heaven at that time, from every nation, kindred, people and tribe. They are already worshiping, while God is dealing with earthly Israel.


3) Two witnesses...Rev 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. They prophesy. They have the power to lock up the sky and to keep rain from falling while they are prophesying. And whenever they want to, they can turn water to blood and cause all kinds of terrible troubles on earth (Rev 11:6)They finally are killed, after God allows them to die, only to come back to life 3 ½ days later, for the world to see, then they enter up into Heaven. Stand by! At this point the “church”,”Two Witnesses” & 144,000 are gone from earth. Only the chosen Israelites, in the mountains, are left. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

4)Is there a point of no return? I’m not real clear on what is meant with this question. Sorry.:confused

5) Remember Rev 13:8? (And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.)
Yes, there are Israelites on earth whose names are written in the book. God turns his attention to them during the tribulation, after the Church is taken up. He begins by saving 144,000, representatives from every tribe, and calls them the first fruits. He keeps His remnant (as He always has) safe by guiding them into the wilderness for three and a half years (Rev. 12:6). And, they live into the millennium. Meanwhile, the 144,000 are found, intact, in Heaven, singing a song known only to them.

I’m new to this, and could be totally wrong, but it “fits”

Guy:):

[Pilgrim-Larry]

God gave me a second chance. How many times did I reject the gospel before I said yes? I lost count.

After being saved, I sinned again. He gave me another chance, and another, and another....and

Does God give a second chance? Sure.
Thank you Lord Jesus!

From original post -

Remember that the Holy Spirit is gone

In the Old testament, the question is asked,
'Where can I go to escape the presence of God?
Where can I go that He is not there?
He is in heaven, He is even in Hell'

(my paraphrase version, you get the point)

The Church may be gone in the time you mention, but God's Spirit will still be there. God is infinite. Space is finite and He is everywhere in it.

God's written word will still be there, memories about church members will still be there, memories of sermons heard will still be there, with those things there and God's Spirit always there....yes there will be another chance for people to follow God even thought most will not because of 'strong delusion.'

Pilgrim-Larry ....thankful for 70 x 7 second chances.

[MailmanGuy]

Just wanted to add that the re-gathering of Israel takes place at this time period (hasn’t happened yet).

Remember Israel’s 12 tribes were scattered? 10 Tribes to the north (House of Israel) and 2 Tribes to the south (House of Judea). Jews.

Only the House of Judea (Jews) has re-gathered....The House of Israel(10 Tribes of the north-aka the “Lost Tribes”) have not. This re-gathering happens during the Tribulation.

Guy

[kgreen20]

The Tribulation saints are, literally, the people who come to Christ during the Tribulation. They are not the Church. Think about it: if there could be no salvation during the Tribulation, there could be no Millennium to follow, either. So, yes, there will be a 2nd chance, praise God!



Kathy G.

[LaMontre]

Originally posted by kgreen20
The Tribulation saints are, literally, the people who come to Christ during the Tribulation. They are not the Church. Think about it: if there could be no salvation during the Tribulation, there could be no Millennium to follow, either. So, yes, there will be a 2nd chance, praise God!



Kathy G.

Well, there will be those who live through the tribulation without taking the mark. These will live on into the millenium.

The question to me is what happens during the tribulation. Is the new birth as we know it today still available during that time period?

Obviously, if they do not take the mark, they know something of God. There is another problem that arises with the view that there is no longer a new birth available during the tribuilation;

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Obviously there is a reason for this.

[MailmanGuy]

Think about it: if there could be no salvation during the Tribulation...

I never said that. His (God’s) elect, are protected from the beast(anti-christ), by going into the wilderness as ordered. Most survive and enter into the Millennium and repopulate. These people are Jews, and people from the Lost Tribes, of Israel.

The Tribulation saints are, literally, the people who come to Christ during the Tribulation. They are not the Church.

Can’t be Kathy, :): that theory doesn’t fit into scripture, without contradiction. If I’m wrong, show me scripture that supports your idea, of how it all fits in.

Guy

[MailmanGuy]

Originally posted by LaMontre

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Obviously there is a reason for this.
I’m glad you asked!

Remember Mat 24:14? And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Preachers use this verse to promote “the Great Commission” theory. The above verse is not preaching for salvation, but as a witness for judgement! No one can claim that they didn’t know, before God’s wrath is poured out unto them.

Now read Rev 14:6 ... And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and kindred and tongue and people,Rev 14:7 saying with a great voice, Fear God and give glory to Him! For the hour of His judgment has come. (present tense) And worship Him who made the heaven and the earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Matthew, shows Jesus prophesying about a time to come....Revelations, show how it will be done!

Guy:):

[LaMontre]

Originally posted by MailmanGuy
I’m glad you asked!

Remember Mat 24:14? And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Preachers use this verse to promote “the Great Commission” theory. The above verse is not preaching for salvation, but as a witness for judgement! No one can claim that they didn’t know, before God’s wrath is poured out unto them.

Now read Rev 14:6 ... And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and kindred and tongue and people,Rev 14:7 saying with a great voice, Fear God and give glory to Him! For the hour of His judgment has come. (present tense) And worship Him who made the heaven and the earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Matthew, shows Jesus prophesying about a time to come....Revelations, show how it will be done!

Guy:):

Yeah I see your point. Like I say, I have always felt that, based on the parable of the sheep and the goats, this was a possibility.

But I'm still not ready to make the jump yet I guess.

[Jany]

The controversial issue is whether or not those who have heard the Gospel before the Rapture and have rejected it will be allowed to respond and be saved after the Rapture.

The reason for the controversy is a passage in 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 which seems to indicate that such people will continue to reject the Gospel after the Rapture. Here’s the passage. Read it for yourself and draw your own conclusion: “And then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.”

This passage seems to teach that people who have rejected the truth before the Rapture will continue to do so. http://www.frinkian.com/images/smiles/heart.gif <><

[LaMontre]

Originally posted by Jany
The controversial issue is whether or not those who have heard the Gospel before the Rapture and have rejected it will be allowed to respond and be saved after the Rapture.

The reason for the controversy is a passage in 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 which seems to indicate that such people will continue to reject the Gospel after the Rapture. Here’s the passage. Read it for yourself and draw your own conclusion: “And then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.”

This passage seems to teach that people who have rejected the truth before the Rapture will continue to do so. http://www.frinkian.com/images/smiles/heart.gif <><

I agree. It is just a diffulty for us who believe in redemption by grace through faith, to accept any other means as a possibility. Although certainly there is biblical support for God changing covenants and means. So, for me, I am willing to say there is good biblical evidence that God may remove salvation by grace through faith.

During the tribulation, it is the taking of the mark which eternally condemns with NO chance for reprieve. This being the case, there would IMO have to be some means of grace whereby one would be inclined NOT to do so. However, I can find no real biblical indication of any OTHER form of grace that might be responsible for this. So I am forced to look to the current covenant for answers as to HOW a person might come to the conclusion that "the great deception" is indeed that. Obviously the bible says there will be some who will reach that conclusion. The question is "how" and "why"? (that is IF salvation by grace through faith is indeed removed from the earth.)

[Jany]

I agree. It is just a diffulty for us who believe in redemption by grace through faith, to accept any other means as a possibility.

It's difficult for we humans, but not for Him, right?

He says this and we want to believe that, right?

I really believe if one has had the seeds of the Gospel planted, and they still reject the Gospel; Rapture happens, their hearts are still hardened to Him - just like Pharoah of the OT <><

[MailmanGuy]

During the tribulation, it is the taking of the mark which eternally condemns with NO chance for reprieve. This being the case, there would IMO have to be some means of grace whereby one would be inclined NOT to do so.

IMHO...Hee! Hee! :D: (I like saying that!)

It’s going to come down to whose name is written in the “Lamb’s book of Life”, before the foundation of the world. (Rev 13:8) Those that were raptured were obviously in it, and those in Israel that live through the Great Tribulation and survive into the millennium(God’s elect 'Grace'), by hiding in the wilderness for 1260 days without the MOB, are obviously in it too.

We know the 144,000 are saved, the two witnesses are saved, the “church” is saved, and God’s elect in Israel are saved (Including those that were martyred {heads lopped off}). But that’s it. Everyone else took the “mark” and worshiped the beast.

Rev 13:8 The beast was worshiped by everyone whose name wasn't written before the time of creation in the book of the Lamb who was killed.

To me anyways, It makes sense. This is the seperating of the sheep from the goats, and is in line with scripture.
Guy

[LaMontre]

Not an argument, just a small analysis;(thinking out loud)

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So, at this point, after the openning of the fifth seal, there are still them that must be killed for, "the word of God, and for the testimony". So however you interpret this book, there is a time mentioned, when white robes are given, and yet there are still on the earth, (or in the future destiny of those on it) ones who will be killed for thier faith.

So, if we will accept the interpretation that there is no longer a grace through faith salvation during the tribulation and as such that chapter 6 of revelation is basically an outline of all of the history of men regarding God,(which is how you would be forced to interpret this) then we would have to say, that this (the fifth seal) is the church age. And those that are there in heaven talking to God have yet to experience the resurrection. And so this would be before the rapture.

OR

We could say that this is during the tribulation, and that these here are indeed a part of the raptured church (which would well explain the white robes) and that God is referring to those who will be slain for thier faith DURING the tribulation. In this interpretation, notice the fact that those YET to be killed are called "fellowservents and brethren"? And that they are killed "as they (the ones speaking to God) were"?

I am going to have to do some further study on this topic. But for now, I have to accept that salvation, (in this context, where you go after death, heaven or hell.) comes by grace through faith in the blood of Christ. Now we certainly do know that there are those who dont take the mark (for whatever reason) and survive the tribulation and live on into the millenium. But this is not necessarily born again people. (at least as I read Mat 25);

Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

They seem to not understand. Were they born again, certainly they would.

Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

BUT this verse (40) could be interpreted to be speaking of those WITH Christ at His return, whom they had no part in the persecution of (during the tribulation) BECAUSE they refused to take the mark.

Mat 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

But I do understand the doctrine. And I see it as real possibility.

[MailmanGuy]

So, if we will accept the interpretation that there is no longer a grace through faith salvation during the tribulation
Oh. there still is “Grace through Faith Salvation” going on...it is only now limited to a very few Israelites. Not Gentiles anymore. Imho
...then we would have to say, that this (the fifth seal) is the church age.
The “Fullness of the Gentiles” is over. The “Church” at this point is gone.:): We’ve been “taken out of” Great Tribulation! Spared! (Thank you Lord)
...But for now, I have to accept that salvation, (in this context, where you go after death, heaven or hell.) comes by grace through faith in the blood of Christ.
You’re right about this, my friend.
Now we certainly do know that there are those who dont take the mark (for whatever reason) and survive the tribulation and live on into the millenium. But this is not necessarily born again people.

I disagree, but I think I know where you might be going with this. I believe these people are born again and in the “Lamb’s book of Life”. However, their children, offspring, are the product of man and therefore born into sin. Right? Remember that Satan is released at the end of the millennium briefly? Why? Now you see where I’m going with this, huh?

This is a GREAT topic!
Guy

[joint heir]

hello everyone...

This was a quote from earlier in the thread and it seems as if a few of you all are in some form of agreement with this:


I think the operation of the Comforter was quite different in the Old Testament than it is today. The Holy Spirit did not in-dwell the believer of the Old Testament. Salvation was not by the Grace of God, but by faith and obedience (ceremony or actions).



Romans 3 and 4 clearly teaches us that all people are saved through faith as a result of grace.....and that this faith is credited as righteousness(4:3)

it stands to reason then that after the rapture those who are saved will be saved as a result of grace though faith.......

whether this will include the indwelling of the Holy Spirit remains to be seen....but we can be sure that there will at least be interaction of the Spirit similar to that of the OT.

[Pilgrim-Larry]

The Holy Spirit did not in-dwell the believer of the Old Testament.

David prayed, 'take not your Holy Spirit from me'.
The Holy Spirit in-dwelled David.

speaking of Old testament prophets, the new testament says,
'...the Spirit of Christ which was in them ..'

The Spirit of Christ (which is the Holy Spirit) in-dwelled those of old.

Pilgrim-Larry

[MailmanGuy]

Originally posted by Pilgrim-Larry
David prayed, 'take not your Holy Spirit from me'.
The Holy Spirit in-dwelled David.

speaking of Old testament prophets, the new testament says,
'...the Spirit of Christ which was in them ..'

The Spirit of Christ (which is the Holy Spirit) in-dwelled those of old.

Pilgrim-Larry
1Sa 16:13 ..."and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David..."

Did not indwell, but came on David.:):

[Lonewolf7]

Originally posted by Pilgrim-Larry
David prayed, 'take not your Holy Spirit from me'.
The Holy Spirit in-dwelled David.

speaking of Old testament prophets, the new testament says,
'...the Spirit of Christ which was in them ..'

The Spirit of Christ (which is the Holy Spirit) in-dwelled those of old.

Pilgrim-Larry

John 7:39
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

[Pilgrim-Larry]

QUOTE - from the original post
speaking of Old testament prophets, the new testament says,
'...the Spirit of Christ which was in them ..'
END QUOTE

This verse plainly says the Spirit of Christ was 'IN' them, not upon them.

Here is the full verse -
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Pilgrim-Larry

[Joyful One]

Question ... Can there be salvation during the tribulation period and if so who can benefit from it ... ?

Christine wrote the following questions ..


1. Can people repent during the Tribulation?
2. Who are the Tribulation Saints (numbers that no man can count, from all nations)?
3. What is the purpose of the two witnesses?
4. Is there a point of no return?
5. Who will populate the Millennium?


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have been raised and taught Baptist doctrine . I'm not here to
debate(I'm not that smart ) and I am in no way saying I have this all right . I'm only sharing what I have managed to come to understand . I believe in a pre-trib rapture . I believe the futuristic school of thought . I believe in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth , I believe in the premillenialist viewpoint .


I have been attending the same church for 10 years . I have never heard a minister at my church preach about the rapture , tribulation ect in any detail , although in my home church that I grew up in I was taught about the rapture and tribulation - but thats been 25 years ago . The two prior ministers have mentioned them in passing so to speak . The minister we now have said that during the tribulation , salvation will not be available for the ones who have rejected Christ before the rapture of the church . I have always been taught and thought that salvation was available to anyone as long as they didn't worship the anti- christ and if they didn't take the mark of the beast ... and of course the biggest part accept Jesus Christ as Savior .However our minister's statement has caused me to search - how I found this thread , Study the subject and really look at this subject instead of just going with what I've been taught ...

Finally what I think ... When the Jews rejected Jesus , God cut them off and the time of the Gentiles came into being .Now is the church age . The New Testament after Jesus's death and resurrection and rejection is focused on " Christians ". However , soon the Gentiles time will be fulfilled and perhaps God will be finished with the Gentiles , so to speak , and all his attention will be on the Jews . Perhaps . (edited to say - perhaps not )


Mailman wrote ...
" Approx. 2,000 years later when the “time of the Gentiles is fulfilled” (Luk 21:24) And the “church” is removed, ( 1Co 15:52 ) God’s focus is back on Israel, and Daniel’s 70th week of years, starts up. (Tribulation) (Dan 9:27) " - I couldn't have said this any better myself .

I believe with all my heart that God's main attention will be on the Jews . I'm thankful that Jesus died for me too and that God loves me too , but I know I don't replace the Jews . The following pertains to Gentile - all who are not Jew ...

I had to ask myself ... Would it be fair to all who have died in a state of rejecting Jesus to let the rejecting ones who are left behind after the rapture to get another chance that the dead will never get ?

Then I had to ask myself . Does the Holy Spirit convict each and every person before they die ? The answer HAS to be yes . God would not let someone die without the chance of receiving his Son .

Perhaps before the rapture of the church God will instruct the Holy Spirit to visit all and give all a chance to accept Christ . Edited --- Zechariah 14:16 changed my mind ...



If not ...the unconvicted Gentiles will have a chance at salvation and the ones who have been placed under the conviction of the Holy spirit and have rejected Christ will be likened to the ones who have died in the state if rejection-- no second chances . I just can't see people who are doomed to spend eternity in Hell because they died while in a state of rejecting Jesus ,being told that" well these people got another chance because they happened to be living in the time that Jesus came back and raptured His church "" They had to not worship the beast and not take his mark and accept Jesus as Savior , sorry , but there is nothing that you are permitted to do because you had a literal physical death and with that you can not change your mind/heart and receive salvation . I believe with all my heart that God is the fairest most just that there is ...

I will admit I was leaning to the second part .. A chance for the ones left behind who have not been convicted by the Holy spirit . The reason I leaned this way is this ...

Revelation 7
The Great Multitude in White Robes
9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
14I answered, "Sir, you know."
15And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb………


Most intesting is 15 - come out of . My human mind says you must be "in " something to come out of it ... But then again it could mean that they didn't enter the tribulation .





Could the every nation ,tribe, people , language be the raptured body of Christ - US ? The reason I think this is a very good possibility is Rev. Chapter 20 - The thousand years .. Verse 4 - I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshipped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands . They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years . This right before Christ's 1000 year reign . Seems to me the many people in chapter 7 are a different group of people than the ones in chapter 20 who have clearly died during the tribulation ... And it doesn't say anything about the group in chapter 7 being killed . Also in Chapter 6 John saw the souls of those who had been slain( pre-trib maryters ) and they were told to wait on the others who would die during the tribulation . So we have slain souls in chapters 6 and 20 . I assume that when the ones in chapter 20 " came to live " so did the ones in chapter 6 . Chapter 7 doesn't say John saw the "souls " of the people in chapter 7 - He saw a great multitude . Again - chapter 7 people seem like a different group when compared to the souls of the slain in 6 and 20 .


Another train of thought and this will be number 3 . God does give every Gentile the choice of salvation with the aid of the convicting Holy Spirit before the rapture of the church and the tribulation period is all about the Jews and salvation will not be there for the Gentiles ....

Edited -- I don't think number 3 is correct




I don't know if the Holy Spirit is removed with the raptured church .. I tend to believe that the 3rd part of the Holy Trinity can be anyplace He wants to be .I am of the mind that He will be used to place conviction on the hearts of the Jews and of the unconvicted Gentiles- if there are any( edited - I think there will be ) . . I think it is possible " the restrainer " is the Church - the body of Christ , who should be the voice against sin in this world and who should be the witnesses reaching out to a lost and dying world . Another reason why I believe that the Jews are the focus as someone else said is the two witnesses and the 144,000 . The 144,000 are Jews and the two witnesses are in Israel . Who will be reaching the Gentiles during this time ? Considering all the hatred felt for the Jewish people right now I don't think all that many Gentile people will give a hoot about what the 144,000 Jews say . After all ,who really cared while millions of them were being killed by Hitler ?

Now for a question ...

Kgreen20 wrote "If only Jews could be saved during the Tribulation, that means only Jews would enter the Millennium. Since the Millennium will not be populated solely by Jews, we can know that's not true!"

Not arguing here , really , I just don't know where you get that it isn't only Jews who populate the millennium . I'm not saying it will be , only asking where you got it won't be ... Thanks .(Edited - ok I've found the answer - Zechariah 14:16 )


Finally it is time for me to see "if " I can answer those questions ...

1. Can people repent during the Tribulation?
2. Who are the Tribulation Saints (numbers that no man can count, from all nations)?
3. What is the purpose of the two witnesses?
4. Is there a point of no return?
5. Who will populate the Millennium?

1- Yes . Jews and unconvicted Gentiles if there are any .(edited - I think there will be )
2- the raptured body of Christ - US
3- to reach the Jews - the witnesses will be in Israel , right ? . Maybe the unconvicted Gentiles if there are any(edited - I think there will be ) and "if " the "powers" that be will let TV cover the "story "
4-Convicted Gentiles ,taking the mark of the beast , worshipping the beast , refusing to accept Jesus as Savior .
5- Jews and unconvicted Gentiles-( if there are any )(edited - I think there will be ) who accept Jesus during the Tribulation ...

In closing , I must add that I have read every Left behind book and will probably read the last one , but "if " and really I do mean "if" I am correct in my thinking that during the tribulation Gentile pre-rapture rejectors of Christ are not given a " second " chance , then I shudder to think of the people who put off making their decision to accept Jesus Christ now ...Could this possibly be the scroll that was sweet and sour? The scroll that John swallowed ? Seems to discribe something that taste sweet - you want it , believe it , but once you take it in you realize it's sour and you've been mistaken by the taste , sound , looks of it ... ????

Chapter 7 of Revelations addresses the 144,000 Jews and the multitude in Heaven from every nation , tribe , people ,and language .
Chapter 8 addresses 7th seal and the first 4 trumpets
Chapter 9 addresses 5th and 6th trumpets . It ends with 20- The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent ....
Chapter 10- The Angel with the small scroll . The last verse of Chapter 10 says ...11 - Then I was told " You must prophesy again about many peoples,nations ,languages, and kings ," . This after John ate the scroll that tasted sweet , but was sour in his stomach . This after the 7 thunders spoke and John was told not to write down what he heard . I guess I'm trying to get the connection between chapter 7's every nation ,tribe, people. and language and Chapter 10's many peoples, nations , languages , and kings ... any ideas here ???


Edited to add ... after more studying and searching because of Christine's explaination of who will populate the Millennium using Zechariah 14:16 I can find no other explaination as to who the people are from the nations that came against Israel other than they are Gentile who were saved during the tribulation . I'm still standing by my understanding that Gentiles who rejected Christ while under the conviction of the Holy Spirit pre- rapture are likened to the dead who did the same thing ... This has been and continues to be a learning subject for me .

[LaMontre]

(I hate when that happens.) :B:

I have often come to the conclusion, (and since some of the dispensational conversations we have had recently) have been pondering this again;

That, the only escape from the tribulation is not taking the mark. Escape in your physical body (live throgh it without taking the mark) and live on into the millenium. Or get killed for not taking the mark, and be saved.

Now the question always comes, "Why (or how) would anyone make it without the power of the Holy Spirit and a revelation of whats happening around them. (escaping the great delusion)?"

There will be many signs and wonders happening. (some lying, some true) Many reasons for a person to make a logical conclusion. Although I realize this view has some problems, I think it could just be another dispensation.

Perhaps this view has been stated but I'd like to hear some thoughts.:eek

[MailmanGuy]

Wow! This thread is still going....Great!
Hi Joyful One

...I believe with all my heart that God's main attention will be on the Jews . I'm thankful that Jesus died for me too and that God loves me too , but I know I don't replace the Jews .God’s attention will be on the Israelites (not just Jews). The 10 tribes of the north have not regathered . Only the “House of Judea”, has regathered today. This happens during Tribulation. Those left behind after the pre-trib rapture (except for God’s elect Israelites), despite popular opnion here, will not have that second chance.

Look here. “Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life...” If you take the mark...lake of fire. Don’t take the mark...killed. Only God’s chosen Israelites (His elect), that are protected by God in those 3 areas, from the beast, proceed into the millennium. This won't be just Jews.
...Then I had to ask myself . Does the Holy Spirit convict each and every person before they die ? The answer HAS to be yes . God would not let someone die without the chance of receiving his Son I’m sorry, but He does not. You can’t be convicted by the Holy Spirit if the Spirit isn’t in you. If it’s in you, then you’re born again. Paul says, “2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.”

Just like putting “earnest” money down for a home addition (this money tells the contractor that you’re serious, before he even starts tearing anything apart...it’s his guarantee of a future payment), the Holy Spirit is our guarantee for our future life eternal.

Edited to add ... after more studying and searching because of Christine's explaination of who will populate the Millennium using Zechariah 14:16 I can find no other explaination as to who the people are from the nations that came against Israel other than they are Gentile who were saved during the tribulationThere will be only ONE RELIGION during the Millennium. Those who refuse to worship Christ will be punished (Zec. 14:16-19).

People will be happy during this time, because Satan will no longer be around to tempt them. The curse of Genesis chapter three will be lifted, and men will once again live long lives as they did in the days of Adam, Noah, and Methuselah (Isa. 33:24; 65:20).There will be better farming and weather conditions (Isa. 30:23-26; Amos 9:13-15; Joel 2:19-24; Ezk. 36:29-30), and wild animals will become tame (Isa. 11:6-9; Rom. 8:20-21).

The so-called "lost tribes" of Israel will be fully restored to their proper land divisions (Ezk. 36-48). Jerusalem will be the capital city of the world (Jer. 3:17; Mic. 4:8). Justice will be executed in the earth like never before. Good will overcome evil. Things will be done on earth as they are in Heaven (Mat. 6:10). Christ and His saints will reign over the earth for one thousand years!

You're starting to "See" this:):
Keep praying!!
Guy

[BarbT]

This passage seems to teach that people who have rejected the truth before the Rapture will continue to do so. Tragically, many will continue to reject the truth, this we know for sure. But where does the bible dogmatically say NOT ONE left behind person will change? :confused

Ours is the God of second chances, folks. :): Stubborn people who couldn't make up their minds about God before the Rapture will come to their senses after we are gone. These new Christians will be under a harsh system {I sure don't envy them}, without the Grace we now enjoy in this dispensation, but they WILL "endure the tribulation to the end". :thumb

[kgreen20]

So true, BarbT! Failure to accept Christ before the Rapture does not count as an unpardonable sin afterward.



Kathy G.

[Joyful One]

Hello Mailmanguy...

Well ,it looks like I've jumped in over my head . I will offer my thoughts and will say from the get go that I am not claiming to be 100% right . I will not view this as an argument . OK here we or really here I go .



Quote from mailmanguy :

____________________________________________________

God’s attention will be on the Israelites (not just Jews). The 10 tribes of the north have not regathered . Only the “House of Judea”, has regathered today. This happens during Tribulation. Those left behind after the pre-trib rapture (except for God’s elect Israelites), despite popular opnion here, will not have that second chance.
____________________________________________________

I was in error when I stated " Jews" .

Noah
Shem - Shemite
Arphaxad
Shelah
Eber - Hebrew and Shemite
Peleg
Reu
Serug
Nahor
Terah
Abraham - Hebrew and Shemite
Isaac - Hebrew and Shemite
Jacob - Hebrew and Shemite

Israelites are the descendants of Jacob, who God renamed Israel.

Jacob's sons- Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph and Benjamine.

Levi was removed to perpetuate the priesthood and Joseph was removed , but replaced by his two sons Ephraim and Manesseh . So it is back to 12 again .

From Jacob's son Judah come the terms Jew and Jewish.

The first Jews were the children of Judah. The descendants of the other eleven of Jacob's sons were not Jews, but were themselves named accordingly e.g. from Levi came the Levites, from Benjamin came the Benjamites and so on.


OK --- if it were me I'd say they are all Shemite . Why does Eber get Hebrew added on to what he is ? Was his father not just Shemite ? And the same question goes for Israelites . They are really blood wise still Shemite . And the same for Judah - isn't his bloodline really Shemite ? I'm totally confused here , but that's ok , I understand what you were saying mailmanguy . I would say the " special group " are all the descendants of Abraham through Isaac -and then through Jacob - they can be called by different names - the bloodline is there ... And the covenant God gave to Abraham and his seed - Issac -Jacob - his 12 sons.

So........ When it is said "Jews" are God's chosen people we are wrong ?Is it all the tribes of Israel / Judah that is included - all 12 ? Only the tribes of Judah and Benjamin are in Israel now .

Question -
14:16
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Concerning who will populate the Millennium .The tribes of Reuben, Simeon, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun,Ephraim, and Manesseh are in another land , nation ,country - anyway someplace other than Israel , and have been in the other nations for years .. Since many nations in that region of the world will be coming against Israel - I can't help but think that these tribes are in those nations . So instead of " saved gentile " populating the Millennium , I'm thinking it is plausable that it is the saved from the 10 tribes this is refering to . Of course there will be saved from the tribe of Judah and Benjamin who would also populate . .

On to the next subject ...

Quote from mailmanguy
_____________________________________________________________________

I’m sorry, but He does not. You can’t be convicted by the Holy Spirit if the Spirit isn’t in you. If it’s in you, then you’re born again. Paul says, “2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.”
______________________________________________________________________

Ok I couldn't explain what I think the Holy Sprit roles are so I'm using something I found . The part that I was trying to explain is found in section 4 of this article .The other parts of this article I'm not sure I'm up to debating .Truth be told I just didn't want to use some of the article . Perhaps the rest of the article will cause some conversation . So I'm back to thinking - still thinking - that indeed when the Scripture says the time of the Gentile is fulfilled and the 70th week of Jacobs troubles begin - it is all about the 12 Tribes and their salvation . I still hold on to the Holy Spirit will make himself known to all Gentiles before the rapture of the church . God , Jesus , and the Holy Spirit can do anything . This way all have a time to accept the salvation or reject the salvation .

link http://www.bible.org/docs/theology/pneuma/holysp.htm

Survey of Bible Doctrine:
The Holy Spirit

by
Sid Litke, Th.M.

I. The “personhood” of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is a personal being just as the Father and the Son. The Spirit is not an impersonal “it” or simply an influence.

A. The Spirit has personal characteristics.

1. He has intelligence (1 Cor.2:10-11).

2. He has emotions (Eph.4:30 – “Do not grieve the Holy Spirit”).

3. He has will (1 Cor.2:11).

B. The Spirit acts in personal ways.

1. He teaches us (John 14:26).

2. He commands (Acts 8:29).

3. He intercedes for us in prayer (Rom.8:26).

C. The Spirit is described in personal terms grammatically. The Greek word for Spirit (pneuma) is neuter in gender, yet the Bible uses masculine pronouns (“He,” “Him”) to refer to the Spirit (John 16:13-14; 15:26; 16:7-8. To be grammatically correct, personal neuter pronouns (“it”) would be expected.

II. The deity of the Holy Spirit

A. He has the names and titles of deity.

1. Yahweh – What the Lord (Yahweh) said in Is.6:8-13 is ascribed to the Holy Spirit in Acts 28:25.

2. Spirit of God (Rom.8:9,14; 1 Cor.2:11; 12:3; Eph.4:30)

B. He possesses incommunicable attributes.

1. Self-existence (Rom.8:2)

2. Omnipresence (Ps.139:7 ff)

C. He performs incommunicable works (no one but God can do them).

1. Creation (Gen.1:2)

2. Resurrection (Rom.8:11)

D. He is equated with deity.

1. Acts 5:3,4 – a lie to Spirit equals lie to God

2. 2 Cor.3:17,18 – “The Lord is the Spirit”

III. The Holy Spirit’s role prior to the Church Age

A. He took part in creation (Gen.1:2; Job 33:4; Psalm 104:30).

B. He guided and protected Israel (Isaiah 63:10-14).

C. He spoke through prophets to produce Scripture (1 Peter 1:11: 2 Peter 1:20,21).

D. He selectively and conditionally indwelt certain people in the Old Testament (Joseph – Gen.41:38; Joshua – Num.27:18; Saul – 1 Sam.10:9,10; David – 1 Sam.16:13 etc.). The Spirit’s indwelling was specifically related to enabling someone to do a particular task. The Holy Spirit could cease to indwell a person because of their disobedience. The Spirit left Saul (1 Sam.16:14). When David sinned he pled that the Spirit not be taken from him (Psalm 51:11).

E. He was the empowering Agent in Christ’s earthly life.

1. He was the Agent of Christ’s virgin birth (Luke 1:35).

2. He empowered Christ’s ministry (Matt.12:28; Luke 4:1,18).

3. He was the Agent of Christ’s resurrection (Rom.1:4; 8:11).

IV. The Holy Spirit’s role in the Church Age

A. He is central in salvation (How people are saved).

1. He directs and enables evangelistic efforts (Philip/Ethiopian – Acts 8:26,29; Great Commission – Acts 1:8).

2. He convicts the unbeliever of sin (John 16:8-11).

3. He regenerates (saves) the person.

a. He cleanses the person from sin and gives them the new nature (Titus 3:5).

b. As He performs this spiritual “new birth,” the person enters “the kingdom of God” (=eternal life – John 3:3-7,16).

4. He seals (eternally secures) the person. The presence of the Holy Spirit is the “seal” or guarantee that a person is saved and will remain saved (Eph.1:13).

5. He baptizes (places) the person into the body of Christ.

a. What is the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

- It is the Spirit’s work of uniting us with Christ – spiritually identifying us with Christ’s death, burial and resurrection (Rom.6:3-5).

- It is the Spirit’s work of incorporating us into the universal church (=the “body of Christ” – all church age believers – 1 Cor.12:13).

b. When is the baptism of the Spirit?

- In each believer it occurs once and for all at their conversion (1 Cor.12:13; Gal.3:26-28).

- In history it is limited to church age believers (predicted – Acts 1:5; accomplished – 1 Cor.12:13).

- Note: Exceptions – On the Day of Pentecost when the church age began, both new and existing believers were baptized by the Spirit (Acts 1:5; 11:15,16). Also in 2 other cases in the early church it seems the Spirit was not given to believers until an apostle was present (Acts 8:14-17; 19:1-6).

B. He is central in sanctification (How saved people grow).

1. He indwells believers.

a. The Spirit indwells all believers in this age (Rom.5:5; 8:9; 1 Cor.3:16; 6:19). (unlike the Old Testament where the Spirit indwelt some)

b. The Spirit indwells believers permanently in this age (John 14:16). (unlike the Old Testament where the Spirit could depart)

c. The Spirit’s indwelling is the basis for His other ministries in believer’s lives. (He teaches/illumines us about scripture – John 16:13; He aids in prayer – Rom.8:26; He assures us of our salvation – Rom.8:16; He enables us to grow – see “filling” below – Eph.5:18).

2. He “fills” believers.

- The “filling of the Spirit” describes the crucial work of God enabling the believer to live a transformed life. The only way we grow spiritually is by the empowering work of God (1 Peter 1:3). It is specifically the ministry of the Holy Spirit that gives a Christian the capability of change and growth in righteousness (by the Spirit…” – putting to death the deeds of the body” – Rom.8:13; the fruit of the Spirit…” – Gal.5:22,23).

- Spiritual growth us a issue of control. We are either controlled by our self-centered flesh or by the Holy Spirit who indwells us (Rom.8:4-11; Gal.5:16,17). Ephesians 5:18 describes this controlling/empowering ministry of Spirit as the “filling” of the Spirit. “Filling” is a metaphor (picture) of control. We can be filled/controlled by fleshly desires (like alcohol) or be filled/controlled by the Spirit (Eph.5:18).

- Although it’s the Spirit’s power that is at work, the believer must choose to be controlled/empowered by the Spirit. It is a command to “Be filled” and likewise to “Walk in the Spirit” (Gal.5:16). The Spirit’s presence is permanent (indwelling) but we must repeatedly choose to yield to God to experience the Spirit’s transforming power to change and grow us (filling). In actual experience, “walking in the Spirit” or “being filled with the Spirit” means living the Christian life (facing temptations, making decisions, etc.) with a conscious dependence on the Holy Spirit. He is the one who enable us – producing godly “fruits” (Gal.5:22,23).

3. He gives spiritual gifts to believers.

a. Where do I find out about spiritual gifts? Four key passages describe spiritual gifts: Romans 12:3-8; 1 Corinthians 12; Ephesians 4:7-16; 1 Peter 4:10,11.

b. What are spiritual gifts?

1) Definition: Spiritual gifts are God-given abilities to serve. The Greek word for spiritual gift (charisma) is a form of the word “grace.” So these special abilities are privileges. God graciously enables all believers to serve in spiritual ministry.

2) Spiritual gifts are not particular positions. Youth ministry leader or nursery worker are not gifts although those ministries definitely can put to use spiritual gifts such as teaching, serving, etc.

3) Spiritual gifts are not the same as natural talent (music ability or mechanical aptitude, etc.) although God may often give spiritual gifts that make use of natural abilities. A musician may have the gift of encouragement. An experienced school teacher may have the gift of teaching, etc.

c. How do we get spiritual gifts?

1) The Giver – The Holy Spirit in particular imparts these special abilities (1 Cor.12:7-11). But it is also accurate to say that they are “Christ’s gifts” to the church (Eph.4:7,8,10).

2) The Time – We receive spiritual gifts when we trust Christ as Savior. That’s when we received the Spirit; that’s when we became part of the body of Christ.

3) The Recipients – Each believer has at least one but perhaps several gifts.

d. What is the purpose of spiritual gifts?

1) Spiritual gifts accomplish spiritual ministry that God desires.

2) Spiritual gifts equip others to minister (Eph.4:12).

3) Spiritual gifts glorify God (1 Pet.4:11).

e. What are the different spiritual gifts?

1) Some of the gifts listed seem to have been temporary, serving to establish the early church and to verify the gospel to people as Christianity began (Eph.2:20; Heb.2:3,4 – See supplement “The Charismatic Question” for more detail.). The temporary sign gifts included apostleship, healing, miracle-working, tongues, interpretation of tongues, etc. Also temporary were the word of wisdom, word of knowledge, and prophecy – by which God gave direct revelation to man. These gifts were needed before the New Testament was complete. They were also seemingly the gifts needed to write the New Testament.

2) Gifts that doubtless exist today include teaching, helps (serving), giving, administration (leadership), showing mercy, evangelism, pastor-teacher (shepherding) and exhortation. These gifts are crucial to the ongoing function of the church throughout this age.

f. How do we discover and use our spiritual gift(s)?

1) We should concentrate on meeting needs, not pin-pointing our gifts. Ministry experience may expose unused gifts.

2) We should allow the advice of other mature Christians to guide us into areas of service for which we are suited and away from areas for which we are not.

3) We should not use spiritual gifts as an excuse to avoid certain ministries. Christians are universally told to do some types of ministry (Show mercy – James 2:13; 3:17; Evangelize – Acts 1:8; Exhort one another – Heb.3:13; 10:25; Give – 2 Cor.8:7) which are also the specific spiritual gifts of some Christians (Mercy – Rom.12:8; Evangelist – Eph.4:11; Exhortation – Rom.12:8; Giving – Rom.12:8).

4) We must realize that spiritual gifts do not benefit others automatically.

- We must obediently put our gift(s) to use. No one benefits if we don’t use them (Rom.12:6-8; 1 Pet.4:10,11).

- We must be diligent to become effective in using our gift (1 Tim.4:14; 2 Tim.1:6,7).

- We must use our gifts with proper attitudes (Rom.12:8; 1 Pet.4:11) and at appropriate times and places (1 Cor.14:9-12,22,23,40). Otherwise they can be worthless or even harmful to God’s purposes.

V. The Holy Spirit’s role in the End Times

A. In the 7-year Tribulation Period

1. In unbelievers – The Holy Spirit will be instrumental in the salvation of Israelites at the close of the tribulation (Zech.12:10).

2. In believers – The Holy Spirit will provide special enablement for spiritual tasks as in Old Testament times (Acts 2:17-21).

From me - Joyful One - Believers Saved in the Tribulation period - didn't want anyone to think this was a rapture issue ... Ones who are believers now as in today will already be gone ... I'm not sure if the restainer that is taken away is the church or the Holy Spirit , but I hold to the Holy Spirit can be wherever He wants to be .

B. In the Millennium

1. In believers – The Holy Spirit will enable believing Israelites to live righteously (Ezek.36:27).

2. In Christ – The Holy Spirit will be active in Christ’s righteous rule (Isa.11:2



I think thats all for now mailmanguy . Thank you for the conversation . I'm starting to feel like Howard Dean - keep changing my mind . A little bit of humor there . But , I think that learning leaves the door open to changing ones mind ... BTW mailmanguy - what denomination are you ? I've already told what I am ..

Our minister has just now entered into this area of study and I can say I am very excited to be involved .

[MailmanGuy]

Question -
14:16
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Concerning who will populate the Millennium ... So instead of " saved gentile " populating the Millennium , I'm thinking it is plausible that it is the saved from the 10 tribes this is referring to . Of course there will be saved from the tribe of Judah and Benjamin who would also populate . . Yes, yes yes, you’re getting it!:thumb
So I'm back to thinking - still thinking - that indeed when the Scripture says the time of the Gentile is fulfilled and the 70th week of Jacobs troubles begin - it is all about the 12 Tribes and their salvation God seals 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes. They can’t take the “mark” because God sealed them in their forehead. They’re saved. No worries for them. They don’t know who they are yet,(lost tribes) because their not born again yet, but their names are written in the book of life before the foundation of the world. They become born again after the rapture.I still hold on to the Holy Spirit will make himself known to all Gentiles before the rapture of the church .God , Jesus , and the Holy Spirit can do anything . This way all have a time to accept the salvation or reject the salvation .
We’ll agree to disagree. (John 15:16):B:Although it’’s the Spirit’’s power that is at work, the believer must choose to be controlled/empowered by the Spirit. Completely disagree! Go tell Paul (Saul) that! He hated Christians. Tell Mathew that! He was rich! Gave everything up. We won’t start that debate again. Hee! Hee! :laughI'm not sure if the restainer that is taken away is the church or the Holy Spirit , but I hold to the Holy Spirit can be wherever He wants to be . The restrainer is the church. The Holy Spirit restrains, the church (seals them).I think thats all for now mailmanguy . Thank you for the conversation . I'm starting to feel like Howard Dean - keep changing my mind . A little bit of humor there . But , I think that learning leaves the door open to changing ones mind ... BTW mailmanguy - what denomination are you ? I've already told what I am .. I agree. I never thought along these lines before. You know, the bible says that No one (unsaved) understands God. So what we are learning here, together, is a gift from Him. Pretty cool! We need to remind ourselves that, scripture needs to interput, scripture. It’s tempting to put our 2cents worth (analogy) into scripture to make it “fit” better. Kind of like the way.... we think it should be. Scripture has the answers that we’re asking.

I belong to a Baptist church (www.oldnorthchurch.org), however I prefer to think of myself as non-denominational. Saved by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ. Nothing else! Only Him!

[Joyful One]

Quote from Joyful One:

I still hold on to the Holy Spirit can make himself known to all Gentiles before the rapture of the church .God , Jesus , and the Holy Spirit can do anything . This way all have a time to accept the salvation or reject the salvation .
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Quote from Mailmanguy:

We’ll agree to disagree. (John 15:16


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15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

I will agree that we do not seek God - He seeks us .It is God's wish that none perish , no not one .


Jesus speaking ...

Matthew
18:12
How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

18:13
And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

18:14
Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.


Jesus speaking

John

16:5
But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?

16:6
But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.

16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

16:8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

16:9
Of sin, because they believe not on me;

16:10
Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

16:11
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

So.... It is God's will that no-one perish . God knows the timetable of when the Gentiles time is fulfilled . How does God seek us ? Through the person of the Holy Spirit .I just can't comprehend my loving , just Father allowing people to spend an eternity in Hell without the benefit of God seeking them out . It is up to the unbeliever as to what they do when visited by the Holy Spirit . They will either accept the message and invite Jesus into their hearts and lives along with the presence of the Holy Spirit or they will reject the gift ...

Unless God chooses not to make Himself and Jesus known to some and in doing so condemning them to hell automatically . Would God really condemn someone to hell when they have not been given the chance to accept or reject ?I don't know this answer . I always thought " where little is known , little is required " fit that bill . And the age of accountability .

____________________________________________________
Quote from the article :

Although it’’s the Spirit’’s power that is at work, the believer must choose to be controlled/empowered by the Spirit.
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Quote from Mailmanguy:

Completely disagree! Go tell Paul (Saul) that! He hated Christians. Tell Mathew that! He was rich! Gave everything up. We won’t start that debate again. Hee! Hee!

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In my heart I don't feel that I am debating you .I pray that you don't view it that I am . I'm only trying to understand what you have presented . In my mind if anything I see Saul/Paul and Matthew as examples of the God/Jesus /Holy Spirit's work and Saul and Matthew saying yes ...

Saul hated Christians . He thought that Christians posed a threat to Judaism ...


Acts 9

And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

9:4
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

9:5
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

9:7
And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

9:8
And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

9:9
And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

9:10
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

9:11
And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

9:12
And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

9:13
Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

9:14
And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.

9:15
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

9:16
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

9:17
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

9:18
And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.



It appears that Jesus wasn't going to give Saul a choice . Is this what you meant by go ask Saul / Paul ?
There was a great light . Jesus asked Saul why persecutest thou me?
Saul asks Who art thou, Lord? ( Saul knew exactly who was talking to him .) Jesus answers I'm Jesus . The very next thing out of Sauls mouth was "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? "
This before Jesus told him what to do .Why did Saul instantly concede ? Fear ? Maybe . And/Or His eyes and heart was opened in an instant with the truth of who Jesus was ...After all Saul had to know who Jesus was . I wonder if Saul ever really wondered if there was something to this man named Jesus ? I wonder if Saul was ever witness to any of the miracles ? I wonder if Saul ever considered the message that Jesus was the author on earth of ? The message of love . Jesus wasn't teaching anything that was mean , hateful ,radical ... He taught that we should love one another as God loved us . Anyway , I wonder if perhaps somehow Saul had been thinking about and considering these things even as he was killing . I wonder if he thought his hatred was a good thing ? In light of what Jesus taught . After all I'm sure he never saw Jesus or his desciples out killing someone who didn't believe as they did .I wonder if seeing or knowing that this man called Jesus had been killed when he really was guilty of nothing stirred something in Saul's heart . Could it be he was primed and ready that the voice of Jesus was enough to cause him to ask so quickly ,"Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? ".

Also get this part ...
9:11
And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

Saul was praying .

And this
9:18
And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Saul was baptized .



Someone who encountered Jesus while He was alive and said no to selling his things and following Christ . The rich man was even offered treasure in Heaven and still he declined .

Matthew
19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

19:22
But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Jesus was rejected by many many people when he walked the earth . Jesus is rejected today day in and day out . Jesus is made fun of , mocked , cursed . If Jesus crossed the line to just get His man Saul /Paul , then something along the way happens to our free will . I don't thinkthat God , Jesus , or the Holy Spirit made anyone accept Jesus as Savior . Not in the Old Testament and not in the New .
____________________________________________________

This is from another post . Sorry I guess I was trying to answer two posts at one time .


Quote from Mailmanguy:

If I were living the “old days” and saw Paul (Saul) killing the Christians, I would of thought for sure, he was going to hell. But his name was written into the book of life before the foundation of the world. (Rev 13:8) He was chosen before anything, that we know of, was created. This can mean only one thing....Sovereign God.
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Was he chosen before the foundation of the world was laid , or is it that God who knows all things past , present , and future knew Saul would have a change of heart and life ? I don't think God makes anyone do anything as in accepting his Son . I do believe that all the names of the saved are written in the Lambs book of life pre- foundation , but not because God makes anyone , but because God already knows how the future will play out and who will accept and who won't accept Jesus Christ ...


Matthew .

Basically what I found was this ....
Matthew
9:9
And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him.

Mark
2:14
And as he passed by, he saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting at the receipt of custom, and said unto him, Follow me. And he arose and followed him.

Luke
5:27
And after these things he went forth, and saw a publican, named Levi, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he said unto him, Follow me.

5:28
And he left all, rose up, and followed him.



Jesus said "follow me " and Matthew did . I guess this can be seen that Matthew didn't have the ability to say no .But if that is so , why would Matthew not have free will ? Yes , God already knew Matthew would follow Jesus , but only because Matthew said yes after Jesus asking . I agree with you Mailmanguy that God does seek us out , but how we answer the question is up to us ...

[MailmanGuy]

...Jesus speaking ... Matthew18:12 , 18:13 ,18:14 Jesus is talking about sheep (believers). As a believer we sin and the Holy Spirit will chastise you for it, but He brings you back to Him. That of which the Father gives me, no man can take out of my hand. Not any of His sheep (believers) will perish....It is up to the unbeliever as to what they do when visited by the Holy Spirit The Holy Spirit doesn’t visit. To visit means....to stay temporary. The Holy Spirit is our guarantee of salvation.( Eph 1:14)...Saul asks Who art thou, Lord? ( Saul knew exactly who was talking to him .) Jesus answers I'm Jesus . The very next thing out of Sauls mouth was "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? " What a great question from Saul. Not, How must I be saved, but what will you have me do. At this point in time Jesus is saying you’re mine! He's now a believer indwelled with the Holy Spirit. ...After all Saul had to know who Jesus was.. Everyone knows Jesus, but does everyone know Jesus? No.Someone who encountered Jesus while He was alive and said no to selling his things and following Christ . The rich man was even offered treasure in Heaven and still he declined .Matthew
19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
19:22
But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. I’m glad you brought that up...Many folks are told (by churches, friends, family) to follow Christ and they don’t. Why? Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.. If Jesus crossed the line to just get His man Saul /Paul , then something along the way happens to our free will . I don't think that God , Jesus , or the Holy Spirit made anyone accept Jesus as Savior . Not in the Old Testament and not in the New . Joyful One, it appears you’re saved. Your name was written down in the book of life before the foundation of the world. Where was your freewill choice to accept and have it written down at that time? God who knows all things past , present , and future knew Saul would have a change of heart and life ? I don't think God makes anyone do anything as in accepting his Son . I do believe that all the names of the saved are written in the Lambs book of life pre- foundation , but not because God makes anyone , but because God already knows how the future will play out and who will accept and who won't accept Jesus Christ ... In this manner of thinking (which is unbiblical) God makes salvation possible through His Son. The Son waits in heaven for your free will choice to happen. How could the rapture, or any end time event happen, or begin to happen, because He is waiting for your decision. In the mean time another child grows up and now God can’t begin the Tribulation because He must now wait for that child’s decision...and it goes on and on. When does God say enough? God wrote your name into the “book” because...1Jo 4:19 "We love him, because he first loved us." Not everyone. Us, His sheep!..I agree with you Mailmanguy that God does seek us out , but how we answer the question is up to us ...
Where’s that question in scripture?

Keep the questions coming...:wave
Guy

[Christ Rocks On]

Got this from a nifty website! :D:

http://www.raptureready.com/rr-second-chance.html


by Christine Peters

I would like to begin by stating that I am not telling people that they don't need salvation today. However, I am a realist, not an idealist. Reality dictates that after the rapture, people will be left behind because of their own unbelief, procrastination, or pride. The point of this article is not to reassure people that they can wait to believe in the Lord until after the Rapture happens. It is simply a look at what the scriptures have to say about salvation during the Tribulation. Those people 'lucky enough' to actually live through that time of wrath will have the opportunity to repent, but they also need to know that they will likely be martyred for their faith. It will be a long, hard road.

The foundation of our relationship with the Lord is faith, not proof. “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen” (Hebrews 11:1). The Lord asks us to have faith in Him, and to trust Him by faith alone. It is my belief that, by rapturing the church as He said He would, God is making one last attempt to prove His deity to those who resisted. God's purpose is ALWAYS redemption. While He IS removing the church to protect them from His wrath, He is also reaching out to a lost and dying world"

As described by Jesus in the book of Matthew, the Tribulation will be a time that has never been seen by this world and never will be seen again (24:21). The rapture, in itself, will be a major calamity unlike anything the world has ever seen. There is no guarantee that those who are unsaved at the time of that great event will live through it long enough to repent!

Lately, I have seen some differing opinions on the issue of salvation during the Tribulation. Some people believe that only the Jews in general will be saved. Others believe that only the 144,000 Jews mentioned in Revelation will be saved. Still others believe that no one will be saved during the Tribulation, however, I cannot find scriptural support for those positions and during my study on this topic, what I did find actually disproved all of these ideas.

Let’s take a look at what the Bible has to say about this issue. (All following emphases are mine.)


1. What does God want?

Malachi 3:6a For I [am] the LORD, I change not

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God is not an ever-changing God. He is now as He was and as He will be. It is His desire that all men come to salvation. These verses prove that His purpose is to redeem the lost. We can trust that does not change because of the rapture, but, rather, the rapture is because of that purpose.


2. Can people repent during the Tribulation?

Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Revelation 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Revelation 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

From these passages, we can see that mankind will be given the opportunity to repent during the Tribulation. These are but a few of the references found in Revelation that show repentance and the lack thereof during the Tribulation period. Therefore, we can be confidant that God's offer of salvation and forgiveness will still be available.


3. Who are the Tribulation Saints?

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7:13-14 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The people who repent and turn to God during the Tribulation are called the Tribulation Saints. First we see that they are a multitude from all nations, of all peoples and tongues. Therefore the Tribulation saints will not be limited to only the Jews or the 144,000. In addition, they will come out of the Great Tribulation, therefore they can not be the Old Testament saints or the Church. It is simply logical to believe that "the multitude that no man can number" are the people who turned to the Lord during the Tribulation."


4. What is the purpose of the two witnesses?

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

The purpose of the two witnesses is to preach the gospel to all the world during the Tribulation. The fact that the Lord has seen fit to send these two men to accomplish this further clarifies that there is the opportunity for repentance and salvation during the Tribulation.


5. Is there a point of no return?

Revelation 13:16-17 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Revelation 14:9-10 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

During the Tribulation, all people will be faced with a destiny-sealing choice. This is what is referred to as the "mark of the beast". Scripture indicates that it is tied to the economy, as no man will be able to buy or sell unless he accepts this mark. Additionally we can see that the mark represents the worship of the Antichrist and the acceptance of his reign on earth. Much speculation abounds about what this mark will be--ranging from a tattoo to a computer chip--but truth be told, until it is instituted, no one will know for sure what it will be. What is important to note here is that the acceptance of the mark will be a willful action and direct rejection of the Lord. The wrath of God will be poured out on those who accept this mark. This passage indicates that it will be hell on earth for those who accept this mark.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

This passage states that the Tribulation Saints who will be martyred for proclaiming the name of Christ will live and reign throughout the millennium. It also states that those who have taken the mark will not be a part of this group--their fate is determined as well. The distinction that the Lord is making here is that the mark will be a defining moment--the point of no return. Once this decision is made, fate is sealed for eternity.


6. Who will populate the Millennium?

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

At the end of the Tribulation when Christ returns to set up His millennial reign, the earth will be populated by those who believe in Him and survived the Tribulation.


7. Who is the restrainer?

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

This scripture shows that the Antichrist cannot rise to power or be revealed until the restrainer is taken out of the way. One prevalent theory holds that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer that will be taken away, thereby making salvation impossible. However, reading from the book of Joel, that theory is not acceptable.

Joel 2:28-29 And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

This passage shows us not that only will the Holy Spirit remain on the earth, but also that the Lord is now and will be willing then to forgive those who repent. The Holy Spirit is omnipresent and will remain with the believers throughout the Tribulation. Without His influence, no one would be able to be saved! The restrainer referred to by Paul in this letter to the Thessalonians is the workings of the Holy Spirit in the church.


8. What about the great delusion?

2Thessalonians 2:9-12 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Wow! Now there's some scary stuff. Paul is saying here that the Lord will send a great delusion to those who rejected His truth so that they will believe the lies of the Antichrist. Will those whose hearts are hardened to the message of salvation today still be hardened to it tomorrow? Romans 1:28 tells us that God is patient but He has his limits--He will turn over a stubborn person to a debased mind.

The big question here is, what truth did they receive? In other words, what did they know?

Let's take a look at five distinct representatives of society.

Case 1: This is an Orthodox Jew with an MBA from Yeshiva University (Jewish College). He knows all about Jesus, but from a historical perspective. He believes that Jesus was just a man that the Gentiles elevated to God status. Out of the blue, I asked him one day what he would think if the Messiah came and it turns out to have been Jesus all along. His response? "If he shows up with holes in his hands, I'm not buying it."

Case 2: This is a devout Muslim. He knows about Jesus, as Islam teaches that Jesus was one in a line of great prophets. Islam also teaches that Jesus (not Mohammed) will return at the end-of-days and gather the faithful to Allah. He also believes that Jesus was not God but, rather, just a man.

Case 3: This person knows the story as well. She is a scientist and rejects the need for God in her life. She can see the benefit for others, just not for herself.

Case 4: A former co-worker of mine is a self-proclaimed Druid. He outwardly rejects the notion of God altogether. He says he wants nothing to do with a God that will allow bad things to happen. Case closed; end of discussion. When his wife went into the hospital for surgery, he was asked “priest or rabbi” by the admitting nurse. He told her to, "bring me a bush to hug".

Case 5: This is the “all paths to God” person. This person believes that, just as the Lord confused the tongues at the tower of Babel, He also sent different messengers to different people at different times. Jesus, Buddha, and Mohammed are all a part of the Godhead as well as the coming Jewish Messiah, whose role it will be to wrap it all up into a nice neat little package. Two years ago, this described me. Sadly, this is also the fastest growing “religion” on the planet today, and is sweeping college campuses like a storm under the name Baha'i.

Assuming these cases are symbolic of the prevalent mentalities in the world today, and representative of people who do not come to repentance prior to the Tribulation, are they all damned? That sure is a lot of people now, isn't it?

No one knows what God's litmus test is regarding the “what did you really know about the gospel” question. During the Tribulation, He will send a deluding influence which will allow people to be tricked, but only if their hearts are hardened to the truth.

If you are reading this and the Rapture has already happened, do not be fooled! Earnestly pray and ask the Lord to show you the truth. Keep your heart open to the answer. If you honestly want to know, just ask Him and He'll tell you. Here is some additional information that will explain in greater detail.

So what's the bottom line?

This is why it is so important to come to faith in Jesus now. Better to be safe than sorry!

Trust me on this one--hedging your bet by waiting on the Rapture is a risky position to be in. I can assure you that you don't want to be driving down the highway being followed by an 18-wheeler driven by a born-again Christian when the Rapture happens. By the time you realize what hit you, it will be too late.

Are you really willing to gamble on the odds that you will live long enough to get a second chance?

[MailmanGuy]

Let’’s take a look at what the Bible has to say about this issue. (All following emphases are mine.)
1. What does God want?
Malachi 3:6a For I [am] the LORD, I change not
Agree.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Notice the us-ward...who is “us”? His sheep. His people. His elect.
God is not an ever-changing God. He is now as He was and as He will be. It is His desire that all men come to salvation. This is a common misreading into the previous verse. He is not willing that any of His people(us-ward) perish, therefore He waits patiently.
2. Can people repent during the Tribulation?
Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Revelation 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Revelation 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Notice they did not repent. They can’t! They’re spiritually dead. Proof of not having free will. If the bible says, “they repent not”...that’s a statement. Fact. Complete. Doesn’t mean that they could of repented Jesus said , “Heb 13:5... I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.” Does this imply He would? No.
3. Who are the Tribulation Saints? Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
That’s the raptured church “taken out”of Tribulation. The verse says their standing in front of the throne, not on earth, and in front of Jesus (lamb) while God deals with an earthly Israel.
The people who repent and turn to God during the Tribulation are called the Tribulation Saints. First we see that they are a multitude from all nations, of all peoples and tongues. Therefore the Tribulation saints will not be limited to only the Jews or the 144,000. In addition, they will come out of the Great Tribulation, therefore they can not be the Old Testament saints or the Church. It is simply logical to believe that "the multitude that no man can number" are the people who turned to the Lord during the Tribulation."
Completely wrong assumption, not in line with scripture. Sorry Christine, not attacking you, just the argument.

I don’t feel like going through the whole thing right now, but I hope my point is understood.:B:
Guy

[Christ Rocks On]

Originally posted by BarbT
Tragically, many will continue to reject the truth, this we know for sure. But where does the bible dogmatically say NOT ONE left behind person will change? :confused

Ours is the God of second chances, folks. :): Stubborn people who couldn't make up their minds about God before the Rapture will come to their senses after we are gone. These new Christians will be under a harsh system {I sure don't envy them}, without the Grace we now enjoy in this dispensation, but they WILL "endure the tribulation to the end". :thumb

I agree with you 100% BarbT. I believe the gift of salvation would still be offered to anyone and everyone during the triubulation (of couse once one takes the mark of the beast, forget it, they're doomed.) The Scriptures make it so plain.

[kgreen20]

They sure do!



Kathy G.