Pastor without "credentials"

[BaylorBrat]

Does someone have to be ordained or have "credentials" in order to be a Pastor? From what I can tell my friend Val (see my sig) is now her church's "Pastor". I love Val, she is a good friend, but she has NO seminary training, does not know Hebrew/Greek, and has never been ordained. (I'm not even going to get into the debate concerning female pastors . . . ) I am seriously concerned for those few sheep at her church, and I don't really know what to think of this situation.

[Willo]

Originally posted by BaylorBrat
Does someone have to be ordained or have "credentials" in order to be a Pastor? From what I can tell my friend Val (see my sig) is now her church's "Pastor". I love Val, she is a good friend, but she has NO seminary training, does not know Hebrew/Greek, and has never been ordained. (I'm not even going to get into the debate concerning female pastors . . . ) I am seriously concerned for those few sheep at her church, and I don't really know what to think of this situation.

Ordaination is just a denominations way of saying you are a pastor, it is up to the denomination if they ordain you without seminary training, as for the HEbrew/Greek bit, the majority of pastors today do not have to learn it.

[BaylorBrat]

Originally posted by Willo Ordaination is just a denominations way of saying you are a pastor, it is up to the denomination if they ordain you without seminary training,

:confused but who gives her the authority to be a Pastor of a flock?

as for the HEbrew/Greek bit, the majority of pastors today do not have to learn it.

That truely is scary.

BB
:(:

[Willo]

Originally posted by BaylorBrat
:confused but who gives her the authority to be a Pastor of a flock?

[B]

That truely is scary.

BB
:(:

The authority first must come from God, if she is not appointed by God to preach the gospel, then she is wrong.
But for ordaination in man's eyes, it comes from the denomination her church is affilated with, but the denomination should seek God in prayer before ordaining anyone.

It is not scary that pastors, don't know Hebrew, and Greek, as we now have things like, the English translation of the Bible, Strongs concordance, Vine's dictionary etc.

[BaylorBrat]

Originally posted by Willo The authority first must come from God, if she is not appointed by God to preach the gospel, then she is wrong. But for ordaination in man's eyes, it comes from the denomination her church is affilated with, but the denomination should seek God in prayer before ordaining anyone.

My concern is this. There have been a lot of cults and false doctrines that have sprang up over the centuries because individuals with little or no training declare themselves Pastors and lead many astray.

It is not scary that pastors, don't know Hebrew, and Greek, as we now have things like, the English translation of the Bible, Strongs concordance, Vine's dictionary etc.

Sure we have translations, but translations lose a lot of meaning of the original language. Concordances and dictionaries are useful as a supplemental tool, but (for a Pastor of a flock) these things can never replace knowledge of the original languages of the Scriptures. Again, IMO, if what you say is true, then it is very scary that pastors aren't being required to learn Hebrew/Greek.

[Willo]

Originally posted by BaylorBrat
My concern is this. There have been a lot of cults and false doctrines that have sprang up over the centuries because individuals with little or no training declare themselves Pastors and lead many astray.

[B]

Sure we have translations, but translations lose a lot of meaning of the original language. Concordances and dictionaries are useful as a supplemental tool, but (for a Pastor of a flock) these things can never replace knowledge of the original languages of the Scriptures. Again, IMO, if what you say is true, then it is very scary that pastors aren't being required to learn Hebrew/Greek.

It's not scary, I am in training to be a pastor, we pick up bits of Greek and Hebrew along the way, but we do not study it in depth.

If we have to keep running back to hebrew and greek, then we are not better off than we were, before Luther put forward his Sola Scripture (Scripture Only), one of the reason he done this was so that people did not have to go back to the orignal language everytime, If all pastors were required to know Greek/Hebrew, then there would be a shortage of pastors, as the majority of pastors today are from low income familes, and cannot afford to learn Greek/Hebrew.

It all comes down to "Has God called you to be a Pastor or Not?"

[BaylorBrat]

Originally posted by Willo It's not scary, I am in training to be a pastor, we pick up bits of Greek and Hebrew along the way, but we do not study it in depth.

May I ask you what denomination you are affiliated with?

Thanks,
BB

[scottruff]

FWIW, my two aunties ran their own church with one of them being "pastor." They were kooks!

[Willo]

I am apart of CLCI (Christian Life Churches International) which is the 2nd biggest pentecostal denomination in Australia

[Carlosabc]

I just have a few thoughts I’d like to chew on. First, in Neh. chapter 8, tells us of the first recorded preaching from a pulpit. Then it reveals a telling high position of any Pastor. It says: In verse 5 "And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people;) and when he opened it, all the people stood up"
It says that Ezra was “above all the people”. This is spiritual authority here. Does God ever allow a woman to be “above all the people” in Church settings? It never occurred in the Bible.
Does it occure today?

Another thought is this. 2 Tim 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth".
Can a woman who has authority over men ever be a “workman”? Has she studied? Is she approved by God? We don’t know. She has appointed herself to be above the people.

One more. Does she baptize new believers. If not, this is a shame. Can she baptize a heavyset man? What about baptisms during her menstruation? Would she be able? Is she able to be ready in season and out. Does she skip baptism?

These are my initial thoughts on this.

[KrispyKritter]

BaylorBrat.... you're Catholic, are you not? Without getting into my personal beliefs about the Catholic Church, let me say that it doesnt surprise me that you're hung up on ordinations and who is qualified to be a pastor.

If you look in the letters to Timothy and Titus you will see all there is pertaining to who is qualified to be an elder. The word pastor is only mentioned once, and the word is interchangable with the word elder. Outside of that, any other qualifications are man made. There is no mention of education or degrees, etc. Of course an elder has to be a student of the Word of God, but so should we all. If God puts a calling on a man, and he fits the qualifications (which he will, or God hasnt called him!) then he is fit to be an elder (pastor).

My personal belief is that a true pastor in the scriptural sense may not necessarily be a teacher. Paul makes a marked distinction in his writings between the two.

The Bible really is that simple.

[Jael]

Unfortunately, often the most "educated" ministers are also the most heretical...it was in a graduate theology class that I heard a professor say that clearly Mary was an immoral woman and Jesus was illegitimate - "but that doesn't detract from their message, which we can all learn from...":freaked The "Jesus Seminar" is made up of educated folks who don't believe the Bible...the leadership of the Episcopal church is very educated and they just decided it is fine to ordain an open homosexual as a bishop. Education is good and God uses educated people (Paul was certainly well-taught, for example), but it is not a Biblical prerequisite to serve as a pastor and it is no guarantee of pure doctrine.

1Cr 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

1Cr 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

1Cr 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

1Cr 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

It is God who calls and equips His children for service...down through the centuries and even today, there have been pastors in times and places where advanced education was not available - much more important than a degree is that the pastor be truly called and full of the Holy Spirit.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by Jael
It is God who calls and equips His children for service...down through the centuries and even today, there have been pastors in times and places where advanced education was not available - much more important than a degree is that the pastor be truly called and full of the Holy Spirit.

Just look at the underground church in China.

Higher Education is a western American luxery... Christianity is not an American faith.

[antsinmypants]

I would hope that any pastor or elder that is teaching would atleast have rudimentary Hebrew & Greek, just so that everyone is SURE they aren't being led astray.

Though the bible is in English, there are translation errors, and sometimes words don't carry over well into english.. but have much meaning in the Hebrew and Greek.

I've known more pastors/elders that have led astray because they didn't know how to do their research and know what the bible says -- than those who have credentials.

We must remember that the "preachers and teachers" of Bible times were reading directly from the Hebrew and Greek.. and sometimes even translating for their congregations-- as these were the only languages that the scriptures were in until the Roman Catholic Church got in swing.

[GloryBound]

Random thoughts:

A minister's education these days can be done entirely online. This was how my own pastor got his degree. He was on staff as an associate minister, and enrolled in a university using the online program. There were some actual classes held, but most of the work was online. During this period he was in the ministry, but UNDER a senior pastors authority.

There are even missionaries who go to the field, and get their education online while they are working. But they are considered to be a "missionary in training", not a full missionary, and are under someone's authority. And the education is tailored to the actual work they will be doing.

And as mentioned above, there are many options for education.

That said, I've known friends who went into the ministry INTENTIONALLY not getting an education, nor being at all interested in one. Thought it would "corrupt" them. Just wanted the"word" and nothing else. ( I don't know how greek and hebrew could corrupt anybody). They are the ones who tend to get swept up into every false doctrine that comes through town, including WOF.

So I think that an uneducated inexperienced person does not need to be a senior pastor.

[Jael]

Some of the most apostate denominations in this country are led by masters and doctors of divinity...education is great, very helpful...but knowing Jesus and His word is essential!

Jhn 7:15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?

Jhn 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.


Act 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus. :):

[GloryBound]

Originally posted by Jael
Some of the most apostate denominations in this country are led by masters and doctors of divinity...education is great, very helpful...but knowing Jesus and His word is essential!

Exactly, but that was the excuse my friends used for not getting educated. If the "educated" ministers were apostate, and they learned greek and hebrew, then greek and hebrew must be evil. Really poor logic.

[CrossLightMin]

:wave

If the Lord calls you.. answer and obey. He will ensure you that you are fully equipped to do the job He wants you to do.


His servant
stacie

[AnotherOldGuy]

For us good ole Baptists, pastors are not ordained by the denomination (convention). Pastors are ordained by a church. We do recognize the ordination of a pastor or deacon by another church. The local church selects its own pastor, rather than having one assigned.

[Ponderin]

[off topic alert]


AOG,

You are a Baptist?
:confused

Off topic, I know, but the only Baptist I know believe Jesus the Christ was fully God and fully man. But then, again I don't know all the baptist . . .

Do you believe in the Diety of Christ, fully God and fully man. Immanuel, God with us? A yes or no, for the sake of remaining on topic, will be fine for my notes, please. Thanks in advance.

[/resume topic]

[AnotherOldGuy]

Of course.

PM me why you would doubt.

[Brad MetalMan]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Just look at the underground church in China.

Higher Education is a western American luxery... Christianity is not an American faith.

You need some people to have higher education in all churches, even if the person who has it is say, a missionaryfrom the west who keeps in contact with the underground church in China.

I say this because I am in seminary and we have people from Russian, Kenya, Puerto Rico, and other 2nd and 3rd world areas that are there for their training. They get it because the church in their nation determined they needed someone in the leadership that has had seminary type training.

Now the Church of God (I go to the CoG seminary, so they are the example I am using) will never require seminary training for ordaination. It is helpful, and allows you to skip certain lower levels of minsterial recognition by the denomination, but not others. People can still become ordained without seminary training, it just takes longer.

This is for the purpose of accountability and integrity. I and imagine that a house church would to things differently, but they would still have an accountability system put in place to keep their leadership accountable.

[antsinmypants]

Even in Messianic settings where it is more like "house church" with accountability and elders rather than rabbis, those who are in the authority do know atleast one of the biblical languages.

I've worked extensively with other missionaries, mostly those in the areas where we have lived-- and every one of them went to seminary or is/was affiliated with "new tribes missions" -- and still learned the biblical languages. Not all went to Seminary.. but hands down- - all took Hebrew &/or Greek.

It helps a lot to have taken one or both.

[blitzkreig]

I recently read somewhere (and I can't remember where) that less than 1/2 of the preachers in the US were actually seminary trained.

[BaylorBrat]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter BaylorBrat.... you're Catholic, are you not? Without getting into my personal beliefs about the Catholic Church, let me say that it doesnt surprise me that you're hung up on ordinations and who is qualified to be a pastor.

Not RC yet. I'm headed in that direction, but I probably won't enter the Church this coming Easter. Something tells me to wait, and I have too much integrity to enter into something that I don't fully believe in.

If you look in the letters to Timothy and Titus you will see all there is pertaining to who is qualified to be an elder. The word pastor is only mentioned once, and the word is interchangable with the word elder. Outside of that, any other qualifications are man made. There is no mention of education or degrees, etc. Of course an elder has to be a student of the Word of God, but so should we all. If God puts a calling on a man, and he fits the qualifications (which he will, or God hasnt called him!) then he is fit to be an elder (pastor).

Again, my concern goes back to the false teachings, etc. The LDS was founded by a person with little or no theological training, and now look at how many souls are being led to hell because of Smith :(: How do I know that Val won't lead her flock astray???

My personal belief is that a true pastor in the scriptural sense may not necessarily be a teacher. Paul makes a marked distinction in his writings between the two.

Please elaborate on this.

Thanks,
BB

[KrispyKritter]

Ephesians 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ...

It would seem clear to me that tho someone can be both (and often times are)... that is not necessarily always the case. I've known several men who were great pastors (sheperds) and horrible teachers. And pastors who were great teachers and not good sheperds... they just werent a "people person".

I've met a TON of pastors who were horrible administrators too... many think that administration capabilities goes hand in hand w/pastoring too... and it doesnt necessarily. I work in the architectural/construction field... and you wanna see horrible pastor "administrators"??? Try designing and constructing a building for a church sometime. Pastors need to step away from building projects a lot of times, and let the professionals handle it.

But I'm getting off track here...

[filosofer]

Willo wrote:
If we have to keep running back to hebrew and greek, then we are not better off than we were, before Luther put forward his Sola Scripture (Scripture Only), one of the reason he done this was so that people did not have to go back to the orignal language everytime, If all pastors were required to know Greek/Hebrew, then there would be a shortage of pastors, ...
You have part of this correct. Luther wanted the people to be able to read Scripture in their own language; that's why he translated the Scriptures into German. But if you read further in Luther, you will find that he demands/expects/encourages every pastor to know the "languages," by which he means Hebrew, Greek, and Latin - as a minimum.

as the majority of pastors today are from low income familes, and cannot afford to learn Greek/Hebrew.
And your source for this? And the reason? I taught myself Greek before going to seminary - it cost me $30.00 (back in 1981) for the book. Cost has no bearing on learning the languages. And on my own I taught Greek and Hebrew for free to several men who eventually went to seminary.

KrispyKritter wrote:
My personal belief is that a true pastor in the scriptural sense may not necessarily be a teacher.

How do you understand Paul's qualification given in 1 Tim. 3:2 "... able to teach."


Ephesians 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ...

It would seem clear to me that tho someone can be both (and often times are)... that is not necessarily always the case.

While there is always discussion about this, given the context of the connecting particles in Greek "MEN..DE...DE..." and the definite articles, pastor/teacher is considered as one entity, not two.

But that's only the Greek, and according to some, that's not very important. ;)

---------


Tragically, I know pastors in my own denomination who had the Greek and Hebrew, but have not used it. What a waste! And sadly it shows in the work that many of them do.

[Willo]

Originally posted by filosofer


And your source for this? And the reason? I taught myself Greek before going to seminary - it cost me $30.00 (back in 1981) for the book. Cost has no bearing on learning the languages. And on my own I taught Greek and Hebrew for free to several men who eventually went to seminary.





My source is that I am in training to become a pastor, and the majority in Bible Colleges, are from low income families.

[antsinmypants]

Willo,

My dad and brother are "low income"... and yet they're attending the church (very small church) sponsored Seminary and were both learning Greek...

One can get books and teach themselves and THEN later go and be taught at seminary or by a university professor.

Way back when, the bible was only available in Greek and Hebrew, and those were both common languages.

Now days -- it's not really-- unless you are a serious bible student.

Trust me, it pays off.

[Willo]

While I do not study Greek or Hebrew, I have picked up heaps of words just by basic study

[elredcrow]

[
So I think that an uneducated inexperienced person does not need to be a senior pastor. [/B][/QUOTE]



Uh... wasn't Peter an uneducated inexperienced person? He was a fisherman I think. I don't know for sure not having studied the Hebrew and Greek... but the translations I have read said he was a fisherman. Please correct me if I am wrong.

(Sorry...i couldn't resist)

Elredcrow

[antsinmypants]

Unlearned means that they didn't go to a Yeshivah-- a seminary of sorts for people who were "wanna be" Rabbis.

That doesn't mean he didn't speak Greek, because obviously that was the trade language, and what the gospels were written in (other than aramaic or Hebrew)... it also doesn't say they didn't speak Aramaic, which was the language of the Galil and also Hebrew-- which was read and spoken every day in the synogogues.

As was the custom for men-- even the "uneducated" of the time-- they would go and read from the torah and study it-- for hours at a time, and sit and recite it over and over and over to themselves to memorize it.

It's very obvious that the disciples were very "learned" in their knowledge of the scriptures as they noticed things being fufilled or asked Messiah if other things that were prophesied were about to happen.

Yeshivah and the Pharisees/Sadducees idea of uneducated and ours is a bit of a different game.

[toddlemom]

Originally posted by BaylorBrat
Not RC yet. I'm headed in that direction, but I probably won't enter the Church this coming Easter. Something tells me to wait, and I have too much integrity to enter into something that I don't fully believe in.

[B]

Again, my concern goes back to the false teachings, etc. The LDS was founded by a person with little or no theological training, and now look at how many souls are being led to hell because of Smith :(: How do I know that Val won't lead her flock astray???

[B]


Thanks,
BB

I'll just jump in here ... it sounds to me like ... as a veteran of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship ... Val could well be qualified ot lead a small group Bible study. As a lay person. We would never call that a church, however. IVCF always called itself a para-church organization.

My question would be, is Val accountable to someone or being mentored by someone more mature in the faith? If she's not willing to be in that kind of relationship ... hmmm :confused ... because anyone who claims to have all the answers, and they don't need to be accountable, you have to be a little skeptical of.

(Sorry that's ungrammatical ...)

Finally, one more little tangent ... BB, I admire your integrity about waiting to join the RCC if you are not 100 percent behind it.

YSIC
Ann

[Rom831]

Let me ask, what credentials did Peter have? From where was his degree? How many languages could he read?

Acts 4:13
Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus.

Peter wasn't educated, he was a fisherman. Right there we see he and John were 'uneducated and untrained'. Does that make them any less of a preacher? No.

1 Peter 2:5
you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.


1 Peter 2:9
But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Who are to be priests? ALL of us, ordained by a manmade school or not. It is by God we are sent, not a school.

Bless...ArtS

[antsinmypants]

Art, you're missing what I said.

Their "unlearned" and "untrained" is much different from ours.

Men, even the "unlearned and untrained" spent hours a week in the synogogues reading the Scriptures.

Even the "Unlearned and untrained" -- especially fishermen spoke atleast Hebrew and Greek. Considering these men were from the Galilee area, they also spoke Aramaic, because that is the local language.

The could atleast write in Hebrew-- maybe some in Greek-- due to the fact that boys were schooled from age 3 to 13 At the least, even in the poorest communities.

To be "learned" you continued from thirteen to the age of "rav" which is 40.

If you didn't-- you were considered "Unlearned".


Again.. One more reason we all need to go and investigate and understand the culture, history and times.

[Rom831]

There is no indication Peter did any of that. He was a fisherman, to survive, he'd need to be fishing. We don't see him having knowledge of other languages in fact, we see that after pentacost he and the others spoke in languages that were not familure to them.

The priesthood is for ALL believers. We are told to ALL go into the world and spread God's word. We are ALL told to go and preach the kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 10:7), to preach the gospel (Mark 16:15), teaching them to obey God (Matthew 28:16-20). Its not just those that have gone through seminary who have this command.

Bless...ArtS

[Xtreme]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BaylorBrat
Not RC yet. I'm headed in that direction, but I probably won't enter the Church this coming Easter. Something tells me to wait, and I have too much integrity to enter into something that I don't fully believe in.

why risk it? don't you see the irony here? you're worried about your friend leading people astray / false teachings and whatnot... yet you're contemplating becoming a catholic? avoid the RCC at all costs. why get caught up in pagan rituals when you can simply worship God and fellowship with other believers?

[antsinmypants]

Art, there is history to support that fact.

Fishermen and all "unlearned" didn't start learning a trade until they were 13, and out of the local schools. Even the poorest of the poor sent their kids (sons) to the local synogogue to learn the bible. When the kid hits 13 or 16, then he starts learning a trade.. and if the father can afford it, he also continues his son's education in the Yeshiva.

If you don't believe me- Pick up a book by Alfred Edersheim or Josephus (E-sword even has it on there) or history book on Judaea.

Where the people lived in Galilee, one of the reasons they were hated is because they spoke Greek and had no qualms about doing business with people who weren't Yisraeli.. as long as they made their money. Aramaic was the local language, Hebrew was the language at the Synogogues and throughout Yisrael.

For them to have functioned in society, Aramaic and Hebrew was a must. Greek was standard in Galilee, but not the rest of Israel-- and it was really really bad if you were someone like a tax collector because you had gone and wasted your time in Yeshiva and then gone to learn Latin and buddied up with the Roman Empire.

Again.. this is why history and language study is so crucial.

The Apostolic letters were written in Koine Greek.
The Gospels were written after much of the Apostolic Letters, and were circulated in Koine Greek, one was in Aramaic, possibly two- and more than likely in Hebrew as well.
The scriptures that were in the day were in Hebrew, Aramaic and in Koine Greek.

People in the Galilee area would have the choice of hearing in Synogogue Hebrew or Greek, depending on their area.

Pharasaic Judaism was very much a prostelyzing bunch-- and they made sure there was a synogogue everywhere they went in the Roman and Greek Empires.. thereby circulating the known scriptures (Hebrew and Greek) there, and those who were Hebrew by birth were schooled just as they were in Israel, depending on how much money the fathers made.. even for the tradesmen.

I find it interesting that Hosea 4 was prophesied during a time that the Yisraelis were lax on sending their kids to learn, or even going to synogogue or Temple themselves: "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee . . . seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children."

:wave

P.S. even for the "unlearned" of the USA and Canada, up until about the 1920s, kids were atleast learning Latin and one other Bible language, without going to Seminary-- even with the poor kids in the one room schoolhouses.

Yes, we are all called.. but it is very diligent and expedient of us to learn atleast one biblical language to make sure we do have things right.

Anyone can be a missionary, but it takes REALLY knowing your bible to expound and preach on it.

[GloryBound]

Ants is right. The disciples knew the biblical languages.

And you are forgetting that the disciples spent THREE FULL YEARS in training with the best professor EVER - The Lord Jesus Christ himself. How in the world can anyone who has spent three years like that come out of it uneducated and inexperienced?

[antsinmypants]

Amein Glory!

Imagine that.. How awesome it is to have Y'shua, who told the prophets what to write... teaching you the scriptures! :):

[skylark]

Does someone have to be ordained or have "credentials" in order to be a Pastor?

How is a pastor ordained in your denomination? Also how is being ordained different than graduating from seminary? This topic came up in conversation, and I honestly do not know the answers. I would appreciate any thoughts.

[Rom831]

Sorry, I disagree. The scriptures command us ALL to preach to the world and be a part of the priesthood of believers. It tells us ALL to teach, rebuke, encourage, etc. It tells us ALL to go into the world and all nations doing so. It does NOT say it to only those who have taken other languages or gone to seminary. That comes from the power hungry, man made orginization of the church who wants to lord their supperiority over God's people.

To all disciples, whom are ALL who follow Christ, do not listen. YOU DO have a ministry, you are in it every moment of your life. Scripture is very clear that WE are ALL to preach, even if we have no fancy piece of paper in a fram on our wall. Jesus gave us many ways we are to live, but only one command to do and that is to "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. "

Bless...ArtS

P.S. I am NOT saying not to study the word first and just go blindly. But nonetheless, we are ALL to go.

[antsinmypants]

it usually depends on the denomination.

For most baptists (yes I know this is a broad stroke, but this is my background) one must go to seminary or a bible college, or the local church's sponsored "seminary" to get credentials to be an ordained minister.

In some states, all you need is a certificate from the state (Like in South Carolina and Alabama) saying you are ordained to marry someone... and some people go so far to say that is all you need to be a pastor.

With some AOG & COG, the congregations have you go through alot of training in the ministry with the elders, and study before they ordain you.. including bible language study... but not always.

It is a valid question- and asking your pastor or your denomination's representative (organization) you will find out more.

Most Messianic congregations want someone who's been to Seminary or a Messianic Yeshiva (kinda the same idea) or a Christian College that has been through the studies and bible language training and been ordained that way-- before they'll consider you.

Some, not all - even tell you that you can be a speaker, but you aren't qualified to be a minister (per bible mandates) until you are about 40-50 years old (the age one is when they are considered an elder), and we have seen whether or not your children have obeyed their parents, and that their children are being brought up on the same principles.. thereby also the principle of you being married comes into play. This also was an accepted way back from the time of Moses on to the time of Y'shua.

I sincerely suggest you ask your pastor and the local congregations around you, just so you know. :wave

[antsinmypants]

Originally posted by Rom831
Sorry, I disagree. The scriptures command us ALL to preach to the world and be a part of the priesthood of believers. It tells us ALL to teach, rebuke, encourage, etc. It tells us ALL to go into the world and all nations doing so. It does NOT say it to only those who have taken other languages or gone to seminary. That comes from the power hungry, man made orginization of the church who wants to lord their supperiority over God's people.

Hello?

Neither Glorybound nor I said one cannot teach or exhort. But it is up to us to be bereans and learn what the bible says..
Seminary is an added bonus.

One can learn these things in their own home, like Filosofer said he did.

But, Again, according to history-- these people knew the scriptures front to back in Hebrew or Greek. Those are the two biblical languages. That was in turn translated by the RCC into Latin.. which is also an accepted "biblical language".

Even laymen go to school to learn the languages for their own benefit.

Art, I used to knee jerk about this until I saw the benefits for myself. I've been able to uncover and see unbiblical teachings better by learning the original languages and studying that way.

If you don't like it, ok agree to disagree, but don't sow discord when you disagree. We ALL Need to learn history and it would benefit us ALL to learn the languages.

Doesn't mean you have to go to a Yeshiva or a Bible College or a Seminary.

You can learn in your own home or in your own congregation.
That's what my brother and dad were doing..!!

That's what my grandfather did!

My grandfather is 75 and has learned some Hebrew, greek and "Chaldee"-- and it has greatly benefited his studies and he's been a teacher in different congregations since my mom was a small child.

Again, Even in US and Canadian History, people were learning biblical languages in GRADE SCHOOL/HIGH SCHOOL -- until the 1920s-1940s.

Please read up on Edersheim and Josephus. It would help you.

[skylark]

So, for some ordination=graduation from seminary? Or are they two separate things? I can ask my pastor, but I would like to know for other denominations as well.

[Ynott]

I wish that we would start a "Saturday" (or any other day of the week) school for Christians (like the Jews have....like the Japanese have....like the muslims have) to TEACH our children about the Christian culture, belief system and LANGUAGES (Greek, Hebrew).

How much better off we'd all be! So much less likely to fall for the first "smooth talker" that comes in. So much better able to defend the faith and preach it to the world.

That should be for EVERY believer.

I sure wish we did that.

[antsinmypants]

Amein Ynott.

Some of the local Jewish congregations (not just Messianic) do offer Hebrew in their synogogues on Sundays (since you can't buy or sell on Shabbat) so that people can come and learn Hebrew.

Some of the Messianic congregations are offering Hebrew during their Shabbat Bible Studies or on other days of the week (same reason as any congregation worshipping on Shabbat -- no money changing).

It would be awesome if we went back to the way it was so our kids and adults knew things better, and could be stronger in the L-rd.

Some colleges, seminaries and Yeshivas offer classes at a time.. (and some at night).

I think some are listed in the phone book and in your local newspaper's Sunday edition...

[CamelPower]

Baylor Brat, et al.:

I've been blessed most of my Christian life to have had good men, trained or affiliated with Dallas Bible College or Dallas Theological Seminary, in leadership roles. I presently attend a brethren assembly, with functioning elders in charge. These men teach on Sundays, perform weddings, funerals, etc. All of them are skilled in God's Word, but one is a doctor, another a building contractor, and third a craftsman/realtor.

I look at WHERE the leadership is trained, not how MUCH training the leaders have. Dallas is an outstanding Rapture ready institution.

[BaylorBrat]

Skylark,

Seminary graduation does not equal ordination-at least in the autonomous Southern Baptist church that I grew up in ;):. Seminary graduation is just that-you did your academic work and your awarded your diploma in a graduation ceremony. Ordination is a ceremony that usually takes place in a church.

In Catholicism priests are ordained by the bishop after years of seminary training.

antsinmypants,

You have been doing an excellent job! :thumb

BB
:wave

[filosofer]

Seminary graduation is just that-you did your academic work and your awarded your diploma in a graduation ceremony. Ordination is a ceremony that usually takes place in a church.

In the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS), it is similar. Seminary education means that you have studied Greek and Hebrew, taken four years of Biblical studies, including one year of internship, and are eligible for a call as a pastor. Ordination is a ceremony that publicly recognizes the fact that a congregation has called this man to be pastor of the congregation.

Note: In the ELCA, the area bishop assigns pastors to congregations.

[Brad MetalMan]

Originally posted by antsinmypants
it usually depends on the denomination.

With some AOG & COG, the congregations have you go through alot of training in the ministry with the elders, and study before they ordain you.. including bible language study... but not always.

It is a valid question- and asking your pastor or your denomination's representative (organization) you will find out more.

I am a member of the AoG and attend the CoG Seminary in Cleveland, Tn. The AoG system of credentialing is as follows. Each district within the AoG ordains its own ministers. There are three levels of ministerial recognition.

They are exhorter, licensed/special licensed and ordained.

Exhorter is the lowest level. This means that you are eligible to do ministry in the district that has given you this level of recognition, or that the candidate has made a committment into going into full time ministry recognized by the church. Those who have no seminary or Bible college training start here.

Exhorters are in the ministry but cannot perform weddings and funerals or other ministerial functions that are also legal fuctions of the state.

A person who holds their exhorter license for two years in the ministry then becomes eligible to take tests to obtain the licensed level of ministry. Upon taking and passing the tests which are designed to show the candidate has a certain level of Biblical and theological knowledge, and sound doctrine, they become licensed. At this time they can perform weddings and funerals.

A person who obtains a degree from a Bible college or seminary automatically can enter the ministry at the licensed level, skipped the exhorter level.

After serving for two years at the licensed level, the minister is again in a position to take tests for ordaination. If they pass and show they are conpentent to hold the ordained level of ministry, then this ministerial recognition is rewarded.

Going to Bible college or seminary takes the person to the next level of ministry. If someone who was licensed went to seminary, they would be able to obtain ordaination upon gradation.

This system makes education helpful in furthering the person in ministry but not necessary to be in the ministry.

[Elizabeth_S]

Originally posted by Xtreme
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BaylorBrat
Not RC yet. I'm headed in that direction, but I probably won't enter the Church this coming Easter. Something tells me to wait, and I have too much integrity to enter into something that I don't fully believe in.

why risk it? don't you see the irony here? you're worried about your friend leading people astray / false teachings and whatnot... yet you're contemplating becoming a catholic? avoid the RCC at all costs. why get caught up in pagan rituals when you can simply worship God and fellowship with other believers?


The opening post is the typical Catholic challenge to try and show the rest of us heathens to be unworthy to even open the bible, let alone think we can show others the truth from the pages of God's Word with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

[rs41]

Originally posted by BaylorBrat
My concern is this. There have been a lot of cults and false doctrines that have sprang up over the centuries because individuals with little or no training declare themselves Pastors and lead many astray.

[B]

Sure we have translations, but translations lose a lot of meaning of the original language. Concordances and dictionaries are useful as a supplemental tool, but (for a Pastor of a flock) these things can never replace knowledge of the original languages of the Scriptures. Again, IMO, if what you say is true, then it is very scary that pastors aren't being required to learn Hebrew/Greek. That opinion is a bit legalistic in my opinion. I preach occassionally, but I am not a pastor. I have a friend who is a pastor and he doesn't know Hebrew or Greek but he knows how to look things up and he is a gifted pastor

[antsinmypants]

RS, you may think it's legalistic, but legalism is adding something -- a work-- to salvation.

This isn't that.

It's asking your pastor to be qualified as he should be.

Though Strongs is good.. it's not the best for research. It's better to have a base in Hebrew and Greek and work from there.

Like it has been said, English and other language translations are good, but they don't always carry the full weight of the message.

The people of the Apostolic Era were people who read either Hebrew or Greek, sometimes both. The scriptures (OT) and the Apostolic Letters were in one or the other.. and were very understandable.

A pastor has to be able to be a true berean and know what he's teaching and preaching, because he is liable for his flock.

:wave

[CrossLightMin]

:wave


Ignorance exposed...



which is best to start with... greek or hebrew? and please... don't say both...



His servant
stacie

[antsinmypants]

Whichever G-d leads you to study first.
I say Hebrew, because that is where the Scripture starts..

[rs41]

Originally posted by antsinmypants
RS, you may think it's legalistic, but legalism is adding something -- a work-- to salvation.

This isn't that.

It's asking your pastor to be qualified as he should be.

Though Strongs is good.. it's not the best for research. It's better to have a base in Hebrew and Greek and work from there.

Like it has been said, English and other language translations are good, but they don't always carry the full weight of the message.

The people of the Apostolic Era were people who read either Hebrew or Greek, sometimes both. The scriptures (OT) and the Apostolic Letters were in one or the other.. and were very understandable.

A pastor has to be able to be a true berean and know what he's teaching and preaching, because he is liable for his flock.

:wave Then I suppose we will have to agree to disagree then. :): Have a wonderful Christ filled Christmas.

[antsinmypants]

then disagree we must.

Happy Chanukkah :):