Annihilation

[Lonewolf7]

I wanted to start this thread so as to concentrate on this specific area......... you and I.


You said.....
I have never said that the unsaved were annihilated at any point before the Great White Throne Judgment. Its clear that ALL the dead (saved and unsaved) will be present for that Judgment.
Where I disagree with you is what happens AFTER the Judgment.
-------------------------------
My contention is that there isnt any clear Scriptural support for the idea of the unrighteous dead as 'Eternally Tormented'. That is, after the Great White Throne Judgment has occurred.
------------------------------------
However, I DO most certainly agree that the unsaved untimately WILL be cast into the Lake of Fire after the Great White Throne Judgment.
------------------------------
The actual method of punishment is certainly executed in the Eternal Fire, but the end result (whether the punishment is completed or on-going) isnt specified.



You and I do not agree because you think the wicked are annihilated and I say they are eternally tormented 'because' they can't ever perish.


Acts 24:15
..... there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
1 Corinthians 15
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body..... it is raised imperishable;


Annihilation can't happen to bodies that are 'imperishable', therefore it must be eternal torment instead of annihilation.

Annihilation
\An*ni`hi*la"tion\, n. [Cf. F. annihilation.] 1. The act of reducing to nothing, or nonexistence;

Imperishable
\Im*per"ish*a*ble\, a. [Pref. im- not + perishable: cf. F. imp['e]rissable.] Not perishable; not subject to decay; indestructible; enduring permanently;


Will you please answer this.....so that we can finish this.
:):

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by Lonewolf7
You and I do not agree because you think the wicked are annihilated For the record... I never proposed that. You put those words in my mouth.


Originally posted by Lonewolf7
...and I say they are eternally tormented 'because' they can't ever perish.

Acts 24:15
..... there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
1 Corinthians 15
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body..... it is raised imperishable; 1Co 15:42 So3779 also2532 is the3588 resurrection386 of the3588 dead.3498 It is sown4687 in1722 corruption;5356 it is raised1453 in1722 incorruption:861

G861
ἀφθαρσία
aphtharsia
af-thar-see'-ah
From G862; incorruptibility; generally unending existence; (figuratively) genuineness: - immortality, incorruption, sincerity.[/b] Imperishable = Incorruptable. Check.


Originally posted by Lonewolf7
Annihilation can't happen to bodies that are 'imperishable', therefore it must be eternal torment instead of annihilation. That is an assumption.

You are making 'Imperishable' to mean 'Indestructable'. I dare say that God can 'destruct' your 'imperishable' body if he wants to.

However, that is all a bit beside the point seeing how I never said that the 'untormented' in the Lake of Fire were 'annihilated', though I do agree that is one of the more sensible possible ooutcomes.

I said that there is no Scriptural support for them (with certain specific exceptions) being 'Eternally Tormented'. They are described as being 'Punished'. The form of that punishment is not clearly stated, and could indeed include annihilation and other 'non-tormented eternally' outcomes.

[savedandhappy1]

Lonewolf7 and Hootman,

I have to thank you for making an effort to not cause hard feeling, and settle this. I think that is what Jesus would want us all to do.
Thank you for showing the way we are supposed to act.:thumb


Love in Christ,
Kathy


P.S. Not wanting to high jack this thread just wanted to thank you.

[Hootmon]

Thanks, Kathy. :):

Its all about finding the Truth, and not assuming that we already possess it in its entirety.

[Lonewolf7]

Thanks Hootman

You still confuse me though......


1Co 15:42 So3779 also2532 is the3588 resurrection386 of the3588 dead.3498 It is sown4687 in1722 corruption;5356 it is raised1453 in1722 incorruption:861

G861
ἀφθαρσία
aphtharsia
af-thar-see'-ah
From G862; incorruptibility; generally unending existence; (figuratively) genuineness: - immortality, incorruption, sincerity.[/b]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Imperishable = Incorruptable. Check.

You are making 'Imperishable' to mean 'Indestructable'. I dare say that God can 'destruct' your 'imperishable' body if he wants to.



If I may.....

Imperishable = Incorruptable = unending existence = immortality. Check.

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by Lonewolf7
If I may.....

Imperishable = Incorruptable = unending existence = immortality. Check. Until/unless God intervenes, something like a Judgment perhaps, I dont disagree.

You are still left with needing to explain why different words with different meanings are used if all are treated the same though.

[Lonewolf7]

Originally posted by Hootmon

You are still left with needing to explain why different words with different meanings are used if all are treated the same though.


I don't think that all will be treated the same for eternity....... as some will get it far worse than others.

I am just making the point that it will be forever and ever and ever.....

Luke 12
47"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.


Anyway....thank you for answering my questions...specifically.:wave

[icebear]

checks......Chex.....Chex mix


http://content.clearchannel.com/Photos/food/chex_mix.jpg

:nod







....and icebear's train of thought rumbles onward.......

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by Lonewolf7
I don't think that all will be treated the same for eternity....... as some will get it far worse than others.So not all are treated the same.


Originally posted by Lonewolf7
I am just making the point that it will be forever and ever and ever..... That would be your opinion. I know.

[Lonewolf7]

Originally posted by Hootmon

That would be your opinion. I know.

Hootman please forgive me but may I remind you of your words

I 'want' nothing more or less than the Truth.
Its a matter of what Scripture SAYS and Scripture does NOT say.
Im not changing what the words MEAN, and Im basing my arguements on what the words SAY,


I know that you think it is my opinion....but that is what scripture says.......it indicates forever. That is what I based my argument on.


Actually....your bible tool did the work for me. I like that thing, will you show me where and how to use it??

1Co 15:42 So3779 also2532 is the3588 resurrection386 of the3588 dead.3498 It is sown4687 in1722 corruption;5356 it is raised1453 in1722 incorruption:861

G861
ἀφθαρσία
aphtharsia
af-thar-see'-ah
From G862; incorruptibility; generally unending existence; (figuratively) genuineness: - immortality, incorruption, sincerity


If you would show me.....I will buy you a coke and a candy bar
:B:

Thank you Hootman!!!:):

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by Lonewolf7
I know that you think it is my opinion....but that is what scripture says.......it indicates forever. That is what I based my argument on. I dispute the 'eternal torment' concept. Not the 'forever' concept.

The specific punishment isnt clearly stated except for the Devil, Beast, False Prophet and takers of the Mark. In those specific cases the specific penalty IS 'eternal torment'. That is clearly stated.

Just because the bodies are raise 'imperishable' does not mean they cant be destroyed as part of the 'punishment'. Im not saying they necessarily are destroyed, but Im not ruling it out as an option as you seem to be.


Originally posted by Lonewolf7
Actually....your bible tool did the work for me. I like that thing, will you show me where and how to use it?? E-Sword (http://www.e-sword.net). Highly recommended.

[Lonewolf7]

Originally posted by Hootmon
I dispute the 'eternal torment' concept. Not the 'forever' concept.


E-Sword (http://www.e-sword.net). Highly recommended.

Hootman

btw...thank you for the link....:): .....now down to business.

I wonder why....beyond just the meaning of the words....do you seem to have a problem with eternal torment of the lost??

Hebrews 10:29
How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?


It is not like .......they don't deserve it!!!

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by Lonewolf7
I wonder why....beyond just the meaning of the words....do you seem to have a problem with eternal torment of the lost?? I have a 'problem' with it because Scripture doesnt actually SAY it. If it were clearly stated, then we wouldnt be having this discussion.

The reason I even began studying the issue was because of the Athiest appologetic technique of saying 'How can you say God is merciful if he torments people forever for simple unbelief'. Its a good question that deserves a good answer.

The more i looked into it, the more it became apparant to me that Scripture teaches that the unrighteous will be punished, but that the actual form of that punishment was not clearly stated with a few exceptions.

I hope that makes sense.


Originally posted by Lonewolf7
It is not like .......they don't deserve it!!! Whether or not they deserve it is not up to you and me. Praise God.

If it were, we would all be condemned.

[Lonewolf7]

Originally posted by Hootmon

E-Sword (http://www.e-sword.net). Highly recommended.

Thank you Hootman....you rule!!!!!


http://www.pac-it.org.nz/images/coke_bottle.jpg http://www.mce.k12tn.net/chocolate/history/snickers.jpg :nod

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by Lonewolf7
Thank you Hootman....you rule!!!!!


http://www.pac-it.org.nz/images/coke_bottle.jpg http://www.mce.k12tn.net/chocolate/history/snickers.jpg :nod http://www.terranuts.com/forums/images/smilies/beerchug.gif

[kerri]

Thinking this needs to be reiterated:

imperishable

\Im*per"ish*a*ble\, a. [Pref. im- not + perishable: cf. F. imp['e]rissable.] Not perishable; not subject to decay; indestructible; enduring permanently; as, an imperishable monument; imperishable renown. -- Im*per\"ish*a*ble*ness, n. -- Im*per\"ish*a*bly, adv.


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.


things we DO know through Scripture:

1. Spiritual death=seperation from God- which is eternal without having chosen Christ.
2. The ressurected bodies of the dead will be imperishable.
3. At the White Throne Judgement, there will be books brought forth- books of their actions in life and and the book of life.... and men will be judged according to what is recorded in the books- (good and bad).
4. God is just, whatever His judgment will be for their actions in life- it will be just.
5. If anyone's name is not found written in the book of life, they will be thrown into the lake of fire.
6. The lake of fire is eternal.
7. When the rich man was awaiting judgment in hades, he was in torments already- even pre White throne....before his judgement, he was placed there based on the state of his soul being seperated from God, to await judgement of his actions on earth.


this facts don't seem to be a prescription for annhiliation, no matter how I look at it. To me it would seem that even after the punishment is meted out (and even before)- the eternal state of seperation in the lake of fire (or in hades for those awaiting judgement) is torment in and of itself.

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by kerri
1. Spiritual death=seperation from God- which is eternal without having chosen Christ. Agreed.

Originally posted by kerri
2. The ressurected bodies of the dead will be imperishable. Agreed.

Originally posted by kerri
3. At the White Throne Judgement, there will be books brought forth- books of their actions in life and and the book of life.... and men will be judged according to what is recorded in the books- (good and bad). Agreed.

Originally posted by kerri
4. God is just, whatever His judgment will be for their actions in life- it will be just. Agreed.

Originally posted by kerri
5. If anyone's name is not found written in the book of life, they will be thrown into the lake of fire. Agreed.

Originally posted by kerri
6. The lake of fire is eternal. Agreed.

Originally posted by kerri
7. When the rich man was awaiting judgment in hades, he was in torments already- even pre White throne. Hades is thrown into the Lake of Fire. They are not the same thing.

Lazarus and the Rich Man will both be Judged at the Great White Throne Judgement. Just like the rest of us.

Originally posted by kerri
this facts don't seem to be a prescription for annhiliation, no matter how I look at it. Im not prescribing annihilation. Im just not ruling it out.

[kerri]

Originally posted by Hootmon
Hades is thrown into the Lake of Fire. They are not the same thing.


I never said they were. But both are places that hold unbelievers at one time or another based soley on the state of seperation from God (this is besides what the punishment entails).


Lazarus and the Rich Man will both be Judged at the Great White Throne Judgement. Just like the rest of us.


The rich man will, however Lazarus will already be raised 1000 years prior and given his rewards- His name appears in the book of life, so his sins were already paid for in full.


Im not prescribing annihilation. Im just not ruling it out.

I'm just not seeing where it can even be thought of as a possibility, if we look at what we do know from Scripture.

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by kerri
I never said they were. But both are places that hold unbelievers at one time or another based soley on the state of seperation from God (this is besides what the punishment entails). Agreed.


Originally posted by kerri
The rich man will, however Lazarus will already be raised 1000 years prior and given his rewards- His name appears in the book of life, so his sins were already paid for in full. Hmm... I think you are correct about that, though I dont see how it effects the fate of the Rich Man.


Originally posted by kerri
I'm just not seeing where it can even be thought of as a possibility, if we look at what we do know from Scripture. Im not seeing where it can be ruled out as a possibility. Seeing how 'eternal torment' is specifically applied to a certain sub-group of consignees to the Lake of Fire.

[blitzkreig]

Originally posted by Hootmon
Im not seeing where it can be ruled out as a possibility. Seeing how 'eternal torment' is specifically applied to a certain sub-group of consignees to the Lake of Fire. The sub-group being "goats"?

Mat 25:31-46
(31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
(33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
(34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
(35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
(36) Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
(37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
(38) When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
(39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
(40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
(43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
(44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
(45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

[kerri]

Originally posted by Hootmon
Agreed.


Hmm... I think you are correct about that, though I dont see how it effects the fate of the Rich Man.


Im not seeing where it can be ruled out as a possibility. Seeing how 'eternal torment' is specifically applied to a certain sub-group of consignees to the Lake of Fire.

what is your take on the rich man already being in torments even prior to judgement and his subsequent punishment?

and all of the facts as a whole in light of the fact that ressurected bodies are imperishable (which you agreed with)?

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by blitzkreig
The sub-group being "goats"? The sub-group being those specifically stated as being 'eternally tormented'. The Devil, Beast, False Prophet and takers of the Mark.

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by kerri
what is your take on the rich man already being in torments even prior to judgement and his subsequent punishment? Im not sure what you are asking me here.


Originally posted by kerri
and all of the facts as a whole in light of the fact that ressurected bodies are imperishable (which you agreed with)? Just because they are 'imperishable' doesnt mean they are necessarily 'indestructable'.

[kerri]

Originally posted by Hootmon
Im not sure what you are asking me here.


I'm asking what you think about the fact that the state of seperation itself, aside from punishment meted out for actions, is indeed tormentful as described in the rich man account.

How does this affect the overall picture of the state of the unbeliever post judgement?

IOW, I want to know your thoughts.


Just because they are 'imperishable' doesnt mean they are necessarily 'indestructable'.

Please explain how an imperishable body can perish. Annihilation does mean to become extinguished- perish.

And if it does perish at some point- then why does God clearly state in scripture that its imperishable?

wouldnt this be contradictory?

[kerri]

Originally posted by Hootmon
The sub-group being those specifically stated as being 'eternally tormented'. The Devil, Beast, False Prophet and takers of the Mark.

you seem to be hung up on two words... imperishable and torment...

Semantics, IMO, often falls under "twisting the scriptures".

I know thats not your intent, but that doesn't mean thats not whats happening.

Why in your opinion was the rich man in already in torments (pre judgement), if you believe Scripture only states that the Devil, Beast, False Prophet and takers of the Mark are the only ones who suffer eternal torment?

[B A N E]

Is the problem that folks are having with what Hootmon is saying.

Scripture is NOT explicit about eternal torment for all the lost.
Scripture is explicit about eternal torment for some.

IMO, That's what Hootmon is saying.

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by B A N E
Is the problem that folks are having with what Hootmon is saying.

Scripture is NOT explicit about eternal torment for all the lost.
Scripture is explicit about eternal torment for some.

IMO, That's what Hootmon is saying. :nod
That would be a fair summary.

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by kerri
I'm asking what you think about the fact that the state of seperation itself, aside from punishment meted out for actions, is indeed tormentful as described in the rich man account. The Rich Man does indeed seem to be in substantial discomfort.


Originally posted by kerri
How does this affect the overall picture of the state of the unbeliever post judgement? Im not sure, because Scripture doesnt specifically tell us what will happen to people such as him post judgment. That has sort of been my point through all of this.

I can tell you this much with certainty though. The Rich Man's 'torment' at his present location will have an ending. It will end at the Great White Throne Judgment where a new (possibly different) sentence will be applied in the Lake of Fire.


Originally posted by kerri
Please explain how an imperishable body can perish. Annihilation does mean to become extinguished- perish.

And if it does perish at some point- then why does God clearly state in scripture that its imperishable?

wouldnt this be contradictory? Obviously something that is 'imperishable' wont perish. By definition.

However, it could be destroyed (burned to ashes like Sodom and Gomorrah) by God if that were to be the proper punishment.

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by kerri
you seem to be hung up on two words... imperishable and torment... Im not the one who is hung up on 'imperishable'. People keep wanting to make it mean 'indestructable' as if God couldnt destroy what he had made.

As far as 'torment' is concerned... I am hung up on that one because people want to apply it to situations that arent supported in Scripture.


Originally posted by kerri
Why in your opinion was the rich man in already in torments (pre judgement), if you believe Scripture only states that the Devil, Beast, False Prophet and takers of the Mark are the only ones who suffer eternal torment? Because the Rich Man's current 'torment' is NOT eternal. It has an END; at the Great White Throne Judgment.

That isnt to say that Im not totally wrong about this and God consigns the Rich Man to eternal torment in the Lake of Fire anyways, but since it isnt clearly stated it should be simply assumed either.

[Hootmon]

That being said, Im going to bed. :wave

Ill be in Training for the next two days so my posting time will be limited. Will check back in the various threads when I can.

[kerri]

Originally posted by Hootmon
The Rich Man does indeed seem to be in substantial discomfort.


I agree and Scripture says some 4 times that his state is a state of torment.


Im not sure, because Scripture doesnt specifically tell us what will happen to people such as him post judgment. That has sort of been my point through all of this.


Well post judgement for the unbeliever, I see three things from scripture- 1) they will already have their imperishable bodies 2)they will be punished according to their recorded works 3)they will be cast into the lake of fire, which itself is an eternal fire.


I can tell you this much with certainty though. The Rich Man's 'torment' at his present location will have an ending. It will end at the Great White Throne Judgment where a new (possibly different) sentence will be applied in the Lake of Fire.

The man has not even been sentenced yet.. his torment is not because of his judgement which hasn't happened yet, its because of the state of his soul upon his death.

According to this scripture, the seperation in and of itself is a flaming torment (literal).


Obviously something that is 'imperishable' wont perish. By definition.

However, it could be destroyed (burned to ashes like Sodom and Gomorrah) by God if that were to be the proper punishment.

Were the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah imperishable?

No.

and yet scripture tells us the ressurected bodies will be.


Why would God call the ressurected body imperishable if He is going to extinguish it?

I'm not saying He doesn't have the ability to do so if He so chose, I'm just saying why would He call it such if it really weren't?


I'm not saying we know everything about the eternal state of the unbeliever- I'm just saying that from Scripture, I think its wrong to be teaching or assuming annhilation, when it certainly isn't directly laid out that way.... and from what we ARE shown, it seems quite the opposite.

[Lonewolf7]

Hootman....

Man oooooh man is that E-sword cooooooooool!!! I opened it up and I am like a little kid at christmas!!!!
Thank you soooo much!!!:):


Now ...Down to business.
Originally posted by Hootmon

Just because they are 'imperishable' doesnt mean they are necessarily 'indestructable'.

You are starting to confuse me again.......:confused

Indestructible
\In`de*struc"ti*ble\, a. [Pref. in- not + destructible: cf. F. indestructible.] Not destructible; incapable of decomposition or of being destroyed. --
Imperishable
\Im*per"ish*a*ble\, a. [Pref. im- not + perishable: cf. F. imp['e]rissable.] Not perishable; not subject to decay; indestructible; enduring permanently;
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

Hootman......I think you can see why your statement confuses me:confused


1 Corinthians 15:42
…… it is raised imperishable;
1 Corinthians 15:42
..... it is raised1453 in1722 incorruption:861

G861
ἀφθαρσία
aphtharsia
af-thar-see'-ah
From G862; incorruptibility; generally unending existence; (figuratively) genuineness: - immortality, incorruption, sincerity

Hebrews 7:16
…….. of the power of an indestructible life.
Hebrews 7:16
........the power1411 of an endless179 life.2222

G179
ἀκατάλυτος
akatalutos
ak-at-al'-oo-tos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of G2647; indissoluble, that is, (figuratively) permanent: - endless.

Originally posted by Hootmon

Just because they are 'imperishable' doesnt mean they are necessarily 'indestructable'.
Imperishable- G861-unending existence
Indestructible-G179-permanent: - endless


Imperishable--indestructible; enduring permanently
Indestructible--Not destructible


Does this convince you???
I think we can totally rule out any possibility of Annihilation.

I love this new toy....Hootman!!!

[blitzkreig]

Originally posted by Lonewolf7
Hootman....

Man oooooh man is that E-sword cooooooooool!!! I opened it up and I am like a little kid at christmas!!!!
Thank you soooo much!!!:): e-Sword is very nice and you can't beat the price :): .

A few suggestions.

1) take the on-line tutorial. It is well worth the time to get at all of the tools which aren't that obvious.

2) spend the 20 bucks and buy the NASB study series from the link provided on the website. If you use a credit card it takes about 10 minutes to unlock it. Very nice. I like the NASB very much and it too has the Strong's numbers and links.

3) Download every english commentary and map all at the same time and then install them one after another... a big time saver.
A cool part is the commentaries are hot-linked to the version of the bible you are currently clicked on... The maps and graphics are awsome... and best of all they are all free.

[Lonewolf7]

Jehovah's Witnesses

Main Doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses

Sin and Its Results
Sin - disobedience to Jehovah results in death and hell.
"termination of existence", "unconscious anihilation"
http://www.dabar.org/Missionsweb/Courses/IE/Personal/IEP13_Jehovahs_Witnesses.htm#Main_Doctrines


Here is a copy of an email I just sent them....I told them they have made a mistake.

-------------------------------

The mistake is that of .....annihilation.

Scripture says that the wicked will be resurrected imperishable...then face judgement...then are thrown in the lake of fire. Imperishable = Indestructible

Acts 24:15
..... there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5
28.... "ALL" that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth;........... and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1 Corinthians 15
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body............ it is raised imperishable;

1Co 15:42 So3779 also2532 is the3588 resurrection386 of the3588 dead.3498 It is sown4687 in1722 corruption;5356 it is raised1453 in1722 incorruption:861

G861
ἀφθαρσία
aphtharsia
af-thar-see'-ah
From G862; incorruptibility; generally unending existence; (figuratively) genuineness: - immortality, incorruption, sincerity

Daniel 12
1 .......-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Revelation 20
The Dead Are Judged
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.



Annihilation is not possible ....when the wicked have indestructible bodies.



You might want to change your stance on this doctrine.

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by kerri
Well post judgement for the unbeliever, I see three things from scripture- 1) they will already have their imperishable bodies 2)they will be punished according to their recorded works 3)they will be cast into the lake of fire, which itself is an eternal fire. Agreed.


Originally posted by kerri
The man has not even been sentenced yet.. his torment is not because of his judgement which hasn't happened yet, its because of the state of his soul upon his death.

According to this scripture, the seperation in and of itself is a flaming torment (literal). Agreed.


Originally posted by kerri
Why would God call the ressurected body imperishable if He is going to extinguish it? Why not?

As far as I can tell all of the 'imperishable' verses are referring to both believers AND unbelievers.


Originally posted by kerri
I'm not saying He doesn't have the ability to do so if He so chose, I'm just saying why would He call it such if it really weren't? I was just using that as an example of why it it might be a mistake to simply assume that because the body is 'imperishable' it is also 'indestructable'.


Originally posted by kerri
I'm not saying we know everything about the eternal state of the unbeliever- I'm just saying that from Scripture, I think its wrong to be teaching or assuming annhilation, when it certainly isn't directly laid out that way.... and from what we ARE shown, it seems quite the opposite. I am NOT assuming annihilation. I am also NOT assuming eternal torment. Neither is clearly taught in Scripture.

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by Lonewolf7
Hootman....

Man oooooh man is that E-sword cooooooooool!!! I opened it up and I am like a little kid at christmas!!!!
Thank you soooo much!!!:): Im glad you like it. :D:

Ive found it very helpful in getting closer to the original meanings of things...


Originally posted by Lonewolf7
You are starting to confuse me again.......:confused

<SNIP>

Does this convince you???
I think we can totally rule out any possibility of Annihilation.

I love this new toy....Hootman!!! What would convince me is clear Scripture. :wave

As I said upstream, there is no reason to assume that God cant destroy that which he creates.

[Lonewolf7]

Originally posted by Hootmon

I am NOT assuming annihilation. I am also NOT assuming eternal torment. Neither is clearly taught in Scripture.

Hey Hootman...how is the training going??


...down to business again.


Ok....if you do not choose to use 'torment'...when talking about the indestructible wicked in the lake of fire, what would you choose to describe their punishment?

It will be forever....and they are literally IN a lake of fire....if you can imagine that.

Think about the last time you went swimming.......now imagine that that body of water was completely on fire.

How bad would you want to exit that body of water if it was totally on fire??

Now imagine the wicked for eternity.....how bad would it be??

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by Lonewolf7
Jehovah's Witnesses No need to insult me.

I am not proposing that the unsaved WILL be annihilated.

I am proposing that we dont KNOW the ultimate fate of the majority of the consignees to the Lake of Fire.

[Hootmon]

Another thought occurred to me....

Where is it ever stated that the Beast and the False Prophet actually receive resurrection bodies? As far as I can tell they are consigned to the Lake of Fire in the flesh and while still alive.

Unless it can be shown that they too received imperishable bodies, the 'indestructable' argument becomes moot.

[Lonewolf7]

Originally posted by Hootmon
No need to insult me.

I am not proposing that the unsaved WILL be annihilated.



Hootman...

I am sorry, It was not intended for you....but for new christians who read this entire post and then come to see that annihilation is one of the main doctrines taught by that cult.

I was not trying to imply anything in your direction.....

Remember the coke and snickers??

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by Lonewolf7
Hey Hootman...how is the training going?? Good, thanks. It should be helpful in supporting our planned network upgrades.


Originally posted by Lonewolf7
Ok....if you do not choose to use 'torment'...when talking about the indestructible wicked in the lake of fire, what would you choose to describe their punishment? I choose to apply the word 'torment' only where it appears in Scripture as it relates to the Lake of Fire.


Originally posted by Lonewolf7
It will be forever....and they are literally IN a lake of fire....if you can imagine that. The 'punishMENT' will indeed be 'forever'. That much is clear. I just dont see where we must assume that the 'punishING' is the same in most cases.


Originally posted by Lonewolf7
Now imagine the wicked for eternity.....how bad would it be?? That would be the worst possible scenario for those consigned to such a fate.

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by Lonewolf7
Hootman...

I am sorry, It was not intended for you....but for new christians who read this entire post and then come to see that annihilation is one of the main doctrines taught by that cult.

I was not trying to imply anything in your direction.....

Remember the coke and snickers?? I appologize for over-reacting, but it wouldnt be the first time I have been (indirectly) accused of Heresy in this discussion.

[Lonewolf7]

Originally posted by Hootmon
Another thought occurred to me....

Where is it ever stated that the Beast and the False Prophet actually receive resurrection bodies? As far as I can tell they are consigned to the Lake of Fire in the flesh and while still alive.

Unless it can be shown that they too received imperishable bodies, the 'indestructable' argument becomes moot.

Revelation 19 & 20 describe that they are thrown into the lake of fire.....and that they are still there 1000 years later when the devil joins them. Then...they are described as being tormented forever and ever.

How would it be possible to exist in such a place unless you were given an indestructible body???

Scripture does not clearly state it......but it is implied because we are able to read and understand.

The Lord does not have to absolutely ...clearly draw everything out with a crayon when He tells us something that we can understand.

Here is an example.....
Luke 8
52Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. "Stop wailing," Jesus said. "She is not dead but asleep."
53They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead.

2 Corinthians 1:13
For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that,

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by Lonewolf7
How would it be possible to exist in such a place unless you were given an indestructible body??? Now THAT is a good question. I dont know the answer.

Perhaps we should start with 'We dont know yet' and see where that takes us... :D:


Originally posted by Lonewolf7
Scripture does not clearly state it......but it is implied because we are able to read and understand.

The Lord does not have to absolutely ...clearly draw everything out with a crayon when He tells us something that we can understand. I agree about the crayons part. We are to graduate from Milk to Meat.


Originally posted by Lonewolf7
Scripture does not clearly state it......but it is implied because we are able to read and understand. 'Implication' is a useful technique. I feel that in this case that technique cant be applied fully because we are talking about something that is described differently twice. 'Thrown in' the Lake of Fire compared to 'Thrown in and Eternally Tormented' the Lake of Fire, and the fact that at least some may not be 'imperishable'.


Originally posted by Lonewolf7
Luke 8
52Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. "Stop wailing," Jesus said. "She is not dead but asleep."
53They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. Im guessing that Prophecy regarding the ultimate fate of all the unsaved would not be an occasion for hyperbole, but I could be wrong...

[Lonewolf7]

This is waaay out there...but...

Reverse it all.....

We can read about certain people who....go to heaven.

In other areas....we read about what heaven is like....or how long it goes on.

Do we question.....a person that scripture says went to heaven.... as to how long 'that person' will stay there just because scripture did not exactly state......'Johny went to heaven for eternity'?????


Or better yet......Psalm 16:11
You have made [ 16:11 Or [ You will make ] ] known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand.

Just because that guy, (Joe), is in heaven....and will have eternal pleasures......yada yada yada...

Scripture still does not specifically state that 'Johny' will have eternal pleasures....or 'joy in His presence'...even though we know 'Johny' went to heaven.

WE DON'T EVEN QUESTION IT.......Johny went there and it is good.


Now....from other scriptures we can read that certain rewards are given in heaven for certain service.....that type of thing, but we never question 'how good will he have it' and for how long.

We know what heaven is described as being like....we know how long it will last.

It is that type of reasoning that makes sense of the horrors of the lake of fire.

We are told that 'Johny's brother' went there.....and that is all the info we are given.

In another area.....we read about 'Johny's brother's friend fred as being thrown into the same place....but we are 'for whatever reason', given more information....we are told just what type of stuff is going on to him.

Example Rev 20:10

Johny's brother went there......and it is bad. We don't know if he is as bad off as fred is......but it is still very, very BAD.


Acts 17:2
...... he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

Rea·son ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rzn)
n. An underlying fact or cause that provides logical sense for a premise or occurrence:There is reason to believe that the accused did not commit this crime.
The capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought; intelligence.

[jelli<><]

Matthew 10:28 ~


*And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

destroy: to put an end to; extinguish. to kill. smash, level, waste, ravage, demolish, extirpate, annihilate.

punish: to subject a person to pain, confinement, death, etc., as a penalty for some offense. to inflict such a penalty for an offense. to handle severely or roughly, as in a fight. to put to painful exertion . penalize.

[Lonewolf7]

Originally posted by jelli<><
Matthew 10:28 ~


*And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


I know what you are trying to say.....but you will have to prove your case.

The wicked are resurrected....and when that happens they get an indestructible body.

If you could prove otherwise....you would have a case.

Acts 24:15
..... there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5
28.... "ALL" that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth;........... and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1 Corinthians 15
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body..................... it is raised imperishable;

1Co 15:42 So3779 also2532 is the3588 resurrection386 of the3588 dead.3498 It is sown4687 in1722 corruption;5356 it is raised1453 in1722 incorruption:861

G861
ἀφθαρσία
aphtharsia
af-thar-see'-ah
From G862; incorruptibility; generally unending existence; (figuratively) genuineness: - immortality, incorruption, sincerity

[Lonewolf7]

Originally posted by jelli<><
Matthew 10:28 ~


*And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.



You are trying to demonstrate annihilation....in hell.


Let everyone look at one case of a whole town sent to hell.

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah ….serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Genesis 19:13
because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it."


2 Peter 2
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[1] putting them into gloomy dungeons[2] to be held for judgment 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how …….. to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.[3]

Matthew 11:24
But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."

Sodom still to this day waits for the judgement


If your personal interpretation of destroy was correct.....sodom would have been annihilated in hell. Scripture clearly shows that the people of sodom are still in hell.....thousands of years later still waiting for judgment.


Specifically JELLI.....answer this

Is Sodom in hell?? How long ago were they sent there??
Will sodom be present for the judgment...as Matt 11:24 says???

If you say they are destroyed in hell....why is sodom still there???

Perhaps you do not interpret destroy correctly.

[jelli<><]

As for the verse in 1 Cor 15 ~ this is speaking of the believers


42 ) In this passage, the Paul does not speak of the resurrection of unbelievers, but the resurrection of the redeemed.

[Lonewolf7]

Originally posted by jelli<><
As for the verse in 1 Cor 15 ~ this is speaking of the believers


42 ) In this passage, the Paul does not speak of the resurrection of unbelievers, but the resurrection of the redeemed.

Scripture says….. ‘resurrection of the dead’ 1cor15:42

The wicked are among the resurrected dead……Acts24:15,John5:28-29

The resurrected dead are raised ….imperishable.

If God was ONLY talking about christians, He would make it specific….like He does in other verses …ie…..
1 Thessalonians 4:16
….. the dead in Christ

[Lonewolf7]

2 Peter 2
4..... sent them to hell,[1] putting them into gloomy dungeons[2] to be held for judgment 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how …….. to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.[3]

Matthew 11:24
But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."


JELLI????

Why are they not destroyed in the way you think destroyed is used????

1 Corinthians 15
42So it is with the resurrection of the dead. [The body] that is sown is perishable and decays, but [the body] that is resurrected is imperishable (immune to decay, immortal).(1)

If immortal bodies were only given to 'resurrected' believers.....The Lord would NOT have used the word 'resurrected' when He spoke about the wicked!!!


If you want to claim 1 Cor 15:42....as ONLY to the believers...fine.
The Lord says that He 'resurrects....imperishable'

Your case would hold water.....if HE did not use the word 'resurrect' ....when talking about the wicked.


A balloon????? (http://simson.net/ref/free_media/12000_images/SOUNDS/BALLOON.WAV)


Jelli???

Titus 1:13
This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith

[Joshua's Gen]

JParks I was thinking of an argument against annihilation
JParks not sure if it's stretching it though
JParks wanted your opine

k

JParks well, first.. I need to ask - being made in the image of God.. what does that entail?

body spirit and soul?

JParks I like that aspect of it. Triune nature. Yea...
JParks well, I didn't know if the eternal nature of God was imprinted into us in the sense that.. we were also created to live for eternity (eternally). And if so.. Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Wouldn't annihilation be God taking back this honor (gift) He bestowed on mankind?
JParks or is that stretching it? :P

well- the soul and sprit ARE eternal,, what is the verse again that says that?

JParks Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

but besides that... how we deal with death is indicative of the fact that we were never meant ot experience it....
ask anyone who has dealt with it- its like you are lost and wandering trying to find your way through completely foreign territory
it is so foriegn to our nature because our nature was never meant to experience it

JParks losing a loved one is often like grieving over someone dear to you that's passed away, as well.
JParks I agree
JParks in the sense, of a love relationship

yes, I can see that as well

JParks so... Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. figure in, or no?

we just arent equipped to deal with it in any certan way which is why everybody grieves so differently
not sure how that applies- explain to me a little

JParks Well doesn't annihilation say we cease to exist forever (the damned)?

yes

JParks Then isn't that God revoking something? our eternal nature? and in contradicition to - Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. God's not an indian giver, He doesn't give then take back lol

is that what without repentance means?
I need an easier translation on this one ;P

JParks ok, lemme see

I guess the question would then be- are our lives (including souls) a gift... I think you CAN prove that one from scripture- about children being gifts from God

JParks some different translations ...
JParks For God's gifts and his call can never be withdrawn.
JParks For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

k- I get it now ;)

JParks yeah, those two are basically the only different ones

what is the context of the verse?

JParks it's a chapter on Israel.. and the time of the Gentiles.. but God has not cast away Israel..

I see and it speaks to Gods nature... yeah I think it could appply if you can also add scripture that can speak to the soul being eternal and that our lives (body spirit and soul) are gifts from God
just thinking ahead to what will be said to pick it apart

JParks yeah, I need added scripture/evidence backing up that we were created to be eternal
JParks heh
JParks our souls, spirits

[Lonewolf7]

Man....... I absolutely DESPISE the Jehovah's Witnesses doctrines.......especially annihilation.:mad :mad :mad :mad :frusty

This verse pops up right away when I think of them.....

Galatians 1:7
which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.

[Warrior Prophet]

Lonewolf,
I'm just thankful you're here to fight this heresy head on. Thanks for the good work.

IHS,
Mark Murphy

[Jiggy37]

Originally posted by jelli<><
Matthew 10:28 ~


*And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Argument against that:
Just because He's capable of destroying both soul and body in hell doesn't mean that that's what will happen.

Originally posted by Lonewolf7
2 Peter 2
4..... sent them to hell,[1] putting them into gloomy dungeons[2] to be held for judgment
Why do you keep leaving out parts of the verses?

2 Peter 2:4, NIV:
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[1] putting them into gloomy dungeons[2] to be held for judgment;

I don't get it, because including the rest of it actually would have supported your point.

9if this is so, then the Lord knows how …….. to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.[3]
This takes place before the lake of fire.

Matthew 11:24
But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."
Let me ask you something.
Is "day" figurative here? It's one thing to say that it'll be more bearable for Sodom than those who rejected Christ while He was among them on the day of judgment--but what about after the judgment?
Why doesn't He just come right out and say "it will be more bearable for Sodom in the lake of fire than for you"? I'd like to think that Jesus chose His words very carefully for a reason--and I understand that He often used parables to hide the truth from those who weren't willing to listen, but this was Him directly describing eternal Truth, not giving an illustrative passage.

[jelli<><]

Quote LW: Scripture says….. ‘resurrection of the dead’ 1cor15:42

The wicked are among the resurrected dead……Acts24:15,John5:28-29

The resurrected dead are raised ….imperishable.

If God was ONLY talking about christians, He would make it specific….like He does in other verses …ie…..
1 Thessalonians 4:16
….. the dead in Christ
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please read 1 Cor 15:42 in context! Let's look at the verses directly before and after this one!

Let's see.... vs. 41 ~ There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in GLORY. ~ *oKAY, We're talking about glory here. Can't imagine that pertaining to the unbelievers?


Now, vs 43, ~ It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in GLORY: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in POWER. hmm....? Glory and Power? Unbelievers here? Don't think so.

[Lonewolf7]

Originally posted by jelli<><

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please read 1 Cor 15:42 in context! Let's look at the verses directly before and after this one!

Let's see.... vs. 41 ~ There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in GLORY. ~ *oKAY, We're talking about glory here. Can't imagine that pertaining to the unbelievers?


Now, vs 43, ~ It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in GLORY: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in POWER. hmm....? Glory and Power? Unbelievers here? Don't think so.

I know them very well.


I will say again....as I said earlier....If immortal bodies were only given to 'resurrected' believers.....The Lord would NOT have used the word 'resurrected' when He spoke about the wicked!!!


If you want to claim 1 Cor 15:42....as ONLY to the believers...fine.
The Lord says that He 'resurrects....imperishable'

Your case would hold water.....if HE did not use the word 'resurrect' ....when talking about the wicked.



Plus.....I will ADD this.

The antichrist and the false prophet are NO different than your dad, brother, grandpa....or even my uncle. ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENT. THEY are as human as is Tom Cruise. Who knows, they may have been born in a hospital near you.....perhaps you could have even saw them cooing in a cribb.

You may say.....hey they got power.....DUH....but it was 'given' to them........no different than Elijah calling down fire from heaven.

They are MORTAL HUMAN BEINGS.......they gotta buy toilet paper and eat mac n cheese just like the rest of us.

The only way for spiritually dead humanity to enter heaven is to gain the new birth via The Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ. The AC and FP .....we already know ....do NOT choose this course. They go against God.....with satan and are cast into the lake of fire alive...tortured day and night forever and ever.

Hebrews 10:29
How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?



Besides all of this.....you have NOT answered SODOM. They have been in hell for thousands of years and are still waiting to be judged.

You say 'destroy' means annihilation............scripture defines destroy.....as DESTINATION

You have based your ENTIRE case on the misinterpretation of one singular word.....all the time ignoring a ton of other scriptures......and not employing sound reasoning from the scriptures.

Rea·son ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rzn)
An underlying fact or cause that provides logical sense for a premise or occurrence: There is reason to believe that the accused did not commit this crime.
The capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought; intelligence.

Acts 17:2
......he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,


You argue as though you wish annihilation were true.....and mislead and give reason to the wicked ......TO NOT REPENT AND SEEK FORGIVENESS FROM JESUS CHRIST

They read your argument and think.....huh....cease to exist....sounds good to me.......I might as well keep on sinning.


For that reason alone.....

Jude 1:9
....... "The Lord rebuke you!"

[Lonewolf7]

This verse.....probably does not apply to this thread, BUT....it deals with those who teach incorrect doctrine.....in those days long ago.


As I said.....it may not apply....but just think about it for a couple minutes.

Matthew 23:15
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by Lonewolf7
The antichrist and the false prophet are NO different than your dad, brother, grandpa....or even my uncle. ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENT. THEY are as human as is Tom Cruise. Who knows, they may have been born in a hospital near you.....perhaps you could have even saw them cooing in a cribb.

You may say.....hey they got power.....DUH....but it was 'given' to them........no different than Elijah calling down fire from heaven.

They are MORTAL HUMAN BEINGS.......they gotta buy toilet paper and eat mac n cheese just like the rest of us.

The only way for spiritually dead humanity to enter heaven is to gain the new birth via The Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ. The AC and FP .....we already know ....do NOT choose this course. They go against God.....with satan and are cast into the lake of fire alive...tortured day and night forever and ever. I tend to agree that the Beast and False prophet are fully human.
Revelation 19:20

And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
How do you explain that they are clearly stated as being tormented day and night forever and ever when they are also clearly stated as being alive?

It would seem that the issue of 'imperishableness' is not strictly relevant to the experience in the Lake of Fire.

[Lonewolf7]

Originally posted by Hootmon
I tend to agree that the Beast and False prophet are fully human.

How do you explain that they are clearly stated as being tormented day and night forever and ever when they are also clearly stated as being alive?

It would seem that the issue of 'imperishableness' is not strictly relevant to the experience in the Lake of Fire.


When scriptures says that they were thrown into there alive.....that is exactly true. They did not bodily die before going to there.

It is most obvious that upon reaching their destination....their earthly body quickly perished.......but they continued on in spirit.

Numbers 16
30 But if the LORD brings about something totally new, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them, with everything that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the grave, [1] then you will know that these men have treated the LORD with contempt."
31 As soon as he finished saying all this, the ground under them split apart 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them, with their households and all Korah's men and all their possessions. 33 They went down alive into the grave, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community.
H7585
ùׁàì ùׁàåì
she'ôl she'ôl
sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.



Going to hell ....alive is not totally new, because as you see it has happened before.


This next verse just shows that those who reside in hell are there in spirit.....as their earthly bodies could not exist there.

Isaiah 14
9 The grave [1] below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you-
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones-
all those who were kings over the nations.
10 They will all respond,
they will say to you,
"You also have become weak, as we are;
you have become like us."
11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,
along with the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you
and worms cover you.

Isa 14:9 Hell7585 from beneath4480, 8478 is moved7264 for thee to meet7122 thee at thy coming:935 it stirreth up5782 the dead7496 for thee, even all3605 the chief ones6260 of the earth;776 it hath


Most all people physically die before going to hell though.....

Luke 12
5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

[Hootmon]

Revelation 20:14

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. Ive always been a bit confused about the whole Hell/Hades/Sheol/Gehenna thing.

Im not entirely sure which is which, but we KNOW that 'death and Hades' are NOT the same thing as the Lake fo Fire.

[Lonewolf7]

Originally posted by Hootmon
Ive always been a bit confused about the whole Hell/Hades/Sheol/Gehenna thing.

Im not entirely sure which is which, but we KNOW that 'death and Hades' are NOT the same thing as the Lake fo Fire.


That is an important question.....one that makes me curious.....

Perhaps Hell is not as bad as the lake of fire????

[Jiggy37]

Originally posted by Lonewolf7
That is an important question.....one that makes me curious.....

Perhaps Hell is not as bad as the lake of fire????
Presumably they at least serve different functions, or there would be no real purpose to pulling them out of hell only to send them into the lake of fire...

[Lonewolf7]

Originally posted by Jiggy37
Presumably they at least serve different functions, or there would be no real purpose to pulling them out of hell only to send them into the lake of fire...



.....keep going....please..........elaborate and share more of your thoughts.


Are you thinking.....they are lost...so they need punishment...but since the judgment has not occured they are being held. ....but when judgment occurs...the real punishment..or harsher begins??


Kind of like this below??

Luke 12
5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Ephesians 4:18
..... separated from the life of God.....

2 Peter 2:4
….......sent them to hell,[1] putting them into gloomy dungeons[2] to be held for judgment;

Isaiah 14
11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, …….
maggots are spread out beneath you
and worms cover you.

2 Peter 2
9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.[1]
Footnotes
1. 2:9 Or unrighteous for punishment until the day of judgment

Revelation 20
12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

Hebrews 10:29
How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Luke 12
47"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows

[Jiggy37]

Originally posted by Lonewolf7
.....keep going....please..........elaborate and share more of your thoughts.


Are you thinking.....they are lost...so they need punishment...but since the judgment has not occured they are being held. ....but when judgment occurs...the real punishment..or harsher begins??
You already know my thoughts by now after seeing the rest of this thread: I don't know.

Besides, this entire line of thinking--that there must be some sort of difference between hell and the lake of fire or there would be no reason for God to pull them out of hell only to judge them and throw them into the lake of fire--is only working with logic. It has no scriptural support, in all honesty, although I don't see it being refuted with scripture either.

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by Jiggy37
Presumably they at least serve different functions, or there would be no real purpose to pulling them out of hell only to send them into the lake of fire... I agree.

An understanding of what exactly happens where would make this whole issue much less confusing.

[SavedbyYeshua]

I do not think anyone wants to go to hell.

http://www.revlu.com/hell.html