church for BELIEVERS only?

[sunshine4jesus]

I did not want to derail "is church necessary" thread.

I got the impression that some think church is for believers onlyy.
What scriptures reveal this?

If I misread , I apologize.

[Willo]

Originally posted by sunshine4jesus
I did not want to derail "is church necessary" thread.

I got the impression that some think church is for believers onlyy.
What scriptures reveal this?

If I misread , I apologize.

The church is the body of Christ, also known as the Born Again Christians.

But if you are talking church as in the building, there is no scripture that supports, that the building is for believers only.

My church encourages people to bring along unsaved friends etc. because by doing this it gives the unsaved the chance to here the salvation message.

[KrispyKritter]

Actually, church gatherings are mainly for believers only. Why? Because Paul states over and over that the purpose for their gatherings were for the building up and edification of the believers. People think it's for evangelism, but that is not what you see happening in the 1st century. Sure... evangelism can happen, as unsaved people will attend, but the purpose is for equiping the saints.

Read Pauls writings to the churches in Corinth, or to the Galations. Very little mention is made about unbelievers in their midst. I believe the only time it is made is when he is scolding them for the abuses of the gift of tongues. And you can not make an argument that there was an overwhelming evangelistic emphasis in their churches based on those verses.

I am not saying we should ban unsaved people from coming to church... merely saying that church gatherings are not intended to be outreach, but rather in-reach.

Evangelism happens outside of the church gatherings, as a result of believers being equiped and edified, and living their walk with God before the world.

[cindyw]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
I am not saying we should ban unsaved people from coming to church... merely saying that church gatherings are not intended to be outreach, but rather in-reach.

Evangelism happens outside of the church gatherings, as a result of believers being equiped and edified, and living their walk with God before the world.

:nod :thumb

[Patty T]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Actually, church gatherings are mainly for believers only. Why? Because Paul states over and over that the purpose for their gatherings were for the building up and edification of the believers. People think it's for evangelism, but that is not what you see happening in the 1st century. Sure... evangelism can happen, as unsaved people will attend, but the purpose is for equiping the saints.

Read Pauls writings to the churches in Corinth, or to the Galations. Very little mention is made about unbelievers in their midst. I believe the only time it is made is when he is scolding them for the abuses of the gift of tongues. And you can not make an argument that there was an overwhelming evangelistic emphasis in their churches based on those verses.

I am not saying we should ban unsaved people from coming to church... merely saying that church gatherings are not intended to be outreach, but rather in-reach.

Evangelism happens outside of the church gatherings, as a result of believers being equiped and edified, and living their walk with God before the world.

I've never really thought about it this way before. It makes so much sense and lines up with scripture to boot.

Thanks, Krispy.

Patty

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by Patty T
I've never really thought about it this way before. It makes so much sense and lines up with scripture to boot.

Thanks, Krispy.

Patty

PattyT ... check your email. :wave

[Patty T]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
PattyT ... check your email. :wave

kay -

[GloryBound]

Krispy, I agree completely.

[CrossLightMin]

:wave

Krispy...

I agree also...

It is the shepherd's responsibility to maintain a safe enviroment for the sheep to grow.

I read one church's orders of operation and the ministers go and visit someone who comes to church more than two or three times in a row without talking to the minister.

Many times, this church reports, they have found that there has been trouble with the person and the church they have left behind and moved from.

Thus, the minister contacts the previous minister to seek for a reconciliation between them, or a blessing from the previous minister... if this can not be attained, sometimes it has been necessary, the church reported, to send the person or persons onward and out from among their midst.

This gives the congregation a secure feeling and, in this case, the church is growing with a strong membership... thus the fruit then becomes evangalism.


His servant
stacie

[daveleau]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
I am not saying we should ban unsaved people from coming to church... merely saying that church gatherings are not intended to be outreach, but rather in-reach.

Evangelism happens outside of the church gatherings, as a result of believers being equiped and edified, and living their walk with God before the world.

How do we reach people if we restrict where they go? Jesus uses a great analogy:
Mat 9:12 But when he heard it, he said, They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick.

Keeping unsaved people from the church, church gatherings or anything other than Communion is a sin, plain and simple. What Paul talks about in his letters is that we should not turn church into a place where we do not worship God. If we let the unsaved lead the way, then we have done so. What better place to teach people about Salvation then at church and at church gatherings?!? We should seek out the unsaved and bring as many as we can to our churches and church gatherings.

I am often befuddled by some of the ideas I see here because they are saying Christians say, but are opposite of Scripture.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by daveleau
How do we reach people if we restrict where they go? Jesus uses a great analogy:
Mat 9:12 But when he heard it, he said, They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick.

Keeping unsaved people from the church, church gatherings or anything other than Communion is a sin, plain and simple. What Paul talks about in his letters is that we should not turn church into a place where we do not worship God. If we let the unsaved lead the way, then we have done so. What better place to teach people about Salvation then at church and at church gatherings?!? We should seek out the unsaved and bring as many as we can to our churches and church gatherings.

I am often befuddled by some of the ideas I see here because they are saying Christians say, but are opposite of Scripture.

Where in my post did I say anything about restricting who comes to a gathering?

Show me in scripture where the church gatherings are described a different way from how I described it. You cant, but try anyway...

Show me where anything I said is opposite scripture.

If the church gatherings and worship time are focussed on preaching salvation all the time... to borrow a phrase from Wendy's... Where's The Beef?? I've been in some churches where it's salvation salvation salvation... and everyone is saved. There is no meat preached or taught.

You completely misread my post if you think I'm suggesting we restrict unbelievers from coming to church. I would urge you to not do that to me because I'm beginning to find that sort of thing to be rather irritating.

[BHiles]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Actually, church gatherings are mainly for believers only. Why? Because Paul states over and over that the purpose for their gatherings were for the building up and edification of the believers. People think it's for evangelism, but that is not what you see happening in the 1st century. Sure... evangelism can happen, as unsaved people will attend, but the purpose is for equiping the saints.

Read Pauls writings to the churches in Corinth, or to the Galations. Very little mention is made about unbelievers in their midst. I believe the only time it is made is when he is scolding them for the abuses of the gift of tongues. And you can not make an argument that there was an overwhelming evangelistic emphasis in their churches based on those verses.

I am not saying we should ban unsaved people from coming to church... merely saying that church gatherings are not intended to be outreach, but rather in-reach.

Evangelism happens outside of the church gatherings, as a result of believers being equiped and edified, and living their walk with God before the world.

:thumb

[BHiles]

So let me get this straight Krispy. You are saying that the church should be exclusive-A club if you will. Where only those who look like me, dress like me and act like me should dare ever enter. If someone were to approach the doors of the church they should be immediately asked if they were a born-again believer and if they were not, right there on the spot they should be shown the Romans Road map to heaven. If they accept then and only then they should be allowed to come in (provided that there hair is neatly trimed and they are dressed appropriately and the woman has on a head covering.) Otherwise they should be admonished that until they do they cannot come in to the building and enjoy the wonderful tapestries, music and deeper meat of the Word. Have I interpereted what you said correctly?





[/sarcasm]
:D:

[KrispyKritter]

ARRRRGH!!!!!!!!!!

Good thing I know you're just :boink 'ing me, Bhiles!!

That was pretty funny, bro!

[KrispyKritter]

I think I need to apologize for being so stern in my comment about getting irritated by people who completely misread what I say. I mean, it is irritating... but I should have been a little nicer about it.

Sooo... I apologize.

Sincerely,
A kinder-gentler Krispy
...until someone irritates me again!!

:D:

[John Tyson]

Grace and peace to you all.

I generally agree that the local church is for the saints of Jesus Christ to gather together for, worship, pray, and to lift up one another, as Krispy well explained. The early church obviously had what we today would call "seekers." Seekers should be welcomed to our services so that they may learn and hopefully become saved. In the days of Christ's incarnation, the seekers I believe were called "God-fearers." God-fearers were welcome to attend the Jewish synagogue services. These God-fearers, as I understand it, were gentile proselytes who were drawn to the "one God" theology and the Jewish moral laws, but stopped short of circumcision and full conversion into the Jewish congregation. After Pentecost, when Christ was preached to these gentile God-fearers, many became the Church's first converts. They learned of Christ by not only personal witness from Christians (i.e. Cornelius, a God-fearer) but also by attending the Christian church services as they had in the Jewish synagogues. Finding that they did not have to become Jews to be Christians, many of the God-fearers believed and were converted unto Christ. In the early church as today, the Church is for worship, prayer, edification, and equipping of the saints. But, the Church has always been a place where the "God-fearers/seekers" are most welcome also.

God bless,
John

[janh7]

Willo said:

"My church encourages people to bring along unsaved friends etc. because by doing this it gives the unsaved the chance to here the salvation message."

We should be sharing the salvation message everyday when the need arised in the workplace, at the market etc. You don't need the sermon on Sunday to offer the plan of salvation to the unbeliever, although from time to time that may happen. The purpose of the sermon should be to build up the saints and to equip them to share the gospel out in the world: to inspire, to convict, and to teach.

[houseparent]

How many of you have ever heard an unsaved person who said they enjoyed church?

Not a program, a concert, or a play but a regular Sunday service?

What does that tell you?

[daveleau]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
You completely misread my post if you think I'm suggesting we restrict unbelievers from coming to church. I would urge you to not do that to me because I'm beginning to find that sort of thing to be rather irritating.

I'm not trying to start an argument. My apologies. I think we have misunderstood each other, but getting irritated by what I said in response to something you wrote won't do anyone any good. :confused

You said that church gatherings were meant for in-reach and not out-reach. That is a pretty strong statement. I think you may have meant that the church message should cater to the needs of the congregation, which should focus on the growth of believers while still providing for the unsaved. But, I will not put words in your mouth. The message and all church functions are meant for both believers and non-believers. Restricting unsaved people from any message is not what is intended. I already provided scripture that says that the church is meant for all (church and church gatherings are the same since the church is the people and the Good News, not the building, or something that manifests itself on Sundays and Wed nights). The church's focus is not on building a believing Christian's faith alone. It is at least equally meant to bring those to salvation. That is why most churches have alter calls and reach out each service after the meat has been dealt to the membership through the sermon. I agree that a church has many more tasks than to preach salvation, but to not provide for unbelievers at any time is missing an opportunity that we are supposed to take.

If you did not mean that delineation, then I again apologize. My understanding of your ideas is limited to what is printed in your writings. If you meant something other than what you said, then disregard the above.

[Willo]

Originally posted by janh7
Willo said:

"My church encourages people to bring along unsaved friends etc. because by doing this it gives the unsaved the chance to here the salvation message."

We should be sharing the salvation message everyday when the need arised in the workplace, at the market etc. You don't need the sermon on Sunday to offer the plan of salvation to the unbeliever, although from time to time that may happen. The purpose of the sermon should be to build up the saints and to equip them to share the gospel out in the world: to inspire, to convict, and to teach.

So true, but the question is where do the unsaved go when they are in trouble? or in need?

They go to church, what a perfect time to let them know about Jesus.

[Willo]

Originally posted by houseparent
How many of you have ever heard an unsaved person who said they enjoyed church?

Not a program, a concert, or a play but a regular Sunday service?

What does that tell you?

More than I can count, heaps of unsaved people I know said they enjoy the normal sunday services.

[sunshine4jesus]

Wilo,
More than I can count, heaps of unsaved people I know said they enjoy the normal sunday services

:thumb

And, more importantly, it put many on the road to salvation.

[houseparent]

What kind of service did they attend? I have NEVER known an unsaved person to enjoy deep bible study and worship.

EVER

[BHiles]

Originally posted by daveleau
I'm not trying to start an argument. My apologies. I think we have misunderstood each other, but getting irritated by what I said in response to something you wrote won't do anyone any good. :confused

You said that church gatherings were meant for in-reach and not out-reach. That is a pretty strong statement. I think you may have meant that the church message should cater to the needs of the congregation, which should focus on the growth of believers while still providing for the unsaved. But, I will not put words in your mouth. The message and all church functions are meant for both believers and non-believers. Restricting unsaved people from any message is not what is intended. I already provided scripture that says that the church is meant for all (church and church gatherings are the same since the church is the people and the Good News, not the building, or something that manifests itself on Sundays and Wed nights). The church's focus is not on building a believing Christian's faith alone. It is at least equally meant to bring those to salvation. That is why most churches have alter calls and reach out each service after the meat has been dealt to the membership through the sermon. I agree that a church has many more tasks than to preach salvation, but to not provide for unbelievers at any time is missing an opportunity that we are supposed to take.

If you did not mean that delineation, then I again apologize. My understanding of your ideas is limited to what is printed in your writings. If you meant something other than what you said, then disregard the above.

The Evangelistic Church was NOT the New Testament Model. In the New Testament the Evangelizing was done on the street and door to door. People were getting saved and added to the church daily through this method and then they would meet with the church. The role of the church was to equip the saints so they could be effective in this.

Their are problems that arise wiuth a strictly evangelistic church. Krispy already metioned a few but there are more. For one thing it place all of the evangelism on the pastor when we are all to be witnesses for Christ, instant in season and out of season to preach the gospel of Christ. This is everyone's responsibility.

Another problem is that many times and more common than not the church will water down the gospel and/or standards in order to attract a crowd. A wrong means to a good end but the Bible distinctly warns of this. Let the Church be the Church and the world be the world and never let the Church be influenced by the world.

[sunshine4jesus]

the kind where the pastor prays and asks the Holy Spirit to give him the freedom and conviction to teach on the scripture passage.
Where prayer is not stylized, but comes from the heart.
Where the music is sung to Him with all of our voices(some off key):): .
Where there is a few minutes spent in gretting one another and welcoming any visitors.
Where there are Bibles in the racks along with the hymnbooks for people to use.
Where there are requests to contact members who are not present. ( to make sure they are not sick, or in need, just to say we missed them)
where the missionaries we help support are prayed for, and their letters are included in our church bulletins, so we can in some way see what God is doing
where our government officials are prayed for.

These things happen on every normal service. Even an unsaved person can feel the love, and most people like that. Therefore, they enjoyed being there.

[Willo]

Originally posted by houseparent
What kind of service did they attend? I have NEVER known an unsaved person to enjoy deep bible study and worship.

EVER

They enjoyed the normal Bible Study, and worship service, many people come to our church because they enjoy the music in worship, and they like the "call it as it is" preacher.:nod

[savedandhappy1]

sunshine4jesus,

I agree!!!!!! It sounds like you are talking about my church. We sing we greet, we pray, we let the Holy Spirit lead. We have had the alter call during or right after the song service. It is so great.


Love in Christ,
Kathy

[houseparent]

Wow,

From my experiences most unbelievers HATE church. They find it boring and pointless. They tend to feel "good enough" and hearing a man preach the word of God annoys them to some point because they feel personally "attacked".

I run a bible study and everytime we get non-saved visitors they are annoyed because they think I am "too preachy" and focus too much on "Christ-likeness".

In al honesty I know many believers who think we focus too much on Christ likeness!!!!!

I can't imagine having non-believers in a church service who are then HAPPY with the service.

Blows my mind.

I would like to see a room full of BELIEVERS be happy in church every week let alone non believers!

[Elizabeth_S]

Originally posted by houseparent
Wow,

From my experiences most unbelievers HATE church. They find it boring and pointless. They tend to feel "good enough" and hearing a man preach the word of God annoys them to some point because they feel personally "attacked".

I run a bible study and everytime we get non-saved visitors they are annoyed because they think I am "too preachy" and focus too much on "Christ-likeness".

In al honesty I know many believers who think we focus too much on Christ likeness!!!!!

I can't imagine having non-believers in a church service who are then HAPPY with the service.

Blows my mind.

I would like to see a room full of BELIEVERS be happy in church every week let alone non believers!

I have found this to be true. Most go to please a family member, not cuase they love "church" so much.

Krispy, right on! the gathering of the saints, is for those born again.

Paul WENT OUT to preach to the lost, so did Peter and all the rest.

the gathering is for equiping the saints to GO OUT and preach to the lost. To witness in their life, the light of Jesus. And for each other to support all the saints.

And I agree, if you bring someone with you, let them come, but the services are supposed to be for the building UP OF THE BODY.

We don't witness to others, cause we rely on the Pastor's message to reach them, while we just sit there and "HOPE" that they get it. The saints get lazy, and expect the Pastors message to "do it" for them.

Someone said the other day here that it takes time and personal witness of someone's changed life and hearing the message of Christ from someone, before people start to understand and want to know Jesus.

I don't mean years, although, that is what happens a lot, but it can take months, and even years of witnessing to change a person. Make them even ready to hear the acutal message of Christ and His love for us.

[onsolidrock]

Churches that major on preaching the salvation message are preaching the "Milk of the Word". Their members show a lack of spiritual maturity and a tendency toward church fights and even church splits.

[Willo]

Originally posted by onsolidrock
Churches that major on preaching the salvation message are preaching the "Milk of the Word". Their members show a lack of spiritual maturity and a tendency toward church fights and even church splits.

I agree, there has to be a balance in the ministry, of milk, and meat.

That salvation preaching is a everyday role of a Christian, and in ministry positions, that role normally falls to someone with a call of a Evangelist on their life.

Bottom line is balance:nod

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by daveleau
I'm not trying to start an argument. My apologies. I think we have misunderstood each other, but getting irritated by what I said in response to something you wrote won't do anyone any good. :confused

Thats why I apologized... It's been a tough week for me on a personal level, and also it seems lately that some folks on here have only been half-reading my posts. Again... I kinda went overboard there, so I apologize.

Originally posted by daveleau
You said that church gatherings were meant for in-reach and not out-reach. That is a pretty strong statement. I think you may have meant that the church message should cater to the needs of the congregation, which should focus on the growth of believers while still providing for the unsaved. But, I will not put words in your mouth. The message and all church functions are meant for both believers and non-believers. Restricting unsaved people from any message is not what is intended. I already provided scripture that says that the church is meant for all (church and church gatherings are the same since the church is the people and the Good News, not the building, or something that manifests itself on Sundays and Wed nights). The church's focus is not on building a believing Christian's faith alone. It is at least equally meant to bring those to salvation. That is why most churches have alter calls and reach out each service after the meat has been dealt to the membership through the sermon. I agree that a church has many more tasks than to preach salvation, but to not provide for unbelievers at any time is missing an opportunity that we are supposed to take.

I think there is some middle ground between your perspective and mine, however I think BHiles explained my position on this very well in post #24. Paul's writings seem to indicate that while the church gatherings are not exclusive, they are to be very focused on equiping and building up the saints. I dont find one instance where Paul addresses how to handle unbelievers who come, with the exception of how the tongues was being used in the churches in Corinth.

It's interesting to me that you bring up alter calls. Alter calls for salvation happen to be something I'm agianst... and I'll tell you why. Too many times a "dicision for Christ" in those circumstances (not all the time) are based on emotions of the moment. I'm NOT saying that anyone who was saved at the alter is wrong. But I believe a decision to live for Christ is something that takes time. Jesus said to count the cost... and an unbeliever needs to be aware of what carrying the Cross of Christ involves. Also, in order to be saved, we need to have a proper perspective of our standing before God. We need to come to a realization of just how wretched and sinful we are before God. We need to realize the severity of our sins. In this "easy-believism" era that we now live in, I see a lot of "Come to Jesus, and all your troubles will go away, and He has a wonderful plan for your life". Sorry, but we dont get saved so we can get in on Jesus's wonderful plan. We get saved because we are lost and headed for hell... and we cant be rescued any other way.

I prefer the way Charles Finney led his revivals. He would actually send people home for a couple days to really seek the Lord BEFORE he would lead them to salvation.

The alter call is a new phenom, and was popularized by the Billy Graham crusades. Before that, they were practically unheard of.

If a church does have alter calls, then thats great. I dont have an issue with that... I just tend to avoid it, and would prefer to do things a little differently.

Originally posted by daveleau
If you did not mean that delineation, then I again apologize. My understanding of your ideas is limited to what is printed in your writings. If you meant something other than what you said, then disregard the above.

BHiles and I got off on the wrong foot some months ago, and we avoided each other for awhile. Now we are buds, and I really appreciate his insight and opinions. There are others on here who dont care for my opinions and my ways of expressing them... but to be honest with you, thats ok. It takes some time when your only known by your typing for people to really begin to understand where you're coming from. Dont give up on me... I'll grow on ya if you give me a chance!:thumb

[daveleau]

Originally posted by BHiles
The Evangelistic Church was NOT the New Testament Model. In the New Testament the Evangelizing was done on the street and door to door. People were getting saved and added to the church daily through this method and then they would meet with the church. The role of the church was to equip the saints so they could be effective in this.

Their are problems that arise wiuth a strictly evangelistic church. Krispy already metioned a few but there are more. For one thing it place all of the evangelism on the pastor when we are all to be witnesses for Christ, instant in season and out of season to preach the gospel of Christ. This is everyone's responsibility.

Another problem is that many times and more common than not the church will water down the gospel and/or standards in order to attract a crowd. A wrong means to a good end but the Bible distinctly warns of this. Let the Church be the Church and the world be the world and never let the Church be influenced by the world.

I agree that many churches have these problems, but this is not the majority of evangelical churches nor majority of Christians in them. For instance, I have not been to an evangelical church that did not plan meetings that would draw in the unsaved in hopes of reaching them. I also have not been to a church where the gospel was watered down, since I leave when I recognize such. I am very glad to hear my pastor speak of the sinfulness of homosexuality and other taboo ills that the Bible is plain on. These are the norms in regards to non-TV evangelistic churches who base their practices on Scripture.

Do you have scripture that shows that there was no evangelizing in the church? In my reading I have seen none of this and as I have stated before, Jesus makes it plain that church is for the ill as well as the saved.

[daveleau]

I agree that the choice for Christ is not a spur of the moment thing. It takes time because it is necessary to make a devotion of your entire life to Him. I know we had 2 youth recently that had been struggling for some time with questions. They were unsaved. After they had resolved these, they went up during an alter call and were saved. I see this as more of the norm than people being swept up in the emotion of things and making a spur of the moment choice; although I am sure this may happen.

I know that door-to-door or opportunities in the workplace are some of the major ways of proselytizing, but how do you bring those to Christ without some sort of chance to do so in church? When my wife and I were married, she had been going to a conservative diocese of the Episcopalian church. It was very rigid and very proper and without any invitations. I don't know of a single person that was saved there in the months that I attended. Since I have been at my current Baptist church, we have seen an upsurge in our youth group attendance (not because of me) and many have come to Christ- mostly during the alter calls after deliberation and questioning of the pastors.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by daveleau
Do you have scripture that shows that there was no evangelizing in the church? In my reading I have seen none of this and as I have stated before, Jesus makes it plain that church is for the ill as well as the saved.

Uhmmm... almost all of Paul's letters address churches and how they are to be conducted... and the challenge is not for us to show that there was no evangelism in the churces. The challenge is for you to show us where it is.

As for the church being for the ill... where did you get that? You are grossly wrenching something out of context. This is what that passage actually says:

Matt 9:9 As Jesus passed on from there, He saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax office. And He said to him, "Follow Me." So he arose and followed Him. 10 Now it happened, as Jesus sat at the table in the house, that behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Him and His disciples. 11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His disciples, "Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?" 12 When Jesus heard that, He said to them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."

Now... this has nothing to do with tayloring church to evangelize the unsaved every Sunday morning. Jesus is referring to who He came to save. He did not come to reach the people who think they are religious and have no need of Him. He came to reach the lost.

That verse has nothing to do with church gatherings, so please stop taking things out of context.

Churches can (and should) do things that produce evangelism... but as Paul so well told us in his letters... the purpose of the church gathering together is for the edification of the saints.

You are trying to turn this around, because so far you have produced absolutely nothing from scripture (besides an out of context passage that has nothing to do with what we're discussing) that shows that we're all wrong. So now you want us to prove our position.

Ok... I'll show you some scripture:

Galations

I & II Corinthians

1 & II Timothy

Titus

etc....

etc....

[daveleau]

Your making a delineation between church, preaching and what Jesus did in the homes of these tax collectors and sinners. The church is not the building or the preaching or anything else, it is the gathering of Christians in a place to further their relationship with God. This includes non-Christians. In Jesus' time, there was no church. He preached on the side of roads and lakes and in people's homes as well as in the synagogues. I think that is the point of misunderstanding. If a group is getting together for a picnic, the church is there. If a group is meeting in a sanctuary, the church is there. If a group is meeting in a gym while their sanctuary is being built, the church is there. If lessons and sermons never preached on salvation, Christianity would not spread and many would be lost. If a sermon does not contain the things that Paul discusses throughout the NT, then the Faithful would not grow unless they studied on their own. My verse was not taken out of context. It is used in the absolute correct context, that we should preach and teach to all levels, as there are many who need many different things. It boggles my mind that this is a matter of contention between fellow believers. Many are not driven to proselytize as society has made it such a taboo subject. Now, just as in Jesus' time, we must preach and teach to all levels.

If you don't see this, then I am sorry for you and will pray that your eyes are opened. There is nothing evil in trying to bring others into the Light. I agree that it should not be the main focus every time the church gathers, but to leave it out of the church, leaves many out of the chance for Salvation. And again, it boggles the mind that anyone would think that excluding the MEssage of God about salvation is the right thing to do.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by daveleau
Your making a delineation between church, preaching and what Jesus did in the homes of these tax collectors and sinners. The church is not the building or the preaching or anything else, it is the gathering of Christians in a place to further their relationship with God. This includes non-Christians. In Jesus' time, there was no church. He preached on the side of roads and lakes and in people's homes as well as in the synagogues. I think that is the point of misunderstanding. If a group is getting together for a picnic, the church is there. If a group is meeting in a sanctuary, the church is there. If a group is meeting in a gym while their sanctuary is being built, the church is there. If lessons and sermons never preached on salvation, Christianity would not spread and many would be lost. If a sermon does not contain the things that Paul discusses throughout the NT, then the Faithful would not grow unless they studied on their own. My verse was not taken out of context. It is used in the absolute correct context, that we should preach and teach to all levels, as there are many who need many different things. It boggles my mind that this is a matter of contention between fellow believers. Many are not driven to proselytize as society has made it such a taboo subject. Now, just as in Jesus' time, we must preach and teach to all levels.

If you don't see this, then I am sorry for you and will pray that your eyes are opened. There is nothing evil in trying to bring others into the Light. I agree that it should not be the main focus every time the church gathers, but to leave it out of the church, leaves many out of the chance for Salvation. And again, it boggles the mind that anyone would think that excluding the MEssage of God about salvation is the right thing to do.

Again, you're putting words in my mouth. Stop it. I never said anything about anything being evil.

As to your explanation about what the "church" is... are you new here or something? You're preaching to the choir if that was meant for me. I've written hundreds of posts on here discussing this very issue, and to some extent you and I agree. I actually have an issue w/churches meeting in "church buildings", so I'm probably more in tune with what a gathering is than you.

BUT... we differ on the fact that unbelievers are NOT part of the church. They may come, and hear the Word, but until they accept Christ, they are not part of the church (meaning the Body of Christ).

And as I said, churches can do things to reach out to the community. Food kitchens, evangelistic services in the park, whatever... but worship time is FOR THE BELIEVER. The Lords Supper (which was, and still is, a full course meal... not a crumb and shot glass!) is and always has been meant for the believers. Why? Fellowship, relationship building... which all falls under the name EDIFICATION.

Period.

Sorry if your mind is boggled... read the scriptures I posted. It might help.

And yes, you are taking Christ's words out of context.

We are to go to the people. Doctors used to make house calls... so should we. Jesus said we are to go into all the world and make disciples of all men. He didn't say "we should taylor our church gatherings in such a way that we attract the lost to come to us". No... He commanded us to go to them. That happens when we are equiped and strengthened.

I'm an ex-Marine... we didn't have our enemies join us at Paris Island. Bootcamp was for the express purpose of equiping and strengthen us. We went to the enemy. In my case, it was Kuwait.

(No, I'm not calling the lost our enemy... I'm only making an analogy)

[KrispyKritter]

1 Cor 14:26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. 34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.

Seems to me that Paul is addressing believers on how to conduct their gatherings. I see nothing here about unbelievers, and how to include them.

1 Cor 11:17 Now in giving these instructions I do not praise you, since you come together not for the better but for the worse. 18 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you. 20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper. 21 For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you.

23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken F34 for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes. 27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. 33 Therefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, lest you come together for judgment. And the rest I will set in order when I come.

Nope... nothing there either. In fact, I wouldnt want to be an unbeliever and take part in this... there are a lot of warnings in this passage.

[blitzkreig]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
a full course meal... not a crumb and shot glass! If I didn't think it is so funny the way you put it I think I might be offended... glad to see you don't hold your opinions back;):

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by blitzkreig
If I didn't think it is so funny the way you put it I think I might be offended... glad to see you don't hold your opinions back;):

Me? Opinionated? No way!

If you study it (which you may have, I dont know) the Lord's Supper was referring to as the Agape (Love) Feast. Scripture and history shows that they feasted when they gathered together... and partaking of the cup and bread was part of the dinner. In 1 Cor 11:20 Paul discusses this at length in a scolding way. He refers to it as the Lord's Supper, and then chews them out for being selfish and gluttenous. He chastises many of them for getting drunk on the wine, and grabbing their food before those who really need to eat. How can they all be drunk and gluttenous on a cracker and a shot glass?

1 Cor 11:20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper. 21 For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you.

[blitzkreig]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
If you study it (which you may have, I dont know) the Lord's Supper was referring to as the Agape (Love) Feast. Scripture and history shows that they feasted when they gathered together... and partaking of the cup and bread was part of the dinner. In 1 Cor 11:20 Paul discusses this at length in a scolding way. He refers to it as the Lord's Supper, and then chews them out for being selfish and gluttenous. He chastises many of them for getting drunk on the wine, and grabbing their food before those who really need to eat. How can they all be drunk and gluttenous on a cracker and a shot glass? See with only a cracker and a shot glass we have no worries about gluttony or drunkenness:D:

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by blitzkreig
See with only a cracker and a shot glass we have no worries about gluttony or drunkenness:D:

Is that your subtle way of telling me I spelled "gluttony" wrong?

[daveleau]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Again, you're putting words in my mouth. Stop it. I never said anything about anything being evil.

As to your explanation about what the "church" is... are you new here or something? You're preaching to the choir if that was meant for me. I've written hundreds of posts on here discussing this very issue, and to some extent you and I agree. I actually have an issue w/churches meeting in "church buildings", so I'm probably more in tune with what a gathering is than you.

BUT... we differ on the fact that unbelievers are NOT part of the church. They may come, and hear the Word, but until they accept Christ, they are not part of the church (meaning the Body of Christ).

And as I said, churches can do things to reach out to the community. Food kitchens, evangelistic services in the park, whatever... but worship time is FOR THE BELIEVER. The Lords Supper (which was, and still is, a full course meal... not a crumb and shot glass!) is and always has been meant for the believers. Why? Fellowship, relationship building... which all falls under the name EDIFICATION.

Period.

Sorry if your mind is boggled... read the scriptures I posted. It might help.

And yes, you are taking Christ's words out of context.

We are to go to the people. Doctors used to make house calls... so should we. Jesus said we are to go into all the world and make disciples of all men. He didn't say "we should taylor our church gatherings in such a way that we attract the lost to come to us". No... He commanded us to go to them. That happens when we are equiped and strengthened.

I'm an ex-Marine... we didn't have our enemies join us at Paris Island. Bootcamp was for the express purpose of equiping and strengthen us. We went to the enemy. In my case, it was Kuwait.

(No, I'm not calling the lost our enemy... I'm only making an analogy)

I totally agree that Communion is for believers only. Corinthians is very plain on that. But, that is also very specific about the Lords Supper, not the sermon or lessons taught.
I also agree that non-believers are not part of the church. But, I don't see anywhere in Scripture where dedicating 3 to 5 minutes at the end of a sermon or a lesson is outside of the scope of the church. As I have said, sermons should not constantly surround themselves with this. I have been to churches that never preached Salvation, and the church never grew.
Paul talks at length about how the church should conduct itself, but it is not all inclusive, either. He addresses specific problems in the Corinth church.
As for the "evil" thing, I didn't say you said that. The thing that "boggled my mind" was that we are arguing about whether a church should mention Salvation on a regular basis after the sermon. This is the central theme in Christian churches, and to not stay centered around that would leave many behind.
I agree that we should go to them, but he does not restrict our actions to only go door to door. I wish there was more door knocking going on. I have done my part, but need to do more. I have lived in this location for almost a year and have only had my door knocked on once by a Christian. I have had my door knocked on 3 times by JWs. :sad

I'll wave hello to your buds as I fly CAS for them. :) Thank you for your service to both our wonderful nation and most of all to the Gospel.

[blitzkreig]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Is that your subtle way of telling me I spelled "gluttony" wrong? :rofl

Nope :pound

But seeing everyone is in a charitable mood here is a link to a free spell-checker for Internet Explorer. A simple right-click on your post prior to sending it and the spell-checker does it's work!!! It's fabulous :):

http://www.iespell.com/

[sunshine4jesus]

savedandhappy1

if you are ever in the neighborhood, please visit.
there seem to be so few of us on this board who have the privilege of serving in a local church (the kind that has a building and a sign out front) who actually count it a joy to be there.