Bashing

[knox]

It is late and these are ony two examples I could find in a hurry, but I wanted everyone to notice that our Lord in these verses does not ask anyone what religious denomination they are. Amazing! Only requirement is belief.

I must say I worry about the bashing of other religions (Catholic, Episcopal, Luthern, etc. etc.)

I have friends who are from different religions, and when we get together, we all have one thing on our mind - our deep abiding love for Jesus Christ.

I am so glad our Lord will judge our hearts and not the building we walk into on Sunday.

I read a thread on this board today which I found disturbing and I will not mention it here.

I would like to thank Becky, who has the gift of discernment. I am so glad we have Admin or it would be chaos.


Luke 23:42

42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[6] "
43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Joel 2:32

32 And everyone who calls
on the name of the LORD will be saved;

[2bossy]

Um... that's because those denominations didn't exist then. Denominations exist because one group doesn't believe this part of the Bible or want to add to that part. No one agrees on every point, but there are many denominations that propetuate false doctrine and do NOT preach salvation. Exposing false doctrine is not bashing. Of course everything should be done in love, but the "to each his own" attitude doesn't work for me. Everyone is NOT right. Many people will be very suprised when the Lord says "Depart from me, I never knew you".

[keynote]

I did not sense a "to each his own" attitude in Knox's post. And, IHMO even if there had been denominations in that day, I don't think Jesus would have asked that question. He called Matthew the tax collector to have dinner with him...

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by knox
I must say I worry about the bashing of other religions (Catholic, Episcopal, Luthern, etc. etc.)

All we are saaaaying... is give peace a chance....

It's not labels I have an issue with... it's what does a particular denomination teach, and is it Biblical. Many are not.

Paul had a lot to say about seperating from teachers (and now institutions) that teach doctrine that is contrary to the teachings of Christ and the apostles. It's not bashing... it's contending for truth.

It's also not hateful, but in fact a very loving act, to point out error and warn against it.

[CrossLightMin]

Hey

I will add my voice to this thread...

The bashing that is going on is wrong. If we are going to contend for the faith, then we must replace the wrong understandings with the right understandings.

When one begins to reveal the wrong in a person's denomination, they begin to sytematically chip away at the faith of a person, and in these posts, there is no hope being put forth to replace that which is stolen or crushed.

I am pro wof.. they don't have it all correct.. but there is some mighty things going on in the teaching... some rank.. some great..

but that applies to all the classes..

Hear the voice of the Lord and obey Him.
But, be careful to be kind... that little lady that was just blessed by the Lord with a new computer and signed onto this page need not run into a bunch of words on a page that would destroy her faith..

Personally, I would desire that a wof area be opened for just wofrs so that those in favor of it (and there are millions) could find a home to speak and seek into... but, I suppose that would be just furthering division in the Body.

Nonetheless, be careful how you speak. Exhort.. build up.. testify of the goodness of God...

and when you contend.. contend by the Spirit of the Lord, not the tip of your sword.


His servant
stacie
:wave

[chris_h]

I firmly believe that there is not a single Baptist, Methodist, Episcopal, Lutheran, Presbyterian, or Pentacostal in heaven.


































In heaven, God views His people as one, not as a group of denominations.

[Becky]

CrossLightMin, Word of Faith is a cult, not a denomination. They are not to be promoted here. We are to judge what is being taught if it is heresy.

There is a big difference.

Edited to add:

Christine did an excellent job describing the teaching of WoF:
WoF stands for "Word of Faith", also known as "Third Wave" (Pentecostal being the 'first wave' and Charasmatic being the 'second').

Word of Faith is also known as Name-It-Claim-It or the Prosperity Gospel.

It goes beyond Charasmatic thought in that Charasmatics maintain that the Lord gives believers all of the gifts, but WoF maintains that these gifts are not under the Lord's control, they are under ours (this is where the main difference lies, and where many Charasmatic churches are on the bubble of WoF while others are not).

It teaches that man is in control of God (through Adam's dominion) and that God can't act unless our faith is pure enough to command him to (health, wealth, etc...). No such thing as "your will be done, Lord" in this belief system -- it is all about MY will be done.

It says that God is holding back a storehouse of goods, and the only reason that they aren't being released is that we don't have enough faith to command them to be given us.

Most importantly, it is not a universal doctrine. For a scriptural doctrine to be true, it must have a universal application. It mush be as equally valid in 3rd countries as it is in Suburbia. It must have an equivalent application in the ghetto as it does in the country club. It must be as viable in oppressed areas (like China and the Sudan for example) as it is in a free world (like the US and Canada for example).

Word of Faith does not have a universal application, therefore one can only conclude that it is not of God.

[keynote]

I want to respond to the earlier posts before the wof thing started... just to tie up a loose end I was thinking after krispy's post:

I do agree with speaking the truth... as the Word says - "in love". The love should be such that it is felt by the hearer if at all possible, I think. The verse number I don't have right now, -- short on time -- but the one that says "speaking the truth in love," has an interesting commentary. I read that in English there is no really accurate one-word term for the Greek word that is translated into "speaking the truth', andthat the closest English word would be 'truthing'. It would seem to me that Truthing can be done by expressing ourselves in many ways, including but not limited to the words we say.

That's why I think the person should be able to sense the love. Of course that is not always possible, but we should at least try.

[antsinmypants]

Keynote, the problem often is, that people don't want to hear the truth, no matter how a person goes around the bush to get to it-- or-- how much they sugar coat it.

That's the problem with truth.

People don't always want it.

Sometimes, peoples words and motives are very misconstrued, even when they speak in love.

[CrossLightMin]

For me....


Where I stand is this:

I read a story of a church in a third world country where the church was being invaded by the governmental spies. This church knew that there was an informant, thus, the minister told the congregation that whoever would meet togther next service would need to obtain the location of the meeting place by/through prayer. The Lord would reveal the location to those who could hear His voice.

All but one showed up.. that person could not hear the voice of God.

I take a serious look at those persons who say they hear the Lord's voice. I hear the Lord and test what I hear. I hear some of the same things that others hear, and this gives me comfort.

The bottom line for me is that if a minister says they walk and talk with Jesus, and Jesus walks and talks with them daily.. or someting of that sort, then is it really possible? If so, then is Jesus giving His loving approval of something that is being said? Or.. just basic.. if this person, this minister, or worker, or whoever is friends with Jesus, I want to be very careful not to oppose this person, be it baptist, presy... catholic...

And I do not want to be used to tear down something the Lord is building in a person...

If we tear down every false religion, then we are going to be left with no religion.. which is the point in the first place.. there must be relationship with Jesus.. we must build each other up and into the Lord.

Just please, if you are going to post a "take" from someone.. remember to "give" hope and strength too.

His servant
stacie

[Becky]

Just remember stacie, not all preacher who claim this are listening to our Lord. When you hear of stories like that get details and confimation. A lot of those stories are just that; stories.

We are to be Bereans. I do not take everyone's word be it a Pastor or Preacher or Priest until I see if it matches up with God's Word: the Bible. That comes first before the words of man.

[antsinmypants]

Originally posted by Becky
We are to be Bereans. I do not take everyone's word be it a Pastor or Preacher or Priest until I see if it matches up with God's Word: the Bible. That comes first before the words of man.

:nod :thumb


I don't know why, but this came to mind:

Eze 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take [any] person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

[KrispyKritter]

Believe me... no matter how loving your words are, when you point out error to people, and try to show them the truth... usually it is perceived as an attack. Not very often are people willing to listen to the truth. If they were... everyone would be saved. Paul warned that people are more interested in surrounding themselves with teachers who tickle their ears instead of giving them the truth. Sometimes the truth is hard to swallow... especially the whole counsel of God. I'd like to think that I am always open to hearing where I may be in error... but quite honestly... I'm not always. But one thing does happen: it sparks interest in me. And then I usually will study a topic, and I cant tell you the number of times I've changed my mind. I may not have come to the truth had someone not challenged me, even tho at the time I didn't perceive them as being loving. But they were... and I thank God for it.

[Jael]

If we tear down every false religion, then we are going to be left with no religion..

:confused :confused :confused

...if this person, this minister, or worker, or whoever is friends with Jesus, I want to be very careful not to oppose this person, be it baptist, presy... catholic...

Even a friend of Jesus can be wrong...

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

[Ynott]

:tape

:popcorn

[DeeLeeKay]

:cry :cry :cry :cry :cry

[CrossLightMin]

Hey again,


Yes, even a friend of Jesus can be wrong.. and Jesus will lead that person to where they can receive the truth and be "righted" and since that person is a friend of Jesus, there is a heart to be righted.. amen to that.

I agree, even the most sweet loving words will not be received when a person wants to believe the lie.. and there is usually an unteachable spirit within the person.. although, sometimes, confusion can come in so fast and make the person run deeper into the lie just to hang on to sanity. The Lord's truth has never been accepted by the spirit of the world, nor never will be, and His servants, and watchmen will always face rejection.. and Yes.. absolutely, we must speak and warn, but sometimes posts have a way of addressing to general of an area (Binny Hinn is a false prophet) thus, someone who has just been blessed through that ministry is sanctioned and unable to participate in these discussion because there is a war going on...


Look, if i had just been saved at a Benny Hinn or Joyce meeting and I came into some of these threads.. I would crash.. I would not know what to believe.. I would doubt my salvation because everyone is an expert and all the experts disagree.. this is nothing new, but somehow, as we are warning others (which we MUST) do in these end times, we must pay careful attention to the Holy Spirit and how He says to speak to the issue. We can not just sit down at the keyboard and spout off what we think we know.. because even us, who are studied very deeply, will change some of our understandings as we grow..

Remember, if you are lead by the Holy Spirit to tear down, then He will also lead you to build up... don't leave someone dismayed...


His servant,
stacie

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by Becky
We are to be Bereans. I do not take everyone's word be it a Pastor or Preacher or Priest until I see if it matches up with God's Word: the Bible. That comes first before the words of man. :nod

[Ynott]

Originally posted by DeeLeeKay
:cry :cry :cry :cry :cry

Yup! It never stops. Must be another major birth pang, Dee.

Hang in there. This too shall pass. (((((DeeLeeKay)))))

:tape

[DeeLeeKay]

Thank You, Ynott, I needed that hug. It has been so very hard lately.

[Mea]

I am pro wof.. they don't have it all correct.. but there is some mighty things going on in the teaching... some rank.. some great..

I agree with ya Stacie :thumb

[DeeLeeKay]

This is where I think we need to take a pause and think about what it means to love.

1 Corinthians 13


Love

1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
9For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.
11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.
12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.


I think there are two ways to spread truth. One is in condemnation(which is what I see going on here). And, the second is doing it in love.


How do we spread truth in Love?

[antsinmypants]

From an online theological dictionary:

Agape
Christian's Love in the ancient Greek language is "agape." Actually, there are three words for Love in Greek: agape, eros and phileo. Eros is physical desire. It is where we derive the English word erotic. Phileo is to regard with affection. Both words are common in classical Greek literature. However, agape was not introduced as a word until the 1st century AD in the writings of the New Testament. Since there was no word to describe the complexity of God's Love in the Greek, Paul, in his various epistles, coined the term "agape." Agape means "Divine Love". In the 13th chapter of 1 Corinthians, Paul both introduces agape and gives its clear definition.

When translating the Greek into English, the King James translators upon coming to agape, God's Love, often chose the English word "charity." This was meant to reinforce the idea of agape being a selfless, giving love. God's Love is unselfish. It is generous, kind, peaceable, trusting, temperate, patient and humble. God's Love is everything good. It consists of pure things that are lacking in the imperfection of mankind.


Remember also that in the Agape love that G-d has for us, he also sometimes he chastens each and every one of us for wrongs that we do... until we change them.

Remember that even Paul in Agape love chastened Peter.

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

Sometimes in Agape love we have to shun someone until they repent -- as in 1 Corinthians 5.

We're told if we have a problem with a believer that there is a set standard how to deal with it.

Approach the person
If they don't listen, approach with witness (two witnesses)
Still if not, to go to the elders.
If they still won't and it's a critical thing, they're to be "cast out".


Sometimes words are perceived as harsh when they aren't.

[DeeLeeKay]

Ants,

Where does the Bible tell us that God condemns us?

2631 - Greek

2631 katakrima kat-ak'-ree-mah

from 2632; an adverse sentence (the verdict):--condemnation.

I will agree that God disciplines us for our own good, but is discipline condemnation?


Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

3809 - Greek

3809 paideia pahee-di'-ah

from 3811; tutorage, i.e. education or training; by implication, disciplinary correction:--chastening, chastisement, instruction, nurture.

[antsinmypants]

chasten was the word I was looking for

[Becky]

knox, I want to take the time out to thank you for your kind words. I don't deserve them. I appreciate all the posters here who look to God's Word for Truth and not to man. (((HUGS)))


CrossLightMin and Mae, I have questioned whether anyone who came to know Christ during a Benny Hinn crusade has come to know another Christ instead. They teach a little truth and a lot of heresy in their crusades.

The point being... we are to question anyone's teaching no matter how famous or rich they are. If it does not line up with scritpure (and I mean the way they twist and leave out scripture and take it out of context) then you bet we are going to bring it out in the open.

:thumb God's Word is more important than Benny or Joyce's words.

[CrossLightMin]

Hey

Oh no, I was not saved under that man, benny.. no way.
The first time I saw him on tv I turned him off and walked away just a squaking about how much of a disgrace he was to Christianity.

It took the Lord a long time before He got me to start studying the crusades... Every day for a year and half, video and play them.

I did not like it at first until I started studying the videos.. not one, not two.. but a years' worth.

I would play them and replay them when a spirit moved someone off their feet..
I had several examples of where it was Obvious it was a spirit, and not man...
At that time I had trouble believing in "spirits" in general.

Next.. I was led to test the fruits...

that was were I lost the battle.. Our Lord Jesus is given all the glory...over and over.. people were healed... and Jesus was given the glory...

The biggest thing I learned through Benny was that the Lord moves in great ways.. He is a big God who cares about our pains, and I learned that He wants to be a big God.

No matter the name of the minister, big name or little name, when someone is saved in that ministry, if you destroy their faith in that person, the young christian will be dismayed ...

Teach, compare, share,... be careful not to tear down without building someone up..

There is no reason that we can not share things with each other and help each other grow.. but not at the expense of bashing a big name.. even so, they are not here to defend themselves. Take the topic and compare scriptures at an easy and simple level of instruction so that the well educated and grammar school grads can all participate and grow..

break the scriptures down... compare them with other scriptures.. and so on... I have seen it done and it takes a strong administrator to keep it under control.. but my oh my.. it is so wonderful.

Anyway...



His servant
stacie

[Becky]

I'm sorry to tell you this but there was not one case of anyone's finger or leg brought back in any of those "healings". There is not even one case that has been confirmed by a doctor.

It's all in the mind in Benny's case. :sigh

[2bossy]

I posted late last night and wanted to clarify... we should not BASH other religions. This I agree with, as long as we're talking about a true definition of bashing. But as ants said, sometimes you try and tell people the truth in love and they yell bashing.

Its hard to think of any examples without picking out one denomination to "bash" :D: so if you know who I'm talking about shhhhh.... I know a guy who loves God and has dedicated his life to him - only problem is, he thinks that being saved is only the beginning of salvation, and that he must do lots of good works to make it to heaven.

If you asked this guy, do you love Jesus? He would say AMEN! But in my opinion, this guy is headed to hell because he's counting on his works to get him to heaven. So do you just say -Yep, I love Jesus too! and be on your way?

[savedandhappy1]

You know that the good Lord didn't heal anyone in any of Benny Hinn's crusades? How do you know that the Lord didn't heal anyone? Please let me know.
With me the vote is still out on Benny Hinn. I do love the way he always gives God the glory. Every time someone says I just knew if you came I would be healed, he tells them he didn't heal them it was GOD. He tells them he didn't need to come for them to be healed.
So please tell me how you know that no one has been healed in any of his crusades.

:confused
Love in Christ,
Kathy

[Becky]

Long story on Benny Hinn. Do a thread search and you will find ample facts on the man.

Here is a site with plentiful info on him.
http://www.bereanfaith.com/heresy.php?

And when he comes in with the spotlight pointed at him, dressed in white, choir singing, "How great Thou Atr", who is getting the glory? :twitch

[blitzkreig]

Mat 7:13-15
(13) Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
(14) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
(15) Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

[LaMontre]

This is a good thread........

Paul made it very clear about the importance of "the doctrine".

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

1 Tim 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

And John was very stern;

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

So would we call this a license to "bash"? Would one consider slamming the door in the face of a heritick "bashing" his religion?

There are many who believe in the wrong Jesus. Some present him as being "a man who became a god" others present him as being "the archangel gabriel". Some present His mother as being a necessary part of the atonement. All of this is not the same Jesus that is presented in the bible. Therefore we are to "reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine."

I would say we are perfectly justified in being just as fervent, just as angry, and just as forward in presenting the RIGHT Jesus as truth, as those who try and present the WRONG Jesus.

We must know him.

[CrossLightMin]

To those who oppose the Gospel, Paul said let them be accursed. But, for those who are still young and growing, learning, and being molded... do not let the tip of your sword be caught with their blood.

Today, we know in part, and no one "group" of people have got all the answers all laid out and in perfect order, never have, and I doubt never will untill our Lord and Master sits us all down and explains to us what we need to understand more ....

If yo want to raise your voice against a group... that is between you and the Lord. He, Himself opposes things and leads us to do the same, but we must not take it upon our selfs to be a crusader when we are yet called to study and learn.

Jesus said that to the crowd, if you do not believe Me, My words, then at least believe the miracles I do... His interest is in saving people, that is why His blood is on the Mercy Seat.

With the way that some of these threads bash people, we have more "sheep" running for cover than we should like to have... we should present the truth in a way that peaks their interest, what is it that we have that they want.. what is it in us that will lead them out from behind the bushes and into the light? Determine what that might be and then follow it faithfully. Don't be caught having to explain how you were contending for the faith when the Lord asks us about the blood that is on the tip of our sword.. our brothers' and sisters' blood.

After years and years, even the greatest theologians still do not agree on issues... and even now, as the internet has opened more and more to us all.. are we so great as the theologians? Are we being true to God or to our own "cause" to defend the faith?

In the mulititude of many words there is sin is found...

Fight the fight of a good warrior.. but know your enemy.. and beware of friendly fire.


His servant,
stacie

[Becky]

And also be aware of false prophets and teachers. We are to point out their heresy and spread the Word of God. Do not let a preacher or a speaker sway you with soothing words and speak another Gospel when the Word of God, the Bible, speaks the true Gospel.

[Crescendo]

:tape while I remove the plank from my own eye...then I'll begin judging the hearts of others.

[Hutton]

Wow! This is good!

Here is what I am 'Hearing' on this thread..
We MUST help our brothers and sisters to beware of the wolves in sheeps clothing. And I agree.
Also I am 'hearing' to be careful how we write our words. People can not see the love in our eyes for our sisters and brothers in Christ. So we have to learn how to show it in our words on our posts.
Lord help me type it in love!!! :):

[Becky]

Crescendo, we cannot let false teaching slide. We are called to be Bereans in the word. If someone preached that Jesus Christ himself were to appear at one of their rallies on a certain date and the Lord didn't, we are to point out that this person is a false prophet.

It's cut and dry.

The Truth needs to get out (God's Word) and false teaching needs to be shown as just that: false teaching.

There is a big difference using the plank in the eye scenerio. It does not apply to pointing out false and heretical teaching.

[Jael]

Originally posted by Hutton
Wow! This is good!

Here is what I am 'Hearing' on this thread..
We MUST help our brothers and sisters to beware of the wolves in sheeps clothing. And I agree.
Also I am 'hearing' to be careful how we write our words. People can not see the love in our eyes for our sisters and brothers in Christ. So we have to learn how to show it in our words on our posts.
Lord help me type it in love!!! :):

I can agree with both sides of what you are saying here...there's no conflict between truth and love, if our motivation is right. :):

[pantha_luvr]

For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. The Son of man came eating and drinking,
and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of
her children. -Matt. 11:18-19

I have real mixed emotions when it comes to all that is said about the Word Of Faith Movement. It is easy to pick out those who have fallen prey to ego, self promotion, and twisting scripture to fit their need raise their particular standard of living. But, there are many in the movement who are not guilty of any of the above.

People are being saved, lives are being changed, and the Word Of God is being proclaimed without apology in many of their churches.

I wonder why those who come to this board who attend Word Of Faith churches do not spend any time pointing out the "lapses" of Non-Word Of Faith Preachers...

Do you remember watching Jerry Falwell going down the water-slide...trying to raise money to keep PTL afloat???

Has anyone asked why Charles Stanley is still pastoring a church after having gone through a divorce???

Have any of them mentioned that in a 1993 survey by the Journal of Pastoral Care, 14% of Southern Baptist ministers surveyed said they had engaged in inappropriate sexual behavior, 70% said they knew a minister who had and 80% said they lacked written guidelines.

I doubt that they have....and I doubt that they will.

There are more important matters at hand...reaching a lost and dying world and drawing closer to the God we are supposed to be serving.

All of the "bashing" that goes on just shows the "lateness" of the hour.

The Admin. was right...Word of Faith should not be promoted here...neither should any other denomination!

[Crescendo]

Originally posted by Becky
Crescendo, we cannot let false teaching slide. We are called to be Bereans in the word. If someone preached that Jesus Christ himself were to appear at one of their rallies on a certain date and the Lord didn't, we are to point out that this person is a false prophet.

It's cut and dry.

The Truth needs to get out (God's Word) and false teaching needs to be shown as just that: false teaching.

There is a big difference using the plank in the eye scenerio. It does not apply to pointing out false and heretical teaching.

I'm sorry you feel this was directed at you. Perhaps I should have bold faced the I. I'm not pointing fingers, just not getting involved. I haven't ever heard of anyone saying the Lord would appear at a gathering (save the links, I haven't the time) but neither have I heard of a gathering of believers where the Lord wasn't present. That seems pretty cut and dry also. :wave

[Becky]

Crescendo, I'm sorry. I should have been more specific. The prophecy was that the Lord Jesus himself was going to "physically" appear at the rally in Africa. It never happened.

pantha_luvr, there is a very big difference in "bashing" and pointing out scriptural heresy. If you would take the time to study the facts you will see what I am referring to.

Once again I am going to post what Christine was kind enough to print on her web site about Word of Faith. It is a cult, not a denomination.

The Word of Faith doctrines are typified by gnostic teachings such as Tritheism (the anti-trinitarian belief in 3 separate Gods), self-empowerment, placing God under man's control, elevating man and minimizing God, and the doctrine of God's kingdom on earth and not in heaven.

Compiled on these pages are infamous quotes and teachings by various Third Wave (Word of Faith) teachers, or as I like to call them, Laodicea's Leadership.

Read on, for Benny Hinn, Paul and Jan Crouch, Kim Clement, Creflo Dollar, Rick Joyner, Marilyn Hickey and others - "In their own words".

If anyone has documentation of repentance for any of these blasphemous teachings, PLEASE forward that documentation to me!

2Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

No self respecting heresy hunter should be without such a reference

http://www.bereanfaith.com/heresy.php?


Once again, Word of Faith is a cult not a denomination. Be Bereans and do your homework. :thumb

[blitzkreig]

2Ti 4:1-4
(1) I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
(2) preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
(3) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
(4) and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

[knox]

"Never, never pin your whole faith on any human being:
not if he is the best and wisest in the whole world.
There are lots of nice things you can do with sand;
but do not try building a house on it."
Mere Christianity
C.S. Lewis

[CrossLightMin]

Pantha:


You Said:



I have real mixed emotions when it comes to all that is said about the Word Of Faith Movement. It is easy to pick out those who have fallen prey to ego, self promotion, and twisting scripture to fit their need raise their particular standard of living. But, there are many in the movement who are not guilty of any of the above.

People are being saved, lives are being changed, and the Word Of God is being proclaimed without apology in many of their churches.

I wonder why those who come to this board who attend Word Of Faith churches do not spend any time pointing out the "lapses" of Non-Word Of Faith Preachers..."


I Say:

I agree. There are many things that I can not handle in some of these churches. In my opinion, many of the people, (Lord help my judgement here) who go to those big mega churches, who walk up the rows to the front in order to put money there on the altar ... are being "milked." But, not as much by man as by God himself. He sees the hearts and the motives that are behind each and every dollar.

For every dollar that is given from a heart that pure, there will be a return from the Lord, but, for every heart that marches up to the front in the "best suit" all starched .. and the most crisp dollar bill for all to see... with a motive.. "bless me.." "see what I am doing..." and who refuses to bend their knees in humility to the King... where it is a show of pride... where it is a works that satisfies the soul and quote "makes them in right standing" with the Lord because they have "given" and now He, God, must bless them with the bestest car, house, ect....

for this... I weep. Their hearts are far from God. The Lord will take their money and put it into the missions... but it will bear no fruit of righteousness for the giver who has given with a heart of greed.

I also have had great agnony over the "lack" of repentance being preached. And I hope and I pray that the people who lead the sinner to Christ are not just so fearful that to admit they are "worthless" before our God that they would refuse to instruct the truth of man's total depravity before a Holy God. .... yet, we die and we become new creature.. Sons and Daughters of the King, joint heirs with Jesus Christ, He fears not to call us brothers and sisters... Where there is a death at the cross.. there also must be a resurrection.... "walk in the newness of life".

How about Judgement.. is God going to judge the world? The USA?

I must have cried for a year at the neglect of the wof teaching surrounding judgement... the lack thereof...
I remember the pain of crying out to the Lord of how I felt I would have to rewrite the whole old testament if I believed what was being said about judgement..

A strong thread in the wof denomination (depsite what you believe, it is a denomination.. see the yellow pages) is that God has not raised His hand to smite anyone.. okay. then define it this way.. allowed to be smitten.. or relax the tense of the greek and hebrew.. or change the word.. or or or..

But it says in Genesis.. about the Flood.. "I, even I, Myself.. have sent this flood.." (not a direct quote.. it is very late here)
But, now, there is a strong wave of teaching in the wof circles that is bringing judgement back into the teaching... You can hear them say..."the Bible says.. if you obey my voice.. if you diligently seek Me... then you will find Me.. and they say.... "If you obey then these blessings will come upon you... "

My heart is broken for all those in the years before who believed without doing their own praying and studying, and for me it was hard to believe something in opposition to the teaching I was being taught.. down right war.... so now, we have some out there who are walking around, who have not studied for themselves, walking around with thoughts that they do not need to repent.. that they will not be judged ... that satan can not touch them... that they have the authority over the demons... ect... without the full understanding..

But, on the other hand.. I will not go back to the small fundamental church I used to go to where the work of the Lord is dead.. where the works of the Holy Spirit is called of the devil, where self serving agendas are being the item and not the purposes of the Lord... I went there to hide from the Holy Spirit and His charaismatic people.. (guess He found me anyway)...

I also have a problem when the wof'ers teach that eveyone is anointed.. not sure how to define my objection, but I just do not see the "power" that Jesus spoke of in Acts on all the wof'ers that are teaching this... most of it seems like it is a sales gimmick to attract the followers into a "stay here, follow this way.. and you will be stronger than anyone around you..." just to keep them.. I even ... hold on.. yep.. going to say this... I even disagree with Hagain and Copeland on this "anointing" teaching.

I personally am more inclined to follow the way of the old pentecostals and preach.. "tarry until you receive" but I am still in prayer about it.

Nonetheless, as you have in every denomiation, you have those who pursue the faith to see what they can gain, or how to appease a big God without really dieing to self.. without really changeing so much.. or without really having to say yes to going to Africa if God asks...


And one more thing... again I will resay... if we destroy the hero's that these 'younger in the walk with Jesus' have how will we account for it to the Lord when we account for every word we have said? There are 14,000 - 25,000 that go to the crusades every month that Benny has, and when he is overseas, there are millions... and, if when they are excited, and hanging on every word this man teaches. if we march out there in the name of "contending for the faith" and bash them over the head with a theoloical bat, who's voice will the Lord Jesus hear as they hide behind the bushes scared and lost? I believe that many will out grow the teachings of Benny and others... only because each ministry has a part... just a part.. Jesus has the whole.

Teach them how to pursue Jesus.

I am not going to "promote" wof'rs, or baptists, or any of these .. I agree with that statement... Personally, I am seeking understanding of the Covenant...
I have lost several ships trying to cross over the sea of legalism vs grace.. ect... I have just completed a new ship and headed out across these seas to pick up my cargo of understanding.. again. I pray for this understanding and hope that i do not become ship wrecked again...

I close again.. remember. lets
be careful not to thrust our swords into a brother or sister..


His servant,
stacie

:wave

[pantha_luvr]

As I have stated before, I attend a that most of you would describe as being WOF.

For the past two years we have given over 29% of our total income to foreign missions.

In the almost three years I have been attending, there has not been one service where someone did not come to Christ!

People don't just "join" the church. Before you can be considered a member, you must attend eight weeks of classes that teach what we believe and why we believe it.

A couple of years ago, a Lutheran pastor visited our church...while on his way, with his family, to start a new work in Arkansas. I was delighted when our pastor announced we would be giving this man and his family $1000.00 to help in meeting their expenses in traveling and getting set up in their new home.

Again, I will say that I do not agree with some of the things that go on in many of the churches and ministries that make up the WOF movement. But, to make a blanket statement that all WOF ministries are a cult...is simply not true.

I have done my homework. But, I refuse to allow myself to be put in a box , doctrinally, to satisfy those who are actively involved in heresy hunting.

I do not believe in following a man. I have seen what that can do. On of my greatest heroes, as a young christian, was Jack Hyles. I have personally witnessed the chaos that following a man can cause...even those who "supposedly" line up with scripture.

"Where He leads me, I will follow!"

Be Blessed....

[RedBall]

You don't have to shave your head and give all your possessions to the Grand Poobah for something to be a cult. Any religion that teaches false doctrine is by definition a cult.

[Becky]

Exactly RedBall. :thumb Word of Faith is a cult and you have to wonder if it is the real Jesus they are accepting as their Christ. They prey on people. :tsk

[BarbT]

Exposing false prophets

Exposing heresy & error that creeps into the Body

Examining all teachings against scripture as Bereans

All will be called *BASHING* at one point or another. I heard it tossed around so many times in Apologetics I've lost count. Don't let that word derail you when it's directed at you. Don't let it intimidate you into silence. That's exactly what it's designed to do. ;):

[pantha_luvr]

"Word of Faith is a cult and you have to wonder if it is the real Jesus they are accepting as their Christ. They prey on people. "

Good Grief!!!!!

The Church of Christ...that teaches "baptismal regeneration"....are the people they reach accepting the real Jesus?

The churches that used the busses to "boost" their attendance in the early seventies....who, at invitation time, simply told the kids to bow their heads and "repeat after me"...those accused of promoting "easy believeism...were the children they reached accepting the real Jesus.

I guess our yearly trips to Mardi Gra....taking Jesus to the devil's playground....telling the kids on Bourbon Street about a God who loves them and a Jesus that can Save them....I wonder if we were offering them the real Jesus????

And I guess the projects we have gone into....doing little girls hair so that they would look pretty when they started school....and the muslim mothers that wanted to know about the God we so love...that would inspire us to go into the projects and love those kids....I guess we should carefully ponder whether or not it was the Real God...and the Real Jesus that motivated us with a desire to reach them.

I'm sorry, but in my opinion, that kind of comment "reeks" of religiosity...with a little stupidity thrown in.

Bash away, bash away, bash away all!

I'll find another forum...there is no sense in arguing.

Be a Berean...but you might want to pray for a little discernment...so you will recognize who is and who is not following the "real Jesus"....before you make such blanket statements!

[Becky]

If you want to call it "Bashing"... I call it information. Do you understand what Word of Faith teach? I'm not bashing a denomination, I'm informing people of a cult.

Here again is what they believe:

The Word of Faith doctrines are typified by gnostic teachings such as Tritheism (the anti-trinitarian belief in 3 separate Gods), self-empowerment, placing God under man's control, elevating man and minimizing God, and the doctrine of God's kingdom on earth and not in heaven.

from Christine's web site:
Compiled on these pages are infamous quotes and teachings by various Third Wave (Word of Faith) teachers, or as I like to call them, Laodicea's Leadership.

Read on, for Benny Hinn, Paul and Jan Crouch, Kim Clement, Creflo Dollar, Rick Joyner, Marilyn Hickey and others - "In their own words".

If anyone has documentation of repentance for any of these blasphemous teachings, PLEASE forward that documentation to me!

2Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

No self respecting heresy hunter should be without such a reference

[cayte]

Should we "bash" other denominations?

Well, I think the surplus of denominations out there are confusing to say the least. We aren't being effective witnesses quibbling amongst ourselves.

Bashing others, might look like cat fighting to the unbeliever, so I don't condone bashing at any level. Explain the differences, back up one's reasons for not believing the same as so and so here, and such and such there, from Biblical texts and prayer, when someone outside any faith asks.

AS for being cultish. outsiders say Christianity is cultish. So very careful descriptions of what is cultish is necessary. That is what I was taught anyway. I was taught to pray, read my Bible, and trust in God. God would tell me what was cultish or not, as long as I was walking with Him (reading my Bible, reflecting on what I read, remembering what I have been taught, and above all, trusting in God first.)

[CrossLightMin]

Cayte,

Well said.





His servant,
stacie

[TonyLee]

Originally posted by Crescendo
:tape while I remove the plank from my own eye...then I'll begin judging the hearts of others.

If there is someone you know spreading a false gospel that good works will get someone to heaven, or any other number of false ways, do we pat him or her on the back and say there is no one way to God? Do we say that he/she is okay, and we are okay so as not to possibly offend? I do not mean being hateful about it either, but in a kind way.

edit to add: I mean to show the person the truth in a loving manner.

[ballfan]

interesting thread. it appears that bashing is in the eye of the beholder.

if i think you're wrong then i'm bashing you.

if you think i'm wrong then you're bashing me.

and making any kind of decision on right or wrong is judging.



ballfan

[Crescendo]

TonyLee - I was simply shutting my mouth to the subject. I'm working on my own self at this point, not working to split hairs with others. Sorry it didn't come across that way.

[Becky]

Splitting hairs would be weather or not to have a band during worship, baptizing for membership, wearing robes or suits to preach....

Informing people about a cult that teaches hereasy is another thing. Directly taking verses out of context and telling you that you are sick because you don't have enough faith is not splitting hair. Saying they believe there is a 9 part god-head is not splitting hairs. And reporting that they are telling you that you are a little god is not splitting hairs.

We are to point out this type of heresy. If it directly is against God's Word it needs to be pointed out. There have been many who came to this board intrenched with this cult and read the truth about it and came back to God.

God is good all the time. :thumb

[ronredeem]

Pantha-Luvr and CrossLightMin,

I was really blessed by your comments. Just continue to led by the Spirit of God and the Word will always line up. You know the scribes, lawyer, Pharisee and etc. studied the word but they could not recognizes Jesus when He showed up. Why? Because they could not or would not hook up to the Spirit of God.

[lighthouse]

WOF=CULT


I KNOW I WAS THERE

[pantha_luvr]

The following is taken from our church's website:

What we believe.


The Scripture Inspired (2 Tim.3:16-17)

The One True God (1 John 5:7)

Jesus Christ is fully God (John 1:1-12)

Mankind willfully sinned against God (Rom.5:12)

Salvation through Grace (Eph.2:8)

The Ordinances of the Church

Baptism in Water

Holy Communion

The Baptism in the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:1-4)

The Spirit-Filled Life (Gal.5:16)

The Gifts and the Fruit of the Spirit (1Cor.12:1-11; Gal.5:22-23)
Sanctification. Living a holy life and growing constantly in the Faith.

The Church and Its Mission. Reach the lost, worship the Lord, and build a unified body of believers mature in faith and knowledge of God's Word. (Matt.28:19-20)

Divine Healing (1 Pt.2:24; James 5:14-14)

The Blessed Hope. The soon return of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor.15:51-53)

The Millennial Reign of Christ (Rev.20:1-6)

The Final Judgment (Matt.25:46; Rev.20:11-15)

The New Heavens and the New Earth (2 Pt.3:13; Rev.21-22)

Unity, Liberty, and Love. In essentials there must be unity, in non-essentials - liberty, and in all things - love.

[CrossLightMin]

:wave

What a sweet and wonderful encouragement, thank you.

Truely it is a walk of being led by the Holy Spirit. For example, I had closed the door in my heart to this thread and gone on.. I just considered that there were better things to do.

I clicked on the webcast of one of my favorite teachers and was digging deep into study. I took a break and went outside to talk to the Lord, just sort of lifting my voice up to Him.

When I came back in, I was led to return to this page... ha.. blessings.. an encouragement. The Lord is so good to us.

And Panth... you are a stick in the mud.. so stick fast... please don't let the waters wash you away either. I am so saddened to hear some of the things being said between "Christians." I am even more saddened by those who have been "delivered" from "wrong teachings" even to the point that the calls on their lives have been aside.

And, to be called a cult.. that can hardly be an insult, for the early church fathers were all called cults. When the Lord first called me into service as a watchman, I thought He meant to "contend" for the faith. I spent several years studying apologetics. I learned one thing.. no one has it all correct. The Lord led me to a greater understanding of what He wanted for my life as a watchman, and is teaching me not to take up the "sword of the Holy Spirit" and thrust it into a brother and sister. He says just speak the truth as it is revealed with understanding and then go on. "If they have ears to hear, let them come to you."

And to all of you who have been enlightened and delivered from a word of faith church.. to whom did you go? and whom did you leave behind. If you found the truth, what of all the good people who were in the congregations you left behind. Why not stay and let the Lord continue to purge out the bad and water the good? Did you rush into a more "stable" institution that was socially accepted? And what teachings do they have that some heresy hunter will find and cast down? Do you not think that the Catholics have hersey? How about the Baptists who refuse prophecy? And the pentecostals? What would be their fatal downfall for you?

When you over generalize any body of believers and begin to destroy them with bashing... I remind you.. if you are chasing young believers into the thicket to hide and if you are drawing the blood of saints with your sword.. then it will be their voices that our Lord Jesus hears from behind those bushes as they cry for help... how will you explain being the cause of their cries.

The bible tells us.. be kind
You can tell me you think I am wrong.. show me the verse

But, I have no ears to hear the voices that bash my faith or the faith of those not as strong

So, as it has been said, bash away. bash away...
I think I will bow my head and pray
And there will come a day
When in the night you hear Him say
"Might it be... there is something, dear...
You fought the things that brought you fear.
But rest My child and know I'm near."



His servant,
stacie




:thumb

[BHiles]

Originally posted by pantha_luvr

I do not believe in following a man. I have seen what that can do. On of my greatest heroes, as a young christian, was Jack Hyles. I have personally witnessed the chaos that following a man can cause...even those who "supposedly" line up with scripture.

"Where He leads me, I will follow!"


Regardless of your failure to follow Christ and not follow a man, You must blame those who followed him or anyone else to the extent that would elevate them above Christ. I have more reason than most anyone to exhault Jack Hyles. He was personally responsible to giving the Gospel to my father in his soulwinning in 1960. As a result many, many people from my family are serving God today as pastors and missionaries because of his obedience to God's word. I have seen many who blame Jack Hyles for this although all I ever heard from the pupit was Christ glorified. For anyone that placed their faith in the mere man of Jack Hyles were doing just that and that is their own fault. If he were here to tell you he would and he did.

[Teresa]

Well that was all a very good read. I usually jump in to any wof discussion and since this thread is mostly that I will say my peace.

I do not see the bashing that some of you claim goes on. I see sincere Christians trying to help other sincere Christians to know the truth. Someone said that we only know truth in part. I am sure that is true in many cases. However is there not one central truth? Isn't there one core doctrine and one true Jesus?

Knowing this to be true is what helped me to see the false teachings of wof. And I was very much into wof. I have spoken of this in great detail in other threads so I won't go into it again. Lets just say that some of us our able to come out with out faith intact and others are not. My sister would have been better off if she would have never listened to these people. She was not grounded enough in the Word and has been deeply hurt and now stuggles with her relationship with God.

No the worst thing an unbeliever or new Christian can do is to sit under the teachings of false doctrines and twisting scriptures. I agree that many do come to the Lord through these teachers but I also know that many have their minds so messed up that it is very difficult to get over it.

Becky what a blessing you are to this board. It is my prayer to become a true berean of the Word. I have learned so much by being here and I continue to grow in knowledge and truth daily.

[pilgrimgal]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CrossLightMin

rse

But, I have no ears to hear the voices that bash my faith or the faith of those not as strong

So, as it has been said, bash away. bash away...


Like Teresa's sister, I would have been better off if I hadn't been exposed to the "name it and claim it, blab it and grab it" philosophy. But as Stacie has eloquently put it, she doesn't want to listen to anything that might make her re-examine her doctrine.
So I'll pretty much:tape


The only thing I want to add is that expressing and opinion in and of itself is not bashing nor is presenting the facts or scripture
that lead you to that opinion. And that is my opinion. However, one of the reasons I seldom come to RR any more is that any time
someone disagrees with someone or something it is being called bashing.

[CrossLightMin]

:wave

It begins with our Lord. He choses a man or woman to carry His Word and instruct those who need fuller understanding of Him and His ways.

The man or woman then makes the choice to answer this call and therein abide or not. Then begins the instruction by the Holy Spirit to teach this vessel the ways of God on earth.

As the man or woman matures and the Lord sees this person fit and equiped to now teach, our Lord opens the doors for the sheep to come in and learn of God.

There are certain fruits of these ministers that are seen and copied by those who would ascend into the position of leadership without the call of God, or too early before training is completed, or even just deciding to cut classes the Holy Spirit is given just to advance themselves to the head of the class.

Many of these "leaders" see a good thing that God is doing on earth and pick up the lingo and methods and implant them within their churches, but, like the false prophets, who will tell you how nice a job you are doing, how great a life the Lord has for you just where you are, and then tell you how great a future you have.. ect... there is no sustance in the words or teaching.

satan is very good at his counterfeiting... he can be the greatest wof'r there is, the most "poor" or the bestest "rich".. anything to pursade the christian to throw the baby out with the bath water.

For those of us who have delivered from satan's counterfeit teaching, we must thank the Lord for His faithfulness. But, there is a lot of counterfeit teaching out there, lets get delivered from it all and continue to seek the truth. Jesus said the way is narrow. Over generalizing on doctrines gathers the bady and bath water and gives the whole thing a toss.. and when we do this.. we cut our own supplies short.

Our Lord is not into hype.. but He is into .. But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day"

Deut 8 18


He, God, does have a plan. Lets get out of the counterfeit and get into the real plans and purposes of God. But, lets not be fooled by the theft of all theives and have everything taken from us. ( "everything" being the things of God.)


His servant,
stacie


Ps..

Said was:
Like Teresa's sister, I would have been better off if I hadn't been exposed to the "name it and claim it, blab it and grab it" philosophy. But as Stacie has eloquently put it, she doesn't want to listen to anything that might make her re-examine her doctrine.
So I'll pretty much ....

I say..

I just want you to know that I constantly re-examine my doctrine.. I am not into the "name it claim it blab it grab it" either..

I am in my third year of study of the covenant, which is the origin of most all of these attacks, but that does not mean the covenant is wrong. We must glean the truth by prayer and study.

We should sharpen each other, help each other, ect. I have had my place of business attacked by a "name it claim it".. it closed up the whole section involved until I finally caught on..
the two women who placed this "curse" on the place where well versed in the word of faith message, only thing, Jesus was not their all in all.. He was a means to obtain what they wanted.

I have also had the Lord tell me in prayer what He wanted me to have. I received it in faith, and He delivered it.. in His time, His way...

I am sorry that RR has such contention.. and it does. But then, we are not really studying the scriptures, even this thread proves that.. people check in, nod their head, and then go on..

but, we had them for a moment.. then lost them without being able to bless them at all...



:cry


His servant,
stacie

[KrispyKritter]

Uhh... Stacie... man OR woman? Hmm...

I think I just opened a can of worms...

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by CrossLightMin
people check in, nod their head, and then go on..

:nod :nod :nod :nod :nod :nod

:bolt

[Sojourner]

Posted by CrossLightMin
How about the Baptists who refuse prophecy?
:confused

[LaMontre]

Posted by CrossLightMin
How about the Baptists who refuse prophecy?

Well, I think the baptist doctrine is a reaction to much of what is called "prophecy" in the church today. Much of it sounds more like a psychic reading than anything like biblical prophetic utterance.

However, the baptist reading of 1 Cor 13:10 is certainly a mis-interpretation.

[edit to add] Like many baptist doctines, it is a "safe" interpretation in terms of not allowing the flock to be deceived. Even though (IMO) they do lose something.

[savedandhappy1]

I am confused. I was raised in a Baptist church, and we believed in prophecy. So will someone tell what part of prophecy do we not believe in.



Thanks

Love in Christ,
Kathy

[LaMontre]

Originally posted by savedandhappy1
I am confused. I was raised in a Baptist church, and we believed in prophecy. So will someone tell what part of prophecy do we not believe in.



Thanks

Love in Christ,
Kathy

Well the baptist interpretation of "prophecy" is what most refer to as "preaching". They do not believe that the "gifts" are in operation any longer. At least that is the traditional stand of the baptist denomination. I know of one rather large baptist church (preacher) here in Texas who allows for alot of freedom. But he is still constrained by the baptist convention.

Personally, I have no problem with thier stand. There have certainly been many abuses of the "gift of prophecy". Especially those recorded in this century.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by LaMontre
At least that is the traditional stand of the baptist denomination.

Which baptist denomination do you mean? There are sooo many!

[ChopinFan]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Which baptist denomination do you mean? There are sooo many!

I am friends with many Baptists, and many are cessationists. This is very common, even among independent Baptists.

[Raphael]

I had to quit teaching Sunday School at a small Baptist church in Mississippi because a man in my class jumped up and pronounced tongues to be the words of the "demon Dagon". I had hidden my own little "prayer closet" tongues experiences - but that was the last straw. I tried to suggest that maybe speaking in tongues, if used an personal edification, was OK. No dice. I got a letter from the preacher saying he didn't wan't (tongues or related gifts) taught. I went to my son's church for a while. I liked it, but too many had to get "knocked down" (slain in the Spirit?) or do a sort of ballet dance before, during, and after the message for my taste. No offense to them - they're congregation is growing, and the Baptist church is shrinking (no, I'm not saying that's a measure of correctness). I wonder sometimes - if we see people in Heaven we didn't expect to be there - how will we respond to them? Or - if people see me, who didn't expect me there - how will they respond? A lot of sincere folks have gotten "hurt" on this site - and out in the non-cyber world, as well. It's a shame. I guess I would suggest "getting back to the basics" of salvation and what it takes (or doesn't take) to be saved. TV church is filled with deception (and constant moneygrubbing) - but so are (some) local churches. I guess it's apparent why judgment, as many have said, will begin with the church.

[ChopinFan]

I am a pentecostal pastor, but much of the junk on TBN and snake oil salesmen, have given us a bad name.

When I preach in Baptist churches, I try to respect their preferences where spiritual gifts are concerned, and try to keep the messages focused on things where we agree. Of course, if the Spirit of God directed me in another direction, I would be compelled to do so.

[blitzkreig]

Originally posted by ChopinFan
I am a pentecostal pastor, but much of the junk on TBN and snake oil salesmen, have given us a bad name. Now there is an understatement. They give the whole of Christianity a bad name. The pentecostal folks I know personally are nothing at all like the TV stereotype. :doh

[ChopinFan]

Originally posted by blitzkreig
Now there is an understatement. They give the whole of Christianity a bad name. The pentecostal folks I know personally are nothing at all like the TV stereotype. :doh

I appreciate that blitz, and thanks for stating that. It's true that most of us do not support nor affirm what those guys do on TV, but for some reason, people do tend to lump us all in that same basket.

Of course, I guess that would apply to other denominations too. We all come with preconceived notions about other groups of believers....unfortunately.

[Raphael]

and, unfortunately, bad names are "spread", with too broad a brush. The word "pentecostal" gives some folks the heebie-jeebies. Any TV pastor can automatically be condemned, just for being on TV. Don't get me wrong, I've got a lot of problems with being told by someone on TV to get convicted that God wants me to bless (monetarily) his ministry, and that God cannot help but bless me a hundredfold as a result. Or is it just sevenfold? I am disturbed by a dearth of (measurable) charity towards orphans and widows (from their own deep pockets) being presented by some of these TV ministeries. The word "cult" gets used with too broad a brush sometimes - IMO, a "cult" teaches something other than salvation through Christ's sacrifice alone and/or teaches something so opposed to plain scriptural truth as to be an abomination. I't easy to see that anyone who feels that God is obliged to bless us according to our giving (preferably to them) is being "abominable" - and if that's the core of his teaching, to the exclusion of sole dependence on Christ, it's cultic.

[LaMontre]

Originally posted by Raphael
and, unfortunately, bad names are "spread", with too broad a brush. The word "pentecostal" gives some folks the heebie-jeebies. Any TV pastor can automatically be condemned, just for being on TV. Don't get me wrong, I've got a lot of problems with being told by someone on TV to get convicted that God wants me to bless (monetarily) his ministry, and that God cannot help but bless me a hundredfold as a result. Or is it just sevenfold? I am disturbed by a dearth of (measurable) charity towards orphans and widows (from their own deep pockets) being presented by some of these TV ministeries. The word "cult" gets used with too broad a brush sometimes - IMO, a "cult" teaches something other than salvation through Christ's sacrifice alone and/or teaches something so opposed to plain scriptural truth as to be an abomination. I't easy to see that anyone who feels that God is obliged to bless us according to our giving (preferably to them) is being "abominable" - and if that's the core of his teaching, to the exclusion of sole dependence on Christ, it's cultic.

I think Paul agreed.

Philippians 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

[savedandhappy1]

Thanks for answering my guestion. I was raised Southern Baptist in a small town in Kansas. I now tho attend a AOG, church. Tongues were never used in the Baptist church, but the scriptures were, and never once did I hear that they were wrong or not to be. I may have heard that they sometimes believe that some people get caught up in trying to hard to be close to God, that they maybe talk them selfs into it, but that as long as there is and interpetation then it is biblical.
That help me when I went to the church I am attending now.


Love in Christ,
Kathy