Pastor's salary?

[His Sparrow]

I've read a lot lately about how some TV evangelist are making incredible bucks. What determines how money much a pastor should make? I live in Raleigh NC and I know my pastor paid $300,000 for his house. His salary isn't given to the congregation, nor is the church's budget. We have a small church of about 150 people and the church always seems short of funds.

Do I have a right to know how my tithes are spent? I want to know that my church leadership are being good stewards.

Is my thinking out of line? I haven't even whispered my questions because I don't know the answers to these questions. I don't want to start trouble in the church.

[prov15_4]

Wow...I would definitely think that some light needs to be shed on the financial aspects of your church. The small church that I grew up going to was only about 200 members, yet every month they had an open financial meeting anyone could attend if you wanted (it was boring as all get-out...lol...but my mom sometimes went)...where they went over and showed how much was brought in in tithes, how much went out for expenditures, and votes held where you voted on what money went where. I think that is very healthy for a church...since it's not THEIR money anyways...and it was common knowledge in how much the pastor was paid. I would think that yes, a red flag should be thrown up and at if all is in the right, then the powers-that-be that are "in the know" at your church would be glad to divulge the information. Anyone else's thoughts?

YSIC
Lee

[TyTex]

If your church has a congregational form of governance, it's incredible that the church budget is not made available to the members of the church. Go by the church office and ask for a copy. If they won't give you one, something is wrong! Ask one of your deacons or elders why a copy isn't available to you on request. If the answer is fishy, it may be time to go.

[KrispyKritter]

My personal opinion is that salaries should not be given to pastors. Some of that has to do with my beliefs about house churches... some of it has to do with common sense. How can you expect someone to preach the full counsel of God (which can be a hard pill to swallow at times) to people who are paying him? Seems to be a conflict of interest.

Having said that, and knowing that some will disagree w/my above statement... God expects you to be a good steward of what He has given you. Blindly giving your money to anyone is not being a good steward. You have every right to know where the money is going, and you have a responsibility to hold your church leadership accountable. If they refuse to show you, then they are hiding something, and there could also be some laws being broken by them keeping everything so hush hush.

A lot of money people thought they were giving to the Lord's "work" has gone to buy Joyce Meyer a Mercedes sports car. A lot of money people thought they were giving to the Lord's "work" had gone to pay for a prostitute for a big TV evangelist back in the 80's. Not good stewardship on the part of the givers.

I would be concerned.

[285]

Originally posted by His Sparrow
I've read a lot lately about how some TV evangelist are making incredible bucks. What determines how money much a pastor should make? I live in Raleigh NC and I know my pastor paid $300,000 for his house. His salary isn't given to the congregation, nor is the church's budget. We have a small church of about 150 people and the church always seems short of funds.

Do I have a right to know how my tithes are spent? I want to know that my church leadership are being good stewards.

Is my thinking out of line? I haven't even whispered my questions because I don't know the answers to these questions. I don't want to start trouble in the church.

Any church that does not have an opne policy to where the money of the church is being spent is not a church that I would attend. If you cannot get a clear account of money being spent then i suggest that you leave that church.

[Harley]

An open budget policy is one thing, but posting the pastor's(s') salary is another. Our church makes the portion budgeted for salaries available, but does not list the actual salaries of individuals. I don't think that is anybody's business.

Before you say - "But I have a right to know how my money is spent" - I agree. But you can tell if a church is exercising good sterwardship without delving into the personal accounts of employees.

For example, saying a pastor has a $300,000 house is way too vague. What is the market? In parts of Wyoming that may be on the high end - in Orange County, CA that'll get ya a starage shed for your mower.

We also do not know the income sources. I know a pastor who lives in a house larger than you would expect, but it was afforded through inheritance, and he uses for large church gatherings.

[2bossy]

Our paster preaches 4 sermons on Sunday (3 in the morning and and evening service) He runs a christian school during the week. He does visitation on Tuesdays, Services on Wednesday, Retirement home visitation on Thursdays, Jail ministry and a addiction group (kind of like AA but with biblical foundation and for all types of addictions) on Fridays. Then on Saturday they do visitation to invite children to ride the buses on Sunday. On top of this he councels members, does wedding, funerals, etc.

My POINT (finally! :D: ) is that he would never have time for another job, and of course he should get a salary. Should he be getting rich off his salary though? No! Every church I've ever been to has their books open to their members. Usually once a month on Wednesday nights they have a short business meeting where they read the minutes and state all the finances.

Hopefully, the church is giving to missions also.

[Mrs. Hoppes]

Our church does not have a paid pastor.

Also, all property owned by the church is owned by the church. If the money is not available to buy it outright, it is not needed.

Our church finances are a matter of public record.

I can call the church in LA or Arkansas or Michigan or Indianaoplis or here where I attend and as a member, they will happily send a report on what was collected, what was spent, what was tithed based on what was collected (including interest at the bank) what is left in checking, what is left in savings......


The pastor lives next to the church and the church ownes the house he lives in. The church pays the utilities and any travel expenses for the pastor as long as the travel is church related.

Anything beyond that (food, clothes, cable, teen-age son, wife, etc....) the pastor pays for himself from his job. He is a pipe fitter.

The pastor also tithes his income.
The Church tithes what it collects.

Each church makes monthly reports to keep record. Each church makes quarterly reports, semi-annual, and annual reports that goes to the home church in Sycamore, IL that gets gone over twice a year.

Every church is held VERY accountable financially and it is there for everyone to look at and ask any questions they have.

[cindyw]

Originally posted by Harley
An open budget policy is one thing, but posting the pastor's(s') salary is another. Our church makes the portion budgeted for salaries available, but does not list the actual salaries of individuals. I don't think that is anybody's business.



I COMPLETELY disagree with this. It is not delving into anyone's business to know how much your pastor and any other paid employees are making. EVERYTHING should be laid open bare----then there is nothing to hide----no "appearance" of any impropriety.

I waver between paid and unpaid Pastors. I personally believe it depends on the situation. If I had a Pastor who gave FULL time and then some, not allowing for other work to provide for his family, I would gladly support him as He seeks to take care of God's people. However, I agree with much of what Krispy said. I have seen it firsthand and know that the paycheck sometimes will hinder someone from leaving an UNGODLY situation going on in the Church-----or at least delay one's actions until another "job" comes along. Money should NEVER be a reason to compromise one's convictions........NEVER......and that should be the case, but is not with paid ministers/associate Pastors, deacons, etc.......Decisions should SOLELY be made according to God's Word......JMHO. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

[cameron222]

I believe in the open budget process. We have that at our church. Everyone can see how much the pastor makes and what benefits he is paid and thus the gossip is dissolved.

Nothing financial should ever be hidden from the church body.

[Crescendo]

The budget should be open to the body, I believe. Furthermore, I think its a little bold to question his ability to buy a home. I think it was mentioned before about a possible inheritance, etc. Lots of things could happen. Maybe he's a shrewd investor and saved for many years.

[Harley]

Originally posted by cameron222
I believe in the open budget process. We have that at our church. Everyone can see how much the pastor makes and what benefits he is paid and thus the gossip is dissolved.

Nothing financial should ever be hidden from the church body.

Originally posted by cindyw
I COMPLETELY disagree with this. It is not delving into anyone's business to know how much your pastor and any other paid employees are making. EVERYTHING should be laid open bare----then there is nothing to hide----no "appearance" of any impropriety...

As a way of dissolving gossip - that is one I've never heard.

I guess if everything is to be open, so there is no hint of impropriety, then all the houshold incomes of all the member should be registered and published as well. What's good for the pastor is good for the flock...

[cindyw]

Originally posted by Harley
As a way of dissolving gossip - that is one I've never heard.

I guess if everything is to be open, so there is no hint of impropriety, then all the houshold incomes of all the member should be registered and published as well. What's good for the pastor is good for the flock...

I'm curious why anyone who is in ministry would feel threatened by other's knowing what THE CHURCH (the body of believers) is paying him.......:confused

[LoadShark]

I would pray on the matter. God will direct you in the right direction. Most generally he will even without praying. Edited to say this.. (after all, he gave yo common sense) The fact that you are speaking out about it here means that there very well could be a problem.


If your congregation can support a 300,000 a year budget for the pastor, then I would like to know your zip code.. Cause I want to get a job there! LOL


In all seriousness, look at it this way. If you minister is driving a fancy car, but your poorest members cannot make ends meet, then you are paying him WAY TOO MUCH.

[Leigh]

At our church, all the salaries are lumped together under one category, so we don't know how much each staff member earns. The personnel committee knows, as do a few others (finance committee, etc.), and I think that is appropriate.

If a church member wants to know the exact salary, it can probably be found out through the appropriate channels, but I believe the pastor deserves a degree of privacy.

Just my opinion.

[Leigh]

Oh, I just saw the original question. Yes, I definitely think the church members should see the budget. I agree that you need to know where your tithe is going. :nod

[Xlcor]

Ask that your church join ECFA (Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability)

www.ecfa.org/

[onsolidrock]

1CO 9:7 * Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9 * For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

[1CO 9:13] Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?

It is unscriptural to not pay a Pastor.

[Jael]

I believe pastors should be paid if they are serving full-time and the church is able to support them (as others have pointed out, this is scriptural also). I also believe in full-disclosure of what is being paid to those on the church payroll. Just as the salaries of government officials are publically available:

Salaries of top Legislative, Executive and Judicial officials as of January 1, 2003

President -- $400,000
Vice President -- $198,600
Speaker of the House -- $198,600
House Majority & Minority Leaders -- $171,900
House / Senate Members & Delegates -- $154,700
Chief Justice of the Supreme Court -- $198,600
Associate Justices of the Supreme Court -- $190,100

[Source: House Press Gallery]
http://usgovinfo.about.com/bltopsalaries.htm

When these people accepted a job that is paid by the tax-payers, so they gave up a certain amount of privacy regarding their compensation. Even for run of the mill federal positions, you can find out the specific salary range for any position. In the same way, there should be no secrets about the compensation paid to church employees. Those who accept positions on the church payroll should understand up front that their salaries will be made public. The members should have access to the budget so that they can be assured that they are being good stewards as they contribute to their church.

[His Sparrow]

I mentioned the cost of the pastors house because it is indicative of his life style. To give you an idea of value, his neighbors would probably be upper level management folks.

My guess based on what I know about this man is that he and his wife are being paid around $125,000 per year. Pretty good for a church of about 150. I remember in his sermons him saying he left his last church with nothing. Had to walk away from his house. He was talking about how the Lord had blessed him here in NC.

We have no other paid staff. We also no longer have elders, or leadership other than the youth leader.

Work and maintenance on the church is done by church members, gratis.

I've only been thinking about this since the articles came out here about Joyce Meyer and her lavish lifestyle. I started thinking perhaps something is wrong here.

On the other hand if this is normal and appropriate, I'll shut my mouth and continue to worship and work there in peace.

[GloryBound]

For anyone who thinks the pastor's salary is not our business, the pastor knows what we make. When we tithe, that is.

[cindyw]

Originally posted by His Sparrow
My guess based on what I know about this man is that he and his wife are being paid around $125,000 per year. Pretty good for a church of about 150. I remember in his sermons him saying he left his last church with nothing. Had to walk away from his house. He was talking about how the Lord had blessed him here in NC.
We have no other paid staff. We also no longer have elders, or leadership other than the youth leader.

Work and maintenance on the church is done by church members, gratis.

That seems like an awful lot of money to me----even if the Church is paying his wife for things she does. Like I said, I believe in taking good care of your pastor-------IF he is earning it, but that seems extravagant to me. As for no elders......:eek

That does not sound good. Who is this man accountable to? One thing I think is cool is that your members are the ones who do the upkeep on the church. IMHO, that is the way it should be. It seems nowdays, the Church has to PAY everyone to take care of the building's needs, the childcare, sunday school leaders, etc. What happened to service without compensation? This is one reason why mission money is so scarce.........Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

[Elizabeth_S]

Originally posted by Harley
As a way of dissolving gossip - that is one I've never heard.

I guess if everything is to be open, so there is no hint of impropriety, then all the houshold incomes of all the member should be registered and published as well. What's good for the pastor is good for the flock...

Why? The church isn't paying for the flock to live. So why would it even come into play? :rolleyes

It is your money and we are called ot be good stewards. That means KNOWING, not hiding from the facts.

[Jael]

My guess based on what I know about this man is that he and his wife are being paid around $125,000 per year. Pretty good for a church of about 150.
That seems like an awful lot of money to me----even if the Church is paying his wife for things she does.
Yeah, it jumped out at me too...for a church of 150 people, that sounds like a really high salary. I know pastors in my area who lead much larger congregations (2000+) who make less than that. That sounds like quite a burden for such a small membership; I mean, is there anything left over for ministry?...and I'm with Cindy...no elders????

[Mrs. Hoppes]

No elders?

That is wrong.

As for "full time pastors" my pastor is a full time pastor. As he puts it, he is a pastor whether he has the collar on or off.

Yes he works as a pipe fitter, but he is still a pastor.

One reason he doesn't get paid is he does not want people thinking he is influenced by the congregation telling them what they want to hear because the congregation is paying him. The other reason is he has been a pastor since the early 70s at this same church location. Why change? None of the pastors of Israel of God get a salary.

Paul supported himself. (Tent maker) and that is what the church goes on. Several of the early apostles and disciples had "other jobs"

There is no such thing as a "part time" pastor. There is no such thing as a "part time" christian.


As for visiting the sick, shut-ins, lonely, those in need... That is not the pastor's job. It is the job of the deacons. (For example, my husband.) That is in scripture.

[Harley]

Originally posted by cindyw
I'm curious why anyone who is in ministry would feel threatened by other's knowing what THE CHURCH (the body of believers) is paying him.......:confused

It is not an issue of being threatened, nor an issue of hiding, it is just an issue of people not needing to know that detail.

As for the pastor knows what we make. When we tithe, that is. - I don't think the pastor should know the amount anyone gives either.

Maybe I'm just a more private person, but I woudn't want to know the pastor's salary, and would not want him to know how much I give...

[cindyw]

Originally posted by Harley
It is not an issue of being threatened, nor an issue of hiding, it is just an issue of people not needing to know that detail.



Why shouldn't those who PAY the salary of the Pastor, know how much they are paying?:confused

[GloryBound]

Originally posted by Harley
I don't think the pastor should know the amount anyone gives either.[/B]

OHHHHHH???????

So you don't want the church to have a record of your giving? Don't try to claim a tax deduction. Because I had some relatives who thought that way. They got into BIG trouble.

[filosofer]

Originally posted by GloryBound
For anyone who thinks the pastor's salary is not our business, the pastor knows what we make. When we tithe, that is.

As a pastor I have made it absolute policy - I NEVER check to see what any member gives; thus, I know only one family's amount of giving - my own. If fact, I have never even known how to get the information.

My ministry is not affected by how much a person gives.

Likewise, if there is a problem with someone not giving to the Church, then there are bigger/deeper spiritual problems that need to be addressed. If I am teaching/preaching the full counsel of God, then proper stewardship flows out of the Gospel (that's the whole point of 2 Corinthians 8-9).

BTW, we paid off the debt, then made completed seven major building projects without going into debt over a seven year period, and at the end of that time we still had $100,000 in the bank for future projects. Proclaim Law-Gospel consistently, accurately, and strongly encourage people to be in Bible study, and over time, the finances will reflect that.

[CamelPower]

Some of the dollar amounts cited did not give the geographical context. $125,000 in Lake Co., Illinois is a nice income, but not flagrantly wealthy. Every shack I know around here starts at $100,000. I've never lived in a place where costs are so high. (I hear that metro DC is also incredibly high)

And in Chicago itself. . . ., :wof

Really, those elders who rule well are worthy of double honor, especially those who teach. Paul said so. If folks' giving is "as unto the Lord," as Fructenbaum used to tell us all the time, "God's work done in God's way will never lack God's support."

The lifestyles led by Benny Hinn or Joyce Meyer are not the norm.

[AnotherOldGuy]

Mrs. Hoppes,

Our church does not have a paid pastor...

The pastor lives next to the church and the church ownes the house he lives in. The church pays the utilities and any travel expenses for the pastor as long as the travel is church related.

Anything beyond that (food, clothes, cable, teen-age son, wife, etc....) the pastor pays for himself from his job. He is a pipe fitter...

Every church is held VERY accountable financially and it is there for everyone to look at and ask any questions they have.


Accountable to scripture as well?


I'm not a pastor or anything, so I can get away with this. ;):

According to scripture, you are cheating your pastor.

(1 Tim 5:17) The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.

(1 Tim 5:18) For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages."

With that last part, Paul was quoting the words of Christ:


(Luke 10:7) Stay in that house, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house.



(Rom 4:4) Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.




Paul supported himself. (Tent maker) and that is what the church goes on. Several of the early apostles and disciples had "other jobs"

That is not entirely true. In addition, Paul was not the pastor of a church.


(Phil 4:15) Moreover, as you Philippians know, in the early days of your acquaintance with the gospel, when I set out from Macedonia, not one church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving, except you only;

(Phil 4:16) for even when I was in Thessalonica, you sent me aid again and again when I was in need.

(Phil 4:17) Not that I am looking for a gift, but I am looking for what may be credited to your account.

(Phil 4:18) I have received full payment and even more; I am amply supplied, now that I have received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent. They are a fragrant offering, an acceptable sacrifice, pleasing to God.

edit: add tag

[Harley]

Originally posted by GloryBound
OHHHHHH???????

So you don't want the church to have a record of your giving? Don't try to claim a tax deduction. Because I had some relatives who thought that way. They got into BIG trouble.

As filosofer pointed out, the pastor does not need to know the amounts for receipts to be given. The record keeping and receipt generating has been given to trustworthy men, none of the pastos has (or wants) that access.

[Harley]

Originally posted by cindyw
Why shouldn't those who PAY the salary of the Pastor, know how much they are paying?:confused

I'm surprised it took this long for this question to be asked.

I guess if you just don't trust the pastor, and/or the board(s) that set his (her/their) salary(ies), and/or those making financial decisions - then join a church where you can be satisfied.

If you support a missionary - do you need to know the individual income of the Executive Director? If you support a child with Compassion or World Vision, do you need to know the individual income of the President. No, you look at their financial statements, see the amount alloted for various categories, and decide if you are content with the percentage.

As far as you being the one who PAYS the pastor; I remember a cartoon from a few years back, it showed a man in a collar pulling a bottle of pop from a store's cooler while holding a bag of chips. The man watching was thinking: "Hey is that rev. So-and-So wasting my tithe on junk food."

(Maybe ya gotta be in the ministry to think it's funny ;):)

[cindyw]

Originally posted by Harley
I'm surprised it took this long for this question to be asked.

I guess if you just don't trust the pastor, and/or the board(s) that set his (her/their) salary(ies), and/or those making financial decisions - then join a church where you can be satisfied.

If you support a missionary - do you need to know the individual income of the Executive Director? If you support a child with Compassion or World Vision, do you need to know the individual income of the President. No, you look at their financial statements, see the amount alloted for various categories, and decide if you are content with the percentage.



Harley, the truth is that we are to be GOOD stewards over what the Lord gives to us. That means decision making. It's not the elders who decide how to steward what God has entrusted to my family. Once the money comes in, yes, they do decide where and what proportion to divide it. You may think it's bad taste to ask for such "private" details, but I don't. Many, many jobs have their salaries publically known. Why not a Pastor? More than anyone, Christians need to be ABOVE REPROACH and transparent. The lost already think Church is all about money. My dad (unsaved) made a crack about my old Pastor's NICE home. It is very nice, but not extraordinarily so. I told my dad that my Pastor was paid well, but not THAT well. His wife worked outside the home too and contributed to their income.

I believe as I've said that those Pastors who work FULL TIME for the LORD, deserve to be taken care of in a nice way. They should not be living in poverty while the congregation is fat and happy. However, they should not be living way above the standards of the average parishoner either. They are to serve the Lord, not mammon. You want to keep your salary secret, more power to you. I wouldn't go to any Church that refuses to lay out full financial disclosure.........suspicious? Yes, and I have good reason to be. JMHO. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

[SAHM]

Most certainly pastors should be paid for their services!! I cant believe anyone would suggest that they shouldnt. Do you think that the only time a pastor works is sunday and wednsday? I'm sure it takes days to prepare a serman, not to mention all the other side jobs he has. Like counseling, visiting the sick etc. I'm sure if you think about it you can think of countless things your pastor does. I sure dont envision my pastor taking it easy every day of the week except for the two church days.

Also I think that the church board or whatever you would call them, has to agree on what the pastors salary is, so however the pastor decides to spend his money is his and his wifes business, if that means he has by what you consider an expensive home or car then so be it. It is his money, and that is what the "board" agreed upon.

This post is in no way directed to the individual who posted about his pastor having an high salary and a small congregation.

I also believe that the budget should be open to the congregation.

[Mrs. Hoppes]

Visiting the sick, etc... is NOT the pastor's job. It is the job of the deacons.
As for the person who mentioned scripture regarding moving from house to house and wages, my pastor lives in the parsonage. The expenses of the parsonage are met. (Gas, electric, security system since it was broken into, sewage, water, etc...)

His home is paid for in full. All his utilities are paid for. If he needs to travel somewhere on church business his expenses are paid for. His wife's travel expenses are paid for as well.

[BlackMoon]

I am thankful to be blessed with the means to pay tithes and I jofully will give God back 10% of what He has given me.

I would not, however, give a penny to a church that would not be held accountable for its spending.

Our church pays our pastor. I would not want it any other way. His job is 24/7.

BlackMoon

[Harley]

Originally posted by cindyw
...You may think it's bad taste to ask for such "private" details, but I don't. Many, many jobs have their salaries publically known. Why not a Pastor? More than anyone, Christians need to be ABOVE REPROACH and transparent... I wouldn't go to any Church that refuses to lay out full financial disclosure.........suspicious? Yes, and I have good reason to be. JMHO. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

Cindy,

I'm sorry to read that you have been through some kind of situation (or at least witnessed the same) where finances were mishandled. This is, as we would all agree, too common.

Like many things, this is a personal preference issue.

Blessings...

[quiet_reverie]

Pastor's may work long and hard hours but so do many others; especially our military members and yet they don't make much....

It's hard to see a Pastor live better than the ones in his congregation...

[SAHM]

So just because someone in the congregation isnt living well off that means we should make our pastors live at poverty level??

If someone in the congregation is having a problem making ends meet then it is the responsibility of the church family to help that person by whatever means necessary. In todays church this is not a popular concept anymore. But on the other hand there are many people who have financial problems because they continue to make poor choices.

As for it not being the pastors job to visit sick people etc. My mother was in the hospital several years ago and eventually died and our pastor cared enough about our family and our well being that he came and visited my mother and our family ever day. It was very comforting to us to have him there and for him to pray with us. I'm sorry but it would not have been the same if a deacon would have taken his place. I understand in larger churches this is next to impossible to expect this out of a pastor, but in smaller churches I think its perfectly acceptable.

I stick to my point, pastors work very hard for their churches and for the people who attend them, so they deserve nothing less than a fair salary!!
Sahm

[rekker]

Wow, lots of different issues being explored here.

1. Congregations have different expectations of pastors. Some only expect preaching and some discipleship. Others expect them to do it all...lead worship, run elder meetings, develop vision, oversee the budget committee, visit the sick and elderly...

Obviously a pastor who's congregation just expects him to preach would be part time and have another job on the side. A pastor who's congregation expects him to be superman, on the other hand, should be compensated accordingly.

2. Full disclosure for a pastor's salary is always recommended to avoid, as others have said, any appearance of impropriety. This is why public servants have publically posted salaries. We must be above reproach, and that goes especially for pastors. Remember, we live in a time when financial scandals are commonplace, and the public is already supsicious of giving money to churches. Full disclosure is a wonderful way to build trust. I don't see how any godly person would have a problem with that.

3. Financial advisors suggest that no more than 30% of your annual salary be spent on your mortgage. So if this pastor has a $300k house, he would have a mortgage of $270k at the most (assuming a 10% down payment.) 30% of $270k = $81k. My point is that you don't need a huge annual salary to buy a $300k house. If he had a bigger down payment then his salary could be even less.

The point is, you should be able to find out what his salary is instead of assuming what he makes based on his house.

4. My concern is that your church seems to be a one man show. To whom is the pastor accountable? I ask this because our church just fell apart because we had a strong-willed pastor who was a one man show. Elders and deacons went his way or the highway. There was poor decision making and lousy leadership structure, and no fiscal accountability. It was a recipe for disaster.

If your pastor is setting the budget, not disclosing his salary, getting rid of elders and deacons, and not allowing himself to be held accountable by any body of parishoners, then you've got the brewings of a bad situation.

5. Some people are telling you to leave if things don't look good. I strongly urge you to NOT follow that advice. Leaving churches is a 20th century epidemic. People leave at the drop of the hat. Commitment to a body of believers is a forgotten virtue.

Raise the issues, make a stink if you have to, but do it with love and by letting people know that you are wholly committed to the community and to the welfare of everyone. You CAN make a difference. Leaving at the first sign of trouble is cowardly and ungodly, since we are called to speak out against injustice, hold our brothers and sisters to a higher standard, and encourage and exhort each other.

[cindyw]

:thumb Rekker!!!

You sound like you are a member of the last Church I was in......same Pastor issue, same elder problem. One man show--elders didn't agree, they got the boot. I agree with ALL of your post except the leaving part. Yes, we are to love one another and support one another, but I WILL NOT stand in support or even give the appearance of supporting UNGODLY leaders. Those who have brought to the attention of leaders, unbiblical practices and are ignored by the leadership, have every right to leave. We are NEVER encouraged in scripture to stand behind men who name the name of Christ and are UNGODLY in their conduct/character.

For me, my allegiance is to those who desire to follow after God. I do not hold allegiance to those who don't care to seek out Truth in the Lord's Word. When my DH went to our last church's leadership on an issue, not 1 of the "pastors" even pulled out their bible. They said "I think", I "feel"............On another occasion, I met with the main Pastor about a doctrinal issue he was teaching on (our meeting and the subject was discussed prior to the meeting).......He showed up without a Bible in hand. I had to give him one. Does that sound like Biblically sound leadership? To leave that type of Church is not cowadice IMHO, it is what is NECESSARY to make a stand for the True Gospel of Christ. My family "came out of her"........so as not to partake in her "plagues"........JMHO. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

[Ditto2k]

We have 500 member and 5 pastors making 55k -85k+ each...
I just found out how bad it was after being there and tithing for 10 years...
I had to really probe and ask questions to find out because they have hidden it so well. Except for the materialism they display.
I suggest you get all the salaries and make sure they are in line with the area you live in. I found out our church is a money making business just like wal-mart. Needless to say, we are searching for a new church home....


http://kingdomwear.com/images/catalog/sm_sw_jag2.jpg (http://www.rapturewearshop.com/)
Got Raptured! Leave this behind!

[quiet_reverie]

**So just because someone in the congregation isnt living well off that means we should make our pastors live at poverty level??**

Is that what I posted? Check again. I didn't come close to saying that. I said it was "hard" to see a pastor living a wealthy lifestyle compared to the ones in his congregation...the ones who donate what they can and then go without while the Pastor has everything and then some.

[rekker]

Originally posted by cindyw
:thumb Rekker!!!

You sound like you are a member of the last Church I was in......same Pastor issue, same elder problem. One man show--elders didn't agree, they got the boot. I agree with ALL of your post except the leaving part. Yes, we are to love one another and support one another, but I WILL NOT stand in support or even give the appearance of supporting UNGODLY leaders. Those who have brought to the attention of leaders, unbiblical practices and are ignored by the leadership, have every right to leave. We are NEVER encouraged in scripture to stand behind men who name the name of Christ and are UNGODLY in their conduct/character.

For me, my allegiance is to those who desire to follow after God. I do not hold allegiance to those who don't care to seek out Truth in the Lord's Word. When my DH went to our last church's leadership on an issue, not 1 of the "pastors" even pulled out their bible. They said "I think", I "feel"............On another occasion, I met with the main Pastor about a doctrinal issue he was teaching on (our meeting and the subject was discussed prior to the meeting).......He showed up without a Bible in hand. I had to give him one. Does that sound like Biblically sound leadership? To leave that type of Church is not cowadice IMHO, it is what is NECESSARY to make a stand for the True Gospel of Christ. My family "came out of her"........so as not to partake in her "plagues"........JMHO. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

You're right Cindy. I think we were both talking about two different extremes.

I was saying that I do not think it right to leave a church at the first sign of trouble, or if you don't agree with something the pastor says, or if you're not getting something out of the church. You, on the other hand, are talking about something much more serious...a church that is being mislead by a pastor. And that is different. Sometimes, in spite of working hard and doing everything you can to challenge people to faithfulness, they just won't listen and you have no choice but to leave.

I would still challenge anyone in such a church to challenge the leadership, call them to task, garner support from others, pray for your church, do everything you can to turn them from their sins. Does not Scripture call us to do so? (Ezekiel 33:7-9, Matthew 8:15ff) Leaving a church should not be done lightly nor without trying all other doors first.

After all, this is the body of Christ. If you do not stand up and say something, if you just quietly leave, who will be left to make things salty?