Churches Find Purpose in Book (no, it's not the Bible)

[Grow with God]

http://www.foxnews.com/images/106852/0_21_111003_book.jpg

NEW YORK — This fall, in churches throughout America, worshippers are hitting the books to search for answers to the question: “What on Earth am I here for?” But it's not the book you might think of.

Last month, over 4,000 churches began a 40-day campaign to explore the ideas about faith and the meaning of life presented in Rick Warren's bestseller, “The Purpose-Driven Life: What on Earth Am I Here for?"

Advocates say the program, used at Christian churches across many denominations, is revitalizing faith at parishes. But critics are skeptical of the self-help approach to spirituality.

The book is a how-to guide for living a Christian life. Warren, the pastor of Saddleback Church (search) in Lake Forest, Calif., lays out five main God-centered "purposes" meant to give meaning to people's lives — worship, fellowship, discipleship, ministry and evangelism.

“To discover your purpose in life, you must turn to God’s word, not the world’s wisdom,” he writes as he goes on to link each of the five purposes to Biblical Scriptures.

The book is reaching people seeking a higher purpose, while also offering Christians a new understanding and relevance for their faith, according to Rick Stillwell, pastor of Fairview Baptist Church (search) near Shawnee, Okla., whose parish is participating in the Purpose-Driven campaign.

“One of the greatest challenges we face is showing the relevance of God to our lives today,” said Stillwell. “'The Purpose-Driven Life (search)' is not a fad. Although it’s very professional and organized, it’s still transforming lives."

However, Kenda Creasy Dean, an assistant professor at Princeton Theological Seminary, views the campaign mostly as savvy marketing by the book’s publisher, Zondervan.

“This book is designed to help church leaders lead the life they preach about, but the danger is that there is no one-size-fits-all method of spiritual formation,” she said.

There's no doubt that "The Purpose-Driven Life” has touched a nerve. The book has sold over 8 million copies since it came out in October 2002. When it was released, the publisher launched the first “40 Days of Purpose” campaign in which 1,500 churches participated. This year, the campaign was re-launched and more than twice as many churches signed up.

Churches officially participating in the campaign paid a registration fee from $750 to $1,150, depending on the size of the church, which included a resource kit of sermon outlines, videos, group curricula and promotional materials.

As part of the campaign, churches have organized weekly sermons and formed small groups to discuss the book's topics. Every day, church members read one of the book’s brief chapters on their own, and each week, one of the five main purposes is introduced at the Sunday service.

Teri Sowinski of Union City, Ind., leads a small group at her home and said she enjoys bringing people together who are at different stages of their faith.

“It’s rejuvenating to bring those who might feel burned out with their faith together with many who haven’t been to church in years,” she said.

“We’re learning how to put our faith into practice beyond Sunday mornings,” said Sowinski, who is working on a Christmas mission project because of the book.

As the campaign nears its end, she is also seeing an energized spirit at church. At the coffee fellowship between Sunday services the room is so crowded, it’s hard to get inside, she said.

Stillwell’s parish is also experiencing growth as a result of the Purpose-Driven campaign.

“We’re seeing people of those hard-to-reach ages coming and taking a new approach to things they might have been turned off by before,” said Stillwell.

Dean said “The Purpose-Driven Life” has essentially given churches strategy for reaching parishioners who have become disenchanted. In the last half of the 20th century, she said, churches have become more like corporations, and in the process "have lost their soul."

"The truth is that many churches are so rudderless that any intentional plan or sense of direction is an improvement, which is partly why Rick Warren's "Purpose-Driven" language is so appealing," she said.

And despite its appeal, Dean said the book's message is not new.

“It’s really just back to the basic biblical principles,” she said.

Whatever the reason for its popularity, Stillwell contends that the campaign and the book are having a positive effect merely by bringing parishes together again.

“People for the first time in decades are recognizing church as a community of people.”

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,102725,00.html

[lookinupval]

However, Kenda Creasy Dean, an assistant professor at Princeton Theological Seminary, views the campaign mostly as savvy marketing by the book’s publisher, Zondervan. “This book is designed to help church leaders lead the life they preach about, but the danger is that there is no one-size-fits-all method of spiritual formation,” she said. What a load of untruths. The book wasn't designed for "church leaders to lead the life they preach about..."!!!

I've read all but the last two sections of the book. IT IS NOTHING BUT THE BIBLE. Scripture is a large part of the teaching, along with Biblical facts.

I listened to the critics and to the proponents before I started this program. Anyone who says this program is a bad thing is simply unwilling to follow the Word of God in a fundamental, faith-filled way.

I'm terribly saddened if anyone's church used the program as a tool to bring in members in order to make more money. But I'm happy to report that this isn't always the case!

I loved the book and plan on reading it again. It is filled with highlighted Bible passages (that I've highlighted), along with wonderful encouragement.

Reading the book and being part of the program has been one of the highlights of my life. I went to a new home fellowship, and have made at least a dozen new friends!

If any Christian has read this book, in its entirety, and still finds fault in the 40 Days of Purpose, I would challenge that person to ask God to reveal the truth about the program to them.

I don't know how much our church has grown, but I do see a lot of new faces. And people are energized as never before! More people are involved in different ministries, which is such a blessing! Our purpose is to tell people about the Lord!

[The Bearen]

Check out an excellent article from the website:"News with views.com by Debeora O"Hare the article is entitled "Has the church lost its God given purpose" she makes some comments about the foundations of this movement the fact that they have used this guy(I can"t remember his name of off hand but he is well known in the marketing and buisness world and he has had a lot of influence with Rick Warren Bill Hybels and Robert Shueller the father of the seeker movement.

I don"t believe its good mixing worldly methods with Gods Word.
Jesus says ,"My kingdom is not of this world".

Don"t get me wrong I am sure there is a lot of good truths in ,"The Purpose Driven Life" but its the 5% untruth or poisen that can leaven the whole lump.

Christ & His Word with the help of the Holy Spirirt is all we need. :thumb

[cameron222]

God gives some people gifts in teaching. I believe Rick Warren is one of those people. His book is based on Biblical principles.

Satan is apparently afraid of this teaching and is trying his best to undo it. Imagine millions of christians learning that their purpose is about God and not themselves. Its not a "name it and claim it" what can "I" get out of christianity. Its what can I do for God that pleases Him.

This is a great study!!

[daveleau]

I will keep this short and sweet. :thumb Scripture tells us often that we only need the Word and the Spirit. And this is all we need. But, there are many great tools out there that are available that we can use that help us get different perspectives.

1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
1Co 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


Not everyone has the same gifts. Tools are out there to guide us and help us to understand. This passage tells us that we MUST rely on others for full understanding, as we are al given different gifts. The PDL book is a good tool. It is not perfect, only Scripture is perfect. But this book IS based on Scripture and as the above says "no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." So, do not be so quick to judge a book as being the wrong route. Commentaries, study guides, sunday school books, and books like PDL are all great tools that can help us to grow in the Spirit.

I will keep this short and sweet.
Ok, so it wasn't as short as I intended. :P:

[LLee]

http://www.geocities.com/christianconcerns/index-pdl.htm

[antsinmypants]

Thanks LLee.

Yes, I have picked up the book and Yes-- my fiance owns a copy, but you know what his words were (before I knew a copy was given to him)?

"I don't need this. I have the Bible, I'm studying it, and i'm learning."

My words on it..? "It might be good for a new believer who doesn't know much about G-d's word.. but for those well versed and practising their faith as it should be done, do not need this book. It can be a good reminder though, but the main focus is on ourselves and self improvement rather than just trying to walk like Messiah and keeping our eyes on HIM."

Again, thanks LLee

:tape

P.s. See this thread (http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?threadid=118298&perpage=25&pagenumber=1)

[LLee]

It is very, very late in the game. I'm glad to help a couple of people here and there, but that is all I have hope of doing.


Becki, if you read this - it's even later than we thought.

[lookinupval]

Don"t get me wrong I am sure there is a lot of good truths in ,"The Purpose Driven Life" but its the 5% untruth or poisen that can leaven the whole lump. Where is the 5%? You don't like the book because it was promoted by a publisher/agent?

Aren't Bibles printed by publishers?

I didn't see any untruths in the book. It astonishes me that people make claims about something they have never read. You can't write a book review unless you've actually read the book.

and the important thing to remember is that the book is intended to aid self-improvement through Christ.

[cameron222]

I looked over the link posted a few posts back and found some of the arguements against the book a little weak. At one point the person quotes another source other than the author and takes off on that.

The "Purpose Driven Life" is not designed to replace the Bible or Biblical teaching.

Any of you ever use a Sunday School Book, a Bible commentary, or read the "Late Great Planet Earth", etc. If so, why? Why not just use the Bible. After all....the "mature" christians understand Revelation and need no help from "outside sources."

Satan does not like this book. It has the potential to bring us closer to God. As baby boomers, we are selfish and want things "our" way. This book teaches just the opposite. Satan cannot use someone who is seeking God and God's purpose for their life. Only when there is dissension in the church and arguements and hard feelings over doctrine, can he gain a foothold and divide the bretheren.

Someone even said that they do not particularlt care for Rick Warren. Look out! He just might turn up as your next door neighbor in heaven.

[LLee]

It astonishes me that people make claims about something they have never read. You can't write a book review unless you've actually read the book.

I did. And this is what I thought about it:

http://www.geocities.com/christianconcerns/index-pdl.htm

I'm glad that you found it valuable. There are parts of it that are troublesome, though, and I think that new believers do not have the maturity to read it without getting caught up in the "musts."

There are also parts of it that are manipulative, such as in the section on maintaining unity in the church.

[lookinupval]

hmmm....I'm rather fond of unity in the church, as I'm sure Christ is.

It seems a lot of people nowadays resent the fact that they should be accountable to the church or to their brothers and sisters in Christ, so it makes sense that some would not want to be taught on the principles of maintaining unity in the church.

How can a book be manipulative? Do we not read using the intelligence that God gave us? Any time you read anything other than the Bible, it is more suggestive than manipulative...you must take what you read and compare it to scripture. So I'm just not getting the "manipulative" comment re: the book.

During the study, we referred to our Bibles several times during each meeting.

[tractsforchrist]

I thought it was a great help in my life and for someone who has not been in scripture for a while

:tape

But I guess I am not in the majority and I am going to run now...BYE!!!! *runs for her life*

[LLee]

If you read that section of my review, then you know what parts were manipulative, in my opinion.

When you read the PDL book, just stop and look up all those verses that he quotes. Was his context appropriate? Sometimes, his use of verses is perfectly appropriate. Or did he grab something with the right words to fit his point, regardless of what the verse actually means in context? Sometimes he does that, too - such as in the section on unity. And that, I call manipulative.

Again, I'm glad you found it valuable. You are not a new believer and have a much better base to evaluate from than someone who is new to their faith.

[antsinmypants]

You know, I've read more than half the book. I didn't get a thing out of it, and it's stuff I knew before-- not to mention, as LLee said, very manipulative.

I base what I say and do on the Bible and no other man's words.

I don't need a man or woman telling me how to live. I have the bible to tell me, and I read it so I know. If someone asks me, I point them to the bible, not some book.


Satan does not like this book. It has the potential to bring us closer to God. As baby boomers, we are selfish and want things "our" way.

1) I don't take kindly to being put in the lot with HaSatan. He and I have nothing in common

2) I am not a babyboomer, and though our human (adam) Nature wants everything our way-- I have known different for 17 years of my life, I will never get it my way, and if I do- G-d did it so I will learn a lesson. Lesson learned.



It seems a lot of people nowadays resent the fact that they should be accountable to the church or to their brothers and sisters in Christ, so it makes sense that some would not want to be taught on the principles of maintaining unity in the church.
[/qoute]


1) I do not resent the fact I should be accountable to my brothers and sisters. I do resent the fact that I should be held accountable to a church or congregation, unless I did something against that church or congregation.

2) about maintaining unity in the congregation-- I know about that too, It's in the bible, and the people in the congregation I attend know this as well. We have wonderful unity without the PDL books. We sing Psalms and Hymns about Unity, and we live Unity.

We also meet anywhere from 2-4 tmes in the week to be "unified", to pray together, study together and to pray for other's needs. No, I am not bragging here, but making a point.


[quote]you must take what you read and compare it to scripture. So I'm just not getting the "manipulative" comment re: the book.


There are those with discernment who see manipulation. I see manipulation, and as LLee said, most of that is due to verses out of context and misapplied.

Someone even said that they do not particularlt care for Rick Warren. Look out! He just might turn up as your next door neighbor in heaven.

That's quite all right, but his teaching, I don't care for, and I find it- as LLee said, and as I have said, as misapplied scripture adn manipulative. He's friends with many of the people in the WOF and TBN group. I have a problem with that.. especially since this book is being pushed and shoved on people more than the bible is as the primary teaching tool!

I'm sure that wasn't his intention, but he sure could put a stop to it!


and the important thing to remember is that the book is intended to aid self-improvement through Christ.

That might be so, but I find the Bible to be #1 on that, and not another man's words.

I find it quite disheartening that we are dumbing down believers with other people's literature and not encouraging them to be Bereans.

We need more Bereans!!

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Act 17:11 These were more noble than the Bereans, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.



The apostles didn't use books and say 'hey, we're reading the PDL, this is what chapter we're on... discuss amongst yourselves".

They used the bible and the truths therein.

If that was good enough for them to be using the bible that they had then (OT, until the 2nd century was there a NT) and the commentaries available... then it sure is good enough for me to be doing the same.

Commentary can be helpful.

The best "Self help" there is out there is the bible. the second, is any book about Believers who have been martyred for their faith. That's enough to make anyone want to be more like Y'shua.

[The Bearen]

Amen!

:thumb

[Rebecki]

Originally posted by LLee
It is very, very late in the game. I'm glad to help a couple of people here and there, but that is all I have hope of doing.


Becki, if you read this - it's even later than we thought.

Yep. The hour is late.

I'm reading the Purpose Driven Life right now and I fully intend on doing a write up on what I have found.

[houseparent]

Was his context appropriate? Sometimes, his use of verses is perfectly appropriate. Or did he grab something with the right words to fit his point, regardless of what the verse actually means in context?

ANyone ever see Jack Van Impe doing this?

[joyttw]

houseparent, Yup!

antsy, I agree!

Lookinupval, I understand what you are saying about unity, but some thoughts from a different vantage point: My family left our church right after the 40-day kickoff. It was a hard decision that we did not make lightly -- I cried off and on for two months and prayed a lot about it. We met with the pastors and elders. We have a very different philosophy from them on how to do church. We don't mind seeker-friendly and agreed with their theology, but there were a lot of issues involved we just strongly opposed and could not reach agreement on. If we were the only ones leaving the church, we'd think there was something wrong with us. But several families we know have left in the last two years, so we know we are not alone.

I did read through the PDL book and I know when people read the part where Rick Warren says you are spiritually immature if you leave your church, they will think: Aha, Joy and her family are being selfish and spiritually immature!

After all, that's what I'd think if I were them.

But, in two years of trying to build real community/fellowship with people (as Rick Warren describes in the book) and having no one from the church reciprocate, I don't really consider the people that attend that building on Sunday "my church." We live across the street from the church and have about 20 families in our neighborhood that go there. After numerous attempts at reaching out to these people (inviting them to our small group, throwing parties, helping move furniture, etc, for church members moving into the neighborhood), none of them reciprocated. In two years. On the other hand, many other families in the neighborhood, including several Christian families who attend other churches, have reciprocated several times and have become our best friends. So I don't believe I am leaving "my church" since church is not a building, it's the people, and I have great fellowship with the Christian neighbors I have and they are truly "my church."

So I am giving up my right to be understood by the people I attended church with the last two years. A couple of them have come to us and asked us why we were leaving and we sat down and shared with them. But no one from our neighborhood that goes there has said a word about it (except the assistant pastor with whom we talked at length).

Anyway I did like the book but agree with antsy that it just covers the basics. And as was mentioned, it is not intended to replace the Bible, but complement it. Unfortunately, I didn't see much Bible study occurring with the book and that's the reality.

[pilgrimian]

Originally posted by LLee
It is very, very late in the game. I'm glad to help a couple of people here and there, but that is all I have hope of doing.


Becki, if you read this - it's even later than we thought.

I'm usually skeptical when an author is a best-seller in the Christian world. Personally, I'm not into Max Lucado...and I never got the Prayer of Jabez either. "Experiencing God" was another one...and I was given a copy of that one. Some good things...but the writers were theologically skewed with some things. Rick Warren has gotten onto my list, too. I'm just not sure if I want to bother with him. I had see "The Purpose-Driven Church" on my dad's shelf! Wow...of all places. So I had to wonder about the next installment.

Thanks so very much LLee for evaluating the book as you did. Quite a good criticism there. I'll be forwarding it to my friends.

Commentary can be helpful. But I think exegetical teaching is the best...just go from the Bible! That's why I like Dr. Fruchtenbaum so much. He doesn't manipulate what the Scripture says.

Godspeed,
Matthew

[blessedone]

There is truely nothing new under the sun. This was a sermon given sometime in the late 1800's and it could as easily apply today, to the yuppie, designer churches propogated by Rick Warren.

Feeding Sheep or Amusing Goats?
Charles Haddon Spurgeon
(1834-1892)

An evil is in the professed camp of the Lord, so gross in its impudence, that the most shortsighted can hardly fail to notice it during the past few years. It has developed at an abnormal rate, even for evil. It has worked like leaven until the whole lump ferments. The devil has seldom done a cleverer thing than hinting to the church that part of their mission is to provide entertainment for the people, with a view to winning them.

From speaking out as the Puritans did, the church has gradually toned down her testimony, then winked at and excused the frivolities of the day. Then she tolerated them in her borders. Now she has adopted them under the plea of reaching the masses.

My first contention is that providing amusement for the people is nowhere spoken of in the Scriptures as a function of the church. If it is a Christian work, why did not Christ speak of it? "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15). That is clear enough. So it would have been if He had added, "and provide amusement for those who do not relish the gospel." No such words, however, are to be found. It did not seem to occur to him.

Then again, "He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some evangelists; and some pastors and teachers .., for the work of the ministry" (Eph. 4:11-12). Where do entertainers come in? The Holy Spirit is silent concerning them. Were the prophets persecuted because they amused the people or because they refused? The concert has no martyr roll.

Again, providing amusement is in direct antagonism to the teaching and life of Christ and all his apostles. What was the attitude of the church to the world? Ye are the salt" (Matt. 5:13), not the sugar candy---something the world will spit out not swallow. Short and sharp was the utterance, "Let the dead bury their dead" (Matt. 8:22) He was in awful earnestness.

Had Christ introduced more of the bright and pleasant elements into his mission, he would have been more popular when they went back, because of the searching nature of His teaching. I do not hear him say, "Run after these people Peter and tell them we will have a different style of service tomorrow, something short and attractive with little preaching. We will have a pleasant evening for the people. Tell them they will be sure to enjoy it. Be quick Peter, we must get the people somehow." Jesus pitied sinners, sighed and wept over them, but never sought to amuse them.

In vain will the Epistles be searched to find any trace of this gospel of amusement! Their message is, "Come out, keep out, keep clean out!" Anything approaching fooling is conspicuous by its absence. They had boundless confidence in the gospel and employed no other weapon.

After Peter and John were locked up for preaching, the church had a prayer meeting but they did not pray, "Lord grant unto thy servants that by a wise and discriminating use of innocent recreation we may show these people how happy we are." If they ceased not from preaching Christ, they had not time for arranging entertainments. Scattered by persecution, they went everywhere preaching the gospel. They turned the world upside down (Acts 17:6). That is the only difference! Lord, clear the church of all the rot and rubbish the devil has imposed on her, and bring us back to apostolic methods.

Lastly, the mission of amusement fails to effect the end desired. It works havoc among young converts. Let the careless and scoffers, who thank God because the church met them halfway, speak and testify. Let the heavy laden who found peace through the concert not keep silent! Let the drunkard to whom the dramatic entertainment has been God's link in the chain of the conversion, stand up! There are none to answer. The mission of amusement produces no converts. The need of the hour for today's ministry is believing scholarship joined with earnest spirituality, the one springing from the other as fruit from the root. The need is biblical doctrine, so understood and felt, that it sets men on fire.

[tractsforchrist]

Ok.. I have read everyone's opinions and I am going to take a deep breath and realize over and over I don't knpw everything..
:twitch

Ok.. Is there any good books that you can reccommend that do bible studies. I have a christian book store which has thousands and thousands of books, I'm sure to find whatever you suggest. I personally am not the one for the online study format because I'm the kind of person who has to have "a Book" so I can carry it everywhere.

I keep on hearing the Bible is the first place we should be looking. Ok. I'll bite. Give me a bible study book for a spiritual suckler. [No I am not ready for the meat and potatoes. Yes I am trying to go on to maturity but I can very much realize that I would throw up on the meat if I take it too fast.]

I personally don't know the bible well enough to study it on various issues.

Thats partially in fault that I grew up in a RCC church where the saddest part of all my christian private school education which had one hour of christianity classes a day, we only looked at the bible twice. I'm serious. Not joking. Spent 7 years in a christian private school with enough religious classes to knock the socks off and we NEVER EVER looked in the book. I think it was forbidden or something :B: (By the way I think I am the only RCC kid who actually tried to read the bible. Nobody taught me how or encouraged me or lead by example. One day I just started reading the bible, the OT of course though.. but it was a start.. I was kind of messed up because I think I read the RCC bible with the apocrypha. I just recalled that. That's amazing actually. Another kudos to add to my testimony because that is probably how Jesus decided I was ready for the gospel. I think I was so ready because within a short time I had accepted the prayer of salvation the first time. I was like "You can have a personal relationship with Jesus!!! Where do I sign up!")

[LSF]

If any Christian has read this book, in its entirety, and still finds fault in the 40 Days of Purpose, I would challenge that person to ask God to reveal the truth about the program to them.
From someone who spent some quality time in Utah, you probably do not realize how scarry this sentance is to me. Mormon missionaries used to ask me to pray about the Book of Mormon and ask me if I felt the "burning in the boosom." Not only that, this gives me the chance to point out the neo-gnosticism that has affected much of American Christianity.
Satan is apparently afraid of this teaching and is trying his best to undo it. Imagine millions of christians learning that their purpose is about God and not themselves. Its not a "name it and claim it" what can "I" get out of christianity. Its what can I do for God that pleases Him.
Too bad Mr. Warren spends the first chapter making this point and then spend the next 39 chapters telling us what we have to do.
The best "Self help" there is out there is the bible.
And even my friends are my enemies...

Why do people continue to think that the Bible is a book that contains principles to live by? Ten Biblical steps to improve your marrage. Fifteen ways to manage your money Biblically. Why not follow Paul and once again preach Christ crucified? Isn't that the purpose of the Bible? If Mr. Warren wanted to be truely Biblical, he would preach Christ crucified clearly somewhere within the book. Our purpose in life must be derived from that pivital event or all we are doing is trying to find new ways to earn our salvation. So, where is Christ crucified??????????????

[keynote]

LSF, great post. I am reading the first link you sent, and was shouting hooray at the first 7 or 8 points. It seems to me, though, that at about points 9, 10 and 11 Walther turns around, so that he sort of has given with one hand but takes with the other -- and that's what I see described by you that Warren is doing -- when you compared Chapter 1 with the rest of the book. And that was the best concise summary I've seen, there.

I am going to read the link more carefully, but that is my first take on it. I am not familiar with Walther, and have not yet finished reading it. so may be sorry I posted. But I may not get to it right away.

By the way I don't encourage living comfortably in mortal sin, (point 10) but trying to make that point clear in a few words is not possible. In addition, some of the terms are not clear to me -- what is the difference between contrition and repentance? for instance.

[Rebecki]

I keep on hearing the Bible is the first place we should be looking. Ok. I'll bite. Give me a bible study book for a spiritual suckler. [No I am not ready for the meat and potatoes. Yes I am trying to go on to maturity but I can very much realize that I would throw up on the meat if I take it too fast.]

tractsforchrist, I would recommend that you don't do a study, persay, but rather just read the Word of God. Most of the time the book of John is suggested for new believers. I don't know where you are in your walk with the Lord, but you have made it clear that you feel that you can only handle milktoast right now. The book of John gives the "basics" about Jesus and his reason for coming to earth. Another suggesting is to circle the word "believe" every time you come across it. It really has an impact when you see how often people just believed and didn't have to "do" anything. I can see how the Lord is working on your heart. The desire to grow and know Him is evident and I know that He will bless you in your endeavor.

Just read the book of John and let it soak into your heart. Once you have that foundation, a better understanding of our Savior, you'll be able to read any other book in the bible with a deeper understanding. Not that you're not able to comprehend any book right now, but it's important to have a grasp on the One you believe in and I think that the book of John would do just that.

God bless you in your journey to know our Savior more and more.

http://www.1scom.net/~lilbratt/Smilies/love6.gif

[antsinmypants]

Tracts-san, you have a pm.

[lookinupval]

The book of John is a good place to start, followed by all four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Gee, its so great that you folks are bereans, which makes sense since you are here at RR. I would assume that most here are good Bereans.

The 40 days of purpose program has brought life back into my church. There are more people involved in ministries than ever before.

The work of the church was being done by fewer than 10% of the people, but now the numbers are way up.

Our sanctuary was filled with pew warmers...people who HAVE read the Bible, but became Sunday Christians...but now most have renewed their commitment to Christ and are pursuing His work for them in an energetic, passionate way.

I would agree that mature Christians probably don't need the 40 Day book...but I read it for its potential to reach the lost, which is our primary purpose here on earth.

Failing to see the big picture, failing to see how God is using this program, is a shame. It is easy to say, "just read the Bible," but so many don't. I see this as a starter book, to get people interested in scripture and gaining a desire to know more.

So I believe we must look at the 40 Days as a tool for reaching the lost, nothing more, nothing less.

If you read the book with the intention of critiquing it, you are going at it with a negative, dark spirit and will only see the bad. You could do the same thing with the Bible, which is much of what the world has done.

So I'd say, don't bother reading it if you are looking to tear it apart--that is very dangerous, in my opinion, because it is filled with the Word of God, and you'd have to write your critique pretty carefully to not offend God or blaspheme his word.

And so what if it is on the best seller list? That's a pretty inane argument against any literature.

[houseparent]

After reading all these replies I can't help but wonder if the reason most don't read the bible is because they don't desire to ready some of it?

What I mean is that the word of God brings conviction into our lives. Much of it is not written to make you "feel good" as a lot of books are.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against this book or many others in any way. But I have discovered that DEEP biblical study leads to heavy conviction. Reading these books normally do not (for what ever reason but I suspect the Spirit does not speak through these books, directly anyways).

I own over 500 books (Christian books similar to this one in one way or another). Recently I have grown a lot more from just bible study.

I find that intresting.

[lookinupval]

Well, at least we all agree on one thing: the Bible is the ultimate source for our learning and growth. I'd be lost without it. Literally.

[LSF]

Originally posted by keynote
LSF, great post. I am reading the first link you sent, and was shouting hooray at the first 7 or 8 points. It seems to me, though, that at about points 9, 10 and 11 Walther turns around, so that he sort of has given with one hand but takes with the other -- and that's what I see described by you that Warren is doing -- when you compared Chapter 1 with the rest of the book. And that was the best concise summary I've seen, there.

I am going to read the link more carefully, but that is my first take on it. I am not familiar with Walther, and have not yet finished reading it. so may be sorry I posted. But I may not get to it right away.

By the way I don't encourage living comfortably in mortal sin, (point 10) but trying to make that point clear in a few words is not possible. In addition, some of the terms are not clear to me -- what is the difference between contrition and repentance? for instance.
Keep in mind a couple of things.
1) Walther is a Lutheran (as I am) and he comes at many of his theses from that background. Some of his later theses you may have a problem with as well because they deal with the sacraments.
2) The translation is from the 1930s (yes I said translation). Even though Walther was an American pastor, he was also an imigrant from Germany. He is the founding president of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod which used German up until the 1920s-1940s, depending on where you were at.
3) You might also try this link (http://www.atonement.org/Beliefs/lg2_main.htm). They modernized the translation, so many of the ills you perceive might not be there.

[Rebecki]

So I'd say, don't bother reading it if you are looking to tear it apart--that is very dangerous, in my opinion, because it is filled with the Word of God, and you'd have to write your critique pretty carefully to not offend God or blaspheme his word.

I guess then that the Berean Christians were doing something pretty dangerous then when they compared Paul's words to Scripture to see if what he was saying was true? For the record, before I sit down to read PDL I pray and ask God for his Wisdom to see error and the ability to see his Truth in Warren's book. I've seen both in there so far and I'm not above stating that. Now, here is something that a friend pointed out to me who was reading it because she thought it looked like a good book to read, but when she read it, found some error but was willing to continue reading. That is until she found a blatant lie in the book...

In the Chapter called “Day 13”, page 105, in the 2nd paragraph Rick Warren says…

“You have heard people say, ‘I can’t make it to the meeting tonight, but I’ll be with you in spirit’ Do you know what that means? Nothing. It’s worthless! As long as you’re on earth, your spirit can only be where your body is. If your body isn’t there, neither are you.”

This is a direct contradiction to what Paul says in Colossians 2:5 “For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ.” NKJV

So, either Paul is lying to the people in Colosse, or Rick Warren is lying to the readers of his book.


So which is it? Is Paul lying or is Rick Warren? Is God's Word true, every jot and tittle, or is Rick Warren's knowledge above God's Word?

...it is filled with the Word of God

There are tons of scripture verses in Warren's book. I believe that serves two purposes. One, because who would take the time and go through every single verse to make sure it was in context, so by shear quantity Warren overwhelms you with scripture, knowing that you will just take it for what he says, and two, so that he could have some kind of scriptural support to his opinions, whether the verses were in context or not. Do I assume too much? Perhaps. But I don't think so.

I also went through the back of the book in the Appendix and counted how often Rick Warren used different bible versions. You might think I’m being nit-picky or “looking for something to tear apart”, but that is not the case. Let me preface what I am about to list with this statement: I have no problem with using a couple of bible translations in order to get a point across, as long as both versions do not take the verses out of context. Now, that being said, here is the list…

*The Amplified Bible – quoted 4 times
*Contemporary English Version – quoted 47 times
*God’s Word Translation – quoted 26 times
*King James Version – quoted 13 times
*Living Bible – quoted 63 times
*The Message –quoted 99 times
*New American Bible – I did not see any quotes from this bible, but Warren lists it. (Interesting side note… it’s published by “Catholic Press”)
*New American Standard Bible – quoted 7 times
*New Century Version – quoted 54 times
*New International Version – quoted 107 times
*New Jerusalem Bible – quoted 3 times
*New Living Translation – quoted 121 times:eek
*New Revised Standard Version – quoted 5 times
*New Testament in Modern English (Ph.) – quoted 6 times
*Today’s English Version – quoted 76 times

What I find very interesting is the fact that Warren quotes two bibles that are known to be “translated” by two individual men acting independently from each other… The Living Bible and The Message. I have a problem with both of these versions because men, on their own, without any kind of accountability, “translated” the bible. I do not know about these men’s training in theology or schooling or how many letters they have after their names, or whether they have an accurate understanding of the original Greek and Hebrew, but I would NOT give a new believer a LB or The Message bible. These books are paraphrases. The American Heritage Dictionary says the word paraphrase means “a restatement of a text or passage.” Yet many believers think that Warren’s book is a great book for new believers, even though scripture quoted from these two bibles together total 162 and possibly more. The NIV is only quoted 107 times and the most quoted individual version is the New Living Translation. So in comparison, the translations of two individual men are quoted more times than translations of scripture that have been translated by known theologians.

Looks to me that perhaps Rick Warren should heed the advice to be careful to not offend God or His Word. What I am doing is nothing more and nothing less than what the Bereans did, which is what many on this board agree is the correct way to approach ALL things.

It's funny... I’ve noticed since beginning to study and discuss the errors of the PDC/L that people get so defensive. I think that a person would have a natural desire to read and study and see if what they have been told or read is true to scripture. Yet when someone tries to do what the Berean Chrisitans did, they are criticized or labeled as someone trying to cause trouble. Perhaps if people would just step away from the trend and their loyalty to the people supporting the trends, they would see what’s really going on.

[yankeedownsouth]

Great post, Rebecki!! :nod :nod

[Byfaith]

Our church is starting this in Jan. I am unsure whether I will attend the class. I need more pros and cons to decide for myself.:confused

[LLee]

I agree. Good post!

You know, the reason that Rebecki, Yankeedownsouth, me and others have pointed some things out is not because we're being mean spirited. We don't do it to try to make ourselves look smart or because we can't stand to see people enjoy something.

In fact, given a choice, I would rather stay silent.

I just can't. I've seen too many people get hurt already. It starts out OK. They read the book or do the program or whatever - and get all fired up. They've never felt closer to God - never more connected to their church. They take a class to find out their spiritual gifts and then set to work.

But, after a while, the momentum starts to slow down. The work gets long and hard and boring and even irritating. And God starts to feel far away. Time to read the book again - or get remotivated with another program. But this time, the connection doesn't seem to be there as strongly. In fact, after enough of the programs, it just feels kind of empty.

Why? After talking to enough people, I have a guess, but no concrete answers. My guess is that this is a man-thing, not a God thing. Unless the person ALSO gets immersed in the Bible, all this "stuff" turns into things that gets put ON you, instead of being Holy Spirit led.

That doesn't mean it happens to everyone. Sometimes the book or the program is just the prod that you need to get you back into the Bible. God's Word is the fuel that you need to keep going in this world. Otherwise it's like trying to drive your car without ever filling the gas tank. The momentum will keep you going for a while, but eventually, the car stops.

It especially bothers me when I hear new believers praising the PDL book. Sure, there are parts that are great, but there are parts that are not. Particularly troublesome are the number of times that Rick Warren uses verses out of context. Check it out for yourself. Why does he do that? Does he not know any better? In that case, we'd better be cautious about looking to him for spiritual guidance. Or, does he do it deliberately? If so, why?

When you find a verse used out of context, check the section that it's in. Does a pattern start to appear? I have found the biggest misuse of Scripture in the sections that support the whole "Purpose Driven" program. Why? Is it possible that our gatherings are NOT meant to draw unbelievers in? Is it possible that Warren must skew the use of Scripture in those sections because otherwise he has no biblical basis to support his vision of how to do church?

I'm not saying that people should go burn their PDL books - just read them with eyes wide open. We are told to test EVERYTHING. When you come to Scripture, look it up. Read the chapter that it appears in. It will slow down your study, but think how valuable it would be to dig into the Word itself! Pick a Bible version that is as accurate as possible, and just read each and every quote in context. If Warren's use of it is appropriate, great! Absorb it! If not, reject it.

I know there are many, many people who disagree with us, but in love, we must continue to speak out.

[houseparent]

Why? After talking to enough people, I have a guess, but no concrete answers. My guess is that this is a man-thing, not a God thing. Unless the person ALSO gets immersed in the Bible, all this "stuff" turns into things that gets put ON you, instead of being Holy Spirit led.

THis is absolutely TRUE! I know because I lived it for years. I own over 500 books/study guide and while they are all ok in their own right, they do not substitute for the bible!

I am ashamed to admit this, but sometimes I would read a book and when it listed a scripture passage I would skip it to keep reading the book trusting that the author made his point!:doh

I am strictly the BIBLE now except for my College classes, but they, while using text books also use a bible open beside you at the same time!

[Rebecki]

I am ashamed to admit this, but sometimes I would read a book and when it listed a scripture passage I would skip it to keep reading the book trusting that the author made his point!

Houseparent, so many people do this. I was one of them. Until I realized just how important context was when I was doing a bible study a few years ago. Yes, it makes reading a book a bit more time consuming, but if the author has used the verses in context, it makes the book even more rewarding. If the author has taken the verses out of context, I have no further need to continue reading it.

All that we ever need to know about living life can be found in One book, the Bible. Everything else is just man's opinion, which still needs to be weighed against scripture.

[Ynott]

quoted by lookinupval~

The 40 days of purpose program has brought life back into my church. There are more people involved in ministries than ever before.

I already "did my time" on this topic.....Lots of threads if you do a search.

So, I won't "cover it all again" here.

But I must say, that your statement, Val, really really bothered me.

How did a book written by a mere mortal bring "life back into your church"?

I thought only Christ could do that.

I know what you meant (I think), but perhaps your statement was more telling than you thought...a freudian slip perhaps?

Oh well....((((val))) love you anyway. :tape

[John Tyson]

Grace and peace to you all.

My church completed the 40 Days of Purpose last month and it was profitable.

God bless,
John

[antsinmypants]

Originally posted by Rebecki
*New Living Translation – quoted

Personally Rebeki, this is the only problem I have with your post.

I use the NLT when researching in Greek and Hebrew-- and by far, I have found it 96% more accurate than my KJV is.

I use it side by side with several other translations, and atleast with the Hebrew, it matches 99% of the time, when the KJV matches 95%.

It uses the same texts as the KJV.


Otherwise, you got it dead on.

[matheteou]

Originally posted by antsinmypants
Personally Rebeki, this is the only problem I have with your post.

I use the NLT when researching in Greek and Hebrew-- and by far, I have found it 96% more accurate than my KJV is.

I use it side by side with several other translations, and atleast with the Hebrew, it matches 99% of the time, when the KJV matches 95%.

It uses the same texts as the KJV.


Otherwise, you got it dead on. Ants, you had better go back and reread the intro to your NLT b/c the New Testament is from the UBS4/NA26/27 texts not the TR/Byzantine Majority texts.

I do enjoy the NLT for reading and as a different approach, but then I use the (N)KJV, NASB, NIV, NET, HSCB, ESV, and the Greek and Hebrew texts also.

[Rebecki]

Thank you Ants for your input. I didn't know that about the NLT. I'll check into that. I do own a NLT, but rarely ever open it anymore. Like I said, my favs are the NKJV and the NASB.

I guess my suprise at the amount of times the NLT is quoted is that I, personally, have a hard time with it. I dunno, it just reads like a novel and I've done some research on it and found that it does leave out some verses that the NKJV has.

My intentions of putting that list in my post was not to start a bible translations debate (so I hope this thread doesn't go that route), but rather, to point out what I feel that Mr. Warren is trying to do with so many different translations.

:):

[matheteou]

Originally posted by Rebecki
Thank you Ants for your input. I didn't know that about the NLT. I'll check into that. I do own a NLT, but rarely ever open it anymore. Like I said, my favs are the NKJV and the NASB.

I guess my suprise at the amount of times the NLT is quoted is that I, personally, have a hard time with it. I dunno, it just reads like a novel and I've done some research on it and found that it does leave out some verses that the NKJV has.

My intentions of putting that list in my post was not to start a bible translations debate (so I hope this thread doesn't go that route), but rather, to point out what I feel that Mr. Warren is trying to do with so many different translations.

:): Then why mention the verses the NLT left out or maybe the ones the (N)KJV added?

Actually it's the difference between the CT and MT textual families.

[Rebecki]

Then why mention the verses the NLT left out or maybe the ones the (N)KJV added?

:rolleyes

The thing is... I didn't mention any verses. I just stated my opinion. Can you just leave it at that instead of trying to read something into what I said?

[matheteou]

Originally posted by Rebecki
:rolleyes

The thing is... I didn't mention any verses. I just stated my opinion. Can you just leave it at that instead of trying to read something into what I said? Sure can, but to let you know, here is what caught my attention:I've done some research on it and found that it does leave out some verses that the NKJV has.You didn't have to post any verses as that is a :deadhorse

[Rebecki]

Okay, I understand where you'd think I was headed into a discussion about bible versions. Thanks for pointing that out. :):

I guess I was just givine an explaination about why I, personally, don't care for the NLT. Honestly, I wasn't trying to get a version discussion going. I don't know much about the different bible versions and I'm not the least bit interested in getting involved in a discussion/debte over it. God has me busy studying/reading this whole PDC/L movement.

Thanks matheteou for pointing that out to me and I'll try to steer clear of anything that would begin a verstion debate.

:):

[The Bearen]

Hi folks

here's another link to a great article by Breit Kjos.

The article is entitled,'Spirit Led or Purpose driven'

www.crossroad.to/articles2/2003/1-purpose-htm#1.

I love the way Berit writes with such clarity and she's straight to the point.

:thumb

[The Bearen]

Sorry I see that link did'nt work try: www.crossroad.2/ and then when the website opens up click the title of the article.

:D:

[The Bearen]

A big SORRY I've done another mistake its: www.crossroad.to/:D:

[glorymj]

Originally posted by The Bearen
www.crossroad.to/articles2/2003/1-purpose-htm#1.
I haven't read the article, but I think this is the url you are looking for:

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2003/1-purpose.htm

[The Bearen]

Thanks GloryJ:thumb

[Leigh]

Good article.

[jerbear]

If the object of your complete faith isn't Jesus Christ and him crucified, then you are in the wrong place. The Bible and The Holy Spirit to guide you is all you need for a purpose driven life. Man made laws and psychology WILL NOT get you there.:angel

[Rebecki]

Originally posted by jerbear
If the object of your complete faith isn't Jesus Christ and him crucified, then you are in the wrong place. The Bible and The Holy Spirit to guide you is all you need for a purpose driven life. Man made laws and psychology WILL NOT get you there.:angel

Good point Jerbear. What I would like to know is what's going to happen when those who read this book are no longer able to continue to do the "works" that Warren writes of. The guilt will be horrible.

[The Bearen]

Amen Rebecki

At face value a lot of the stuff that Rick Warren says sounds good but when you look deeper and you see what this programme has really done to churches you can see the deception.

This whole thing is man centered, I worry about my church going in this direction, I am also praying and may soon make a complete break.

Dave