Carlosabc
November 20th, 2003, 08:57 PM
Please let me know what you think of this letter to my niece. We got into a nice debate about the parables and its meaning.
Seems some will interprate the parables in a different way.
Please read and let me know your thoughts. Thanks.
Dear Joy Joy- Sunday Nov. 16, 2003 11:19 PM
This is an e-mail in response to our conversation last night about the parables. I hope you don’t mind me calling you Joy Joy. Because you are certainly a joy to speak to. I enjoyed our little chat Saturday night.
It was also good to hear you say ‘I’m still learning and growing’ (in spiritual matters). I can say the same about myself. As I read God’s Word, I realize how ignorant I was about certain Biblical topics. I have read certain verses over and over through the years, and "Whaammm!" The same verse which I didn’t understand for all those many years has suddenly sunk in! I catch on at a certain time. This happens every now and then. I’m still learning just like you.
This e-mail though is in direct response to what you said last night during the (Edited) Fellowship. You said something to the extent that both interpretations concerning the parable of the ‘The Leaven’ can be taken as truth. I know where you are coming from when you say that. On the surface, that sounds right, but when you dig deep into the meanings behind the symbols, you can see that the meaning behind what Christ was telling would contradict each other if you attempt to utilize both interpretations as truth. I said last night that in order to take both versions of this parable as truth, you must ignore the already established meanings behind the symbols. (Or something like that).
Each symbol, The Wheat & Tares, The Good and bad fishes, The Net, The Leaven, each of these represent something in reality. Where do we find the reality of these symbolic meanings? In God’s Word of course.
1 Cor. 2: 13 says: Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
We must compare spiritual things with spiritual. When speaking of parables, the symbols can throw us off if we do not compare them with its Biblical designated meaning found in the Old and New Testaments.
Back to the parable we talked about. This is what I mean: In Mathew 13:33, it says: Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. (KJV)
Great verse. Nice, short and sweet. But what does it mean? Two ways to interpret this.
A. The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, (False doctrine and teachings) which a woman took and snuck into the Word of God till the whole Word became corrupted.
Or;
B. The Kingdom of God can be compared to a woman that took leaven (synonymous with the gospel message) and hid or mixed into the meal (The Word of God) till the whole world was converted. This is great! Imagine, the whole world being converted to Christ because of the leaven being mixed into the Word of God!
Or;
C. (Saying that both versions are correct would go) The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, (False doctrine, teachings and/or the gospel message) hid or mixed into the meal
(The Word of God) till the whole world was converted and corrupted.
Please take another look at A, B, and C. My question to you is: is it really possible to say that you can take both versions of this interpretation concerning THE LEAVEN parable, and mix the two (A&B) to say that both versions can be taught as truth (C)?
If the answer is yes, please let me know how to better interpret the incorporation of the two. Or better, what might the "C" version of this parable look like if both versions of the interpretation is correct?
Joy, here is three more questions for you. Please let me know the answers to the following:
1. Why do some people say that the leaven is a good gospel message influence in this parable?
2. Where in the Bible can someone find the interpretation about the leaven being good? Which verses back that up?
3rd question for you Joy is this. If the parable of THE LEAVEN really represents the truth that the Leaven influence will convert the world ("till the whole was leavened), then why would anyone in the "Kingdom of Heaven" be on their way to eternal damnation according to the parable of the NET, and the Wheat and Tares? (Which also describe the Kingdom of Heaven).
I look forward to your answers to these four questions
__________________
This is why I think the leaven is a bad thing.
First I must establish this one thought. When one thinks of heaven, there is usually the thoughts of angles, clouds, bright lights, a great white throne, sunshine etc. the place where Christians go when we die. These thoughts of heaven are ingrained into our thinking process when we hear the location "Kingdom of Heaven". I see most people find it difficult to break away from that thought process.
But in the parables, there is another meaning here concerning "The Kingdom of Heaven" Look at this verse below. Matt. 13: 24 - another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. (KJV)
How is this possible? Jesus is describing the "Kingdom of Heaven". There are enemies in the kingdom of heaven? How could that be? Look what the enemy did in the kingdom of heaven. He sowed tares among the wheat! So the ‘kingdom of heaven’ in this context is not the heaven we know to be; where the saved go after they die. Am I right? The kingdom of heaven (please don’t stop reading after this sentence) is right here on earth. Why do I say this? (Luke 17:20-21) says: "One day the Pharisees asked Jesus, "When will the Kingdom of God begin?" Jesus replied, "The Kingdom of God isn't ushered in with visible signs. You won't be able to say, 'It has begun here in this place or there in that part of the country.' For the Kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:20-21)
Keep in mind that Jesus Christ says this. Its in the Bible. To refute this means that you have to change the meaning of the parable in the context it was used. The Kingdom of heaven is here! On this Earth. Live, in living color. Those in the "Kingdom of Heaven" are those who are Christians and those who claim to be Christians. (Wheat & Tares) So please let us establish the fact that the ‘The Kingdom of Heaven’ represents people who are really Christians and people who profess to be Christians on this earth. And one day there will be a great seperation of the two. Not everyone who says ’Lord Lord" is saved. (I forget where that verse is). The ’Kingdom of heaven’ is here, it is now. It is Christendom in this age of grace for the past 2000 years. It has wheat and tares, good fishes, and bad fishes etc. There are many unsaved people in these parables described as being in ‘the kingdom of heaven‘.
I must ask you here Joy, do you agree with the above so far?
I now build upon that thought by moving on to the leaven. This is why I believe it is a bad thing. Leaven is used metaphorically in the Bible as an evil or bad influence, false doctrine, pride or corruption. Its referred to in a negative way in the Bible. To counter this meaning is to miss the true meaning of the parable concerning THE LEAVEN.
More Examples:
* The use of leaven was forbidden in food offerings dedicated to the Lord by fire. When the Exodus occurred, the
Israelites had eaten unleavened bread because of their quick departure from Egypt (Ex. 12:34, 39).
* The practice of this first Passover was continued in all observations of the Passover thereafter, even to this day. My studies say "The Passover typifies a certain experience of believer during this age. As Paul says.
* "Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us; Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth (1 Cor. 5:7, 8,9).
* We are told that leaven is strictly forbidden to be used in the temple or in the worship of the Lord (Exod. 23:18; Lev. 2:11). Why these prohibitions? Because fermentation signifies a process of corruption. Leaven is used by Jesus Christ in His teachings, always in a bad sense.
* Jesus Christ said "Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees" (Matt. 16:6, 11-12). Here the leaven refers to the hypocrisy and the doctrine of those sects. The doctrine of the Sadducees was false. They were rationalist of their day who denied the resurrection, the miraculous, or the existence of angels". With this mountain of biblical evidence, how could someone say that the leaven is a good thing? A good gospel message influence that converts the world?
* Jesus Christ warned us about the leaven of Herod (Mark 8:15), This was the leaven of cruelty and unbelief.
* In Galatians we read of leaven's permeating the whole lump (Gal. 5:9). This was an attempt by the legalists to add law to grace. Any attempt to put the child of God under the law is legalism and was considered by Paul as the leavening of the Gospel.
Doctrines of Pharisees, & Matt: 16:6; Mat:16:12; Ungodly professors 1 Cor. :5:6-7; False teachers Gal: 5:8; Gal: 5:9; Malice and wickedness 1Cor. 5:8.
I’ve studied this awhile back and my studies also say:
* "It was leaven which was found in the Corinthian Church, where there was a following after personalities, uncleanness, criticism, legal proceedings, fornication, covetousness, and misuses of the gifts. There were false apostles, false prophets and teachers. Paul told them to purge out the old leaven, the old lump, that they might become a new lump. Today the leaven of selfishness, the leaven of works of the flesh, the leaven of worldliness is creeping into the church. (Notice- The Bible mentions about how certain men creep into the church while the church is unaware (Jude 4). These men teach doctrine that are not in line with the word of God. Surely all this evidence must make it clear that the leaven of the parable is not something good, but evil".
And to say that the Leaven represents a good and bad influence will cause someone to miss the biblical truth that Christ taught. I’m hoping I could have some solid biblical evidence that the leaven in the parables are something that’s good. But I have found none. On top of all this, I log onto the Christian web site: "Raptureready.com" and they have a series of Bulletin boards where we discuss and debate certain Biblical topics. Last year I debated about THE LEAVEN. The responses were divided. Some for and against the Leaven being a bad influence. I found no Biblical evidence for the Leaven being a good influence. (No Scripture)
When I asked on the B/B to show in the Bible where the leaven could be used as a good gospel like influence in this parable, I never received a straight answer.
Basically they would say "Because it just is" sort of answer. I was also told not to dive too deep into the meanings of the symbols. I never received any grounded biblical answers to the question: Where in the Bible is Leaven used as being a good gospel like influence?
Some thoughts below are Gordon Lindsay’s, the author of "The Life And Teachings Of Christ". And some of the thoughts below are mine as well. (I mixed the two).
The parable also says that "a woman took"... This means she has unauthorized possession of. What does she do with this leaven that she took? She sneaks it into the bread. The work of the woman was not a open work, but a stealthy one. She "hid" the leaven in the meal. It was a covert act, like the enemy who sowed the tares under the cover of night. So it is that those who bring evil into the Church do so slyly under the pretense that they are bringing in a benefit. Their practices are all glorified and made out to be a good thing.
Some people (who are well meaning and have good intentions) can not see this as a bad thing, and will often refuse to except any other answer to the symbolic meanings of the parables. This derails the true meaning Christ taught us. He taught us how the ’Kingdom of heaven’ would start out small, and as time goes by, it would become bigger and bigger all the while having an evil influence, corruption, false doctrine etc. These parables are connected to the point where the evil (in the Kingdom of heaven) must be picked out and thrown into the everlasting fire. (THE NET) The meal (bread) represents the Body of Christ.
Before His crucifixion, Jesus instituted the Lord's supper: "And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed it and broke it, and gave to the disciples and said, Take, eat; this is My body" (Matt.26:26). By His sacrifice, Christ became the Bread of life for His people, that they may eat of Him and find forgiveness of sin and eternal life. Therefore, the meal (bread) represents the Body of Christ". These parables are dealing with the development of the Kingdom of Heaven during the Church age. That is why I believe the leaven is symbolic of something that represents bad doctrine, bad teachings etc. in these parables.
Joy, there is more I wish to touch up upon on this but I must retire for bed right now. I hope you have enough time to answer the four questions above. If not, I’ll understand that you are very busy.
God bless and hope to hear from ya soon. And thanks for being a great niece who is still seeking and searching scripture like Christ wants us too.
Y.I.C.J. Uncle Carlos
PS. 2 Tim 2:15: Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
I hope you can answer the four questions above. And later I’d like to fill you in on why studying and understanding these parables is so important. Especially when you become a teacher and pass these Biblical teachings onto others.
Notice to Raptureready.com readers. I never received an e-mail from my niece in responce to this e-mail.
Seems some will interprate the parables in a different way.
Please read and let me know your thoughts. Thanks.
Dear Joy Joy- Sunday Nov. 16, 2003 11:19 PM
This is an e-mail in response to our conversation last night about the parables. I hope you don’t mind me calling you Joy Joy. Because you are certainly a joy to speak to. I enjoyed our little chat Saturday night.
It was also good to hear you say ‘I’m still learning and growing’ (in spiritual matters). I can say the same about myself. As I read God’s Word, I realize how ignorant I was about certain Biblical topics. I have read certain verses over and over through the years, and "Whaammm!" The same verse which I didn’t understand for all those many years has suddenly sunk in! I catch on at a certain time. This happens every now and then. I’m still learning just like you.
This e-mail though is in direct response to what you said last night during the (Edited) Fellowship. You said something to the extent that both interpretations concerning the parable of the ‘The Leaven’ can be taken as truth. I know where you are coming from when you say that. On the surface, that sounds right, but when you dig deep into the meanings behind the symbols, you can see that the meaning behind what Christ was telling would contradict each other if you attempt to utilize both interpretations as truth. I said last night that in order to take both versions of this parable as truth, you must ignore the already established meanings behind the symbols. (Or something like that).
Each symbol, The Wheat & Tares, The Good and bad fishes, The Net, The Leaven, each of these represent something in reality. Where do we find the reality of these symbolic meanings? In God’s Word of course.
1 Cor. 2: 13 says: Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
We must compare spiritual things with spiritual. When speaking of parables, the symbols can throw us off if we do not compare them with its Biblical designated meaning found in the Old and New Testaments.
Back to the parable we talked about. This is what I mean: In Mathew 13:33, it says: Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. (KJV)
Great verse. Nice, short and sweet. But what does it mean? Two ways to interpret this.
A. The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, (False doctrine and teachings) which a woman took and snuck into the Word of God till the whole Word became corrupted.
Or;
B. The Kingdom of God can be compared to a woman that took leaven (synonymous with the gospel message) and hid or mixed into the meal (The Word of God) till the whole world was converted. This is great! Imagine, the whole world being converted to Christ because of the leaven being mixed into the Word of God!
Or;
C. (Saying that both versions are correct would go) The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, (False doctrine, teachings and/or the gospel message) hid or mixed into the meal
(The Word of God) till the whole world was converted and corrupted.
Please take another look at A, B, and C. My question to you is: is it really possible to say that you can take both versions of this interpretation concerning THE LEAVEN parable, and mix the two (A&B) to say that both versions can be taught as truth (C)?
If the answer is yes, please let me know how to better interpret the incorporation of the two. Or better, what might the "C" version of this parable look like if both versions of the interpretation is correct?
Joy, here is three more questions for you. Please let me know the answers to the following:
1. Why do some people say that the leaven is a good gospel message influence in this parable?
2. Where in the Bible can someone find the interpretation about the leaven being good? Which verses back that up?
3rd question for you Joy is this. If the parable of THE LEAVEN really represents the truth that the Leaven influence will convert the world ("till the whole was leavened), then why would anyone in the "Kingdom of Heaven" be on their way to eternal damnation according to the parable of the NET, and the Wheat and Tares? (Which also describe the Kingdom of Heaven).
I look forward to your answers to these four questions
__________________
This is why I think the leaven is a bad thing.
First I must establish this one thought. When one thinks of heaven, there is usually the thoughts of angles, clouds, bright lights, a great white throne, sunshine etc. the place where Christians go when we die. These thoughts of heaven are ingrained into our thinking process when we hear the location "Kingdom of Heaven". I see most people find it difficult to break away from that thought process.
But in the parables, there is another meaning here concerning "The Kingdom of Heaven" Look at this verse below. Matt. 13: 24 - another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. (KJV)
How is this possible? Jesus is describing the "Kingdom of Heaven". There are enemies in the kingdom of heaven? How could that be? Look what the enemy did in the kingdom of heaven. He sowed tares among the wheat! So the ‘kingdom of heaven’ in this context is not the heaven we know to be; where the saved go after they die. Am I right? The kingdom of heaven (please don’t stop reading after this sentence) is right here on earth. Why do I say this? (Luke 17:20-21) says: "One day the Pharisees asked Jesus, "When will the Kingdom of God begin?" Jesus replied, "The Kingdom of God isn't ushered in with visible signs. You won't be able to say, 'It has begun here in this place or there in that part of the country.' For the Kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:20-21)
Keep in mind that Jesus Christ says this. Its in the Bible. To refute this means that you have to change the meaning of the parable in the context it was used. The Kingdom of heaven is here! On this Earth. Live, in living color. Those in the "Kingdom of Heaven" are those who are Christians and those who claim to be Christians. (Wheat & Tares) So please let us establish the fact that the ‘The Kingdom of Heaven’ represents people who are really Christians and people who profess to be Christians on this earth. And one day there will be a great seperation of the two. Not everyone who says ’Lord Lord" is saved. (I forget where that verse is). The ’Kingdom of heaven’ is here, it is now. It is Christendom in this age of grace for the past 2000 years. It has wheat and tares, good fishes, and bad fishes etc. There are many unsaved people in these parables described as being in ‘the kingdom of heaven‘.
I must ask you here Joy, do you agree with the above so far?
I now build upon that thought by moving on to the leaven. This is why I believe it is a bad thing. Leaven is used metaphorically in the Bible as an evil or bad influence, false doctrine, pride or corruption. Its referred to in a negative way in the Bible. To counter this meaning is to miss the true meaning of the parable concerning THE LEAVEN.
More Examples:
* The use of leaven was forbidden in food offerings dedicated to the Lord by fire. When the Exodus occurred, the
Israelites had eaten unleavened bread because of their quick departure from Egypt (Ex. 12:34, 39).
* The practice of this first Passover was continued in all observations of the Passover thereafter, even to this day. My studies say "The Passover typifies a certain experience of believer during this age. As Paul says.
* "Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us; Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth (1 Cor. 5:7, 8,9).
* We are told that leaven is strictly forbidden to be used in the temple or in the worship of the Lord (Exod. 23:18; Lev. 2:11). Why these prohibitions? Because fermentation signifies a process of corruption. Leaven is used by Jesus Christ in His teachings, always in a bad sense.
* Jesus Christ said "Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees" (Matt. 16:6, 11-12). Here the leaven refers to the hypocrisy and the doctrine of those sects. The doctrine of the Sadducees was false. They were rationalist of their day who denied the resurrection, the miraculous, or the existence of angels". With this mountain of biblical evidence, how could someone say that the leaven is a good thing? A good gospel message influence that converts the world?
* Jesus Christ warned us about the leaven of Herod (Mark 8:15), This was the leaven of cruelty and unbelief.
* In Galatians we read of leaven's permeating the whole lump (Gal. 5:9). This was an attempt by the legalists to add law to grace. Any attempt to put the child of God under the law is legalism and was considered by Paul as the leavening of the Gospel.
Doctrines of Pharisees, & Matt: 16:6; Mat:16:12; Ungodly professors 1 Cor. :5:6-7; False teachers Gal: 5:8; Gal: 5:9; Malice and wickedness 1Cor. 5:8.
I’ve studied this awhile back and my studies also say:
* "It was leaven which was found in the Corinthian Church, where there was a following after personalities, uncleanness, criticism, legal proceedings, fornication, covetousness, and misuses of the gifts. There were false apostles, false prophets and teachers. Paul told them to purge out the old leaven, the old lump, that they might become a new lump. Today the leaven of selfishness, the leaven of works of the flesh, the leaven of worldliness is creeping into the church. (Notice- The Bible mentions about how certain men creep into the church while the church is unaware (Jude 4). These men teach doctrine that are not in line with the word of God. Surely all this evidence must make it clear that the leaven of the parable is not something good, but evil".
And to say that the Leaven represents a good and bad influence will cause someone to miss the biblical truth that Christ taught. I’m hoping I could have some solid biblical evidence that the leaven in the parables are something that’s good. But I have found none. On top of all this, I log onto the Christian web site: "Raptureready.com" and they have a series of Bulletin boards where we discuss and debate certain Biblical topics. Last year I debated about THE LEAVEN. The responses were divided. Some for and against the Leaven being a bad influence. I found no Biblical evidence for the Leaven being a good influence. (No Scripture)
When I asked on the B/B to show in the Bible where the leaven could be used as a good gospel like influence in this parable, I never received a straight answer.
Basically they would say "Because it just is" sort of answer. I was also told not to dive too deep into the meanings of the symbols. I never received any grounded biblical answers to the question: Where in the Bible is Leaven used as being a good gospel like influence?
Some thoughts below are Gordon Lindsay’s, the author of "The Life And Teachings Of Christ". And some of the thoughts below are mine as well. (I mixed the two).
The parable also says that "a woman took"... This means she has unauthorized possession of. What does she do with this leaven that she took? She sneaks it into the bread. The work of the woman was not a open work, but a stealthy one. She "hid" the leaven in the meal. It was a covert act, like the enemy who sowed the tares under the cover of night. So it is that those who bring evil into the Church do so slyly under the pretense that they are bringing in a benefit. Their practices are all glorified and made out to be a good thing.
Some people (who are well meaning and have good intentions) can not see this as a bad thing, and will often refuse to except any other answer to the symbolic meanings of the parables. This derails the true meaning Christ taught us. He taught us how the ’Kingdom of heaven’ would start out small, and as time goes by, it would become bigger and bigger all the while having an evil influence, corruption, false doctrine etc. These parables are connected to the point where the evil (in the Kingdom of heaven) must be picked out and thrown into the everlasting fire. (THE NET) The meal (bread) represents the Body of Christ.
Before His crucifixion, Jesus instituted the Lord's supper: "And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed it and broke it, and gave to the disciples and said, Take, eat; this is My body" (Matt.26:26). By His sacrifice, Christ became the Bread of life for His people, that they may eat of Him and find forgiveness of sin and eternal life. Therefore, the meal (bread) represents the Body of Christ". These parables are dealing with the development of the Kingdom of Heaven during the Church age. That is why I believe the leaven is symbolic of something that represents bad doctrine, bad teachings etc. in these parables.
Joy, there is more I wish to touch up upon on this but I must retire for bed right now. I hope you have enough time to answer the four questions above. If not, I’ll understand that you are very busy.
God bless and hope to hear from ya soon. And thanks for being a great niece who is still seeking and searching scripture like Christ wants us too.
Y.I.C.J. Uncle Carlos
PS. 2 Tim 2:15: Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
I hope you can answer the four questions above. And later I’d like to fill you in on why studying and understanding these parables is so important. Especially when you become a teacher and pass these Biblical teachings onto others.
Notice to Raptureready.com readers. I never received an e-mail from my niece in responce to this e-mail.