how far into false doctrine can a preacher go and

[RJs here]

still be considered *safe*

~ as in 1. not leading ppl astray and
2. not on the way to hell himself??

:confused



I am not sure I am EXPLAINING This as eloquently as I intend to....:freaked


B/c mainly, I'm just trying to get around *naming names* here.


But the ones I guess I'm specifically thinking of.... are like some of the big WOF gurus......


I know preachers are held to a higher standard, and no one is to add or take away from the Word of God.


But what about ~ when someone errantly twists & turns it -- or just merely MISUNDERSTANDS it themselves & passes such teaching on??

What about ppl in THIS category?


AAAARGH ~ I will go ahead & post this for now -- even though I cannot seem to explain it the way I am THINKING it!!.....

[glorymj]

I think I understand what you are saying RJ. It probably depends on what they are misleading about. Core doctrines I don't think can be trifled with irregardless of whether or not someone does it intentionally. Just because they aren't qualified to teach doesn't mean they aren't saved. It just means they shouldn't be teaching. :):

[Mrs. Hoppes]

I don't think it is ever safe to teach false doctrine.

Teaching false doctrine IS leading people astray. Including WOF teaching. "Name it claim it" and if it doesn't happen, your faith is not strong enough, you don't believe.

If you don't understand, you shouldn't be teaching.

[daveleau]

Originally posted by Mrs. Hoppes
I don't think it is ever safe to teach false doctrine.

Teaching false doctrine IS leading people astray. Including WOF teaching. "Name it claim it" and if it doesn't happen, your faith is not strong enough, you don't believe.

If you don't understand, you shouldn't be teaching.

Very well said. You can't believe NIACI (name it and claim it) and the Bible's verses on God's Will in our lives. Any amount of diversion from Scripture is leading people astray and I would not recommend doing so.

[blitzkreig]

OK not to be provocative here... but Paul was not exactly into accurate doctrine upon his conversion was he? What has the the preacher got to do with it? Yes I do think it is important... and they are "working the wrong team" but an interesting question isn't it? Is it possible for someone to find Salvation... in spite of the message?

[Mrs. Hoppes]

Originally posted by blitzkreig
Is it possible for someone to find Salvation... in spite of the message?

How can a person truely find salvation if they are not being shown what salvation is?

As for Paul, he was visited by Christ personally. Can't get much closer to the doctrine than that.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by Mrs. Hoppes
How can a person truely find salvation if they are not being shown what salvation is?

Boy, you hit on something w/that statement! I question some ministries that claim thousands are coming to Christ every day in America. Where are these people? And exactly what are they "coming" to? I meet new Christians quite often who really dont have a grip on what salvation really is. Of course, it's a learning curve to some extent... but what I'm trying to say is that until we have a true clear picture of our own depravity and sinfulness... we cant appreciate and understand what was done for us on the cross. Today many preachers and teachers are too busy trying to make people feel good about themselves... but if you study the biographies of men like Charles Finney, and see how they led people to the Lord you would notice a stark difference between then and now. People who came to see Finney were sent away to examine themselves and come to grips with how miserable they were... BEFORE he would lead them to Christ. They would come forward for salvation, and he would send them away for at least a day... just to make sure they were serious. Now-a-days we see a lot of "come to Jesus... He has a wonderful plan for your life!" instead of " Come to Jesus because your a lost miserable wretch headed for hell".... which is the truth. Yes, Jesus has a plan for your life... but that is not why we need to be saved. Now you can just pray a quick prayer at a concert... fill out a card... and boom, you're saved. Hardly ever is there any follow-up, and rarely does an individual truly understand what they are doing.

I call this: "drive-thru" salvations. Here's Jesus, your new NIV New Testament... oh... and would you like fries with your salvation?

That is false teaching at it's worst, IMHO.

[Jael]

I agree with glory...there are core doctrines that cannot be compromised without really perverting the gospel message and endangering souls. No amount of false doctrine is acceptable when it comes to the fundamentals of the faith...then there are more debatable, less clear-cut truths that honest, devout, Bible-believing ministers may disagree about. Eschatology is a perfect example...while I am firmly convinced that the pre-trib rapture scenario is correct, I would never claim that anyone who studies the scriptures and comes to believe in a post-trib scenario is a false preacher bound for hell...There are Christians who love the Lord on both sides of the debate (even on this board), and not all of us can be correct. So we have to evaluate a minister based on his overall teaching and whether his teaching lines up with scripture on those doctrines that cannot be compromised. If he seems to be mistaken on some points, are those mistakes likely to cause spiritual harm to those he is teaching? And we each have to seek the Lord to know exactly where that line is drawn. All the more reason why we REALLY need to study the word for ourselves and not blindly accept what ANYONE teaches.

[Mrs. Hoppes]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Now you can just pray a quick prayer at a concert... fill out a card... and boom, you're saved. Hardly ever is there any follow-up, and rarely does an individual truly understand what they are doing.

I call this: "drive-thru" salvations. Here's Jesus, your new NIV New Testament... oh... and would you like fries with your salvation?

That is false teaching at it's worst, IMHO.

I totally agree.

[Ponderin]

REALITY

While our entire world is sinking in the quagmire of human opinions, theories, philosphies, and dreams, our Lord invites us to stand firmly on the rock of reality. And what does the realistic mind-set include? Well, these are eternally etched in the granite of God's Book. They include such things as this:

* Man is a depraved sinner, terribly in need.

* Our hope is in Jesus Christ - His death and resurrection.

* Receiving Him brings instant forgiveness and eternal grace.

* Death is certain but not the end.

* Heaven is a real place

* So is Hell

* We cannot escape standing before Him.

* The time to prepare is NOW.

A Season of Reflection
~Charles Swindol

[matheteou]

Originally posted by Mrs. Hoppes
How can a person truely find salvation if they are not being shown what salvation is?

As for Paul, he was visited by Christ personally. Can't get much closer to the doctrine than that. It depends upon WHO is showing them what salvation is. If it's us they have no hope, but if it's the Holy Spirit ...

[blitzkreig]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mrs. Hoppes
How can a person truely find salvation if they are not being shown what salvation is?

As for Paul, he was visited by Christ personally. Can't get much closer to the doctrine than that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by matheteou
It depends upon WHO is showing them what salvation is. If it's us they have no hope, but if it's the Holy Spirit ... Exactly my point. (although I didn't state it very well before) I think it entirely possible that an isolated lone bushman without much for outside contact,... let alone a preacher,... but who has access to Scripture, may be much better off than someone under the "spell" of a cult, or a TV preacher with false doctrine.

Sometimes we forget that it is the Holy Spirit who does all of the "heavy lifting" with respect to convicting the heart and bringing about Salvation.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by blitzkreig
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mrs. Hoppes
How can a person truely find salvation if they are not being shown what salvation is?

As for Paul, he was visited by Christ personally. Can't get much closer to the doctrine than that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Exactly my point. (although I didn't state it very well before) I think it entirely possible that an isolated lone bushman without much for outside contact,... let alone a preacher,... but who has access to Scripture, may be much better off than someone under the "spell" of a cult, or a TV preacher with false doctrine.

Sometimes we forget that it is the Holy Spirit who does all of the "heavy lifting" with respect to convicting the heart and bringing about Salvation.

Doesnt the Bible even say somewhere that no one is without excuse because all they have to do is look at nature and see the Hand of God? I'm paraphrasing, of course... Anyone know where that is? Or am I thinking of something I read else where?

[matheteou]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Doesnt the Bible even say somewhere that no one is without excuse because all they have to do is look at nature and see the Hand of God? I'm paraphrasing, of course... Anyone know where that is? Or am I thinking of something I read else where? Ps 19 and Rom 1 come to mind.

[Ponderin]

Psalm 19


For the director of music. A psalm of David.

1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they display knowledge.
3 There is no speech or language
where their voice is not heard.
4 Their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.



Romans 1
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

[KrispyKritter]

Ah!! Thank you thank you thank you!!

[jenniofYahushua]

what a great thread! of course for the fullest answer to all this we would just have to leave it to the Lord cause some false doctorines are so very wrong, but not directly about salvation issues.

where i DO think it effects salvation ( either their own, others, or both) is these who teach that it isnt the blood that we are bought in but that it was satan torturing Yahushua to pay for us back that saves us! i think that is honestly the worst i have ever ever ever heard and it is growing in popularity. i do not see any possible way that this can be past over.

i think that teaching men that they can do whatever they want is another one of these false doctorines that leads to effecting salvation.

it is interesting the post a few above me that talked about those who say they save thousands a day in america and where are these people? what i have noticed is alot of these preachers who say this arent even preaching the full gospel! many will say and only say ' accept jesus into your heart". well i am sorry but there is not one scripture that says that. we are told to preach Messiah and Him crucified, that we are saved by grace through faith, that we are to beleive REPENT( WHICH IS WHAT MOST ARENT EVEN MENTIONING) confess and be baptised.
i think the reason we cant find all these thousands of converted daily people is that they arent at all converted ( or most of them). i think alot of these people pray the prayer " jesus come into my heart" not because they beleive at all or because they are willing to repent etc but because they are told just to pray it and then go about things as normal. :doh

the Lord will judge the end of false preachers but for my life i watch a preacher, if that preacher says a whole bunch of wrong things that i can easily pick out i dont watch or listen to them anymore, if they are not living holy lives and submitting to the word i dont listen to them anymore. I have sat down and turned on ones like creflo dollar and kenneth copeland and literally LITERALLY found multiple false doctorines in 60 seconds so bad that i had to turn it! so i just say :spit to that stuff

[David Mark]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Today many preachers and teachers are too busy trying to make people feel good about themselves... .

I started reading your reply, then I looked to see who wrote it and it was Krispy Kritter. Your posts always catch my eye. You definitely stand out among the crowd Krispy.

It's worth mentioning.

Dave.

[KrispyKritter]

Look! I'm blushing! :oh

[cameron222]

I believe "ignorance" in the congregation is also a problem.

By that, I mean that many people never read the Bible and just accept as true any statement made by a "preacher." We should check out the preacher's statements by the Word of God and see if they match. If not.......red flag!!!

We must also check out the "context" of verses being used to promote a questionable doctrine. One verse does not always mean what people think it does when your read the ones amplifying it.

Also pray for and be open to discernment. The Holy Spirit can prompt you as to what is truth and what is error.

[Lonewolf7]

Originally posted by cameron222
I believe "ignorance" in the congregation is also a problem.

By that, I mean that many people never read the Bible and just accept as true any statement made by a "preacher." We should check out the preacher's statements by the Word of God and see if they match. If not.......red flag!!!

Also pray for and be open to discernment. The Holy Spirit can prompt you as to what is truth and what is error.

:thumb :thumb :nod

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth……

Acts 17:11
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true



:nod

[Enlightened]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lonewolf7


John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth……

Acts 17:11
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true

I think you have a very good point here, but I'de like to take it a bit further.

(Praying everyone will read everything I wrote before commenting)

Now TV preachers/teachers all have a few things in common.

1. They (well most of them) have only a 30 minute slot to get everything said.....and......2. If they are not independently wealthy they will need to either ask for donations or sell some product to pay for their air time (it isn't cheap).

...now...

When - "(fill in the name here)" says something that "you/me/we" believe to be in error, should we not look it up in the Bible to make sure we are correct. Then I suggest we could do the following.

1. Contact "(fill in the name here)" and point out his/her err, using the Bible as your source.

2. When talking with others (family, friend, coworkers etc). Ask if anyone watched "fill in the name"'s TV show. If they say yes or ask why, then here is where we can do some real good.

3. DO NOT start out by saying how wrong "fill in the name" was....do it in a constructive way by say something like.... "Well you know he/she was taking about, (fill in the subject), (DO NOT repeat what he/she said) and you know I looked it up in the Bible and you know it says...(quote exact verse here).

4. Now this will be the hard part for most of us....WAIT for the other person or person's to comment. Wait for the door to open and discuss with them what the Word of God says. Only repeat what the "... person" said...IF...IF they ask. If we repeat error then we are saying something that they don't need to hear.

5. When the time comes...simply say I believe based on the Word of God that this "person" is in error and I have made attempts to notify them of the error and prayed for them.

6. AFTER all this .....now would be the time to warn anyone who listens to this person, or any other person to always look things up in the Bible and pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit before accepting it as truth.


It is my belief that each and every Christian who hears or reads the word of another Christian and they do not line up with the word of God (Bible)...then we can either do our best to correct the error in a Christian way ....or make things worse by just telling everyone how bad this person is because we just think they are.

OK I was not pointing my finger an anyone here on this thread. Just adding MHO.

God bless each and everyone of you.
Enlightened and still learning