Could some one please clarify WOF

[BlackMoon]

I have been on this BB for about a month. I am wondering what is so wrong about Joyce Myers and Jeol Osteen.

I use both of these ministries to enhance my spiritual life. (I.E. I will occasionally watch Joel and I once in a while I might read a little Meyers) Please understand that I am really seeking an answer and am not meaning to pick a fight.

While I am at it, I will say that I have problems with 99% of the "Christian" stuff that you see on TV. Benny Hinn is nothing more than a modern day snake-oil salesman. Rod Parsly is so stuck on him self that he would probaly miss Jesus even if he was in the front row of his church.

two more questions:

1. why do you suppose that veggie tales stays out of the NT?

2. why do people here say G-D, instead of God?



Just some thoughts...

BlackMoon.... now a follower of the SON!:angel

[MercifullySaved]

I think that your question regarding Joyce Meyer can be summed up with this statement she made...
"If you stay in your faith, you are going to get paid,'' Meyer told an audience in Detroit in September. "I'm living now in my reward.''

I'm sure you can see the problem with that. Check out the other Joyce Meyer thread in this forum for more details on why she is not a woman of God.

[BlackMoon]

I can see where she is off there.


We all will inherit eternal life, and Jesus never promises any thing about our Earthly lives.

[MercifullySaved]

Joyce is also notorious for teaching false doctrine. For example,
“There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth I am presenting. You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell”

Joyce Meyer (“What Happened from the Cross to The Throne?” audio)

Of course, nowhere in Scripture is it stated that Jesus went to Hell.
“The Bible can’t even find any way to explain this. Not really. That’s why you’ve got to get it by revelation. There are no words to explain what I’m telling you. I’ve got to just trust God that He’s putting it into your spirit like He put it into mine.”

Joyce Meyer (“What Happened from the Cross to The Throne?” audio)

Here, she's basically saying that her word is above and beyond Scripture. This quote alone leads me to believe that her ministry is actually demonic/satanic in nature, because none of us are as above reproach as she's claiming to be here.
“I’m going to tell you something folks, I didn’t stop sinning until I finally got it through my thick head I wasn’t a sinner anymore. And the religious world thinks that’s heresy and they want to hang you for it. But the Bible says that I’m righteous and I can’t be righteous and be a sinner at the same time ... All I was ever taught to say was, ‘I’m a poor, miserable sinner.’ I am not poor, I am not miserable and I am not a sinner. That is a lie from the pit of hell. That is what I was and if I still am then Jesus died in vain. Amen?”

Joyce Meyer (“What Happened from the Cross to The Throne?” audio)
No longer a sinner? Puh-leeze. Again, this is not just a woman who is naive about what she's trying to talk about. This is literally a Satanic doctrine being presented as the word of God.

[jenniofYahushua]

Hello! i hope u r blessed in the Lord.

well last two questions first 1) i dunno why veggie tales stays out of the bible i dont let my kid watch it and 2) jewish beleivers type G-D because they beleive it to be a form of respect and some other beleivers do it also for the same reason.

ok what is wrong with joyce meyers? well 1) she is a woman usurping authoirty and teaching over men, against the teachings of the bible 2) she does not even follow the description of a godly woman inthe bible and she constantly " preaches" about her clothes hair makeup jewelry panty hose etc... instead of not adorning herself she adorns and preaches about it. 3 and the worst of all) she teaches that we are paied for by the torture jesus allowed satan to give him in hell for 3 days to pay for us, and not by his shed blood 4) she is out for $$$$$ constantly preaching give me money, give a million and i will be blessed etc.. 5) preaching the reason to give money is to recieve blessings instead of giving out of love from your heart. 6) saying you should beleive HER revelation and HER words even when the bible says nothing about what she is saying. and 7 repeated because it realllllllly DOES matter) she is a woman who is heading a congregation,usurping authoity and teaching over men.


i am sure there is much more but since the Lord has commanded me not to watch or listen to her ever again this is all i can speak to.:tape

[zion]

WOF = Also known as "Name-it-Claim-it," "Health and Wealth Gospel," "Positive Confession," "Gimme, Gimme" "More Money Please" etc.

[Mindenite]

No longer a sinner? Puh-leeze. Again, this is not just a woman who is naive about what she's trying to talk about. This is literally a Satanic doctrine being presented as the word of God.
For one thing, this belief, though she may distort it to fit her movement I am not sure, is not WOF. Also, it is certainly not Satanic.

[Ynott]

What is "satanic"? Good question.

I would hazard a guess that anything in direct contradiction to the words of God, should in all probability be labelled "satanic", but what do I know? I've never studied satanism.

How would others here define "satanic"?

“I’m going to tell you something folks, I didn’t stop sinning until I finally got it through my thick head I wasn’t a sinner anymore. And the religious world thinks that’s heresy and they want to hang you for it. But the Bible says that I’m righteous and I can’t be righteous and be a sinner at the same time ... All I was ever taught to say was, ‘I’m a poor, miserable sinner.’ I am not poor, I am not miserable and I am not a sinner. That is a lie from the pit of hell. That is what I was and if I still am then Jesus died in vain. Amen?”

Joyce Meyer (“What Happened from the Cross to The Throne?” audio)

She hasn't stopped sinning yet, but from her quoted words above, one would think so.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.

16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.

17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.

20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

(Romans 7:14-20)

I dunno.....I suspect that Paul was not just preaching about himself with these words in which he says that he still sins, because he remains in the flesh....That as hard as he tries, he knows that he still sins and is grieved because of it....Is Joyce then capable of that which none of the prophets were?


In this and other words then, she is speaking contrary to the very words of God (through His messenger Paul in this letter to the Romans). How then would you characterize her words?

When a person knowingly speaks an untruth or a perversion of the truth, we call it a lie (sin).

But when the truth so besmirched deals with the affairs of God and his message to us, how do we characterize it? It's source would be "who"?

Who would wish to turn us from God with such a perversion?

I dunno. It sounds somewhat satanic to me.

[Christine]

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

The problem with this WoF concept of being "sinfree" is that it replaces repentance with the Gospel of Self Esteem.

Rather than teach people that we sin and need to be seeking the Lord's forgiveness for that sin, they teach that we are not responsible for sin -- that we should "blame it on the devil" and we can be "healed" by positive thinking.

:sigh

[Patty T]

Originally posted by MercifullySaved
Joyce is also notorious for teaching false doctrine. For example,


Of course, nowhere in Scripture is it stated that Jesus went to Hell.


Here, she's basically saying that her word is above and beyond Scripture. This quote alone leads me to believe that her ministry is actually demonic/satanic in nature, because none of us are as above reproach as she's claiming to be here.

No longer a sinner? Puh-leeze. Again, this is not just a woman who is naive about what she's trying to talk about. This is literally a Satanic doctrine being presented as the word of God.

Hi MercifullySaved!

Actually, Jesus did go down to hell...

Psalm 16:10...For You will not leave My soul in Sheol, nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:30...Therefore, being a prophet (David) and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,

31...he, forseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.

As for Joyce's ministry being demonic in nature; I would be very careful about your words. That is a very, very serious accusation and an untrue one, IMO. Joyce preaches Jesus Christ as the Son of the Living God, Who was crucified, died and buried, and then rose again on the third day - He is the ONLY way to the Father. You may not like or agree with her lifestyle, or some of her teachings, but please chose your words carefully about her ministry.

I believe when she says she is no longer a sinner, she means that because she is saved by the blood of the Lamb, she is no longer lost - every born-again believer in Jesus will sin until they're in glory with him because of our nature - but, the longer we walk with Him, however, the less we do sin. We should be seeing victory in areas over time.

A very good read in scripture about our tongue is James 3.

God Bless,

Patty
:):

[Christine]

Patty,

Here is the problem -- Jesus went to hades as a victor -- to redeem the Old Testament saints. Joyce & Co. teach that he had to fight satan for our redemption -- that redemption was not accomplished on the cross ("It is finished") but that it was accomplished ONLY when Jesus "won" it from satan.

From Dave Hunt:

It is both fanciful nonsense and heresy to teach that our redemption comes through Satan torturing Jesus in hell. That would make Satan our co-redeemer. If he didn't torture Jesus enough we wouldn't be saved-and if he did, do we thank him? Blasphemy! Satan isn't the proprietor of hell. He hasn't even been there yet. Nor will Satan torture the damned but will himself be tortured with "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Mt 25:41) when death and hell have been "cast into the Lake of Fire" (Rv 20:14).

Before He died, Jesus cried in triumph, "It is finished" (Jn 19:30), indicating that our redemption had been accomplished on the Cross. Christ told the thief on the cross who believed in Him, "Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise" (Lk 23:43), not in hell! He said, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit" (Lk 23:46). Yet Hagin, Copeland, et al. say He ended up, instead, in the hands of Satan in the depths of hell!Full article at:

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?postid=1101316#post1101316

[Patty T]

Originally posted by Christine
Patty,

Here is the problem -- Jesus went to hades as a victor -- to redeem the Old Testament saints. Joyce & Co. teach that he had to fight satan for our redemption -- that redemption was not accomplished on the cross ("It is finished") but that it was accomplished ONLY when Jesus "won" it from satan.

From Dave Hunt:

Full article at:

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?postid=1101316#post1101316

Hi Christine,

Well, when I first re-committed my life to Jesus in 2000, I listened to Joyce Meyers for almost 2 years - not every broadcast mind you, but very frequently. In that time, I never heard her teach what you have posted above; Jesus fighting satan for our redemption, that it was not accomplished on the cross.

I just want brothers and sisters to be careful about the words they chose. Calling her ministry demonic does not sound wise to me. Probably the mercy gift God gave me coming out. I'm not good at confrontation and don't like to see anyone in trouble.


Patty
:):

[forawhile]

I agree with Patty T on this topic.

Matthew 7
2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

[Mindenite]

Rather than teach people that we sin and need to be seeking the Lord's forgiveness for that sin, they teach that we are not responsible for sin -- that we should "blame it on the devil" and we can be "healed" by positive thinking.
Oh now that is entirely wrong. However, many who have the "sin everday" menatlity could be accused of not believing they have any responsibility for sin. And many of those who believe in sinlessness (not to be confused with perfectionism) do not believe in taking anything away from redemption and replacing it with devil blaming or positive thinking.

Edit: As for Ynott's question of what is Satanic, do not mistake what I meant in my post. I am not trying to nor would I be capable of defending this woman since I know next to nothing about her. With that out of the way, the belief of sinlessness can be in accordance with the Word of God if God's grace, mercy, and such other concepts are not taken away, and this is very possible.

[glorymj]

Originally posted by forawhile
Matthew 7
2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. [/B] I hate it when people take this verse and use it to mean we shouldn't judge the people who supposed to be leaders. Of course we are to judge leaders AND to mark and AVOID those leaders who are teaching heresy.

[Ynott]

A statement can be satanic without the person being satanic. Take Peter for instance, he spoke unwisely and Jesus rebuked him. Peter thought to "save" Jesus, but Jesus knew his words (though sounding good) were of the devil.

Christ's response was, "Get thee behind me Satan". But he was directing the answer to Peter.

I do not mean to imply that this woman herself is satanic, but some of her words/messages certainly are not Godlike (as they run contrary to scripture).

With regard to the gentle poster who does not like anyone judging. I need to make clear that we ARE to judge the brethren. That too is biblical. This really bothers many believers. I don't know why. Paul spent the better part of his ministry correcting the young churches. Read his letters to the Corinthians (and the others too)!

We must be careful that our words are truly biblical correction and not emotional judgment here. If we do not correct them, then the heresy within the church grows through "acceptance" of false teaching. This is HIGHLY unscriptural.

I realize that this offends many believers, but if they will read all of the relevant scripture, they too will come to the same conclusion. It is impossible to do otherwise.

Not judging is also judging.... To see an error being promulgated within the church IN THE LORD'S NAME and to ignore it out of a misbegotten understanding of one verse is the same thing as preaching that error-ridden message yourself.

If what you hear a brother say is against the word of God, you need to tell them lovingly of the error...otherwise, you WILL be held accountable, for that too is biblical.

Stand on the word. Be berean.

[jenniofYahushua]

well amein to glory and ynott

this judgeing thing is something that is very important to understand rightly in the word and walk by.often brethern repeat the judge not lest u be judged but the whole scripture in context is telling us not to be hypocrites. in other words dont judge another for what YOU are also doing and dont think you will help a brother to stop sinning while there is still a plank in your own eye. and the Lord tells us GET THE PLANK OUT OF YOUR OWN EYE THEN HELP YOUR BROTHER GET THE SPLINTER OUT OF HIS. Many today have the attitude that no one can ever get the plank out of there own eye so no one can ever help there brother get the splinter out of theirs but this simply is not true. While we all mess up and we are all still moving towards perfection but have no yet achieved it, those brethern who obey the Lord in Love and do not willfully sin, do not take part in rebellion, and have overcome the " said sin" have by the power of the Lord taken the plank out of their own eye.Sometimes this is the way we can provide the most help to our brethern. If a person was once a fornicator and has got that plank out of their own eye, how much better do they understand what that is like and what overcomming it in the Lord is like! How much better they can judge that sin and help the brother to overcome it. the point is dont be a fornicator then judge your brother for being a fornicator. 1 cor has some really good edification on how and who to judge, paul tells us we are NOT to judge those outside the body ( unbeleivers) but we are to judge the brethern, He even says to the corinthians " is there no one amoung you able to judge?" we are told we will judge the angels so how much more should we be able to judge the things here. If we do not judge then we end up with nothing but leaven ( sin) through the whole body. the bible gives very clear instructions on how to correct brethern who are in sins and what to do if they wont repent, even to cutting them off from the body and not even eating with them! When this happens it is very very sad and grieves the Spirit and the whole body mourns but still, at times it needs to be done and it takes rightous judgement to do this. I think that using the " judge not" verse out of context may have first and mainly come from unbeleivers who shout it whenever you stand for the truth that they are in sin and need a savior, but sadly it seems somewhere along the line the brethern have picked it up and kept it rolling.

[MercifullySaved]

Originally posted by Mindenite
For one thing, this belief, though she may distort it to fit her movement I am not sure, is not WOF. Also, it is certainly not Satanic.

You are badly mistaken, Mindenite. The origin of sin is Lucifer himself, and it is entirely his intention to make us believe that we are free of sin, because if we believe that we are free of sin, then we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Tell me...if the truth is not in us, then what is? You guessed it, I'm sure. And that is exactly what makes the "sin free" movement Satanic in nature and origin.
Please read this article http://www.scionofzion.com/sin.htm

[MercifullySaved]

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines [taught by] demons... (1 Tim 4:1 NKJ)

David Guzik Study Guide
for 1 Timothy Chapter 4

1 Timothy 4 - Being God's Man

A. False doctrine in the end times

1. (1) A warning from the Holy Spirit

a. Paul knew that a proliferation of apostasy, deception and false teaching would mark the last days; he saw its increase in Ephesus and wondered if it didn't mean that the time was short

i. Was Paul wrong, being at least some 1900 years off the mark? No; history is not, and has not been rushing towards a distant brink that would end this current order; even in apostolic times, history had reached that brink - and has run parallell to it since

b. What did Paul have in mind regarding the doctrines of demons? There seem to be legalistic connections from the context; but at root seems to be a teaching that "you are or can be gods" and that we can justify ourselves before God.

c. It's hard to say if there is more false teaching today, or if it is merely a case of modern technology being able to spread the lie better; but it's certainly true today: a lie travels express, the truth goes on foot

[Mindenite]

From the Doctrine of Sin sermon posted by MercifullySaved
No matter how hard we try, we will never become sinless. The key word is not to try but to identify sin for what it is.
This is the only area where this preacher rejects sinlessness. The rest of his sermon actually seems to support the idea. But that is not the point. The point is, this sermon pokes no holes in what I said. It does not attack sinlessness directly nor does it give any Scripture against it. Generally though, the belief of sinlessness stems off of a non belief in sins of omission--believing that sin IS intent and therefore must be an intention action (or thought).

[Ynott]

I am somewhat confused by your statements mindenite.

Perhaps you could clarify your position by answering a question or two for me?

1. Do you believe that you no longer sin?

2. Do you believe that it is possible to no longer sin?

3. If either of the above statements is true, how do you view a believer who does sin?

4. What is your response to Paul in my posted scripture (Romans 7:14-20)?

[Mindenite]

I will answer some of your questions Ynott.

1) I would rather keep me out of this as opposed to my beliefs

2) Yes, I do think that it is possible to no longer sin but there is still a huge difference between sinlessness and perfection. Mistakes as a person can be made without them necessarily being sin as a Christian, if that makes sense.

3) One of two things are possibly true then about believers who do sin. One is that they have a misconception of what sin is. They may, for example, think stepping on a bug is a sin (to push it to the extreme) when in fact it is not. Or two, they do sin but are on still on the path of God that may lead them to a sinless or less sinful life.

4) My response to Paul is generally John (Gospel of John and 1 John). Jesus Himself says go and sin no more in John, and in 1 John it says anyone born of God will not continue to sin. There seem to be both stories told in the Bible--everyone sins but do not sin. One has to reconcile it one way or another. I reconcile it in the way that most Christians, I believe, probably don't. I believe that we all have sinned, yes, but that can all change for all things are possible with God.

[Ynott]

Thank you for responding to my questions, mindenite. I now know where you stand.

1. I appreciate your answer here, which is why of course, I rephrased it in number two.

2. Paul would disagree with you on this answer and in fact did so in Romans 7:14-20. I can not be more clear than he was.

3. I do not believe that I have a misconception of sin. I still have sinful thoughts (though I try not to). I still use language that I know is sinful...said in anger. In fact, I still get angry upon occasion and this too is wrong. I speak for myself and not for others. I still sin and I am still cognizant of this fact, and I still grieve over it as well. I am in agreement with Paul here as I do not do that which I wish to do. The flesh is weak and sinful.

Perhaps you could define sin for me then? I believe that sin is turning from God and doing those things which God would not have me do. We are born into sin, through Adam and it is, unfortunately part of our nature since the Fall. That is why we all need Jesus.

4. There seem to be both stories told in the Bible--everyone sins but do not sin. One has to reconcile it one way or another. I reconcile it in the way that most Christians, I believe, probably don't. I believe that we all have sinned, yes, but that can all change for all things are possible with God.

Every moment of our life is a choice. Sometimes we choose badly and thoughtlessly. These can and usually do lead to sin. You must reconcile the Bible by believing ALL of it, not by circumventing part of it and redefining the rest of it.

It is either all true or none of it is true. It must hang together as a tapestry of truth, or it disintegrates into a cauldron of chaos.

All things are possible with God and one day we will all be "changed" to be like Him....but for now, we are human and sinful creations in need of the shed blood of Christ to cover our sins.

I am unsure how to impart to you how important it is to understand that we all still sin (though we wish that we would not). I appreciate that you took a personal risk in answering so genuinely. Thank you for your honesty.

[forawhile]

Thanks for clarifying the judgement issue.

I still feel that judging others for things we personally have not done will come back to us somehow. Maybe I'm wrong. Is there anything in scripture that states we are to judge our brethren and teach others to follow our judgements? (Please quote the verse(s))

[Ynott]

Yes forawhile, there is. I am so glad that you asked for that scripture.

Let us look then at 1 Corinthians Chapter 5:


1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles--that a man has his father's wife!

2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed.

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?

7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.

10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.

11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?

13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."

Here we see a badly fallen Corinthian church, rife with sin. Paul admonishes them to "put out anyone named a brother" who is sinning...not even to eat with them.

Further in the next verse (v.12), Paul tells us that he has nothing to do with those who are "outside" (meaning here, unbelievers). He asks/states that we judge those who are "inside" (believers). The two juxtaposed and following the previous statement emphasize the fact that we are to judge the brethren with regard to sin (not what we think, but what the Lord says).

[forawhile]

Thanks! :thumb

[Ynott]

I believe the defining bit about "judgment" here is that it is not OUR judgment (or how we feel about their action), it is what the LORD says about it that matters. We aren't supposed to "fix" our brother. We are supposed to "make him aware" of his sinful shortcomings (according to the Holy Word of God...scripture). Then again, the "ball is in his court" so to speak. Should he choose to continue in his sinful lifestyle, we are to "break company" with him and let the Lord work on him.

But should a brother remain and continue in his sinful pursuits, with tacit acceptance among the brethren, this will act like "leaven" and spoil the whole congregation. His sinful example (and our acceptance) would lead to more sin within and among the brethren. This is to be avoided, which is why a sinning brother is to be expelled until such time as he repents of his sin.

In fact, the only "judgment" that I can find is to remove the sinning brother from among the brethren.

Other supporting verses for this can be found in:

2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

2Th 3:15 Yet count [him] not as an enemy, but admonish [him] as a brother.

[tractsforchrist]

Jesus laid out you are supposed to judge them

Matthew 8?

You are to go to that person one on one. Tell them what is wrong. REQUIREMENTS<--You must be a strong believer and not new to the faith [this would disqualify me] and not have a PLANK in your eye

You are next supposed to go with 2-3 brothers who are holy spirit filled to talk with the brother

If that does not work, then he is supposed to be outside the congregation
:thumb

[Mindenite]

Perhaps you could define sin for me then? I believe that sin is turning from God and doing those things which God would not have me do. We are born into sin, through Adam and it is, unfortunately part of our nature since the Fall. That is why we all need Jesus.
I did not mean to imply that you personally have a bad definition of sin but there are some who believe even the smallest thing is a sin. For a friend of mine, my parents' buying me a birthday present was somehow a sin. I think that is a misconception of what sin is. But to find a good defintion of sin, we can look at Adam and Eve. Both of them sinned. One did it through deception and one did it with full knowledge (or that is how it is generally thought of). However, both sinned willingly. Willingly sin through ignorance? Well ignorance is never an excuse. No one can go around killing people and then plead ignorance.

All of this still leaves sin as an intentional action. Even the verses that Paul wrote refered to this. Now what I mean by intentional action is that one cannot accidentally sin barring ignorance that is not an excuse. Take another extreme example (a modified Jewish example actually). You got a guy who is doing roof work on an old house. This guy is going about his job when he steps on an aged, ruined part of the roof and falls through. He falls through over the bedroom and laids on the owner's money that she just took out of her purse, which then get into his pocket due to his hitting the bed in an odd manner. The man recovers and finishes the roofing job and goes home. He finds the money and has no idea where it came from (and let's say that the owner of the money never comes forward). Did this guy steal from the woman? Did he sin at all? Is it a sin only if he keeps the money and doesn't turn it into the police? What if the police are corrupt and would just keep the money for themselves and he knows this? If he donates the money to a charity, does that negate the fact that the money was not his in the first place?

My belief is that sin is intent. One cannot sin by accident because sin comes from the mind and the soul. If I decide to kill someone but cannot go through with the action due to my own bodily limitations, I still sinned I believe. But if I slipped on a banana peel, try to grab something to break my fall, pick up a sharp object, and stab someone on my way down, have I sinned? One could call it murder since it was not self-defense or defending my country but I didn't mean to grab the sharp object much less stab anyone with it. Does any of this make any sense?

[Ynott]

Do stray thoughts enter your head? Sinful thoughts? Even though you push them out, they have entered your mind and thought process. Intent? If I am honest, I know this happens and I occasionally dwell....even if for only a split second...upon that sinful thought. This is a sin...we can sin in thought, word or deed.

I have children and (need I say more?) I have grown angry with them over things they have or have not done. I have yelled at them in anger...thoughtlessly, and yet unable to stop myself. I have therefore sinned in "word".

You seem to be relegating all sin to a "deed" and (if I may say so), pretty bizarre situations at that.

I know that I sin. I try not to sin, but sometimes am unable to prevent myself as I am a sinful person. I am very grateful that the Lord is always there to cover me and pick me up when I stumble. Without His forgiveness and grace, I would be doomed to everlasting separation from Him in a lake of fire.

I never intend to stumble again, yet if I am honest with myself, I realize that I am not always in control of my environment and I know my "stumbling blocks". I will probably sin again. That is why it is called a "walk" and not an "arrival".

I am afraid that we must agree to disagree, mindenite.

But I do thank you for sharing your viewpoint and for your gracious honesty.

[Mindenite]

You seem to be relegating all sin to a "deed" and (if I may say so), pretty bizarre situations at that.
They were intentionally bizarre :): I was just trying to throw out extreme situations in which an action would be sinful but since the intent was not there, it is not sinful. Someone in this thread, perhaps it was you, said that all of life is a choice. I whole-heartedly agree with that so in all three cases, intent is still a factor. One could choose to not say harsh words and one could choose not to do bad actions.

Now the thought issue is a tough one. If we believe that Satan can introduce thoughts into our minds, then it would be, I believe, what we do with those thoughts, those temptations, that determines whether or not it is a sin. If he can't do that and it is our fallen, corrupted minds that brings the thoughts up, it becomes more difficult. If I think about punching someone while in Wal-mart, is that a sin? It may be if the wrong emotions are behind it. Personally, I know that I would never punch anyone (I have even avoided fights with my two brothers for years and years). Bu what if a thought jumps into my head one day? Automatic sin? I tend to believe that it is not but there is a very fine line. True hatred may never manifest itself physcially but emotionally it is still very wrong.

This is a tough issue and we will have to just leave it unsolved and go about believing our own ways it seems.

Oh and I forgot to reply to another part of your earlier post. I said that the Bible seems to say both sides of the story. I did not mean that it does state both sides and thus we can draw our own conclusions and that both are right. I believe that I am right and you believe that you are right, I am sure. In believing that I am right, I do not exclude parts of the Bible. It just comes down to reading it a different way. For me, the Bible is 100% true just as it is for you. I read verses throughout that I believe back up my point so then when I encounter another passage that upon first glance seems to contridict it, I do some research and some thinking about it and rectify any contridiction, as I am sure you do as well. I did not mean to imply that I "black out" certain part os the Bible, so to speak.