Church Growth Information links

[LLee]

I made a new page for the Church Growth Information links:

http://www.geocities.com/christianconcerns/index.cgmlinks.htm


This isn't connected with my "Questioning Amillennialism" site at all. I kept having occasions where I wanted to share information with my fellow Lutherans without necessarily opening the "end times" bag of worms.

Please let me know if you run across some really good articles so that I can add them.

[Rebecki]

Thanks LLee. I checked out some of those links. The one that John MacArthur wrote is very good! It's full of information but yet it's short and sweet.

:thumb

[BusyMom]

Bumping for yankeedownsouth!

[The Bearen]

Hi LLee

I have read your previous post regarding this subject; The chruch growth movement' and have enjoyed them .

Thank you for all your research and exposing the dangers of the growing trend of whats happening in our churches.

:thumb

[tractsforchrist]

I have a problem with one of the articles...... I never knew that Rick Warren's books were into church building, but I have issues with the article saying these things are wrong ..


dress must be casual
Sure I get dressed up a little but I don't wear a dress. I often wear jeans to churches. This is kind of an issue that is really not an issue to being a church.

music must be contemporary
My church uses contemporary music and there is nothing wrong with it. I don't see why this is a problem

message must be positive
This I agree with as wrong, my pastor tries to give us a little meat with our milk (though he is on a psalms kick )

The ministry must be aimed at other ministries
Again I see nothing wrong with this. There are accountability groups and everything at our church. They help us lead holy lives.

Some Christians feel that any method of worship and evangelism is appropriate as long as the lost are being reached for Christ. Thus, they have accepted a pragmatic view of worship and evangelism -- the end justifies the means; if it works, it must be right. But believers and pastors alike must ask, "Is the proper way in which God's people approach unto their Lord in corporate worship relative?"
Again what is so wrong with contemporary music that is godly?!?

This statement is an example of one of Warren's straw men, for the use of eighteenth-century hymns is not the issue. The question at hand is whether music intended to appeal to the flesh should be used in the church. Much fine and worshipful music penned in this present century is being used in Bible-believing churches today. Style is the issue here, not the century in which the songs were written. The words or message are not what get the place "rocking" on Saturday evening or Sunday morning; it is the arrangement and the orchestration.

[LSF]

Lee,

I am glad to see you disconnected these links from your eschatology, especially since I wholeheartedly agree agree with you on the church growth movement, but I am not a fan of your eschatology (nobody's pefrect).:D:

By the way, I have a couple more links for you, but these deal with the whole purpose driven® mess.

Purpose Driven Church: A Critique (http://reformationtoday.tripod.com/oldrtpage/id52.html)

A Critique of "The Purpose Driven Life" (http://www.consensuslutheran.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=323&mode=nested&order=0)

As always, I will keep my eyes out for any other material that might pop up.

Dan

PS-- I hope your husband is doing much better. I've been praying for your family since he had his heart problems and surgery.

[LLee]

Hi, Dan!

Thank you for the articles. I will add them to my Lutheran section. I have a request - help me think through something from a Lutheran viewpoint?

What do you say to a pastor who is into the CGM, but who ways, "We will never downplay the sacraments. We will never lose our Law & Gospel message."

Or, in the case of the 2nd article, "I know what's wrong with Rick Warren's theology, so I am able to do this right."

I know that the purpose of both articles was strictly a critique of Rick Warren's books & theology - and not a commentary on the whole movement. I did the same thing when I wrote my article on the Purpose Driven Life. There are Lutheran churches studying both books, so articles specifically on the books are good, but I can't help feeling that we are still missing the boat. (Those of us in the Lutheran church who are against this whole thing)

I'm convinced that the root of the problem is not just the "reformed" theology.

I started to write out a whole thing here but decided to just PM you with the details instead. So, PM coming!

[The Bearen]

Hi Dan

I can see your point.

for example I went to a Calvery church in london and they use contempary music in their worship and its great.

they also preach clearly from the Word and you get some good meat.

But I can also see the danger in completly disgarding the classic hymns and sometimes the music can be so heavy rock that you can't hear the words, there are some worship bands I know who get too carried away with guitar solo's like its a performance and this is where we need to be careful.

[LSF]

Originally posted by The Bearen
Hi Dan

I can see your point.

for example I went to a Calvery church in london and they use contempary music in their worship and its great.

they also preach clearly from the Word and you get some good meat.

But I can also see the danger in completly disgarding the classic hymns and sometimes the music can be so heavy rock that you can't hear the words, there are some worship bands I know who get too carried away with guitar solo's like its a performance and this is where we need to be careful.
I am not sure you do understand.

I believe when I worship it is not just me and God, but my voice joins all Christians both on earth and in heaven in a glorious response to what God has given us all. When I used the term "communion of the saints," that is what, in essence, I mean. The church is no place for individuals, and people seem to think worship is a very personal experience. Paul calls the church the body of Christ, and we are all interconnected inexplicably to one another, and that connection doesn't suddenly end when we sit in the pew. This goes against every grain of rugged individualism implanted in us because of the country of our birth. It is our cross to bear and a struggle to realize we are not alone in our praises.

[antsinmypants]

:bump

[LLee]

I am so sad today that I can hardly stand it. Yesterday, I heard some pretty discouraging things when I went to a meeting at the head offices of my Lutheran synod. We just have a small synod, historically very conservative.

The meeting was not about church growth, but it came up anyway. These are their words about the changes happening within our synod, "It's a speeding freight train that cannot be stopped. Even the conservatives are on board now."

This was said as though it was a good thing. I just casually asked, "What do you know about the church growth movement?"

The answer - "Oh, I know all about that. This has nothing to do with that."

Then, he proceeded to tell me what it WAS all about - and it was all church growth, whether he thought so or not.

I know of ONE pastor in my area who both knows all about this and stands against it. Or did. Now? His plan is just to keep quiet, keep it out of his own church and hope he makes it to retirement without being pressured into it or pressured out.
:cry

[Rebecki]

His plan is just to keep quiet, keep it out of his own church and hope he makes it to retirement without being pressured into it or pressured out.

This is pure selfishness on his part. If he KNOWS what this is all about then it is his obligation as a pastor to speak out against it.

::: sigh ::: So many pastors are afraid of their congregation. Too afraid to stand up for righteousness and true biblical teaching. It's called COMPROMISE.

I'm so sorry that things are going so badly there. I guess it's all part of God's greater plan for the end of days.

Just know that you are not alone. http://www.1scom.net/~lilbratt/Smilies/love6.gif