who is the morning star?

[KrispyKritter]

According to scripture... who is the morning star?

[Patty T]

morning Krispy :):

Well, in Revelation 2:28, Jesus says to the church in Thyatira that He will give him who overcomes the "morning star".


Then in Revelation 22:16, Jesus says He is the "Bright and Morning Star".


Are we talking about two different things here?


Patty

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by Patty T
morning Krispy :):

Well, in Revelation 2:28, Jesus says to the church in Thyatira that He will give him who overcomes the "morning star".


Then in Revelation 22:16, Jesus says He is the "Bright and Morning Star".


Are we talking about two different things here?


Patty

Thats interesting... which version are you reading Rev 2:28 from?

And just for kicks, check out the NIV's rendition of Isaiah 14:12.

[Jael]

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

NIV
Isaiah 14
12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

KJV
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

It seems that the NIV is translating the word Lucifer, rather than using it as a proper name...when I look up Lucifer in Strong's, it gives the following definition:

Lucifer = "light-bearer"

1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer

a) of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)

2) (TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon

[KrispyKritter]

So is the Jesus the morning star, or is Lucifer?

[Jael]

Lucifer was his name when he was unfallen, right? Maybe that name reflects his role in heaven before he rose up against God...he's a created being, so he could never usurp Jesus' place as the morning star, but maybe he reflected Jesus' glory in some way...like we do, maybe. Jesus said the He is the light of the world, and He also told us that we are the light of the world...

Jhn 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world...

Mat 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Which is true? They both are...But our light doesn't originate with us, it is just a poor reflection of Him, who is the source of light. Maybe in his original beautiful state, Lucifer reflected the glory of the true Morning Star and was named accordingly?

He is described as having been very beautiful, originally:


Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Eze 28:14 Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Eze 28:15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

[Patty T]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Thats interesting... which version are you reading Rev 2:28 from?

And just for kicks, check out the NIV's rendition of Isaiah 14:12.

Reading from the NKJV -


OMG!!!! I just read the NIV of Isaiah 14:12...

How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!


Well we all know who that's referring to!!

[Patty T]

Another thougt..........scripture uses Capitalization for God/Jesus when "He" is used as opposed to "he".

In the NKJV of Rev 2:28, "morning star" is not capitalized, while Revelation 22:16 has "Morning Star" capitalized :confused

Important; significant?


Patty

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by Patty T
Another thougt..........scripture uses Capitalization for God/Jesus when "He" is used as opposed to "he".

In the NKJV of Rev 2:28, "morning star" is not capitalized, while Revelation 22:16 has "Morning Star" capitalized :confused

Important; significant?


Patty

Probably.

Other versions refer to Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12 as "shining star" (Green's Modern KJV). I think that is a better translation, as Green's KJV tends to be more literal.

It's interesting that the KJV doesnt mention the word star at all in that passage.

[Wileyzmuse]

In Isaiah 14:12, what does this part mean:

"...ye who once laid low the nations."

Did satan have authority over the earth before his fall?

[Patty T]

My understanding is that he gained authority and control over earth at the fall of Adam and Eve.

[Jael]

It's interesting that the KJV doesnt mention the word star at all in that passage.

Yeah, the KJV chose to look at "Lucifer" as a proper name, rather than a title, and I like that better. It's one thing to be named after the Morning Star and it's another to actually BE the Morning Star.

[Dan]

I've always thought that the 'morning star' referred to Lucifer as well.

However, there is another verse in 2 Peter (19?, 15? I don't recall at the moment), and if I'm reading it correctly, it reffers to David as the morning star also.
NASB version.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by Dan
I've always thought that the 'morning star' referred to Lucifer as well.

However, there is another verse in 2 Peter (19?, 15? I don't recall at the moment), and if I'm reading it correctly, it reffers to David as the morning star also.
NASB version.

Bibles based on the Textus Receptus (KJV...) refer to Lucifer as the "son of the morning".

[jenniofYahushua]

well my " opinion" of this is that morning star is a postion in heaven or the kingdom. that lucifer and Yahushua are and were morning stars as well as other angels and that those that overcome he gives the morning star also. what exactly that postion is i do not know. Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

[Joshua's Gen]

But you do realize that Y'shua isn't an angel, correct?

[jenniofYahushua]

yes and we arent angels either, but i beleive it is a postion in heaven or the kingdom that is held by angels ( and obviously not just angels)

[Dan]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Bibles based on the Textus Receptus (KJV...) refer to Lucifer as the "son of the morning". I'm missing your point. :):

[Jael]

Originally posted by jenniofYahushua
well my " opinion" of this is that morning star is a postion in heaven or the kingdom. that lucifer and Yahushua are and were morning stars as well as other angels and that those that overcome he gives the morning star also. what exactly that postion is i do not know. Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

That's pretty interesting Jennie..I think you are definitely onto something there.

[Don]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
According to scripture... who is the morning star?
I was under the impression that "Morning Star" was a kind of title for King of the Universe/Earth and that Satan used to be the Morning Star, but he screwed up and Christ will take his place.

[Dan]

Sorry everyone. I got scriptures mixed up.

While 2 Peter 1:19 mentions the morning star, it is a verse in Rev 22 that I was referring to.
But that verse has already been addressed.
The way it is worded in the NASB, it could be referring to David or Jesus.
Jesus makes more sense.

BTW, I agree with everyone who is saying Lucifer is/was the morning star.
I was just pointing to another verse that made reference of 'morning star'.

However, it's starting to sound like, 'morning star' was simply a descriptive term used in relation to both Jesus and Lucifer....which I find pretty interesting in itself.

[painkiller]

hmmmmmmmm, kind of makes you wonder about those "other" bible versions doesn't it ? ;):

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by Dan
I'm missing your point. :):

Point being... the TR (the Textus Receptus Greek that underlies the KJV) calls Lucifer the "son of the morning". It's only references to "the morning star" are of Christ. This speculation of it being an angelic position, or something that Lucifer was that Christ has now taken over is impossible because Lucifer and all angels were created. Jesus was not created. He created everything (John Chapter 1). So how could He possibly assume a position that Lucifer once held? That makes no sense, and equates Lucifer w/ Christ, in a sense. This is what the Mormons do... they go so far as to say Christ and Lucifer were brothers...

If this is true, then Lucifer has gained his greatest goal... to be like the Most High. Better check what Bible you're reading.

(I'm trying to make a point here w/this thread)

[Dan]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Point being... the TR (the Textus Receptus Greek that underlies the KJV) calls Lucifer the "son of the morning". It's only references to "the morning star" are of Christ. This speculation of it being an angelic position, or something that Lucifer was that Christ has now taken over is impossible because Lucifer and all angels were created. Jesus was not created. He created everything (John Chapter 1). So how could He possibly assume a position that Lucifer once held? That makes no sense, and equates Lucifer w/ Christ, in a sense. This is what the Mormons do... they go so far as to say Christ and Lucifer were brothers...

If this is true, then Lucifer has gained his greatest goal... to be like the Most High. Better check what Bible you're reading.

(I'm trying to make a point here w/this thread)
I was asking what your point was in reference to my reply.

But now that you brought it up, what is the point you're trying to make by starting this thread?

Is there an ulterior motive in your question?

Oh, and I think the NASB has proven itself very well over the years!

[Jael]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Point being... the TR (the Textus Receptus Greek that underlies the KJV) calls Lucifer the "son of the morning".

The KJV says Isaiah 14:12 ...O Lucifer, son of the morning!..., and the NIV says Isaiah 14:12 ...O morning star, son of the dawn!

If Lucifer really does translate to "morning star" as Strong's indicates, then this is not a very big difference. The NIV has simply translated "Lucifer" and used the translated meaning of "Lucifer" instead of the literal name "Lucifer". So "Lucifer, Son of the morning" became "morning star, son of the dawn". I am no lover of the NIV, it's not my favorite version, but unless they have mistranslated "Lucifer", the meaning seems the same...if they have mistranslated "Lucifer", than all bets are off.

It's only references to "the morning star" are of Christ. This speculation of it being an angelic position, or something that Lucifer was that Christ has now taken over is impossible because Lucifer and all angels were created. Jesus was not created. He created everything (John Chapter 1). So how could He possibly assume a position that Lucifer once held? That makes no sense, and equates Lucifer w/ Christ, in a sense. This is what the Mormons do... they go so far as to say Christ and Lucifer were brothers...

I agree with you about Jesus "assuming" a role formerly held by Lucifer, I don't accept that at all...but the scripture Jennie posted makes it clear that there is more than one morning star, which leads me to believe that we may not have understood all that is meant by that term.

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Who are the morning stars? I don't know, it's a mystery to me, but's there's more than one of them, and in this verse they are associated with the sons of God, which in the OT were angels...if Lucifer's name really means "morning star", then it makes sense that he was once one of them.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by Dan
I was asking what your point was in reference to my reply.

But now that you brought it up, what is the point you're trying to make by starting this thread?

Is there an ulterior motive in your question?

Oh, and I think the NASB has proven itself very well over the years!

At the risk of upsetting you... there really is no alterior motive... the point I'm trying to make is quite clear. While there is a healthy discussion going on while people try to work this "riddle" out... there is a lot of confusion coming into the discussion. Someone is trying to say that Lucifer and Jesus were basically the same (tho I dont believe they actually believe that... thats how it's coming across). Even tho, Dan, you and I disagree on the Bible version issues (which really isnt about versions, but greek text) you have to admit that the only version that is clear about the morning star, and makes it agree with Jesus statement that "I am the bright and Morning Star" ... is the Textus Receptus. The other versions confuse the issue, and at times even seem to equate Jesus and Lucifer. And Lucifers main goal was what? To be like God.

By the way... I'm in a learning process w/the version issues. And this morning star thing is something that I stumbled across all on my own. I haven't read it from any book, or heard about it... so I am open to being wrong... but so far, this thread has played out pretty much as I predicted it would.