Love vs. Lust?

[Jiggy37]

(Warning: If you're not ready to either provide real Biblical answers or just do some serious thinking and provide logical answers, you might (or might not) want to stay away. It's a long post with more questions than what I'm guessing most people would care to try to answer.
I mean, sure, you can always just skip to the bottom to get the basic questions, too, but reading through the entire thing will definitely help you understand what I'm getting at...)

Lately I've been struggling with the issue of love vs. lust, and exactly what sort of dreams and actions are allowed before marriage. I've actually been meaning to bring up the idea of love vs. lust ever since around a month after I first registered, but always put off making a post about it because I figured it didn't really matter that much--until now.
For the past few days, I've been really down because I think I've been living in lust for a long time now and never realized it. Jesus told us that whoever lusts after a woman has already committed adultery with her (Matthew 5:28 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT%2B5%3A28&showfn=on&showxref=on&language=english&version=KJV&x=10&y=14)), and I'm beginning to think I'm doing just that.
You see, I have this dream that goes like this (copied and pasted from the first time I mentioned it (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?postid=1321014#post1321014)):


Out in a big, open field of flowers, surrounded by mountains, looking for all the world like the opening of The Sound of Music (if The Sound of Music were touched up to modern-day video standards), I'd run hand-in-hand with my favorite girl.
Upon reaching the top of a hill overlooking the area, when we were both too tired to run any further, we'd both plop down and sit for a while just holding hands, looking at everything below us.
Soon enough, she'd rest her head on my shoulder and, that being the best feeling in the world, I'd smile and stroke her hair and just let her rest like that for a while as we both watched the breeze blowing through the tallest trees and the most beautiful flowers, the only two people around in that beautiful field under a brilliant blue sky interrupted only by dashes of puffy white clouds.
And maybe we'd stay out there all day until that blue sky became a twinkling starry night and maybe we wouldn't, but eventually she'd look up at me and say "I love you," and I'd look back at her and say "I love you too," and we'd both smile and sit for just a little while longer.
And then, just as we were getting up, each of us about to return to our home, she'd stop suddenly and pull my hand back. I'd look back at her with a gentle smile, wondering what was the matter, and ask, "What is it?" And she'd blush and look down at the ground for just a brief moment before, finally deciding to throw caution to the wind, she'd pull me close and kiss me.


(The girl's name is Aubrey, by the way.)

1)
Now here's the thing: At first it all seems sort of cute and romantic, but how romantic is it, really? Let's strip away all the poetic language I used to make it seem more beautiful, and cut it down to what it really is:
I want to hold hands with her, run up a hill with her, look at nature, let her rest her head on my shoulder, stroke her hair, tell her I love her, have her tell me she loves me, look into her eyes, and have her kiss me.
If that's not carnal nature, what is? Shouldn't I be happy with just the "I love you" and nothing more? Why is the touch so important?

2)
And I realize that some people will probably say, "It's just a dream. Don't worry about it." But pretend lust is still lust. Do I even need to mention that Aubrey and I ended up on bad terms (because of this huge misunderstanding on both of our parts; it's a very long story, trust me) and that there's almost no chance that I'll ever see her again until heaven anyway?
The thing is, in my dream, I'm basically wishing for something that probably can't happen... And I'm wishing for her love against her will, too. How evil is that? How sick am I to lust after a love that I can't have and that she doesn't want? Or, at the very least, she doesn't want it now; maybe back before April 19th, 2002 (http://www.livejournal.com/community/lightfinale/80248.html), when we were still friends, she would have been open to the possibility. (By the way, two things: 1) I apologize for how terribly my writing was back then, and 2) that was the last time I ever really talked to her. Like I said, it's a long story, but in a nutshell, she was already out of my French class by the following Monday, some of her friends tried to tell me that she'd switched out because of me, some of her friends tried to tell me that it was just coincidence, I didn't know what to believe, I thought she hated me, a few rumor-starting kids who'd always jokingly called me her stalker used my tears against me to prove that I was obsessing over her... Oh, forget it. Even in a nutshell, it's a long story.)

3)
And I realize that some people will probably say, "That's not lust at all, that's romance." I can almost see their point, but 1 Corinthians 13:4-5 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1COR%2B13%3A4-5&showfn=on&showxref=on&language=english&version=KJV&x=19&y=12) tells us in no uncertain terms that love is not self-seeking.
How is my dream in any way not self-seeking? I'm looking not just to give love, but to get it back--so, hey, maybe my dream isn't lust after all (or maybe it is), but it's definitely not love. It can't be, because it's self-seeking. So what is it?

4)
Or do I have it all wrong? I'm sure some people might say, "Well, we all have to feel some physical and sexual attraction before we're married or we probably wouldn't get married at all, right?"
And I can see that point of view, but how do you reconcile that with not lusting? When does love become lust? Is it based on society?
What I mean is, society tells us that it's okay to tell a girl (and I do) that she has a pretty face, or has pretty hair (and I do say those things), but what if I also think she has pretty hands, or pretty nails (with or without polish), or a pretty belly area, or pretty legs? Most Christians wouldn't condone that. (Oh, and I say nothing of most other areas because I usually don't think about other areas.)
But in the Song of Solomon, Solomon is pretty much telling his love that she's beautiful from head to toe (literally (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=SONG+7:1&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)), so why do most Christians agree that the only body part a guy should ever look at is her face?
Isn't that every bit as lustful (no more... but no less either!) as looking at anything else?
Or is it?
Should I have felt guilty on that day when I told her "I love how you did your nails!" because she'd used this really adorable sparkly emerald green nail polish that changed from green to black under different lighting on only her thumbs, index fingers, and ring fingers?
Should I have felt guilty that time I told her "Don't worry about it, I think you're always pretty!" when she accidentally dyed her hair pink (which I mentioned in another thread (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?postid=1233743#post1233743) a while back) and thought it looked terrible?
Should I have felt guilty either of the two times I told two more of my friends, Katie and Alexa, that I thought they looked pretty in a skirt? I mean, they looked pretty in anything to me, of course, but the skirts just had a lot of appeal because they wore them so rarely (and so did Aubrey, actually, but I never did tell her just how beautiful I thought she was when she'd ditch her jeans for a skirt five times a year or so).
Isn't that lust too?

5)
Or do I have it all wrong? Does it have to be about actual sex to be lust? I mean, in the "Is French kissing a sin? (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99335)" poll, most people said that it isn't, but where do we draw the line?
Is it sinful to kiss before marriage?
If not, is it sinful to French kiss before marriage?
If not, is it sinful to kiss other areas before marriage?
And even if not, now what if those kisses involve food items for extra "fun"?
Is it sinful to caress your lover's cheek before marriage?
If not, is it sinful to stroke your lover's hair before marriage?
If not, is it sinful to massage your lover's shoulders before marriage?
And even if not, now what if those touches are done while you're using handcuffs for extra "fun"? (Assuming no whips or anything sick like that...)
Is it sinful to see your lover in fancy, expensive clothing before marriage?
If not, is it sinful to see your lover in a swimsuit before marriage?
If not, is it sinful to see your lover in "sexy" clothing before marriage?
And even if not, now what if those clothes are worn because you're roleplaying for extra "fun"?
How do you draw the line? Does it have to involve those body parts before it's sinful lust? Can it be "clean" but kinky (food, bondage, roleplaying, etc.) and be sinful lust? I mean, I would think it doesn't have to involve actual intercourse to be lust, but how do you know when too far is too far?

6)
Or can lust exist at all if you're not married to begin with? Is it possible to commit adultery in your heart if you have no partner to be, err, adulterating on? I mean, we (guys) are told to treat women as sisters in 1 Timothy 5:1-2 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1TIM%2B5%3A1-2&showfn=on&showxref=on&language=english&version=KJV&x=10&y=15), and that must be for a reason, but like I said before, isn't it true that we probably have to have at least some attraction before marriage? How do you know when it's gone too far?

7)
And, anyway, even if I've been wrong about everything so far, what about this: I've seen many people around here say that one of the (many) reasons pornography is so bad is because it puts unrealistic expectations on a wife or husband, and usually leads to disappointment and an eventual lack of satisfaction in a marriage.
But how is my dream any different? I've put Aubrey on a pedestal and set her up to standards that would be impossibly high even if we were still friends, never mind that we're not. (Although I still love her and I always pray that I'll see her again somewhere around town sometime and get to reconcile everything... Of course, on the three or four occasions I've seen her down at the mall with her friends, I've always just run away again, too scared that she still believes everything that was said about me and that she's still scared of me like she was back then. I'm still a coward and a child inside.)

8)
I'm just looking for a Biblical perspective on this whole thing right now, because I really feel terrible about it at the moment. I went moping around the mall for 80 minutes today and my heart's just heavy right now... But I'm not sure whether it's more conviction from God or guilt from Satan, and that's why I need a Biblical perspective.
I mean, I haven't been able to pray for forgiveness for myself... Is that because there's actually nothing to be forgiven for in this case? I mean, I literally feel worse about this than I did that time I downplayed Jesus as Lord (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?postid=1315511#post1315511) without even realizing what I was doing.
Really, how can I feel so guilty if there's nothing wrong with my dream? Has Satan tricked me into thinking that something good is evil? Have I not put on the full armor of God, to be able to tell Satan that he's wrong? What scripture could I use to rebuke him? I can only think of scriptures that dig myself into a deeper hole...

So, look, in recap:

1) What's the difference between sweet dreams (romance) and sexual fantasies (lust) if they both involve touch?
2) Is it evil to love someone who doesn't necessarily want to return your feelings?
3) How is it possible to romantically love someone without being self-seeking?
4) How do you figure out when an appreciation of beauty becomes lust?
5) Where do you draw the line between activities that are okay before marriage and activities that aren't?
6) What's the difference between being attracted to someone and committing lustful adultery over her in your mind?
7) Is it evil to put someone on a pedestal even with a "sweet dream"?
8) Why don't I feel forgiven when I've prayed for forgiveness about this?

Anything you can offer to clear things up would be appreciated... I just don't know what to think or do. I'm usually pretty articulate, but in this one case, I can't even begin to describe how confused and guilty I feel... I just can't get this off my mind at all, and haven't been able to for the past three days.

[tractsforchrist]

Hi Jiggy. We have become friends on the board and I would like to say that I feel your pain, but that is not true because I am not you, especially since you are a male and I, female. But I can't answer all your questions but I hope to answer some.

When I came back to the faith, because of my past, I would not dare to look at a female. If I saw a female on my college campus

(which usually looks very scandelous. Even in winter they wear midriff tops and low cut shirts. I couldn't help but focus on the most evident part in shock. Not a lustful shock, but kind of like SHes wearing that?)

I would suddenly close my eyes shut real tight and think I had sinned because I had looked at a girl. I don't think you are in that situation, which I am glad about about because you don't want to go down that road of shame. Jesus did not redeem me so I would physically have to walk around blind ;):

I also felt guilty to even think that a girl is pretty (not in a lustful sense, but wow Miss America is pretty)<--much guilt and shame about that.

Or do I have it all wrong? I'm sure some people might say, "Well, we all have to feel some physical and sexual attraction before we're married or we probably wouldn't get married at all, right?"
And I can see that point of view, but how do you reconcile that with not lusting? When does love become lust? Is it based on society?
What I mean is, society tells us that it's okay to tell a girl (and I do) that she has a pretty face, or has pretty hair (and I do say those things), but what if I also think she has pretty hands, or pretty nails (with or without polish), or a pretty belly area, or pretty legs? Most Christians wouldn't condone that. (Oh, and I say nothing of most other areas because I usually don't think about other areas.)
But in the Song of Solomon, Solomon is pretty much telling his love that she's beautiful from head to toe (literally), so why do most Christians agree that the only body part a guy should ever look at is her face?
Isn't that every bit as lustful (no more... but no less either!) as looking at anything else?
Or is it?
Should I have felt guilty on that day when I told her "I love how you did your nails!" because she'd used this really adorable sparkly emerald green nail polish that changed from green to black under different lighting on only her thumbs, index fingers, and ring fingers?
Should I have felt guilty that time I told her "Don't worry about it, I think you're always pretty!" when she accidentally dyed her hair pink (which I mentioned in another thread a while back) and thought it looked terrible?
Should I have felt guilty either of the two times I told two more of my friends, Katie and Alexa, that I thought they looked pretty in a skirt? I mean, they looked pretty in anything to me, of course, but the skirts just had a lot of appeal because they wore them so rarely (and so did Aubrey, actually, but I never did tell her just how beautiful I thought she was when she'd ditch her jeans for a skirt five times a year or so).
Isn't that lust too?
I am going to quote a passage that really helped me from a book
[Now yes this is the "Purpose Driven Life" but I think this part is sound so no debating how awful PDL is ...]

"It is not a sin to be tempted. Jesus was tempted, yet he never sinned. Temptation only becomes a sin when you give into it."

"For example, many people don't know the difference between physical attraction or sexual arousal, and lust. They are not the same. God made every one of us a sexual being, and that is good. Attraction and arousal are the natural, spontaneous, God-Given responses to physical beauty, while lust is a deliberate act of will. Lust is a choice to commit inyour mind what you'd like to do with your boody. You can be attarcted or even aroused without choosing to sin by lusting. Many people, especially Christian men, feel guillty thattheir God-given hormones are working. When they automatically notice an attractive woman, they assume it is lust and feel ashamed and condemned. But attraction is not lust until you begin to dwell on it."


Now I think it is harder for me as a former bisexual because I am messed up because I can't differentiate what it is ok to think about different sexes. I think it would of been better if I was a homosexual because then I would know the thin red line when what was ok and what was not ok.


Or do I have it all wrong? Does it have to be about actual sex to be lust? I mean, in the "Is French kissing a sin?" poll, most people said that it isn't, but where do we draw the line?
Is it sinful to kiss before marriage?
If not, is it sinful to French kiss before marriage?
If not, is it sinful to kiss other areas before marriage?
And even if not, now what if those kisses involve food items for extra "fun"?
Is it sinful to caress your lover's cheek before marriage?
If not, is it sinful to stroke your lover's hair before marriage?
If not, is it sinful to massage your lover's shoulders before marriage?
And even if not, now what if those touches are done while you're using handcuffs for extra "fun"? (Assuming no whips or anything sick like that...)
Is it sinful to see your lover in fancy, expensive clothing before marriage?
If not, is it sinful to see your lover in a swimsuit before marriage?
If not, is it sinful to see your lover in "sexy" clothing before marriage?
And even if not, now what if those clothes are worn because you're roleplaying for extra "fun"?
How do you draw the line? Does it have to involve those body parts before it's sinful lust? Can it be "clean" but kinky (food, bondage, roleplaying, etc.) and be sinful lust? I mean, I would think it doesn't have to involve actual intercourse to be lust, but how do you know when too far is too far?


One of the things I was told about girls who ask about how close can they get to their heterosexual boyfriends, is how close can they get without getting burned by sin. The common response and my belief is, "How far can I get away?" is the true question.
My best friend waited until she was engaged to even kiss her boyfriend on the mouth (I seriously think this is the case because she always said that was how it was going to be) She told me the most uncomfortable moment of her dating life (3 different people ) was holding hands with a boy she had dated for 4 days because she knew he was not the one.
You got to realize that thinking someone is pretty is NOT a sin. Even as a female (this is why I had guilt for homosexual lust that was not there) I can recognize that someone is pretty. There are guys that I can recognize as handsome but I would never ever be tempted to lust after them (The weird art geeks are the one I get tempted with :pout)
There is a difference between beautiful and sexy and that is where I think you have to draw the line. You can recognize someone as beautiful and even sexy at times, but it is err to dwell on the sexy part.
I think this answers your question about handcuffs.
Just remember: How far can I get away?
I'm not married and I am your age but I keep on hearing that people were glad that they never went beyond innocent things. I don't know about your situation but I have certainly erred with my sexuality and I wish I could have it back. Can you imagine what Satan can use against you as firepower once you start crossing the line? I wonder, "What do I tell my future husband when I'm intimate with him and I am thinking of a "better" experience I had.<--especially with a different sex At least I still have my virginity which is unfortunately the only thing I can offer physically but not spiritually which is the best gift I ever could of given my husband.
Just remember that whenever you cross that line [and you have to have the holy spirit and the differentiation between normal and sin to realize what that line is, which others here will tell you about because as a woman I can never tell you what it is like to be a man] you are taking away from your future spouse. Even if the person you are dating is the "one" you will be glad that you gave the purest gift that you could ever give.

I will only be so lucky for my husband to show God's grace in forgiveness for not saving spiritually for my gift. He will forgive me because he will love me but I will always wonder, what would it had been like if I had saved?<--- This is why God still loves you when you fail and this is why he hates you being in sin, it wraps you in bondage even though you are free. He loves you so much he does not want you doing something that will hurt you as a perfect father



I cannot say your dream is a sin [actually I believe your dream was most innocent, but just because I tell you as indicated by your post, you would never believe me anyways...]

I would be concerned though that this girl is someone who is not currently in a relationship. I was in an obsessive relationship and I truly wrecked it myself into horrible little pieces whichis a long story [this is my deep horrible secret which I will not be telling all today but maybe a couple of years in the future when I am ready to break down]... but let me just say I still have a gift of his displayed near a window to remind me of never ruining another friendship like that again. It was perfect the way it was without me muddling in it. [When I met him, I truly thought he was "the one" It was like we were made for eachother. He had my likes and dislikes. We instantly clicked and within 10 minutes I "knew" he was the man I was going to marry... Too bad I could not get in my head that he just wanted to be friends and I think I know now he was batting for the home team] This is actually my biggest sin that I can't still forgive myself to this day [if I really revealed all you guys would recoil in horror I do believe.. ] even though the Lord has in his perfect ways. I just wanted to caution you on someone who took the extreme psychotic obsession route....<-- Note I have never been in a mental hospital or anything like that.. I was just saying that what I did erred on the psychotic side. My parents never knew what I did until the holy spirit told me to tell my mother. My mother said just one thing: Are you sorry?

I said Yes..

She said : Then get over it.
[I felt such perfect forgiveness even though it was not the person I hurt]


I hope this helps.. I know I did not answer all your questions but wooh I did go into this with a lot of time on my hands :wacko Its been a half hour!

[Angyl]

1) What's the difference between sweet dreams (romance) and sexual fantasies (lust) if they both involve touch?
Your heart. This is the answer to all your questions about different types of kisses being sin as well. Might be a sin for me if my heart is in the wrong place, might not be a sin for you. Might also be a sin if your heart is in the right place, but hers is not and/or is in danger of being broken over that little kiss.


2) Is it evil to love someone who doesn't necessarily want to return your feelings?
God, I hope not! Jesus would be in an awful lot of trouble if that were the case!

3) How is it possible to romantically love someone without being self-seeking?
The answer is different pending upon whether you are married or not. For the single (which applies to you), I admit that on a fundamental level it is difficult to achieve complete selflessness in the dating game because you ALWAYS have an ultimate aim. Marriage, seduction, whatever. I really can't give you an answer except to say when you get married you'll find yourself doing all sorts of romatic things selflessly (with no thought of (or in some marriages hope of) anything in return! :thumb).

4) How do you figure out when an appreciation of beauty becomes lust?
For me it's a simple matter of sex. If you're thinking about parts covered by clothes, it's lust. If you're imagining kisses, caresses or more, it's lust. If you're thinking GOOD GRIEF!! THAT GIRL IS FIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINE!! and you start drooling at just how GORGEOUS she is, soft, smooth skin, long beautiful hair, etc...appreciating her finer points without taking it to ANY KIND OF SEXUAL LEVEL..

it's not lust.
Same thing as examining the intricate details of a beautiful flower God made and all its finer qualities.

5) Where do you draw the line between activities that are okay before marriage and activities that aren't?
As I said before, for you it's YOUR call, actually. The Spirit will convict you when you cross your own personal boundary. Obviously, sex and sexual THOUGHTS are out of the question, but for some, a kiss is just a kiss. For others, a kiss always leads to deep, pulling urges and desires they're best left without.

6) What's the difference between being attracted to someone and committing lustful adultery over her in your mind?
Same theme as above...YOUR mind. If you're attracted to someone for their body and their body alone, you'd probably steer clear. A good test of this is to NOT see this person for awhile and see if your desire to see them grows, even apart from the pheremones they're overloading your system with when you're together.

7) Is it evil to put someone on a pedestal even with a "sweet dream"?
Your dreams are generally beyond your control. Get over it. I say generally because for some people, they lust and work so hard at something during the day, they are BOUND to dream about it at night... that's a problem. Me, for example, when I get a new game on my computer that I really enjoy and play for days on end, it will actually infiltrate my dreams where I'll imagine myself either playing the game or being IN the game (kinda strategizing in my sleep). for a game that's one thing, but if you're doing the same thing with a girl, you ARE in control of your dreams and are causing that kind of lust on a conscious/subconscious level. Probably best to put a little space in there.

8) Why don't I feel forgiven when I've prayed for forgiveness about this?
Dunno... Maybe you don't want to be? Maybe in your heart of hearts you know you aren't sorry and WILL commit, what are sins in your heart again?

I've been there plenty of times when I stumble and pray, knowing that it is quite likely that I will stumble AGAIN, and that knowledge makes me feel either like I'm not really being forgiven or that I shouldn't even bother asking for forgiveness.

Wrong attitude.

Go to the throne, leave it there and...

LEAVE IT THERE! Remember that God's grace is sufficent for even the most wicked heart (read; not yours). :wave

[antsinmypants]

Angyl, you typed the words I was about to... !

:thumb

[Hootmon]

1) What's the difference between sweet dreams (romance) and sexual fantasies (lust) if they both involve touch?
Where and How the touch is applied make the difference. Works the same way for thoughts.

2) Is it evil to love someone who doesn't necessarily want to return your feelings?
No. Love often isnt under your 'control'.

3) How is it possible to romantically love someone without being self-seeking?
Romantic love is part of people. Without it, there would be a lot fewer of us humans around.

4) How do you figure out when an appreciation of beauty becomes lust?
See 1)

5) Where do you draw the line between activities that are okay before marriage and activities that aren't?
Depends on the people involved. For some people kissing is just fine. For others, its too 'stimulating'.

6) What's the difference between being attracted to someone and committing lustful adultery over her in your mind?
See 1)

7) Is it evil to put someone on a pedestal even with a "sweet dream"?
Im not sure what this means. You are to love God 1st and your spouse as a close 2nd.

8) Why don't I feel forgiven when I've prayed for forgiveness about this?
Perhaps there isnt anything requiring forgiveness? You may want to unburden yourself of some of the guilt you seem to be feeling.

[Man of jade]

Originally posted by Jiggy37
So, look, in recap:

1) What's the difference between sweet dreams (romance) and sexual fantasies (lust) if they both involve touch?
2) Is it evil to love someone who doesn't necessarily want to return your feelings?
3) How is it possible to romantically love someone without being self-seeking?
4) How do you figure out when an appreciation of beauty becomes lust?
5) Where do you draw the line between activities that are okay before marriage and activities that aren't?
6) What's the difference between being attracted to someone and committing lustful adultery over her in your mind?
7) Is it evil to put someone on a pedestal even with a "sweet dream"?
8) Why don't I feel forgiven when I've prayed for forgiveness about this?

Anything you can offer to clear things up would be appreciated... I just don't know what to think or do. I'm usually pretty articulate, but in this one case, I can't even begin to describe how confused and guilty I feel... I just can't get this off my mind at all, and haven't been able to for the past three days. [/B]
1) The difference between love and lust is the way you feel. With lust you would feel a lot more... Frisky. I would describe love, but lets just say its a little more complex than that.
2) I wouldn't say its evil, but I wouldn't want my feelings for someone to go unrequited. If I love someone, I'd appreciate it if they'd love back.
3) Perhaps it is both? It is difficult to maintain a relationship where you either give love and don't recieve it, or recieve it and don't give it.
4) Personally I find that out when my firehose becomes a fire hydrant. (I'm probably going to regret that later.)
5) For me, its dancing close to the fire without getting burnt. It might be different for other people.
6) Last time I checked, adultery was an offense committed against someone... I don't see anyone it is committed against before marriage.
7) Even when things looked absolutely hopeless, I've had some pretty strange things happen to me. Then again, I've also had some huge let downs. On a pedestal in a dream?... Ask yourself this... were you in control in the dream? If you weren't, then I don't believe it's evil. It's like blaiming yourself for it rainging on you, were you could not have prevented it from happening.
8) Maybe it isn't wrong, so you did not need to be forgiven in the first place.

[antsinmypants]

Originally posted by Man of jade
6) Last time I checked, adultery was an offense committed against someone... I don't see anyone it is committed against before marriage.

It's called Fornication:

Main Entry: for·ni·ca·tion
Pronunciation: "for-n&-'kA-sh&n
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
: consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other

www.m-w.com


Hbr 13:4 Marriage [is] honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

1Cr 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.

1Cr 6:13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body [is] not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

1Cr 7:2 Nevertheless, [to avoid] fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

also found in these verses:

2Ch 21:11, Isa 23:17, Eze 16:26, Eze 16:29, Mat 5:32, Mat 19:9, Jhn 8:41, Act 15:20, Act 15:29, Act 21:25, Rom 1:29, 1Cr 5:1 , 1Cr 6:13, 1Cr 6:18, 1Cr 7:2, 1Cr 10:8, 2Cr 12:21, Gal 5:19, Eph 5:3, Col 3:5, 1Th 4:3, Jud 1:7, Rev 2:14, Rev 2:20, Rev 2:21, Rev 9:21, Rev 14:8, Rev 17:2, Rev 17:4, Rev 18:3, Rev 18:9, Rev 19:2


:thumb

[LaMontre]

Originally posted by Jiggy37
So, look, in recap:

1) What's the difference between sweet dreams (romance) and sexual fantasies (lust) if they both involve touch?
2) Is it evil to love someone who doesn't necessarily want to return your feelings?
3) How is it possible to romantically love someone without being self-seeking?
4) How do you figure out when an appreciation of beauty becomes lust?
5) Where do you draw the line between activities that are okay before marriage and activities that aren't?
6) What's the difference between being attracted to someone and committing lustful adultery over her in your mind?
7) Is it evil to put someone on a pedestal even with a "sweet dream"?
8) Why don't I feel forgiven when I've prayed for forgiveness about this?

Anything you can offer to clear things up would be appreciated... I just don't know what to think or do. I'm usually pretty articulate, but in this one case, I can't even begin to describe how confused and guilty I feel... I just can't get this off my mind at all, and haven't been able to for the past three days.

Well, I have not read the entire thread but I find your dillema to be a common misunderstanding of what it is to be a Christian.

You are a sinner. Saved by grace. The problems you refer are what is "common to man".

We men are not especially sensitive to these things as women struggle with the same things. So it is common to everyone. Jesus told us things like, "If you even lust after a woman you have commited adultry" to let us know....1) That no matter what we do or dont do, were guilty before God. 2) That He came for more than just the acts of sin. He became sin for us. So what has been dealt with is not only your sins, but your sinful nature. Now we don't see this now and that is where the struggle begins. We see only that our sinful nature still thrives and if we allow it to we fall over into whatever sins we might tempted by.

When this happens we need only to remember, we have an advocate with the Father. And in fact God sees us "in Christ". Sees us even now as He is. But to retain a clear conscience before God and thereby and good solid unbroken fellowship (relationship) we must respond to whatever (I reiterate WHAT EVER) our personal conscience drives to repent of through conviction.

Once this is done, however long that may take, we are placed back into fellowship.

1 Cor 8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

I am not saying you have a weak conscience in this instance. Let me make my point.

The conscience is definately something to be heeded. Right or wrong (according to revelation) weak or not weak. See what I mean?

Point is, there is no reason for you to drive yourself crazy with your sinful nature. Place it in Gods hands and do the best you can, and God will honor your resistance, and He will forgive your failure. My basic word to you is to rest in the finished work of Jesus Christ. It's really all we can do as sinners saved by grace.

[Xtreme]

Dude... first thing you need to do is STEP BACK FROM THE COMPUTER AND TAKE A DEEP BREATH.

done? don't forget to let it out too.... ok....

dreams are dreams... they can't be controlled. they are not sinful.

now... you're a guy and you're not perfect so first of all ya gotta realize that you're going to have a LOT of sinful thoughts enter that testosterone driven brain of yours about this little lady. accept it. you're going to be attracted to her... you're going to want to kiss her (and i don't mean the way ya kiss yer sister either) :pound ok ok...

my point is, if you beat yourself up about all of these thoughts and dreams you're goin' to go crazy.

do this: pray before you go to see her and ask the Lord to protect your mind from undue temptation.

then do this: realize that you will be tempted but its what you do with those thoughts that count!! you can: A. act on them [big no-no!] B. Capture them and place them in the recycle bin! [this is the right answer]

also consider this: don't place yourself in a position that makes it too easy to act on anything.

and lastly: PRAY SOME MORE! God will give you an out.

Now lets recap:

1) What's the difference between sweet dreams (romance) and sexual fantasies (lust) if they both involve touch?

- sweet dreams are just that: dreams. enjoy them. sexual fantasies fall under the normal but sinful category and you must capture them and get rid of them! edited to add: i would suggest praying before you go to sleep and asking that the Lord doesn't allow you to have lustful or sexual dreams.

2) Is it evil to love someone who doesn't necessarily want to return your feelings?

no that's not evil. God loves everyone but does everyone love God? 'Course not. but on the same token, if someone you seek doesn't also seek you, move on.

3) How is it possible to romantically love someone without being self-seeking?

- it aint. so don't try. just do your best to have proper and pure intentions.


4) How do you figure out when an appreciation of beauty becomes lust?

- C'MON MAN! you know dern well if you're lusting after a girl or not. when you look at a painting, or a beautiful landscape, do you get that funny feelin' down in your guts? the fact is as a man you just have to be in charge of what you do with the thoughts and smash them at the door. Pray and repent immediately!


5) Where do you draw the line between activities that are okay before marriage and activities that aren't?

- Judgment call. but i'll tell you this as someone who's been around a bit:

***** CAUTION, this part is a bit graphic but not obscene *****

Do:
- Holding hands is ok, as is hugging and a goodnite kiss (just a quick kiss, don't swallow her)

Don't do these things no matter how badly you want to:
- Don't put your hands on her breasts or her backside or anywhere else that aint appropriate

- Passionate french kissing, etc. will only lead to the first DON'T so just don't do it. A goodnite kiss is ok.

Any sort of sexual contact is forbidden! And this isn't Bill Clinton rules either. Oral or othewise, if parts of you touch parts of her sexualy its WRONG!

6) What's the difference between being attracted to someone and committing lustful adultery over her in your mind?

See #4

7) Is it evil to put someone on a pedestal even with a "sweet dream"?

Is it evil to put someone on a pedestal? What is that? Do you worship them? If so, yeah... But a metaphorical pedestal isn't evil i don't think.

8) Why don't I feel forgiven when I've prayed for forgiveness about this?

- because you're human and the devil and his minions want nothing more than for you to NOT feel forgiven. know this in your heart that if you are sincere and you ask God he will forgive you end of story!

***** And I would suggest consulting a pastor for further guidance!. And did I say PRAY? hehe *****


ybic,

Mike
[by the way, i'm married , got 2 kids and one of 'ems a girl... and if a boy does one of the don'ts we got a big problem Houston!]

[janh7]

Just thought I would add this as a side note:

my 22 yo dd has just taken a position with a company with whom she signed a contract that incorporated a moral code of conduct clause. This clause includes things like:
-I will not be alone behind closed doors with a member of the opposite sex
-I will honor a 12:00 am curfew
-I will avoid pda with the opposite sex
-I will not be involved with homosexual activity
-I will not use alcohol or drugs
-I will avoid the very appearance of evil

It has worked out really well so far. It takes some of the pressure off when it is spelled out like that.

[LaMontre]

Originally posted by janh7
Just thought I would add this as a side note:

my 22 yo dd has just taken a position with a company with whom she signed a contract that incorporated a moral code of conduct clause. This clause includes things like:
-I will not be alone behind closed doors with a member of the opposite sex
-I will honor a 12:00 am curfew
-I will avoid pda with the opposite sex
-I will not be involved with homosexual activity
-I will not use alcohol or drugs
-I will avoid the very appearance of evil

It has worked out really well so far. It takes some of the pressure off when it is spelled out like that.

Das pretty cool, what company is this? If I may ask?

[antsinmypants]

pda?

The only "PDA" I know of involves computers...

[Jiggy37]

[Note: It's going to take me a long time to get around to responding to everyone, so bear with me here... And here I thought I wouldn't get any responses at all!]

Originally posted by tractsforchrist
Hi Jiggy. We have become friends on the board and I would like to say that I feel your pain, but that is not true because I am not you, especially since you are a male and I, female.

Being friends is more than enough for me, Tracts-chan. *hugs* Of course I understand that you're not going to understand me perfectly...

If I saw a female on my college campus

(which usually looks very scandelous. Even in winter they wear midriff tops and low cut shirts. I couldn't help but focus on the most evident part in shock. Not a lustful shock, but kind of like SHes wearing that?)

I would suddenly close my eyes shut real tight and think I had sinned because I had looked at a girl. I don't think you are in that situation, which I am glad about about because you don't want to go down that road of shame.

I am sort of there, actually. Sometimes I'll look at a girl wearing like a short skirt and I'll be like, "Wow, is that short. :wacko ...Wait, what am I doing looking there anyway? :tsk :doh Bad me..."

Jesus did not redeem me so I would physically have to walk around blind ;):

Good point...

I also felt guilty to even think that a girl is pretty (not in a lustful sense, but wow Miss America is pretty)<--much guilt and shame about that.

I've been there before. I remember a time when I was telling my friends about it and I got, like, a string of sarcastic responses about how "oh no, he's so terribly evil, he actually told a girl she was pretty." ...

[quoted from the book]
For example, many people don't know the difference between physical attraction or sexual arousal, and lust. They are not the same. God made every one of us a sexual being, and that is good. Attraction and arousal are the natural, spontaneous, God-Given responses to physical beauty, while lust is a deliberate act of will. Lust is a choice to commit in your mind what you'd like to do with your body.

Okay, that makes sense to me, but now I still have to figure out which things are okay to commit in my mind and which aren't.

how close can they get without getting burned by sin. The common response and my belief is, "How far can I get away?" is the true question.

I like that one, Tracts-chan... I really do.

My best friend waited until she was engaged to even kiss her boyfriend on the mouth

But on the other hand, I wonder if we really need to go that far. More on that when I get to Angyl's, Hootmon's, and others' responses, though.

There is a difference between beautiful and sexy and that is where I think you have to draw the line. You can recognize someone as beautiful and even sexy at times, but it is err to dwell on the sexy part.
I think this answers your question about handcuffs.

Well, sort of, but not quite... That answers my question about the food thing (which, for the record, I could never see myself being interested in), but not so much about handcuffs because what if it's not so much about the sex, but the playful aspect of it?
What I mean is, sometimes kids at camps have silly fun messing around with each other and tying each other to trees and chairs and whatnot and obviously that's not a sexual thing at all, but what if a couple is doing the same? If a touch wasn't inherently sinful--and maybe it is; I'm just saying that if, hypothetically, it wasn't sinful--would it become sinful if something more was added? (But like I said, maybe others have covered that better...)
And then I was wondering the same thing about roleplaying, which I don't think anyone touched upon. Kids like to act out fantasies like a knight in shining armor slaying the dragon and saving the princess, or things like that. If a couple does the same thing, but with a slight sexual element added (like kissing), has it become wrong?

Just remember: How far can I get away?

I'm not married and I am your age but I keep on hearing that people were glad that they never went beyond innocent things. I don't know about your situation but I have certainly erred with my sexuality and I wish I could have it back. Can you imagine what Satan can use against you as firepower once you start crossing the line? I wonder, "What do I tell my future husband when I'm intimate with him and I am thinking of a "better" experience I had.

I'm sorry, Tracts-chan. :(: *hug*
I've never done anything with anybody and probably won't, so I guess at least I can say the only "better" experiences I've ever had have all been in my mind.
(Of course, knowing me, I'd never want to have sex with someone anyway... But that's getting back to how I have some sort of deep-rooted fear of actual sex, which I'm not getting into again (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?postid=1204804#post1204804)...)

[actually I believe your dream was most innocent, but just because I tell you as indicated by your post, you would never believe me anyways...]

You're right, I probably wouldn't. ^_^;; Very observant of you to notice that... Nothing personal, of course, because I do love my favorite Tracts-chan (http://www.livejournal.com/users/jiggychan/195745.html) in the world; I'm just really defeated here.

I would be concerned though that this girl is someone who is not currently in a relationship.

Good point. And I'm sorry about your story... -_-

I hope this helps.. I know I did not answer all your questions but wooh I did go into this with a lot of time on my hands :wacko Its been a half hour!

It's okay. Thank you for the time you did give me... I really appreciate it. *hugs*

[Bondservant]

Excellent biblically based book on the subject:
God's Design for Christian Dating
by Greg Laurie
~~~~~~~
When you are "dating" you are to view the person whom you are dating as a sister or brother in the Lord. Why do anything that would cause the other to stumble or burn, or yourself. I had a friend who was a dating a guy who I respect in the Lord tremendously. They dated for several months before he even gave her a quick kiss goodnight. He was focused on getting to know her and seeking the Lord as to His will if she was the one for him. She told me as thier relationship progressed (she is a Christian too ) one night when he kissed her good night she tried to french kiss him. He gently pulled back from her and tenderly explained that he thought that would not be good for them as he felt that type of kiss should be saved for a marriage relationship as it would only cause them to burn even more for each other (sexually). I would agree with him in that, when you kiss someone deeply like that it causes you to burn sexually for them. He told her he wanted to keep thier relationship holy before the Lord. Even when the were engaged he would not let into that...but she told be thier wedding night was awesome!!! He was being the spiritual leader in thier relationship from the beginning and she respects and loves him for it all the more.

[janh7]

LaMontre, my daughter is with a ballet company, Ballet Magnificat!. It is a professional Christian ballet company.

PDA? = Public display of affection :pound

[Jiggy37]

I'd like to respond to several of you at once now. I'm not trying to be impersonal, but it's more for my own benefit than anything else, so that I can see everyone's answers side-by-side.

Just the first three questions for now...

My question:
1) What's the difference between sweet dreams (romance) and sexual fantasies (lust) if they both involve touch?

Originally posted by Angyl
Your heart. This is the answer to all your questions about different types of kisses being sin as well. Might be a sin for me if my heart is in the wrong place, might not be a sin for you. Might also be a sin if your heart is in the right place, but hers is not and/or is in danger of being broken over that little kiss.

I think yours was the answer I was looking for the most. :thumb Makes perfect sense to me.

Originally posted by Hootmon
Where and How the touch is applied make the difference. Works the same way for thoughts.

I can understand the "where," but what do you mean by the "how"? I mean, I can definitely understand that touches to certain areas are lustful regardless (assuming they're done on purpose, of course), but how do we decide what's off-limits?
Obviously, chest = bad and lower area = bad, but are--just to give examples--shoulder massages, foot massages, etc. sexual in nature?
As Tracts was getting at, the question is certainly "how far can we stay away?", and as Angyl mentioned, it depends on the heart of both people involved... But assuming that both people's hearts are in the right place, are those massages still too sexual and reaching into the field of lust?

Originally posted by Man of jade
The difference between love and lust is the way you feel. With lust you would feel a lot more... Frisky. I would describe love, but lets just say its a little more complex than that.

Well, um, thanks for the answer. :): I guess my only problem with that is, couldn't feeling frisky occasionally (not always) be temptation straight from the devil and we just wouldn't know that? What if we really are in love, but Satan convinces us we're not?

Originally posted by Xtreme
- sweet dreams are just that: dreams. enjoy them. sexual fantasies fall under the normal but sinful category and you must capture them and get rid of them! edited to add: i would suggest praying before you go to sleep and asking that the Lord doesn't allow you to have lustful or sexual dreams.

Maybe I should have mentioned that by "dreams," I meant "daydreams"... Sorry about that.
Still good advice, though. :): I haven't run into any dream dreams even on the level of my Sound of Music thing just yet because they always end before the kissing part (I guess it's hard to dream about kissing if I've never been kissed?), but you never know.



My question:

2) Is it evil to love someone who doesn't necessarily want to return your feelings?

Originally posted by Angyl
God, I hope not! Jesus would be in an awful lot of trouble if that were the case!

:pound
Okay, I see your point there... But I was really talking about more of a romantic sort of love.

Originally posted by Hootmon
No. Love often isnt under your 'control'.

As much sense as that makes, couldn't we bring it under our control if we really wanted to? We can do all things through Christ. Many of our RR members say that homosexuals must overcome their feelings--and I agree with them, for the record, but now that the tables are turned on me, I believe I should be practicing what I preach and finding a way to get these thoughts out of my mind.

Originally posted by Man of jade
I wouldn't say its evil, but I wouldn't want my feelings for someone to go unrequited. If I love someone, I'd appreciate it if they'd love back.

Yeah, if only... :(:

Originally posted by Xtreme
no that's not evil. God loves everyone but does everyone love God? 'Course not. but on the same token, if someone you seek doesn't also seek you, move on.

I understand that most people follow that advice of moving on and think it's good advice, but my problem runs deeper than that here... And this is getting off-track, but I still think it's worth mentioning:
When I was 16 (and she was 14), I promised her in a note that I'd be there for her for whatever she needed, whenever she needed it. The problem with that is, whether or not I meant it literally (and I don't remember), I still made that promise one way or the other, and the way I worded it, I had said I'd be there for "whatever" she needed, not "whatever she needed... except a boyfriend."
But by now it's coming back to haunt me. I promised her something a long time ago, but how far should I be going to keep that promise? By now it's to the point where I think it's slowly killing me, but how can I break a promise? How can I willingly turn myself into a liar when I know that I don't have to? Should I break a promise for the sake of my own sanity, or should I stick along the path of righteousness and hold to my word even though it's tearing me apart?



My question:
3) How is it possible to romantically love someone without being self-seeking?

Originally posted by Angyl
The answer is different pending upon whether you are married or not. For the single (which applies to you), I admit that on a fundamental level it is difficult to achieve complete selflessness in the dating game because you ALWAYS have an ultimate aim. Marriage, seduction, whatever. I really can't give you an answer except to say when you get married you'll find yourself doing all sorts of romatic things selflessly (with no thought of (or in some marriages hope of) anything in return! :thumb).

While most of that makes sense to me, the problem is, if it's different depending on whether you're married or not, then isn't every single person in the world living in sin (by having self-seeking "love") before getting married?

Originally posted by Hootmon
Romantic love is part of people. Without it, there would be a lot fewer of us humans around.

Okay, but then how do you reconcile that with "love isn't self-seeking" in 1 Corinthians 13:4-5 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1COR%2B13%3A4-5&showfn=on&showxref=on&language=english&version=KJV&x=19&y=12)? Am I misunderstanding what Paul is trying to say?

Originally posted by Man of jade
Perhaps it is both? It is difficult to maintain a relationship where you either give love and don't recieve it, or recieve it and don't give it.

I know, but that's my point. I don't understand how it can even be possible to have a romantic love that isn't self-seeking.

Originally posted by Xtreme
- it aint. so don't try. just do your best to have proper and pure intentions.

And I do, but my best isn't good enough. I'm still saved, yes, but if I can help it at all, I don't want to be living outside the will of God with my self-seeking love.

[Jiggy37]

Now for the next three questions... After this, I'm taking a break for a while (I'm putting this in the intro after I've just finished writing the rest of the post, and I've been at this for about an hour and a half), and I'll come back with responses for the responses I got from my last two questions, and for LaMontre and Bondservant also.

4) How do you figure out when an appreciation of beauty becomes lust?

Originally posted by Angyl
For me it's a simple matter of sex. If you're thinking about parts covered by clothes, it's lust. If you're imagining kisses, caresses or more, it's lust. If you're thinking GOOD GRIEF!! THAT GIRL IS FIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINE!! and you start drooling at just how GORGEOUS she is, soft, smooth skin, long beautiful hair, etc...appreciating her finer points without taking it to ANY KIND OF SEXUAL LEVEL..

it's not lust.
Same thing as examining the intricate details of a beautiful flower God made and all its finer qualities.

Well, yeah, but like I said, how do I know what her "finer points" are? What makes it more okay to look at one part of her body than another (without sexual thoughts, like you said)?
You mentioned that it's lust to think about parts covered by clothes, but then mentioned a few points that you think are okay to appreciate... But what if I'm thinking about how beautiful her hair is while she's wearing a hat? Or what if I'm thinking about how soft and smooth her arms are (like really soft and light-colored hair, maybe), but she's wearing a jacket?

Originally posted by Man of jade
4) Personally I find that out when my firehose becomes a fire hydrant. (I'm probably going to regret that later.)

Well, now, that's just crude. :wacko Funny, but crude.
I'm not sure about how true that is, though. Many guys are more, ahem, "easily pleased" than others... I'm one of them. You know one thing I find interesting about myself? Jesus warned us about looking on a woman with lust to commit adultery in our own minds. Whenever I lust, I look on a girl with lust, but the only thing I commit in my own mind is usually more looking. :wacko
Like I've said occasionally in the past few months I've been here, I have this thing about being squeamish about actual sex, so I don't think about that... But when it comes to looking, I do it in spades and then sometimes think about it in my spare time too. I can't figure out whether that's wrong to do or not.

Originally posted by Xtreme
- C'MON MAN! you know dern well if you're lusting after a girl or not. when you look at a painting, or a beautiful landscape, do you get that funny feelin' down in your guts? the fact is as a man you just have to be in charge of what you do with the thoughts and smash them at the door. Pray and repent immediately!

Well, no, I don't get any funny feeling from looking at those things. But I also don't get any funny feeling from looking at basically any part of a girl. If I think she has pretty legs, for example, is that lust or just me stating my opinion?



My question:

5) Where do you draw the line between activities that are okay before marriage and activities that aren't?

Originally posted by Angyl
As I said before, for you it's YOUR call, actually. The Spirit will convict you when you cross your own personal boundary. Obviously, sex and sexual THOUGHTS are out of the question, but for some, a kiss is just a kiss. For others, a kiss always leads to deep, pulling urges and desires they're best left without.

And as with my first question, I think that was the sort of answer I was looking for. :):

Originally posted by Hootmon
Depends on the people involved. For some people kissing is just fine. For others, its too 'stimulating'.

Originally posted by Man of jade
For me, its dancing close to the fire without getting burnt. It might be different for other people.

Okay, so I think that makes three of you who are in agreement on that one. I guess it must be good advice...

Originally posted by Xtreme
Judgment call. but i'll tell you this as someone who's been around a bit:

***** CAUTION, this part is a bit graphic but not obscene *****

Do:
- Holding hands is ok, as is hugging and a goodnite kiss (just a quick kiss, don't swallow her)

Don't do these things no matter how badly you want to:
- Don't put your hands on her breasts or her backside or anywhere else that aint appropriate

- Passionate french kissing, etc. will only lead to the first DON'T so just don't do it. A goodnite kiss is ok.

Any sort of sexual contact is forbidden! And this isn't Bill Clinton rules either. Oral or othewise, if parts of you touch parts of her sexualy its WRONG!

:pound at the "Bill Clinton rules" line!
I guess I'm somewhat fortunate that I don't have to worry about most of those things... French kissing and sexual contact disgust me right now anyway.
As for not putting my hands anywhere that isn't appropriate, I agree. Do you think everyone else's guidelines are pretty good, that the places that are appropriate to touch (excluding the obvious sexual contact, of course) really depends on me and the girl I'm with, and that what's really important is that we should just stay away from anything that's tempting?



My question:

6) What's the difference between being attracted to someone and committing lustful adultery over her in your mind?

Originally posted by Angyl
Same theme as above...YOUR mind. If you're attracted to someone for their body and their body alone, you'd probably steer clear. A good test of this is to NOT see this person for awhile and see if your desire to see them grows, even apart from the pheremones they're overloading your system with when you're together.

Okay, I can agree with that. :nod Thanks for the advice.

Originally posted by Man of jade
Last time I checked, adultery was an offense committed against someone... I don't see anyone it is committed against before marriage.

Originally posted by antsinmypants
It's called Fornication:

Main Entry: for·ni·ca·tion
Pronunciation: "for-n&-'kA-sh&n
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
: consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other

Okay, thanks Ants-ch... err, Ants-san (:D:). I knew there had to be something wrong with it.

[Wileyzmuse]

This is an interesting topic...I guess you could back up and ask yourself if you are spending your mental energy on these types of fantasies and questioning how far is too far...then you may have an issue with surrendering your thoughts and heart to Christ alone. Especially if the person you are fantasizing about it not committed to you at all.

Role playing, that *may* or *may not* have elements of physical intimacy, in my mind this is feeding fantasy development, and certain people cannot control themselves in this area.

I believe that this sort of discussion is trying to use our flesh to discern what is best for the flesh. Commit the thought and fantasy life to God and let Him decide what is ok or not. I have a strong feeling that God would not want us wasting time on these kinds of fruitless behaviors, when there are so many lost people who need to be reached.

I pray that this is not too harsh, and please forgive me if it sounds that way. The more a man can respect women in his thoughts, the more likely he will be to respect her in real life, imo.

YSIC,
Patricia

[LaMontre]

Originally posted by janh7
LaMontre, my daughter is with a ballet company, Ballet Magnificat!. It is a professional Christian ballet company.

PDA? = Public display of affection :pound

LOL!!

Well I was just curious if there was a place for a teen to work like that because I have a teen daughter and it seems that would be a really cool influence if nothing else.

Ah well.........hehehe.

[tractsforchrist]

Hijack!

Chances of her seeing this: 2.174% just changed into 100%

*Now I am going to get Jiggy all blushey...*



http://www.livejournal.com/users/jiggychan/195745.html

[antsinmypants]

Originally posted by janh7
LaMontre, my daughter is with a ballet company, Ballet Magnificat!. It is a professional Christian ballet company.

PDA? = Public display of affection :pound

Oh :doh I KNEW THAT!

Gee willakers, this Guafenacin is really playing me hard today!!
(remind me later that I hate allergy medication)

Tracts-chan, you are sooooooooooo dead meat :tape

[Jiggy37]

Originally posted by tractsforchrist
Hijack!

Chances of her seeing this: 2.174% just changed into 100%

*Now I am going to get Jiggy all blushey...*

Now now, Tracts-chan, I didn't put the link right there just to get embarrassed about it. ;): I get blushy over lots of stuff, but not that. :):



And coming next post: Coverage of my last two questions...

[tractsforchrist]

I was just trying to be kawaii about it.. I remember how I got there.. ;): I seriously would of had a 0% chance if you had not linked it...

I just thought it was funny because of the percentage..

[Jiggy37]

Okay, let me just cover my last two questions, and then I'll get to LaMontre, Bondservant, and Wileyzmuse, who also gave me very interesting responses worth considering.

My question:
7) Is it evil to put someone on a pedestal even with a "sweet dream"?

Originally posted by Angyl
Your dreams are generally beyond your control. Get over it. I say generally because for some people, they lust and work so hard at something during the day, they are BOUND to dream about it at night... that's a problem. Me, for example, when I get a new game on my computer that I really enjoy and play for days on end, it will actually infiltrate my dreams where I'll imagine myself either playing the game or being IN the game (kinda strategizing in my sleep). for a game that's one thing, but if you're doing the same thing with a girl, you ARE in control of your dreams and are causing that kind of lust on a conscious/subconscious level. Probably best to put a little space in there.

Okay, that makes sense... But the problem is, what if it only comes up like once every two weeks or so? It's not like I think about her night and day (or at least not until recently, now that I'm feeling guilty for whatever reason)... If anything, I just think about her from time to time whenever it's quiet and I'm not doing something like schoolwork or posting at RR.

Originally posted by Hootmon
Im not sure what this means. You are to love God 1st and your spouse as a close 2nd.

Yeah, I'm sorry about that... I couldn't think of how to word it. What I really meant was, isn't it wrong to put such high expectations on her that maybe she'd never be able to live up to them?

Originally posted by Man of jade
Even when things looked absolutely hopeless, I've had some pretty strange things happen to me. Then again, I've also had some huge let downs. On a pedestal in a dream?... Ask yourself this... were you in control in the dream? If you weren't, then I don't believe it's evil. It's like blaming yourself for it raining on you, were you could not have prevented it from happening.

:doh More of me confusing everyone with my use of the word "dream." I mean daydream... Like how some people might "dream" of having a big fancy wedding one day.

Originally posted by Xtreme
Is it evil to put someone on a pedestal? What is that? Do you worship them? If so, yeah... But a metaphorical pedestal isn't evil i don't think.

And here my confusing wording strikes again. What I'm saying is, am I expecting too much?



My question:
8) Why don't I feel forgiven when I've prayed for forgiveness about this?

Originally posted by Angyl
Dunno... Maybe you don't want to be? Maybe in your heart of hearts you know you aren't sorry and WILL commit, what are sins in your heart again?

I've been there plenty of times when I stumble and pray, knowing that it is quite likely that I will stumble AGAIN, and that knowledge makes me feel either like I'm not really being forgiven or that I shouldn't even bother asking for forgiveness.

Wrong attitude.

Go to the throne, leave it there and...

LEAVE IT THERE! Remember that God's grace is sufficent for even the most wicked heart (read; not yours). :wave

I agree that that's a very likely possibility. :(: That I'm not really looking to be forgiven, or that I know I'll just stumble again...
And I am trying to leave it there. I'm just having trouble... I guess it's my weakness.

Originally posted by Hootmon
Perhaps there isnt anything requiring forgiveness? You may want to unburden yourself of some of the guilt you seem to be feeling.

Originally posted by Man of jade
Maybe it isn't wrong, so you did not need to be forgiven in the first place.

Yeah, I mentioned that possibility. Like I hinted at in one of Frisian's threads (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?postid=1325516#post1325516), I can't figure out how to tell the difference between conviction from God and unnecessary guilt from Satan... I've tried asking in prayer, but maybe my prayers aren't sincere enough or long enough... I don't know.

Originally posted by Xtreme
because you're human and the devil and his minions want nothing more than for you to NOT feel forgiven. know this in your heart that if you are sincere and you ask God he will forgive you end of story!

***** And I would suggest consulting a pastor for further guidance!. And did I say PRAY? hehe *****

Yes, of course God will forgive me... But it seems to me like God's already forgiven me, yet I just can't get over it... I really, really don't know why. I've always had trouble with praying for things for myself... I can pray for others, but it's like somehow I don't think of myself highly enough to be able to pray for myself...

[Jiggy37]

Originally posted by tractsforchrist
I was just trying to be kawaii about it.. I remember how I got there.. ;): I seriously would of had a 0% chance if you had not linked it...

I just thought it was funny because of the percentage..

Well, I do try to entertain. :D: And the Tracts-chan is always kawaii. ;): Kawaii desu, even... I think. What does "desu" mean, anyway? I just know the two words go together often. :laugh

[Bondservant]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jiggy37
[I can't figure out how to tell the difference between conviction from God and unnecessary guilt from Satan... I've tried asking in prayer, but maybe my prayers aren't sincere enough or long enough... I don't know."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Stay in and study God's Word. When you know God's Word and what He has to say on things you will find you wrestle less with this. His Word is Light to our paths.

[tractsforchrist]

I'll post in Anything Goes about that. I have to go work on that. I'll be typing in Ms. I;ll come back to tell you it has arrived

[Jiggy37]

Originally posted by LaMontre
And in fact God sees us "in Christ". Sees us even now as He is. But to retain a clear conscience before God and thereby and good solid unbroken fellowship (relationship) we must respond to whatever (I reiterate WHAT EVER) our personal conscience drives to repent of through conviction.

[...]

The conscience is definately something to be heeded. Right or wrong (according to revelation) weak or not weak.

I agree with everything you've said (even though I only quoted the main points), but then my question is this: How do I know whether it's my conscience talking or Satan?
For over an entire year after I was saved (and before I started reading the Bible), I still didn't see anything wrong with homosexuality (just to use an example; I think my views on just about everything except homosexuality changed very quickly), and thought that my conscience said it was okay, but now I can see that that wasn't my conscience at all.
How do I know that this is? What I mean is, how do I know I'm not beating myself up over nothing?

Point is, there is no reason for you to drive yourself crazy with your sinful nature. Place it in Gods hands and do the best you can, and God will honor your resistance, and He will forgive your failure. My basic word to you is to rest in the finished work of Jesus Christ. It's really all we can do as sinners saved by grace.

:nod
I agree. All I can do is try my best...



Originally posted by Bondservant
Stay in and study God's Word. When you know God's Word and what He has to say on things you will find you wrestle less with this. His Word is Light to our paths.

You're right. I think I'll spend some time looking specifically for verses about my situation tonight instead of just continuing along reading through the Bible cover-to-cover again.

Also, thanks for the book recommendation. I'll have to see if the local Barnes and Noble carries that. I'm not into actual dating, of course, but dating in my mind is close enough...



Originally posted by Wileyzmuse
I guess you could back up and ask yourself if you are spending your mental energy on these types of fantasies and questioning how far is too far...then you may have an issue with surrendering your thoughts and heart to Christ alone. Especially if the person you are fantasizing about it not committed to you at all.

I have asked myself that before, and I'm undecided. I don't think about her more than maybe 2-5 minutes a day, whereas I'll spend lots of time here at RR trying to learn what I can, or writing anything Christian-related in my journal (which is public) or at other message boards to try and lead others to Christ--just last Monday I gave a 7-minute (or so) speech in my oral communications class about Christianity, even. If anything, I'd be more worried that I'm spend too much mental energy on RR and not enough on reading the Bible.

Role playing, that *may* or *may not* have elements of physical intimacy, in my mind this is feeding fantasy development, and certain people cannot control themselves in this area.

I agree... That's why I brought it up. I'd never want to try it on my own, but it's always possible that, if we're here for a few more years (which I doubt, but I don't want to get into a debate about that), a future girlfriend of mine might want to try it.
I think there are more problems with it than just developing fantasies, too... I think it has the potential to downplay a partner and turn them into more of an object (or stereotypical storybook character) than a lover. I could be wrong, of course.

I believe that this sort of discussion is trying to use our flesh to discern what is best for the flesh. Commit the thought and fantasy life to God and let Him decide what is ok or not. I have a strong feeling that God would not want us wasting time on these kinds of fruitless behaviors, when there are so many lost people who need to be reached.

I agree that it's best to let God decide what's okay. My only problem is with the last thing you said... I'm just not sure that it's possible to spend every waking moment devoting our lives to God and bring people to Christ.
Besides, I'm only 19, and I don't have the financial security right now to buy thousands of tracts and dozens of Bibles and free Christian videos to give away to people...

The more a man can respect women in his thoughts, the more likely he will be to respect her in real life, imo.

Absolutely. Now if only I could figure out when attraction crosses over into disrespect...

[tractsforchrist]

Ok Jiggy go to this--> Jigg37's wondering about Japanese (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=118253)

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by Jiggy37
I can understand the "where," but what do you mean by the "how"? By 'How' I am basically talking about Intent.

You used massage as an example. Ask yourself the question "Am I doing this for Theraputic reasons, or am I trying to Arouse him/her?"


Originally posted by Jiggy37
As much sense as that makes, couldn't we bring it under our control if we really wanted to? We can do all things through Christ. Many of our RR members say that homosexuals must overcome their feelings--and I agree with them, for the record, but now that the tables are turned on me, I believe I should be practicing what I preach and finding a way to get these thoughts out of my mind. Arent we talking about a possible life-mate here? Without those 'thoughts', it would be difficult to build up such a relationship.


Originally posted by Jiggy37
Okay, but then how do you reconcile that with "love isn't self-seeking" in 1 Corinthians 13:4-5? Am I misunderstanding what Paul is trying to say? Relationships between Men and Women are based on two principles. The Woman needs to Respect the Man, and the Man needs to Love the Woman. The basic reason for this is that Men and Women respond differently emotionally, and require certain type of affirmation to feel close to their life-mate. This particular subject actually deserves its own thread.


Originally posted by Jiggy37
What I really meant was, isn't it wrong to put such high expectations on her that maybe she'd never be able to live up to them? Perhaps. You need to re-adjust your expectations to align with the reality of the situation.

The saying goes... "Women marry Men expecting them to change, and they dont. Men marry Women expecting them to never change, and they do". :D:


Originally posted by Jiggy37
I can't figure out how to tell the difference between conviction from God and unnecessary guilt from Satan... I've tried asking in prayer, but maybe my prayers aren't sincere enough or long enough... I don't know. Personally speaking...
If the 'conviction' tends to drive me to be a better person, its from God.
However, if the 'conviction' only seems designed to make me feel bad about myself, its from Satan.

[LaMontre]

Originally posted by Jiggy37
I agree with everything you've said (even though I only quoted the main points), but then my question is this: How do I know whether it's my conscience talking or Satan?
For over an entire year after I was saved (and before I started reading the Bible), I still didn't see anything wrong with homosexuality (just to use an example; I think my views on just about everything except homosexuality changed very quickly), and thought that my conscience said it was okay, but now I can see that that wasn't my conscience at all.
How do I know that this is? What I mean is, how do I know I'm not beating myself up over nothing?

Thats where knowledge is directly related to conscience. Once you know what Gods judgement of fornication is, then your conscience will line up with God. And the bible is pretty clear about fornication which is really what homosexuality boils down to. It's just fornication.

[Jiggy37]

Originally posted by Hootmon
By 'How' I am basically talking about Intent.

You used massage as an example. Ask yourself the question "Am I doing this for Theraputic reasons, or am I trying to Arouse him/her?"

Ah, I see. I can agree with that; even a good thing, if done with the wrong intent, becomes wrong...

Arent we talking about a possible life-mate here? Without those 'thoughts', it would be difficult to build up such a relationship.

Difficult, yes, but aren't we called upon to overcome difficulty for the sake of doing what's good and right?

Relationships between Men and Women are based on two principles. The Woman needs to Respect the Man, and the Man needs to Love the Woman. The basic reason for this is that Men and Women respond differently emotionally, and require certain type of affirmation to feel close to their life-mate. This particular subject actually deserves its own thread.

Now that does deserve its own thread. I'd really like to know the reasoning here...

Perhaps. You need to re-adjust your expectations to align with the reality of the situation.

The saying goes... "Women marry Men expecting them to change, and they dont. Men marry Women expecting them to never change, and they do". :D:

:pound
I love it!

But what I was getting at more are my expectations for the experience (i.e. "we'll do exactly this thing at exactly the right time at exactly the right place and everything will be exactly right"), as opposed to the person herself. Is it possible that I expect too much from, say, my first kiss?

Personally speaking...
If the 'conviction' tends to drive me to be a better person, its from God.
However, if the 'conviction' only seems designed to make me feel bad about myself, its from Satan.

Fair enough, and that makes sense to me.



Originally posted by LaMontre
Thats where knowledge is directly related to conscience. Once you know what Gods judgement of fornication is, then your conscience will line up with God. And the bible is pretty clear about fornication which is really what homosexuality boils down to. It's just fornication.

Ah, I see what you're saying, then. I can agree with that; I should do more studying on this particular topic.