When did Jesus become aware of who he was? [Archive]

pilgrimian

November 17th, 2003, 12:30 AM

zion

November 17th, 2003, 01:51 AM

Originally posted by pilgrimian
I will have to find it...a verse in Isaiah that talks about how the Lord is wakened each morning and taught by God. Something along those lines. It basically shows Jesus being woken up early in the morning and learning Scripture and Theology. Imagine that! So I would say Jesus knew from quite a young age who He was (that is speaking in His human facet). He was fully God, and perfect man...therefore, He knew who He was all along.
please find that scripture :nod I would love to read it

Im gonna go find it myself.........

zion

November 17th, 2003, 01:54 AM

is this it???..........

The Lord God has given me the tongue of those who are taught, that I may know how to sustain with a word him who is weary. Morning by morning he awakens; he awakens my ear to hear as those who are taught.
Isaiah 50:4

Im pretty sure it is, because the verses fellowing it describe Jesus' suffering...

The Lord God has opened my ear,
and I was not rebellious;
I turned not backward.
I gave my back to those who strike,
and my cheeks to those who pull out the beard;
I hid not my face
from disgrace and spitting.

Isaiah 50:5,6

zion

November 17th, 2003, 01:55 AM

thanks for that little gem pilgrimian

:nod :D:

cameron222

November 17th, 2003, 08:59 AM

He likely knew His Earthly fate before He left the glories of heaven for His temporary assignment.

cameron222

November 17th, 2003, 09:16 AM

The Boy Jesus at the Temple

41Every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover. 42When he was twelve years old, they went up to the Feast, according to the custom. 43After the Feast was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. 44Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. 45When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. 46After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you."
49"Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" 50But they did not understand what he was saying to them.
51Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. 52And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

---------------------------------------
Even at age 12, Jesus knew something was going on........

Hootmon

November 17th, 2003, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by cameron222
He likely knew His Earthly fate before He left the glories of heaven for His temporary assignment. Agreed, but he also 'emptied' himself for his time as a human.

Since the flesh was a normal human, he would necessarily need to 'grow into' his role at least to some degree. Somehow I cant imaging that as an infant he was fully aware of his future adult life.

Its probably safe to say that by age 12, the age when boys were considered 'adult', he was fully aware of his 'assignment'.

Jael

November 17th, 2003, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by Hootmon
Agreed, but he also 'emptied' himself for his time as a human.

Since the flesh was a normal human, he would necessarily need to 'grow into' his role at least to some degree. Somehow I cant imaging that as an infant he was fully aware of his future adult life.

Its probably safe to say that by age 12, the age when boys were considered 'adult', he was fully aware of his 'assignment'.

I agree, since He said He needed to be about His Father's business, by then I'm sure He knew just what that business was...but it's not so clear how aware He was an infant...a two-year old...a five-year old... The word says that He grew in wisdom, so it doesn't sound like He was born knowing it all:

Luk 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

LaMontre

November 17th, 2003, 10:39 AM

So could anyone say Jesus ever sinned?

Before the "age of accountability" I mean?

Jael

November 17th, 2003, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by LaMontre
So could anyone say Jesus ever sinned?

Before the "age of accountability" I mean?

No, I wouldn't say that...scripture is adamant that Jesus had no personal sin...

Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Sin is still sin, even when committed before the age of accountability...I believe those who die as young children go to heaven, not because their sins are not counted, but because God mercifully applies the blood of Jesus for those too young to consciously place their faith in Christ. So when the Bible says that Jesus "knew no sin", I think He was completely sinless.

It does raise a lot of interesting questions, though, about just what constitutes sin...did Jesus cry and fuss when he was a teething baby? Probably so, this is not sin, just a baby's reaction to pain. Did he throw trantrums as a two-year-old when He didn't get His way? I'd have to say no, I don't think so...but it's hard to identify just where the line is between behavior that arises out of a child's inability to understand and behavior that is motivated by sinful self-will...it's interesting to ponder, for sure.

Xtreme

November 17th, 2003, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by LaMontre
So could anyone say Jesus ever sinned?

Before the "age of accountability" I mean?

No, he didn't sin. He was never capable of sinning... just as once we're in our resurected bodies we will be unable to sin.

The sin nature - which we're born with - is passed down via our father's lineage. Since Jesus had no earthly father, but rather God was his father, he had no link in that regard.

So he was never born with the ability to sin. It's analagous to someone being born without eyes... he simply is unable to see.

-----

there have been a lot of excellent replies about when Jesus became "sentient", if you will, about his role and identity.

i believe that at the age of 12 he most certainly knew... and by the time he was baptized by John he was fully aware of future events. the Bible says on occasion that Jesus knew the hearts of all men. he must have been omniscient <sp?> in order for that to be true. likewise, he knew before the foundation of the world that he would one day sacrafice himself willingly on the cross. the old testament is filled with references to the crucifixion. the ark of the covenant was repleat with symbols that represented a future crucifixion and resurection.

anyhow... time for more coffee!

more thoughts???

ybic,

mike

blitzkreig

November 17th, 2003, 11:14 AM

I would think He knew "Who" He was, that He had God as His Father very young. His mother would have told Him that Joseph wasn't His father. I'm sure His mother would have told Him about His special birth... and the circumstances. How He got His name, etc.

It may have been a while before He realized the significance... and His special Calling of Ministry. Perhaps even not long before His visit to Jerusalem and the Temple.

I only deduce this as there is no Scripture... but it makes sense or Mary would have been concealing something and I doubt she would have.

LaMontre

November 17th, 2003, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by Xtreme
No, he didn't sin. He was never capable of sinning... just as once we're in our resurected bodies we will be unable to sin.

The sin nature - which we're born with - is passed down via our father's lineage. Since Jesus had no earthly father, but rather God was his father, he had no link in that regard.

So he was never born with the ability to sin. It's analagous to someone being born without eyes... he simply is unable to see.

-----

there have been a lot of excellent replies about when Jesus became "sentient", if you will, about his role and identity.

i believe that at the age of 12 he most certainly knew... and by the time he was baptized by John he was fully aware of future events. the Bible says on occasion that Jesus knew the hearts of all men. he must have been omniscient <sp?> in order for that to be true. likewise, he knew before the foundation of the world that he would one day sacrafice himself willingly on the cross. the old testament is filled with references to the crucifixion. the ark of the covenant was repleat with symbols that represented a future crucifixion and resurection.

anyhow... time for more coffee!

more thoughts???

ybic,

mike

Thank you, I agree whole heartedly.

If Jesus was "as we are" then the immaculate conception is a lie and would have been totaly unnecessary. In fact, ANY man could have been the Messiah if that were true. He was not in what we might term, "fallen flesh". How could He have been and still be a spotless sacrifice or for that matter even indwelled by God?

He was (and is, and ever shall be) God.

Whosoever

November 17th, 2003, 11:32 AM

If He was incapable of sinning as a man, there would have been no need for the Temptation. I believe Yeshua was fully capable of sinning as a man, but He did not sin, not even as a child, for He knew only an unblemished lamb could take away the sins of men. He was born from a virgin to fulfill the prophecies and descend from Jewish lineage while also coming directly from God, not so He wouldn't ever be tempted. In Gethsemane He begged God to "take the cup" from Him and free Him of His destiny. He had the opportunity to walk away and was well aware of it, but decided to do God's will; a weaker man would have walked away, but Yeshua stayed and took our punishment. If He literally had no ability to sin, He could not have been tempted or feel the same pain we did.

It's a nobler thing to have felt the tug of temptation and resisted it, then to have been born into the world without a capacity for temptation. He made Himself a man four our sake; to be born without the ability to sin would have made Him more than a man.

By the way, I agree with Jael's version of the "age of accountability", but I too don't believe He ever sinned even as a child.

Jael

November 17th, 2003, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by Whosoever
If He was incapable of sinning as a man, there would have been no need for the Temptation. I believe Yeshua was fully capable of sinning as a man, but He did not sin, not even as a child, for He knew only an unblemished lamb could take away the sins of men. He was born from a virgin to fulfill the prophecies and descend from Jewish lineage while also coming directly from God, not so He wouldn't ever be tempted. In Gethsemane He begged God to "take the cup" from Him and free Him of His destiny. He had the opportunity to walk away and was well aware of it, but decided to do God's will; a weaker man would have walked away, but Yeshua stayed and took our punishment. If He literally had no ability to sin, He could not have been tempted or feel the same pain we did.

It's a nobler thing to have felt the tug of temptation and resisted it, then to have been born into the world without a capacity for temptation. He made Himself a man four our sake; to be born without the ability to sin would have made Him more than a man.

By the way, I agree with Jael's version of the "age of accountability", but I too don't believe He ever sinned even as a child.

I agree with what you've said here...the Bible tells us that Jesus understands what we are going through, because He himself felt the pain of tempation:

Hbr 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

If He was completely incapable of sinning, His temptation would have been a sham and there would be no real "suffering" associated with it. It takes both desire and opportunity to create temptation. To really feel temptation, you have to be presented with something that you have a desire for on some level and you have to know that you could yield to that desire. The pain of temptation is that you can't do what part of you REALLY wants to do...you have to deny yourself. If I don't do something because it's totally outside my capacity, that's not self-denial, that's just following my own nature. But if I feel drawn toward something sinful that I could do and want to do, that is temptation.

Hootmon

November 17th, 2003, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by Jael
Hbr 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. :thumb

Jesus OVERCAME Temptation. He wasnt IMMUNE to Temptation.

Xtreme

November 17th, 2003, 01:01 PM

in regards to temptation and Jesus having the ability to sin...

what is temptation?

is it the point at which a course of action is available and we decide whether or not to pursue it?

or

is it the point at which a course of action is available AND desired?

i know that Jesus was tempted by satan... but did he ever desire the things that satan had to offer?

it seems that in order to be tempted as we are tempted one must have a longing or some desire to do/have something.

Matthew 4

The Temptation of Jesus

1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.

2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.

3 The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."

4 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'[1] "

5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.

6 "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:
" 'He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'[2] "

7 Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'[3] "

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.

9 "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."

10 Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'[4] "

11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

Temptation

(1.) Trial; a being put to the test. Thus God "tempted [Gen. 22: 1; R.V., 'did prove'] Abraham;" and afflictions are said to tempt, i.e., to try, men (James 1:2, 12; comp. Deut. 8:2), putting their faith and patience to the test.

(2.)
Ordinarily, however, the word means solicitation to that which is evil, and hence Satan is called "the tempter" (Matt. 4:3). Our Lord was in this way tempted in the wilderness. That temptation was not internal, but by a real, active, subtle being. It was not self-sought. It was submitted to as an act of obedience on his part. "Christ was led, driven. An unseen personal force bore
him a certain violence is implied in the words" (Matt. 4:1-11). The scene of the temptation of our Lord is generally supposed to have been the mountain of Quarantania (q.v.), "a high and precipitous wall of rock, 1,200 or 1,500 feet above the plain west of Jordan, near Jericho." Temptation is common to all (Dan. 12:10; Zech. 13:9; Ps. 66:10; Luke 22:31, 40; Heb. 11:17; James 1:12; 1
Pet. 1:7; 4:12). We read of the temptation of Joseph (Gen. 39), of David (2 Sam. 24; 1 Chr. 21), of Hezekiah (2 Chr. 32:31), of Daniel (Dan. 6), etc. So long as we are in this world we are exposed to temptations, and need ever to be on our watch against them.

Source: Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary

Notice this definition states that it wasn't self sought. If I, as a sinful man, see a woman... and deep down as a man I desire to have her, yet I do not - I was tempted and denied the temptation. But the truth is my flesh wanted her.

[disclaimer: scenario used merely as example, not a real life experience... :wacko ]

So... did Jesus WANT the things presented to him by satan? I don't think so. Did Jesus lust after a woman? I don't think so. Did ever a sinful thought enter his mind? Of course not otherwise he wouldn't be perfect!

Jesus himself said that even by lusting after a woman in our heart we have sinned - regardless of whether we act on it or not.

Ok so what do y'all think? Was Jesus' temptation the same as ours? Or do we simply allow the temptation to go 1 step further by entertaining the idea and thus sinning?

ybic,

mike

Jael

November 17th, 2003, 01:19 PM

Notice this definition states that it wasn't self sought. If I, as a sinful man, see a woman... and deep down as a man I desire to have her, yet I do not - I was tempted and denied the temptation. But the truth is my flesh wanted her.

I don't think it was any different for Jesus...after 40 days of fasting, I'm sure Jesus was hungry and His flesh probably thought turning the stones into bread was a GREAT idea! Yes, I think He really wanted to eat at that point and He had to deny the demands of His own flesh to resist Satan's temptation. Remember, the scripture says Jesus SUFFERED temptation...there is no suffering involved if someone tries to tempt you with something you have no desire for...if someone offered me a vial of crack, there would no pain at all involved in me telling them to get lost...I have NO desire for that. I really couldn't take any credit for having "resisted" that temptation, it's no great achievement to turn down something you don't want. Do you really think Jesus was never attracted to woman and never experienced sexual temptation?

Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

"all points" covers everything...there's nothing we face that He didn't overcome on our behalf.

Hootmon

November 17th, 2003, 01:21 PM

You dont think that Jesus wanted bread after 40 days of fasting?

Or that he didnt 'want' the world delivered to him without having to suffer on the Cross?

They both seem like legitimate Temptations to me. It was Jesus' response to those Temptations that is important.

LaMontre

November 17th, 2003, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by Xtreme
in regards to temptation and Jesus having the ability to sin...

what is temptation?

is it the point at which a course of action is available and we decide whether or not to pursue it?

or

is it the point at which a course of action is available AND desired?

i know that Jesus was tempted by satan... but did he ever desire the things that satan had to offer?

it seems that in order to be tempted as we are tempted one must have a longing or some desire to do/have something.

Notice this definition states that it wasn't self sought. If I, as a sinful man, see a woman... and deep down as a man I desire to have her, yet I do not - I was tempted and denied the temptation. But the truth is my flesh wanted her.

[disclaimer: scenario used merely as example, not a real life experience... :wacko ]

So... did Jesus WANT the things presented to him by satan? I don't think so. Did Jesus lust after a woman? I don't think so. Did ever a sinful thought enter his mind? Of course not otherwise he wouldn't be perfect!

Jesus himself said that even by lusting after a woman in our heart we have sinned - regardless of whether we act on it or not.

Ok so what do y'all think? Was Jesus' temptation the same as ours? Or do we simply allow the temptation to go 1 step further by entertaining the idea and thus sinning?

ybic,

mike

Thank you Mike, I have been called to the carpet on this issue today. That clarifies things nicely. Great post.

Xtreme

November 17th, 2003, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by Jael
Do you really think Jesus was never attracted to woman and never experienced sexual temptation?

Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

"all points" covers everything...there's nothing we face that He didn't overcome on our behalf.

i'm unsure to be honest. i just can't fathom Jesus being sexualy attracted to a woman!!! that is blasphemous! and disgusting. He is God.

do you think Jesus looked at a woman and thought, "Wow I'd like to get some of that!" but just didn't act on it? i don't think so. Jesus didnt' lust after a woman... he didn't envision himself making love and desiring it - he couldn't have or else he would have sinned!

hypothetical situation:

i put a gun to your head and tell you at the count of 3 i'm going to pull the trigger and send you into the afterlife.

you, on the other hand, have been told by God that this would happen and that he would deliver you by jamming the weapon.

you have faith that this will happen -> great faith at that! can you measure the faith that Jesus had? i say you can't. so if one has that great of faith that even the most vile temptations can be shrugged off by sheer will power, is it the same as how we feel?

i don't think we'll know until we can ask Him ourselves.

this much is true: Jesus was tempted with food and with riches becuase the Bible tells us so. and i'm sure he was hungry... but he was fasting! not shipwrecked on desert island. he deprived himself in obedience to God and his desire was to do His will, not to allow the flesh to think evil thoughts.

:wacko :twitch

good debate though... i'm enjoying it and learning from it!

ybic,

mike

LaMontre

November 17th, 2003, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by Xtreme
i'm unsure to be honest. i just can't fathom Jesus being sexualy attracted to a woman!!! that is blasphemous! and disgusting. He is God.

do you think Jesus looked at a woman and thought, "Wow I'd like to get some of that!" but just didn't act on it? i don't think so. Jesus didnt' lust after a woman... he didn't envision himself making love and desiring it - he couldn't have or else he would have sinned!

hypothetical situation:

i put a gun to your head and tell you at the count of 3 i'm going to pull the trigger and send you into the afterlife.

you, on the other hand, have been told by God that this would happen and that he would deliver you by jamming the weapon.

you have faith that this will happen -> great faith at that! can you measure the faith that Jesus had? i say you can't. so if one has that great of faith that even the most vile temptations can be shrugged off by sheer will power, is it the same as how we feel?

i don't think we'll know until we can ask Him ourselves.

this much is true: Jesus was tempted with food and with riches becuase the Bible tells us so. and i'm sure he was hungry... but he was fasting! not shipwrecked on desert island. he deprived himself in obedience to God and his desire was to do His will, not to allow the flesh to think evil thoughts.

:wacko :twitch

good debate though... i'm enjoying it and learning from it!

ybic,

mike

Amen brother.........keep preachin it..........

Jesus could not possibly have failed His mission and He could not have possibly had the sin nature passed on to mankind through Adam.

I mean, anyone could have been the Messiah in that case?

And Jesus was just a man who became God?

Do you know I was accused of touting catholic doctrine with this same belief (just a few minutes ago on another thread) just because catholics say that Mary could not have carried Christ if she had a sin nature?? Which is just another catholic corruption of a biblical doctrine.

Jael

November 17th, 2003, 02:59 PM

do you think Jesus looked at a woman and thought, "Wow I'd like to get some of that!" but just didn't act on it? i don't think so. Jesus didnt' lust after a woman... he didn't envision himself making love and desiring it - he couldn't have or else he would have sinned!

Whoa, there buddy...I didn't say that! :): There is a difference between attraction ("Wow, she's pretty") and lusting ("Wow I'd like to get some of that!") Jesus was and is sinless, so He never committed adultery in the flesh or in His heart...but since He was fully human and the Bible tells us He experienced the full range of temptation that we encounter, I'm pretty sure He experienced sexual temptation also. You just can't get away from what the Bible says - tempted in ALL POINTS remember? When Jesus agreed to take on a human body, He took on all of it's weaknesses too. He got tired and hungry, cold and sleepy...His body did everything yours does. He really was fully human, in addition to being fully God.

The temptation is not the sin, it's what you DO with the temptation that counts. As you said, if you dwell on your sinful desire and embrace it and envision yourself giving into it, you have already sinned and you need to repent. Jesus was tempted, but He never sinned. In EVERY case, Jesus denied Himself, resisted the devil, mortified His flesh, and obeyed God. But scripture makes it clear that He was victorious OVER temptation, He wasn't exempted from it. It is a good discussion, good topic you started. :):

Hbr 2:16 For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham.

Hbr 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Hbr 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

You just can't get away from what the Bible says...:): Jesus was tempted "like as we are"...not with some special, "in name only" kind of temptation, but just as we are...

Xtreme

November 17th, 2003, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by LaMontre
Jesus could not possibly have failed His mission and He could not have possibly had the sin nature passed on to mankind through Adam.

I mean, anyone could have been the Messiah in that case?

And Jesus was just a man who became God?

Do you know I was accused of touting catholic doctrine with this same belief (just a few minutes ago on another thread) just because catholics say that Mary could not have carried Christ if she had a sin nature?? Which is just another catholic corruption of a biblical doctrine.

i agree with you. the sin nature was absent from Jesus. if he was inundated with sinful thoughts as we are then he wouldn't have been who he was.

i don't consider it "cheating" either... after all, he IS God! the Bible says that no man is just and that our works are as filthy rags... the same can't be said about Jesus.

Hootmon

November 17th, 2003, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by Xtreme
i agree with you. the sin nature was absent from Jesus. if he was inundated with sinful thoughts as we are then he wouldn't have been who he was. You basically have to ignore the scriptures that Jael just posted to hold that view. How do you, and LaMontre, explain them?

Jesus was fully human. Just like the rest of us. He was NOT immune to Temptation.

He was also fully God. This is what allowed him to resist that Temptation and therefore be Sinless.

blitzkreig

November 17th, 2003, 04:40 PM

Jesus did not have the "sinful nature" taint (original sin) which was handed down from Adam. He was as Adam was before the fall. Yes He was fully human. But He was the "Last Adam"... but in a way a "First".

He was tempted (solicited) but did not sin. He past the obedience test where Adam had failed.

He was fully God as well but He wouldn't have been "tempted as we are" if He relied on that to reject the sin...

Xtreme

November 17th, 2003, 05:54 PM

it's confusing to say the least. i don't disagree with you hootman... but i guess there's a line drawn somewhere. if i were to look at a woman and suddenly a lust draws up within me and i contemplate whether or not to do something sinful - i've already sinned. where does it end? to what degree did these thoughts come into play when it comes to Jesus?

LaMontre

November 17th, 2003, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by Jael
Hbr 2:16 For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham.

Well lets look at it this way? Did he come from the seed of Joseph??

No. He was born of God and by Mary he was of the seed of Abraham. The sin nature is passed on through the man who was held responsible for the fall.

Hbr 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

This says he was made like his bretheren. That is, born of a woman. And in order to redeem man and not the angels.

Hbr 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Yes he was tempted by Satan. This says nothing of the nature of his flesh. Suffering temptation allows him to understand us. This does not mean that He was sinful in his flesh as we are. He never lusted as we do. From the time of His birth until His reaching the age of accountability, I believe, He could never have sinned.

Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.[/COLOR]

Yes he was tempted, once again "like as" we are. This indicates a similiarity. But no indication that He was tempted by/through the flesh

You just can't get away from what the Bible says...:): Jesus was tempted "like as we are"...not with some special, "in name only" kind of temptation, but just as we are...

I dont believe I am. Just a different interpretation of those scriptures. Pure and simple.

Hootmon

November 18th, 2003, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by LaMontre
The sin nature is passed on through the man who was held responsible for the fall. Is there scripture that clearly state that 'sin nature' is passed down through the Male line?

Jael

November 18th, 2003, 10:34 AM

Yes he was tempted, once again "like as" we are. This indicates a similiarity. But no indication that He was tempted by/through the flesh

The enemy has three things with which to tempt us as we strive to be obedient to God's word:

1Jo 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Eve was presented with all three of these temptations in the garden of Eden, and as we know, she failed...

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food[LUST OF THE FLESH], and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes[LUST OF THE EYES], and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise[PRIDE OF LIFE], she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Jesus faced these same three temptations, and as we know, He was victorious...

Mat 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. [LUST OF THE FLESH]

Satan began with an appeal to the flesh...Jesus was hungry and Satan enticed Him to be controlled by the appetites of His body.

Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Satan dangled in front of Jesus the glory of the world and it's kingdoms... [LUST OF THE EYES]

Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Satan tempted Jesus to presumptuously tempt God in a foolish and prideful display of His power and importance...[PRIDE OF LIFE]

Do you have any scripture to support the idea that Jesus was never tempted in His flesh? After 40 days of fasting and consecration, His Spirit must have been stronger than ever, it was His hungry body that was vulnerable to the temptation to turn stones into bread, this is a fleshly temptation...

Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Since the account of Jesus' temptation shows that he overcame the same range of temptations that are common to man...I am persuaded to believe that when the Bible says He was tempted IN ALL POINTS, just as we are, it means exactly that.

Hootmon

November 18th, 2003, 10:41 AM

Good Post, Jael! :thumb

LaMontre

November 18th, 2003, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by Hootmon
Is there scripture that clearly state that 'sin nature' is passed down through the Male line?

Actually, yes there is, but I think that we might be arguing from two differing terminologies here, in a way?

Really, instead of making this a physiological argument lets just simply say this, "Jesus never had a problem with sins of the flesh". Now we might argue over why that was? But I really think that is all I would want to the conclusion to be. He hungered. However hunger is not a sin nor is temptation.

This would also have been the difference between what happened in the garden and the way Jesus was tempted. It took an outside influence to initiate any sort of temptation at all.

Jesus was angry, but never sinned, He thirsted, but didn't drink, He desired, but His desire was for His mission. I think really this would be the point of my argument here.

Now as for why that was? I believe, I have lined these reasons out in the scriptures. You might disagree with my conclusions, but I'm not sure that really matters anyway?

As for your question, I believe this scripture relates.......

Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Again, this can be argued, but the fact is, in Christ, this is a part of the curse that is broken. So I guess really this whole discussion boils down to semantics. I think we could all agree that Christ never lusted, never hated nor any of those things that might lead to sin. Not even from the moment of His birth. We might argue that point till Jesus returns though because there are very few records of His early life. I simply base that on the fact that He was fully man and yet fully God.

LaMontre

November 18th, 2003, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by Jael
The enemy has three things with which to tempt us as we strive to be obedient to God's word:

1Jo 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Eve was presented with all three of these temptations in the garden of Eden, and as we know, she failed...

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food[LUST OF THE FLESH], and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes[LUST OF THE EYES], and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise[PRIDE OF LIFE], she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Jesus faced these same three temptations, and as we know, He was victorious...

Mat 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. [LUST OF THE FLESH]

Satan began with an appeal to the flesh...Jesus was hungry and Satan enticed Him to be controlled by the appetites of His body.

Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Satan dangled in front of Jesus the glory of the world and it's kingdoms... [LUST OF THE EYES]

Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Satan tempted Jesus to presumptuously tempt God in a foolish and prideful display of His power and importance...[PRIDE OF LIFE]

Do you have any scripture to support the idea that Jesus was never tempted in His flesh? After 40 days of fasting and consecration, His Spirit must have been stronger than ever, it was His hungry body that was vulnerable to the temptation to turn stones into bread, this is a fleshly temptation...

Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Since the account of Jesus' temptation shows that he overcame the same range of temptations that are common to man...I am persuaded to believe that when the Bible says He was tempted IN ALL POINTS, just as we are, it means exactly that.

I agree with all of this. Except for the ALL ponts. You just listed the three ways he was tempted. Was lusting after a woman listed there? No. And I believe from His birth to His death He never had such problems with the flesh. Now we can argue this point about what "kind" of flesh He had all day but I think the reasons for my believing as I do are related to believing that he was NEVER tempted through the flesh. Hunger is not a sin. There are many thing that our flesh drives us to do which I do not believe Jesus had to deal with. Now that may be just semantics, but I find much in the scriptures to support it as I have listed....(somewhere) on these boards yesterday. Thats really the only conclusion I wanted to get to. The rest is all just interpretational and opinion.

AnotherOldGuy

November 18th, 2003, 10:55 AM

No, he didn't sin. He was never capable of sinning... just as once we're in our resurected bodies we will be unable to sin.

Jesus didn't receive His Glorified Body until after He was resurrected.

The sin nature - which we're born with - is passed down via our father's lineage. Since Jesus had no earthly father, but rather God was his father, he had no link in that regard.

And that comes from which verse?

So he was never born with the ability to sin. It's analagous to someone being born without eyes... he simply is unable to see.

So... Jesus was something less than a real man?

i just can't fathom Jesus being sexualy attracted to a woman!!! that is blasphemous! and disgusting. He is God.

(Heb 4:15) For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

He is God, He was also a real human being. He was NOT some partial man-god hybrid.

Jesus couldn't have sinned because He's God? Then He couldn't have died either - God can't die. Did He really suffer? - God doesn't have physical nerve endings.

he couldn't have or else he would have sinned!

That's a mighty impotent God you have. He would have sinned? If He handled temptation like every other human, maybe. But He didn't. He NEVER gave in to His own will. His will did come at odds with God's, but He always submitted to God.

(Luke 22:42) saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done."

so if one has that great of faith that even the most vile temptations can be shrugged off by sheer will power

Maybe you read a different Bible than me. Jesus didn't "shrug off" anything. He begged God to change the plan. Sweating blood while anticipating what was going to happen is not "shrugging off". His suffering and crucifixion demonstrate His submission to God.

Yes he was tempted by Satan. This says nothing of the nature of his flesh. Suffering temptation allows him to understand us. This does not mean that He was sinful in his flesh as we are.

You're going to have to explain how He was tempted if there was no choice to be made. Suffering from temptation is the inner turmoil about having to make the right choice. If there's no choice to be made - there's no turmoil.

Who has said that He was "sinful in his flesh"? I haven't. We aren't condemned because of our nature, if so Adam was doomed the second he was created. Sin is acting on our nature - our will - instead of God's.

Jael

November 18th, 2003, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by LaMontre
I agree with all of this. Except for the ALL ponts.

So you disagree with Hebrews 4:15?

Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Originally posted by LaMontre
You just listed the three ways he was tempted. Was lusting after a woman listed there? No. And I believe from His birth to His death He never had such problems with the flesh.

I don't believe Jesus ever lusted after a woman either...as this is sin and Jesus was sinless. But I also don't believe that Jesus had some sort of special body that did not produce hormones and had no sexual appetite...the truth is much more wonderful than that. Jesus, the Son of God in the flesh, had His bodily appetites under perfect control. As you said, it's not a sin to be hungry, but it would have been a sin if Jesus had let His physical hunger control Him at Satan's suggestion...in the same way, it's not a sin to have a body that produces testosterone and the accompanying sex drive...it is a sin to allow that appetite to lead you into sexual sin (which includes lust, even if not acted upon). You are suggesting that Jesus' body had no sexual appetite at all? That would make His humanity a sham (not to mention contradicting the scripture that tells us He was tempted IN ALL POINTS).

pilgrimian

November 18th, 2003, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by zion
thanks for that little gem pilgrimian

:nod :D:

You bet! Glad you found it...I'm just now getting back to this thread!

Godspeed,
Matthew

pilgrimian

November 18th, 2003, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by Hootmon
Agreed, but he also 'emptied' himself for his time as a human.

Since the flesh was a normal human, he would necessarily need to 'grow into' his role at least to some degree. Somehow I cant imaging that as an infant he was fully aware of his future adult life.

Its probably safe to say that by age 12, the age when boys were considered 'adult', he was fully aware of his 'assignment'.

A better translation is that He "humbled" Himself. The uncreated went into a created body. Christ was fully God, though He put limits on Himself. As perfect man (though He did have temptation) He would have not understood His mission till later, perhaps. But as fully God He knew. Whew...what an amazing thing!

Godspeed,
Matthew

antsinmypants

November 18th, 2003, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by LaMontre
As for your question, I believe this scripture relates.......

Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

I've been lurking on this.

LaMontre, you're wrong on this point.

The Hebrew word means Fathers/mothers-- including ANCESTORS.. up to the 5th & 6th generation..

The word is

H01 'ab {awb}

1) father of an individual
2) of God as father of his people
3) head or founder of a household, group, family, or clan
4) ancestor
a) grandfather, forefathers -- of person
b) of people
5) originator or patron of a class, profession, or art
6) of producer, generator (fig.)
7) of benevolence and protection (fig.)
8) term of respect and honour
9) ruler or chief (spec.)

This word can be traced to the same as "mothers" up to the 5th and 6th generation.

Not to mention "adam" Means "Man/Mankind".

H0120 'adam {aw-dawm'}

1) man, mankind
a) man, human being
b) man, mankind (much more frequently intended sense in OT)
c) Adam, first man

d) city in Jordan valley

:wave

Hootmon

November 18th, 2003, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by pilgrimian
A better translation is that He "humbled" Himself. The uncreated went into a created body. Christ was fully God, though He put limits on Himself. As perfect man (though He did have temptation) He would have not understood His mission till later, perhaps. But as fully God He knew. Whew...what an amazing thing! It seems to be both... Phi 2:7 But235 made himself of no reputation,2758, 1438 and took2983 upon him the form3444 of a servant,1401 and was made1096 in1722 the likeness3667 of men:444

G2758
κενόω
kenoō
ken-o'-o
From G2756; to make empty, that is, (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify: - make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain.

Phi 2:8 And2532 being found2147 in fashion4976 as5613 a man,444 he humbled5013 himself,1438 and became1096 obedient5255 unto3360 death,2288 even1161 the death2288 of the cross.4716

G5013
ταπεινόω
tapeinoō
tap-i-no'-o
From G5011; to depress; figuratively to humiliate (in condition or heart): - abase, bring low, humble (self). Interesting translations going on here... Philippians 2 (NASB)
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Philippians 2 (YLT)
6 who, being in the form of God, thought [it] not robbery to be equal to God,
7 but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,
8 and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross, Related verse... 2 Corinthians 8:9
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich.

pilgrimian

November 18th, 2003, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by Hootmon
It seems to be both... Interesting translations going on here... Related verse...

There we go! Context, context, context!

Amen!

LaMontre

November 18th, 2003, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by Jael
So you disagree with Hebrews 4:15?

Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Ah ah ah.....I disagree withouyr interpretation of "All points"

I don't believe Jesus ever lusted after a woman either...as this is sin and Jesus was sinless.

This is really all I am saying. So you cannot say he was "tempted in ALL points as we are" can you? "Like as" we are? Yes.

But I also don't believe that Jesus had some sort of special body that did not produce hormones and had no sexual appetite...the truth is much more wonderful than that. Jesus, the Son of God in the flesh, had His bodily appetites under perfect control.

Were you born of God? Or were you, as the scripture says, born of the seed of your Father? Jesus had no earthly Father.

As you said, it's not a sin to be hungry, but it would have been a sin if Jesus had let His physical hunger control Him at Satan's suggestion...in the same way, it's not a sin to have a body that produces testosterone and the accompanying sex drive...it is a sin to allow that appetite to lead you into sexual sin (which includes lust, even if not acted upon). You are suggesting that Jesus' body had no sexual appetite at all? That would make His humanity a sham (not to mention contradicting the scripture that tells us He was tempted IN ALL POINTS).

Actually I am suggesting He had no lust. Is sexual appetite the same as lust? These things have to be defined carefully. I mean a homosexual will not call his a sin of lust. Because he defines love differently. See what I mean?

In the same way, Jesus did not deal with internal temtations which we might deal with. I mean you cannot be "tempted to lust". Because once you are temted to lust you have already lusted. Right?

Just an interpretational view that i have which I believe carries some truth. I mean we can argue all day about these things.

LaMontre

November 18th, 2003, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by antsinmypants
I've been lurking on this.

LaMontre, you're wrong on this point.

The Hebrew word means Fathers/mothers-- including ANCESTORS.. up to the 5th & 6th generation..

The word is

H01 'ab {awb}

1) father of an individual
2) of God as father of his people
3) head or founder of a household, group, family, or clan
4) ancestor
a) grandfather, forefathers -- of person
b) of people
5) originator or patron of a class, profession, or art
6) of producer, generator (fig.)
7) of benevolence and protection (fig.)
8) term of respect and honour
9) ruler or chief (spec.)

This word can be traced to the same as "mothers" up to the 5th and 6th generation.

Not to mention "adam" Means "Man/Mankind".

H0120 'adam {aw-dawm'}

1) man, mankind
a) man, human being
b) man, mankind (much more frequently intended sense in OT)
c) Adam, first man

d) city in Jordan valley

:wave

Yes, but I am not sure I agree with the "mothers" portion of this??

I dont see that listed in your list at all?? Perhaps in a contextual sense it might be translated elsewhere that way?

Hootmon

November 18th, 2003, 02:21 PM

Heb 4:15 For1063 we have2192 not3756 a high priest749 which cannot1410, 3361 be touched with the feeling of4834 our2257 infirmities;769 but1161 was in2596 all points3956 tempted3985 like as2596, 3665 we are, yet without5565 sin.266

G3956
πᾶς
pas
pas
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

G3985
πειράζω
peirazō
pi-rad'-zo
From G3984; to test (objectively), that is, endeavor, scrutinize, entice, discipline: - assay, examine, go about, prove, tempt (-er), try.

LaMontre

November 18th, 2003, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by Hootmon
Heb 4:15 For1063 we have2192 not3756 a high priest749 which cannot1410, 3361 be touched with the feeling of4834 our2257 infirmities;769 but1161 was in2596 all points3956 tempted3985 like as2596, 3665 we are, yet without5565 sin.266

G3956
πᾶς
pas
pas
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

G3985
πειράζω
peirazō
pi-rad'-zo
From G3984; to test (objectively), that is, endeavor, scrutinize, entice, discipline: - assay, examine, go about, prove, tempt (-er), try.

13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Like;
2596 kata {kat-ah'}

a primary particle;; prep

AV - according to 107, after 61, against 58, in 36, by 27,
daily + 2250 15, as 11, misc 165; 480

1) down from, through out
2) according to, toward, along

As;
3665 homoiotes {hom-oy-ot'-ace}

from 3664; TDNT - 5:189,684; n f

AV - like as + 2596 1, similitude 1; 2

1) likeness

This is my point.

Hootmon

November 18th, 2003, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by LaMontre
This is my point. Your point is that it only seemed like Jesus was being tempted?

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

What does 'like as' mean in this verse, specifically? He was 'touched by the feeling our Infirmities'. In other words, He experienced them personally!

Please stop trying to make Jesus inhuman. It diminishes his sacrifice.

He was both God AND Human, with both natures intact and complete.

blitzkreig

November 18th, 2003, 05:00 PM

1Co 15:45-47
(45) So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
(46) However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
(47) The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.

Adam was born without sin. He was "God inclined" and pure. Since sin entered, Adam and all mankind is "inclined to sin". I could quote verses but I think you all know that.

Jesus was born "THE LAST ADAM". Born as Adam was BEFORE sin entered the world. NOT included to sin. The curse was broken. Pure human yes but pure human before sin.

Jesus was temped just like us. Exactly like us. Again lots of verses to support that.

LaMontre

November 18th, 2003, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by blitzkreig
1Co 15:45-47
(45) So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
(46) However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
(47) The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.

Adam was born without sin. He was "God inclined" and pure. Since sin entered, Adam and all mankind is "inclined to sin". I could quote verses but I think you all know that.

Jesus was born "THE LAST ADAM". Born as Adam was BEFORE sin entered the world. NOT included to sin. The curse was broken. Pure human yes but pure human before sin.

Jesus was temped just like us. Exactly like us. Again lots of verses to support that.

Now this I agree with.

It is the limitations that must be placed on the "like as" statement as well as the "temptations" which I am illuding to.

He did not struggle with "sexual sins". I find nothing like that stated in the scriptures. There is much that we sturggle with that I believe Jesus did not. This is really my only point in this whole thing. Now the why's and so forth well, we can agree to disagree I suppose.

AnotherOldGuy

November 18th, 2003, 05:23 PM

The curse was broken.

Not exactly. The curse still exists. But an antidote was given.

Pure human yes but pure human before sin.

A distinction that does not need to be made - other than an intact relationship with God.

blitzkreig

November 18th, 2003, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by LaMontre
There is much that we sturggle with that I believe Jesus did not. This is really my only point in this whole thing. Now the why's and so forth well, we can agree to disagree I suppose. There is also much that he struggled with that we do not. "Like" is a relative term.

blitzkreig

November 18th, 2003, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by AnotherOldGuy
Not exactly. The curse still exists. But an antidote was given. The curse that was broken was the curse of the Law.

AnotherOldGuy

November 18th, 2003, 05:27 PM

Ah - a change of venue.

He did not struggle with "sexual sins". I find nothing like that stated in the scriptures.

Where in scripture do you see that He did not struggle with "sexual sins"? Why would that be different than any other kind of sin?

Just because there is no verse that says "Jesus struggled with sexual sin" you think He didn't?

Interesting point - Did Jesus ever have need of a rest room? It doesn't say so in scripture.

blitzkreig

November 18th, 2003, 05:29 PM

I can look up a couple verses that said He "rested"...

AnotherOldGuy

November 18th, 2003, 05:33 PM

The curse that was broken was the curse of the Law.

And those without Christ are still under the Law.

(1 Tim 1:9) We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,

However:

(Gal 3:25) Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

(Gal 5:18) But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

blitzkreig

November 18th, 2003, 05:34 PM

Exactly. :thumb

Jael

November 18th, 2003, 05:36 PM

He did not struggle with "sexual sins". I find nothing like that stated in the scriptures.

No, He didn't...and you will not find such a statement in any of my posts either. What the scriptures do say, is that He was tempted in all points, but sinned in none. When you claim that Jesus never experienced sexual temptation, you are adding an exclusion that isn't in the scriptures. Jesus had a normal, functioning human body...with all of the bio-chemistry that comes with it. But He submitted to the will of God in everything and He was never controlled by His appetites or desires. He didn't have some sort of pseudo-human body that only looked human but didn't work the way our bodies do...

Hbr 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

The whole point of these passages is that we needn't fear to bring our struggles and temptations to the feet of Jesus because He personally experienced temptation and knows what we are going through. He felt the pain of having to deny Himself in every way, and that makes Him a very merciful High Priest and intercessor for us.

I can look up a couple verses that said He "rested"...

Blitz! :spit :lol

LaMontre

November 18th, 2003, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by AnotherOldGuy
Ah - a change of venue.

Not really, I have just been giving some of what I feel are the scriptural reasons why Jesus never struggled much of what we struggle with.

Where in scripture do you see that He did not struggle with "sexual sins"? Why would that be different than any other kind of sin?

Because all his temptations are listed in scripture. That one is not.

Just because there is no verse that says "Jesus struggled with sexual sin" you think He didn't?

Interesting point - Did Jesus ever have need of a rest room? It doesn't say so in scripture.

Good point. Not sure it proves anything though.

AnotherOldGuy

November 18th, 2003, 05:41 PM

Jael - :clap :thumb

LaMontre

November 18th, 2003, 05:41 PM

Originally posted by Jael
No, He didn't...and you will not find such a statement in any of my posts either. What the scriptures do say, is that He was tempted in all points, but sinned in none. When you claim that Jesus never experienced sexual temptation, you are adding an exclusion that isn't in the scriptures. Jesus had a normal, functioning human body...with all of the bio-chemistry that comes with it. But He submitted to the will of God in everything and He was never controlled by His appetites or desires. He didn't have some sort of pseudo-human body that only looked human but didn't work the way our bodies do...

I never said he had some kind of "psudo-human" body either. He was human. I am not disputing that fact in the least.

The whole point of these passages is that we needn't fear to bring our struggles and temptations to the feet of Jesus because He personally experienced temptation and knows what we are going through. He felt the pain of having to deny Himself in every way, and that makes Him a very merciful High Priest and intercessor for us.

I agree. Where we might part ways is the "every way" aspect. But it really doesn't matter. Just an interpretational difference is all this is. Not even really a salvation issue.

AnotherOldGuy

November 18th, 2003, 05:43 PM

Because all his temptations are listed in scripture. That one is not.

Why would you think that ALL of his temptations are listed in scripture?

Thirty + years in only four books. Don't you think that something didn't get written down?

LaMontre

November 18th, 2003, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by AnotherOldGuy
Why would you think that ALL of his temptations are listed in scripture?

Thirty + years in only four books. Don't you think that something didn't get written down?

Look, thats the point I am making here about this being a really silly issue to argue over. It's interpretational. If you wish to believe that Jesus lusted after women and so forth, thats fine with me. I just happen to disagree.

Jael

November 18th, 2003, 05:54 PM

Because all his temptations are listed in scripture. That one is not.

So you believe that one encounter with Satan was all the temptation that Jesus ever suffered in His entire lifetime? When Satan finished with Him that day, he didn't leave forever, only for a time...

Luk 4:13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.

Scripture couldn't possibly list all of the individual temptations that Jesus faced in His entire life, so the Bible sums it up in that verse that you sort of don't like...tempted in all points, just like us. Earlier you asked "So you cannot say he was "tempted in ALL points as we are" can you?" Well, since the Bible says it, yes, we can say it with perfect confidence.

Jesus experienced all of the everyday temptations that we face. I'm sure as a teenager, Jesus was tempted to be disobedient sometimes. I'm sure there were days when He was tired and irritable and felt tempted to snap at someone. Jesus didn't float 10 feet off the ground, He lived here among us, in this very difficult world. As a human being. And the Bible tells us that all the books in the world could not contain the full story of everything Jesus said and did.

LaMontre

November 18th, 2003, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by Jael
So you believe that one encounter with Satan was all the temptation that Jesus ever suffered in His entire lifetime? When Satan finished with Him that day, he didn't leave forever, only for a time...

Did I say that? No. I said all His temptations are listed in scripture. That is the truth.

Luk 4:13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.

Scripture couldn't possibly list all of the individual temptations that Jesus faced in His entire life, so the Bible sums it up in that verse that you sort of don't like...tempted in all points, just like us. Earlier you asked "So you cannot say he was "tempted in ALL points as we are" can you?" Well, since the Bible says it, yes, we can say it with perfect confidence.

Jesus experienced all of the everyday temptations that we face. I'm sure as a teenager, Jesus was tempted to be disobedient sometimes. I'm sure there were days when He was tired and irritable and felt tempted to snap at someone. Jesus didn't float 10 feet off the ground, He lived here among us, in this very difficult world. As a human being. And the Bible tells us that all the books in the world could not contain the full story of everything Jesus said and did.

Thats fine. Believe if you like that Jesus struggled with sexual sins and the like. I have no problem with that. I simply do not believe that. Thats all.

AnotherOldGuy

November 18th, 2003, 06:14 PM

Look, thats the point I am making here about this being a really silly issue to argue over. It's interpretational.

Interpretational is when you discuss the meaning of scripture. Let's see the scripture that says that Jesus didn't struggle with sexual sin and we discuss the interpretation.

If you wish to believe that Jesus lusted after women and so forth, thats fine with me. I just happen to disagree.

I don't think that anybody has said that Jesus lusted after women. Lusting is a sin - Jesus said so. But there is a point just before lust that all men (well, most men) have to pull the reigns in. The hormones get going and you have to consciously regain control.

Jesus' teenage years aren't even mentioned in scripture. Do you honestly think that He was not a normal young man?

(Rom 8:3) For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,

How did He do that? By hiding from certain sins? Avoiding them? Or by facing them squarely and overcoming them?

LaMontre

November 18th, 2003, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by AnotherOldGuy
Interpretational is when you discuss the meaning of scripture. Let's see the scripture that says that Jesus didn't struggle with sexual sin and we discuss the interpretation.

Well, if it were as clearly stated as this we wouldn't be here discussing this at all would we?

I don't think that anybody has said that Jesus lusted after women. Lusting is a sin - Jesus said so. But there is a point just before lust that all men (well, most men) have to pull the reigns in. The hormones get going and you have to consciously regain control.

Thats true. But Jesus said if you lust after w woman you have already commited adultry. Do you think this would not apply to fornication as well? Lust is not something we can really control per-say. Only be forgiven for. I mean, have you ever simply looked at a woman and caught yourself? I know I have. You think Jesus ever did?

Jesus' teenage years aren't even mentioned in scripture. Do you honestly think that He was not a normal young man?

Depends on whos definition of "normal" your using.

(Rom 8:3) For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,

How did He do that? By hiding from certain sins? Avoiding them? Or by facing them squarely and overcoming them?

He did that on the cross.

AnotherOldGuy

November 18th, 2003, 07:03 PM

I mean, have you ever simply looked at a woman and caught yourself?

Looking at a woman is not a sin. Are you saying that God made them pretty to trap us?

Do you think this would not apply to fornication as well?

Yes.

Lust is not something we can really control per-say.

Sure it is.

I mean, have you ever simply looked at a woman and caught yourself? I know I have. You think Jesus ever did?

Jesus was a real human being. A MAN. Yes, He looked. THAT is not a sin. I've even done it without catching myself, or ignoring the catch. Jesus never missed that catch.

Depends on whos definition of "normal" your using.

Was Jesus a real human being?

He did that on the cross.

Yes, after overcoming multitudes of temptations. He remained pure even after facing the same things we do. Actually His Resurrection validated his sacrifice on the cross. God raised Him from the dead because He was an (the) acceptable sacrifice. No temptation overcame Him. I don't know why you think that Heb. 4:15 is in error. I am quite positive that Jesus overcame temptation such that you will never see.

(Heb 4:15) For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

I said all His temptations are listed in scripture. That is the truth.

You are mistaken. Look at the passage in Luke

(Luke 4:1) Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

(Luke 4:2) being tempted for forty days by the devil. And in those days He ate nothing, and afterward, when they had ended, He was hungry.

Three of the temptations as given by Luke:

(Luke 4:3) And the devil said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread."

(Luke 4:7) "Therefore, if You will worship before me, all will be Yours."

(Luke 4:9-11) Then he brought Him to Jerusalem, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down from here. "For it is written: 'He shall give His angels charge over you, To keep you,' "and, 'In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.'"

Are you implying that it took 40 days for Satan to pose 3 temptations? Is he that slow?

(Luke 4:13) Now when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from Him until an opportune time.

"Every temptation" not 'these 3 temptations'. There were others. The three listed appear to be the last three.

LaMontre

November 18th, 2003, 07:45 PM

Originally posted by AnotherOldGuy
Looking at a woman is not a sin. Are you saying that God made them pretty to trap us?

Do you just enjoy dodging my questions or what?

Jesus was a real human being. A MAN. Yes, He looked. THAT is not a sin. I've even done it without catching myself, or ignoring the catch. Jesus never missed that catch.

Well, Im not sure your willing to commit here? But if your saying Jesus looked at a woman and lusted after her? I'd say, "Thats your opinion and your welcome to it."

Was Jesus a real human being?

Loaded question. And not specific enough to even be answered. Of course He was a real human being. Thats not the issue and you know it. Stop dodging the issue.

Yes, after overcoming multitudes of temptations. He remained pure even after facing the same things we do. Actually His Resurrection validated his sacrifice on the cross. God raised Him from the dead because He was an (the) acceptable sacrifice. No temptation overcame Him. I don't know why you think that Heb. 4:15 is in error. I am quite positive that Jesus overcame temptation such that you will never see.

I have proposed no scriptural error. Now your just reaching.

(Luke 4:1) Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

(Luke 4:2) being tempted for forty days by the devil. And in those days He ate nothing, and afterward, when they had ended, He was hungry.

Three of the temptations as given by Luke:

(Luke 4:3) And the devil said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread."

(Luke 4:7) "Therefore, if You will worship before me, all will be Yours."

(Luke 4:9-11) Then he brought Him to Jerusalem, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down from here. "For it is written: 'He shall give His angels charge over you, To keep you,' "and, 'In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.'"

Are you implying that it took 40 days for Satan to pose 3 temptations? Is he that slow?

(Luke 4:13) Now when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from Him until an opportune time.

"Every temptation" not 'these 3 temptations'. There were others. The three listed appear to be the last three.

I dont have any idea what your talking about now??

But, lets look at it from this perspective........

1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

This is "all that is in the world". In other words, and I think there is some consensus on this, this is what every single temptation and sin has at it's core.

Now we could say that if Jesus experinced it in one way, He experienced it in every way. Just as when Eve was decieved, she experienced the same things. Now, would you have to experience sexual temptation in order to experience the lust of the flesh?

I have not posed this yet because I felt that it was far too restrictive on Jesus experience of temptation. But I think it does apply here. He did NOT HAVE to experience sexual sin in order to understand how we do. Not at all.

I believe He did not experience directly MANY aspects of what we experience. Simply because there was no need for Him to.

Hootmon

November 18th, 2003, 07:49 PM

:tape

LaMontre

November 18th, 2003, 08:14 PM

Well, look I have seen the other perspective and understand the problems those posting them have with mine. I am calling it quits at this point and hope this hasn't caused too much of a problem. I initially posted this topic as a simple addition to another. I never expected a 15 round boxing match and I certainly never intend any heresy. I just have a perspective on this that I feel is valid. But at this point I am willing to agree to disagree.

AnotherOldGuy

November 18th, 2003, 09:16 PM

Do you just enjoy dodging my questions or what?

Are we speaking the same language?

But if your saying Jesus looked at a woman and lusted after her? I'd say, "Thats your opinion and your welcome to it."

Please show me where I said that Jesus lusted after anyone. Do you think that Jesus walked around with His eyes closed 'cause He might see something?

Loaded question. And not specific enough to even be answered. Of course He was a real human being. Thats not the issue and you know it. Stop dodging the issue.

Loaded question? Who's dodging? Was Jesus a real human being?

I have proposed no scriptural error. Now your just reaching.

Does Heb. 4:15 mean what it says?

"I agree with all of this. Except for the ALL ponts. You just listed the three ways he was tempted. Was lusting after a woman listed there? "

"Ah ah ah.....I disagree withouyr interpretation of "All points" "

You did write those didn't you?

The "all points" is not an interpretation - it's a direct quote from the verse.

(Heb 4:15) For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Now, would you have to experience sexual temptation in order to experience the lust of the flesh?

At some level, internal or external, the temptation comes first.

He did NOT HAVE to experience sexual sin in order to understand how we do.

He did not experience any kind of sin. He did experience the temptation.

You do realize that being tempted is not a sin.

I believe He did not experience directly MANY aspects of what we experience. Simply because there was no need for Him to.

We're not talking about "MANY aspects of what we experience". We're talking about temptation.

(Heb 4:15) For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Is this verse accurate?

LaMontre

November 18th, 2003, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by AnotherOldGuy
skipped

I sent you a PM on this bro......

MikeJ

November 19th, 2003, 02:17 AM

According to the Book of Hebrews He knew, at least in His spirit, who He was and what His mission was at His incarnation (conception). It's incredible but the Lord was actually communing with the Father at this time. Another interesting example related to this is when John the Baptist, while still in his Mother's womb reacted with movement when Mary (while carrying Messiah) visited Elizabeth. IMO, John's spirit knew that his God was present.

Heb 10:5-10, Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me. "In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure. "Then I said, 'Behold, I have come in the volume of the book it is written of Me to do Your will, O God.'" Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law), then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Lonewolf7

November 20th, 2003, 01:29 AM

Originally posted by Xtreme
Not much is mentioned of Jesus' childhood. And I wonder when He came to know who He was. Certainly as an infant he couldn't have known - or could he? Was he aware? His intelligence was surely phenominal - the most intelligent man ever to live I'm sure.

This is what I want to ask Him. How was it growing up? Did you know?

Any thoughts?

Jesus Christ IS GOD......the creator of 'everything created' knows ALL.......

Sometimes we tend to forget that HE is, was, always will be GOD ......

Jesus Christ.....from the manger...as a baby.... could have snapped His fingers and wasted the known universe.

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.

Colossians 1:19
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

Colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Jesus Christ NEVER had an 'epiphany'.......

Epiphany
A sudden manifestation of the essence or meaning of something

AnotherOldGuy

November 20th, 2003, 01:39 AM

Jesus Christ.....from the manger...as a baby.... could have snapped His fingers and wasted the known universe.

What would make you think that?

zion

November 20th, 2003, 01:53 AM

Jesus Christ IS GOD......the creator of 'everything created' knows ALL.......

Sometimes we tend to forget that HE is, was, always will be GOD ......

:nod

Jesus Christ.....from the manger...as a baby.... could have snapped His fingers and wasted the known universe.

:hrm
Although Jesus Christ was fully divine before and after the incarnation, it is clear that several qualities He possessed before incarnation, were either given up, in order to become a man, or became dormant and were not used.

So. although Jesus was "everywhere" (omnipresent) before incarnation, he was limited to being in one place at one time, when he was a man. Obviously then, omnipresence is not an absolute condition of being God, because the fullness of deity dwelt in Jesus while he walked the earth. (Col 2:9)

Although Jesus was "all knowing" (omniscient) before incarnation, he learned things as he grew from a baby to adulthood, when he was a man. (Lk 2:52) Obviously then, being "all knowing" is not an absolute condition of being God, because the fullness of deity dwelt in Jesus while he walked the earth. (Col 2:9)

Although Jesus was all powerful (omnipotent) before incarnation, he fell beneath the weight of the cross on route to crucifixion. Obviously then, being "all powerful" is not an absolute condition of being God, because the fullness of deity dwelt in Jesus while he walked the earth. (Col 2:9)

Although Jesus was a "spirit" without flesh and bones, before incarnation, he changed and became flesh and bones. Obviously then, being "a spirit" is not an absolute condition of being God, because the fullness of deity dwelt in Jesus while he walked the earth. (Col 2:9)

Although the Bible says God is immutable (unchangeable) this quality refers not to the presence, knowledge, power or ontological make up of God, but his core moral values.

Jesus Christ NEVER had an 'epiphany'.......

Epiphany
A sudden manifestation of the essence or meaning of something
wouldnt that mean that he never learnt anything??

AnotherOldGuy

November 20th, 2003, 02:09 AM

zion - :nod

Jesus Christ.....from the manger...as a baby.... could have snapped His fingers and wasted the known universe.

(John 5:19) Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

(John 5:30) By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

(John 6:38) For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

(John 8:28) So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

(John 14:31) but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me. "Come now; let us leave.

The man Jesus could indeed have zapped the universe - but ONLY if God told Him to.