John Hagee = Confusion

[Geoff274544]

I've read many posts about John Hagee, but I'am left confused. People like him, on the other hands I hear is WOF.

Anyone can clear this up??

[MercifullySaved]

Hagee is known for allowing women to speak from the pulpit, joining his ministry in a pastoral role. My opinion is that this is contrary to Scripture...
I believe he's also the one who says that the Jews don't need Jesus because they already have their method of attaining salvation. :confused

[Morningstarlet]

Originally posted by MercifullySaved
I believe he's also the one who says that the Jews don't need Jesus because they already have their method of attaining salvation. :confused

I've never heard him make a statement like this. Do you have anything to back this up?

[Bondservant]

Salvation Without Conversion?

Hagee is recognized as a fierce foe of anti-Semitism. An outspoken supporter of the Jewish people, Judaism, and the nation Israel, he has been given the “Humanitarian of the Year” award by the San Antonio B’nai B’rith Council. Hagee has also been bestowed the “ZOA Israel Service Award” by the Zionist Organization in Dallas and honored with the “Henrietta Szold Award” by the Texas Southern Region of Hadassah.8

While his bold stance against anti-Semitism is certainly praiseworthy, Hagee’s zealousness for the Jewish people and their cause has led him to commit a most serious doctrinal error — salvation for the Jews without conversion to Christianity. One newspaper account puts it this way:

Trying to convert Jews is a “waste of time,” he [Hagee] said. . . .

Everyone else, whether Buddhist or Baha’i, needs to believe in Jesus, he says. But not Jews. Jews already have a covenant with God that has never been replaced with Christianity, he says.

“The Jewish people have a relationship to God through the law of God as given through Moses,” Hagee said. “I believe that every Gentile person can only come to God through the cross of Christ. I believe that every Jewish person who lives in the light of the Torah, which is the word of God, has a relationship with God and will come to redemption.

“The law of Moses is sufficient enough to bring a person into the knowledge of God until God gives him a greater revelation. And God has not,” said Hagee . . .9

“There are right now Jewish people on this earth who have a powerful and special relationship with God,” declares Hagee in one of his books. “They have been chosen by the ‘election of grace’ in which God does what he does without asking man to approve or understand it. Let us put an end to the Christian chatter that “all the Jews are lost” and can’t be in the will of God until they convert to Christianity! . . . there are a certain number of Jews in relationship with God right now through divine election.” 10

Hagee also affirms: “If God blinded the Jewish people to the identity of Jesus as Messiah, how could He send them to hell for not seeing what he had forbidden them to see?”11 He continues, “All people will gain entrance into heaven through Christ. The question is one of timing.” 12

Such rhetoric raises some thorny questions. When Hagee says “all people will gain entrance into heaven through Christ,” he is either advocating universalism (literally all people — Jewish and Gentile — will be saved), or he believes that all Jews will be saved. In either case, both positions are in serious error, but the latter is more consistent with his other statements.

The “timing” of the salvation of the entire Jewish nation is actually irrelevant to Hagee’s argument since he advocates that it is a waste of time attempting to convert them. At best, then, Hagee implies that even if they are not currently saved, God will save all Jewish keepers of the Law — past, present, and future — at some future point.

The Bible paints a different picture. The apostle Paul demonstrates that Israel had a responsibility to respond to the Gospel, but rejected it. In Romans 10:19-21, he asks, “Did they [the Jews] fail to hear?” The rhetorical answer is “no.” Paul relates that, as light and darkness are understood by all, so the gospel has been made known to all the Jews (cf. Acts 17:6; 21:28). He continues, “Did they fail to understand?” The answer once again is “no.” Since Israel has become disobedient through unbelief (Rom. 11:30), God has delivered the gospel to the Gentiles.13

But God has not entirely rejected Israel — Paul (himself a Jew) is living proof of this (Rom. 11:1). God has preserved a remnant, while the others were hardened as a consequence of their unbelief and trusting in works instead of the righteousness of Christ (Rom. 11:5-7; cf. 9:31-32; 11:20-23). Elsewhere the apostle writes, “. . . by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His [God’s] sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. . . . for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 3:20, 23-24, emphasis added).

To drive the point home, Paul goes on to say, “. . . the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise nullified; . . . it is by faith, that it might be in accordance with grace” (Rom. 4:13-14, 16). Scripture draws no distinction between Jews and Gentiles on the issue of salvation, which is attained by grace through faith alone in Christ, “apart from works of the law” (3:28; cf. vv. 21-22).

Paul recognized that the Jews of his day had a misguided zeal that caused them to stumble on this very point (9:31-32; 10:2-4). Why would he suffer great anguish and wish he were accursed for Israel’s sake if none of them were truly lost? His anguish comes from the realization that many Israelites are not saved (Rom. 9:3, 6, 27; 10:1, 9-15; cf. Acts 2:14, 21, 37-39; Rom. 11:14, 17-23).

The Law, revealed through the Jews, was meant to be “our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor” (Gal. 3:24-25). As the Bible clearly states: “There is neither Jew nor Greek . . . for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise” (vv. 28-29). To be saved, a person — whether Jew or Gentile — must turn to Christ (5:4-6; cf. John 14:6; Acts 4:12; Rom. 10:9-13) who is “the end of the law for righteousness for everyone who believes” (Rom. 10:4). In writing that the “message of the gospel was from Israel, not to Israel,”14 Hagee discourages Christians from sharing the Good News with unsaved Jews who, like everyone else, have need of the gospel if they are to spend eternity with God in heaven.

The Reluctant Messiah

In Hagee’s theology, the Jews can hardly be faulted for not flocking to Christianity since it was supposedly Jesus who declined their request for Him to be their Messiah. “The [Jewish] people wanted Him to be their Messiah, but He absolutely refused,” writes Hagee. “The Jews were not rejecting Jesus as Messiah, it was Jesus who was refusing to be the Messiah to the Jews!”15

Suffice it to say, Jesus’ explicit claim to be the Messiah (or Christ) during His trial before the Sanhedrin, the supreme Jewish tribunal (Matt. 26:64), flatly contradicts Hagee’s assertion. In that same passage, Jesus called Himself the “Son of Man,” an unmistakable reference to the Book of Daniel (7:13) which alludes to the Messiah. Jesus also applied the same title to Himself in revealing His identity to “a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council” (John 3:1, 14-15), as well as to the crowd who questioned His authority to forgive sins (Mark 2:10).

Furthermore, in response to Jesus’ question, “Who do you say I am?” (Matt. 16:15), Peter answered, “You are the Christ [Messiah]” (v. 16). Surely, had the Jewish apostle been wrong, Jesus would have corrected him at that moment; instead, Peter received the Lord’s blessing (v. 17).16 Jesus, however, instructed Peter, along with several others, not to reveal His messianic identity until due time (v. 20). He did so to avoid the prevalent misconceptions about the title, which had by then become largely understood in political terms17 — something wholly inappropriate for Jesus’ mission at that time — though Jesus did, on occasion, give public indications of His messiahship (cf. Luke 4:17-21; 20:41-44).

Indeed, Hagee’s view is made especially ironic by the fact that Jesus Himself said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel” (Matt. 15:24). Scripture clearly teaches that Jesus’ own people rejected Him, and not the other way around (John 1:11; Mark 12:1-12).

http://www.equip.org/free/DH005.htm

[Morningstarlet]

This is a portion from the book "Attack on America", by John Hagee. I am reading it from the book as I type this.

Bible scholars agree that Paul's statement that "all Israel will be saved" means Israel "as a whole", not every single individual. Just as the phrase "the fullness of the Gentiles" (Rom 11:25) does not mean every single Gentile will accept Jesus as Messiah, even so, not every single child of Israel will place his faith in Christ. But when the "fullness of the Gentiles" has come and the church age is completed, then God will remove the Jews' blindness (Rom 11:19) to the identity of Messiah, and "all Israel will be saved" (Rom 11:26).

"What is also clear from the whole thrust of the discussion in Romans 9-11," write the authors of "Hard Sayings of the Bible", is that God's purposes for the salvation of Israel will be realized in no other way and by no other means than THROUGH THE PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL AND THE RESPONSE OF FAITH." Israel, unsaved at the beginning of the Tribulation, will receive a multitude of witnesses and signs, so that individuals will experience salvation throughout the seven-year period and the nation will be saved at Jesus' return. (Romans 11:26-27)

That doesn't sound a thing like what you posted, Bondservant. Can you give more info about where you got that?

[Crescendo]

Originally posted by MercifullySaved
I believe he's also the one who says that the Jews don't need Jesus because they already have their method of attaining salvation. :confused

Of course they do. And we do too. All you have to do is lead a perfect and sinless life from birth to death, keeping all of God's laws. You would then be perfect in His sight and would be saved that way.

WARNING: This would be a real bad idea to try for those of you not yet saved!

[Bondservant]

Did you go to the link I posted? At the bottom of the article are footnotes which document where the qoutes were taken from i.e his sermons ,writings etc.

[kimmylg]

Personally, I believe you should never form an opinion about anyone based on what anyone else says about them. Listen to him once or twice and decide for yourself. God gave you discernment, too. :thumb

[Morningstarlet]

I went to the link, and I admit I know nothing about CRI. I don't see where Hagee says anything like this in his book I'm holding. Nor have I heard him state anything like that on his program, so I'm not sold on what this CRI is saying. Here's more:

Listen, my friend, if you have a Jewish friend, you must live before him as a representative of Christ. Love him, care for him, and let the light of your faith shine to him. The Jewish people have experienced the hatred of Christianity for more than two thousand years, beginning with the Crusades and evolving into the Holocaust of the twentieth century. They have not seen the unqualified love of God from Christianity. It's time for the Jewish community of the world to experience practical acts of kindness form Christians without a hidden agenda. Paul taught that the Jews will be provoked to jealousy (Rom. 11:11) and when they ask you about your faith, you then may fulfill the teaching of Peter, which says, "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear. (1 Peter 3:15).

[MercifullySaved]

Originally posted by Morningstarlet
I went to the link, and I admit I know nothing about CRI. I don't see where Hagee says anything like this in his book I'm holding. Nor has he ever stated anything like that on his program, so I'm not sold on what this CRI is stating.

I'm assuming you're kidding about not knowing about the CRI.

In case you're being serious, have you never heard of "the Bible answer man"??? If there is any group that knows their Bible, it's them. Of course, I'm not selling them as the be-all-end-all, but there is not a more Scripturally sound organization that I can think of, off the top of my head.
Personally, I believe you should never form an opinion about anyone based on what anyone else says about them. Listen to him once or twice and decide for yourself. God gave you discernment, too.
Terrible idea. No offense, Kimmylg. Not everyone has discernment, as evidenced by the fact that TBN has a huge following of very devoted Christians. If every believer had the gift of discerning false doctrine, there would be no WOF movement. For believers who may be somewhat lacking in discernment, God gave us groups like the CRI.

[Morningstarlet]

Originally posted by MercifullySaved
I'm assuming you're kidding about not knowing about the CRI.
In case you're being serious, have you never heard of "the Bible answer man"??? If there is any group that knows their Bible, it's them. Of course, I'm not selling them as the be-all-end-all, but there is not a more Scripturally sound organization that I can think of, off the top of my head.


I'm serious, I'm not familiar with CRI, though I believe I have heard of the Bible Answer Man. I added to my post above from the book written by John Hagee, and what he wrote does not line up with what you and Bondservant have posted. I'm going to check into it further. For now I'll have to go by what John Hagee wrote personally rather than what someone else wrote about him.

[Ynott]

Hagee has been changing. Here is the best documented article (from which most others have been excerpted) that I found on this subject on the web:

http://www.pfo.org/jonhagee.htm

Rather than throw the article out, perhaps you could check out the voluminous quotes, attributions and sources listed at the bottom?

I agree with the poster above. Not everyone has been given the same gifts. We know this from the Bible, yet we all believe we have the gift of discernment. Nobody likes to believe that they can be fooled...few believe it can happen to them. I am no different. But looking at the church today and all of the error, I must conclude that I too can err in this regard.

But a careful reading of Rev. Hagee's own words reveals that he has and is changing. I respect this man very much and still enjoy much of his prophecy material, yet he is only a man and subject to error like the rest of us.

I believe that his association with WOF ministers and the TBN channel in particular might be starting to "color" his views on many subjects.

Just be berean and keep your bible in hand and check to make sure that NO man is deceiving you.

Paul and Barnabas came pretty well commended by the church and yet they were "checked"....Hagee and others are no different.

EDITED TO ADD: If what he says that day is sound biblical doctrine and touches your heart, then believe him. If what he says is contrary to the bible and error-ridden, then turn him off. But don't forget to pray for him when you do this. We are all children of God trying to operate in a world filled with sin. None of us is perfect (or without sin), no not one.

Be berean. Be Christ-like. Stay the course and finish the race.

[David Mark]

Originally posted by Ynott
Just be berean and keep your bible in hand and check to make sure that NO man is deceiving you.


Outstanding reply, Ynott!

Dave

[Teresa]

Hank Hanegraaff is the Bible Answer Man and president of CRI which has brought a lot of light to the wof movement. It was his book "Christianity in Crisis" that really help me come out of the wof movement.

I watched a lot of Hagee is the past. He was one of my favorites. But his association with the word of faith preachers has made me rethink my listening to him. Did you know that he has yearly cruises with Jesse Duplantis? They take their partners with them.

I have seen Joyce Meyers, Kenneth Copeland, Jesse and others at his church preaching.

Hagee is word of faith or he would be denouncing these heritic teachings instead of inviting them to teach his congregation.

[kimmylg]

Terrible idea. No offense, Kimmylg. Not everyone has discernment, as evidenced by the fact that TBN has a huge following of very devoted Christians. If every believer had the gift of discerning false doctrine, there would be no WOF movement. For believers who may be somewhat lacking in discernment, God gave us groups like the CRI.




OK, let me re-phrase that. Christians should really stop accepting everything that everyone is trying to spoon feed them and start using their own minds and listening to their own spirits.

Better?

[Ynott]

Originally posted by kimmylg

OK, let me re-phrase that. Christians should really stop accepting everything that everyone is trying to spoon feed them and start using their own minds and listening to their own spirits. {emphasis mine}

Better?

Actually no..... It sounds worse. You may want to rephrase that a bit.

It is perfectly acceptable to rely upon others for information and assistance. The body has many parts. Over time, you begin to understand where the strengths of the body are and where the weakenesses are.

It is very easy to be deceived. Been there, done that...Bought the t-shirt.

We have two witnesses to keep us straight: the Holy Bible and the Holy Spirit...but if your spirit is telling you something different from my spirit, what does that mean? It means that though we "term it the spirit" that it is NOT the Holy Spirit (at least one, maybe both spirits are not). For the Holy Spirit speaks the truth and not confusion.

The problem is that we all believe (as christians) that when we "feel" the spirit talking to us that it is the Holy Spirit. Frankly, quite often it is our sinful human fleshly self. We are of two natures and often hear what we want to hear.

If I have doubts, I check out the facts to the best of my ability, rely upon experts I trust, listen to the Holy Spirit and then stack all of that on one shelf and weight it about 1 per cent. The other 99 per cent is the Holy Bible. I can see it, read it, understand it and know it to be full proof in what the Holy Spirit is REALLY saying....Everything else is subject to interpretation and error.

If it doesn't line up with the Bible, it isn't worth a thing. That's being berean.

[MercifullySaved]

Originally posted by kimmylg
Christians should really stop accepting everything that everyone is trying to spoon feed them and start using their own minds and listening to their own spirits.

Better?

Well, not really. You have to realize that listening to our own spirits can get us in a lot of trouble. I'm sure that many WOF followers believe that they're listening to their own spirits. In fact, they ARE listening to their own spirits, and they're more or less blocking out the Holy Spirit.
My opinion is this...whatever or whomever you listen to, go into it prepared to test their word against that of Scripture. Testing it against Scripture might mean turning to groups like the CRI, who specialize in pin-pointing exactly where or how a doctrine by someone like John Hagee is in error.
Unfortunately, the wolves in sheep's clothing are more likely to gain the public's attention, because they offer something new and likely more acceptable by the world's standards. John Hagee is a perfect example of this...he's totally compromised his ministry by allowing women to join his ministry in a pastoral role and by allowing the blasphemingest of the blaspheming WOF'ers to speak at his church.
Things like this are pure appeasement to someone who is more interested in quenching the thirst of their flesh than they are in feeding the fire of their spirit. That's our call to avoid them altogether. That's why we, as believers, need to listen to other believers (such as the CRI) who may have an inside scoop or for whatever reason know better than we do.
Sleepers, open your eyes!
the war is on, our battle cry is no compromise!!</supertones plug>

[Jael]

Originally posted by Ynott
Actually no..... It sounds worse. You may want to rephrase that a bit.

It is perfectly acceptable to rely upon others for information and assistance. The body has many parts. Over time, you begin to understand where the strengths of the body are and where the weakenesses are.

It is very easy to be deceived. Been there, done that...Bought the t-shirt.

We have two witnesses to keep us straight: the Holy Bible and the Holy Spirit...but if your spirit is telling you something different from my spirit, what does that mean? It means that though we "term it the spirit" that it is NOT the Holy Spirit (at least one, maybe both spirits are not). For the Holy Spirit speaks the truth and not confusion.

The problem is that we all believe (as christians) that when we "feel" the spirit talking to us that it is the Holy Spirit. Frankly, quite often it is our sinful human fleshly self. We are of two natures and often hear what we want to hear.

If I have doubts, I check out the facts to the best of my ability, rely upon experts I trust, listen to the Holy Spirit and then stack all of that on one shelf and weight it about 1 per cent. The other 99 per cent is the Holy Bible. I can see it, read it, understand it and know it to be full proof in what the Holy Spirit is REALLY saying....Everything else is subject to interpretation and error.

If it doesn't line up with the Bible, it isn't worth a thing. That's being berean.

Good post Ynott...:):

[kimmylg]

OK, I think you guys are missing my point.

Sorry to ding on Catholicism, but this is to illustrate my point. People sit in those pews and listen to everything the priest tells them and never investigate things for themselves to find out if this guy is actually speaking the truth or if what he is speaking a very twisted version of what the truth is.

When it comes to asking someone's opinion of a minister, or any other person for that matter, especially when two versions have been presented, it is more productive if that person checks it out for himself. Otherwise, he could spend years being torn between all the different things people have told him about that person.

By the way, people are not all persuaded by or convicted by the Holy Spirit about the same things. If that were the case, we would all be a bunch of robots..how dull. Some people are convicted about celebrating Halloween because of what they read in scripture (myself included). Others, however, are not convicted in that area. The same goes for a lot of areas, including how so many of you feel about certain ministers. Just because that is your conviction, doesn't mean it is everyone's. It all depends on how you read the scriptures.

No one on this board or any other board has all the answers (although some try to act as though they do), not even Jesus knew the answer to EVERY mystery in the Bible.

[Ynott]

Yes, Kimmy, that is exactly the point!

When we are not ALL persuaded about something, it should give us "pause" as to whether or not it is THE HOLY SPIRIT speaking to us.

While we may not all share the same gifts, the Holy Spirit IS THE SAME.

If He is coming across differently to different people over important issues, then we need to perhaps either keep it as a personal conviction (quite biblical as in the case of certain holidays...Paul speaks to this.) or understand that "possibly" it isn't the Holy Spirit at all.

We are living in an age of "experiential" churches, where we must "feel" the Spirit and "experience" Christ. This is dangerous territory...and can lead to many errors.

That is the point.

With regard to Hagee (and other prophecy teachers), there is often a tendancy (especially among some new believers) to "elevate" them (or rip them up!) beyond a reasonable level. These men too are human and prone to errors. All we are saying is that one needs to examine the "whole cloth" and to remain berean.

I believe that Rev. Hagee is very good when teaching prophecy. That being said, I still "check" out what he is saying. I also have heard him say some pretty erroneous things (not read about it....actually heard it with my own ears). He is human. He makes mistakes. Don't we all?

Please do keep all of our wonderful prophecy teachers in prayer. This is a very difficult time we are facing. They need all the prayers we can give them in support.

We are to pray for one another and encourage one another in the faith. I encourage you, Kimmy, in your walk today. :):

Everyone needs to remain berean and aware until HE COMES.

Looking Up! \0/

[cindyw]

Originally posted by Ynott
When we are not ALL persuaded about something, it should give us "pause" as to whether or not it is THE HOLY SPIRIT speaking to us.

While we may not all share the same gifts, the Holy Spirit IS THE SAME.

If He is coming across differently to different people over important issues, then we need to perhaps either keep it as a personal conviction (quite biblical as in the case of certain holidays...Paul speaks to this.) or understand that "possibly" it isn't the Holy Spirit at all.

We are living in an age of "experiential" churches, where we must "feel" the Spirit and "experience" Christ. This is dangerous territory...and can lead to many errors.

That is the point.

Everyone needs to remain berean and aware until HE COMES.

Looking Up! \0/

:nod :thumb

[Morningstarlet]

I don't watch Hagee as much as I used to, so if he's changed I wouldn't be aware of it. The only time I really got a little concerned with Hagee is when he attended and spoke at Juanita Bynum's wedding. He was easy to spot because he was also the only white person in attendance. That was when I wondered if he also was caught up in the whole WOF garbage. Other than that incident I never questioned his preaching on salvation because I never had a reason to.

[kimmylg]

Thank you, Ynott, for the encouragement! :kiss

[carmen]

Originally posted by Teresa
But his association with the word of faith preachers has made me rethink my listening to him. Did you know that he has yearly cruises with Jesse Duplantis? They take their partners with them.

I have seen Joyce Meyers, Kenneth Copeland, Jesse and others at his church preaching.

Hagee is word of faith or he would be denouncing these heritic teachings instead of inviting them to teach his congregation. I am aware of this as well, Teresa. I live very near his church and have seen the electronic sign near the highway advertising these speakers.

I used to have a great deal of respect for John Hagee, but his association and implicit agreement with these teachers has turned my opinion almost 180 degrees, I am sorry to say :(:.