members to sign covenant agreement

[His Sparrow]

For various reasons, I've been looking for a new church. I came across a Vineyard church, and while on the surface it looks really nice, members have to sign a covenant agreement. Among other things you would be agreeing to obey leadership, tithe generously, and actively participate in at least one ministry. Is this usual for Vineyard churches? What do ya'll think about this?

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by His Sparrow
For various reasons, I've been looking for a new church. I came across a Vineyard church, and while on the surface it looks really nice, members have to sign a covenant agreement. Among other things you would be agreeing to obey leadership, tithe generously, and actively participate in at least one ministry. Is this usual for Vineyard churches? What do ya'll think about this?

ok... first... lets look at the issues you are to agree to:

Obey leadership ... well, there is potential here for problems. We are to honor those who are "over" us, but when Jesus and Paul taught about spiritual leadership it had very little to do with underlings "obeying". It had everything to do with leaders being servents, and being lower than the rest in humility. I say all this as an elder in a house church network. I have not once ever expected anyone to obey me. The concept of that seems so arrogant to me to demand that of people. Should you respect them and listen and learn from them. Absolutely! But church leaders have to earn respect just like anyone else.

Tithe generously ... this sounds a funny to me. 99.9% of people who believe the tithe is for the church (which I do not) agree that the tithe is 10%. How do you give 10% generously? 10% is 10%. GIVE generously and joyfully... but by their own teaching you can not tithe generously. That grammatically incorrect. But the tithe is not and has never been intended for the NT church. And that horse has been :deadhorse to death on this website, and I do not wish to get into that again (tho it may be too late!)

Actively participate in at least one ministry ... this isnt a bad one, but what happens if for some reason you cant actively participate in at least one ministry? Then you've broken your covenant.

Now... as to the whole issue of signing a covenant to join a church... let me ask you something: Did you have to sign anything to become a believer? Also... where in scripture do you see people "becoming members" of churches, or signing covenants? It's not there, and therefore by it's very nature it is unscriptural.

Also... IMHO you could find a church that has more scripturally based theology and doctrine than Vineyard. Most of their churches are very much into WOF.

[cindyw]

Originally posted by His Sparrow
For various reasons, I've been looking for a new church. I came across a Vineyard church, and while on the surface it looks really nice, members have to sign a covenant agreement. Among other things you would be agreeing to obey leadership, tithe generously, and actively participate in at least one ministry. Is this usual for Vineyard churches? What do ya'll think about this?

Sounds like you are expected alot to come into that Church. I would ask them to sign a covenant too. :heh: Make one up of all YOUR expectations of them as leaders........ie: to preach the unadulterated Word of God and to follow it's teachings and practices to a "t", that they also would be willing to submit to "one another" including to you, as the Word of God teaches. They will not allow pride to enter into their dealings with the Body and if so, and they are unable to control that area of the flesh, they will step down from authority. They also will step down from authority if it has been found that they are not in line with I Tim. 3's requirements for leadership. They will be held to a standard of "not preferring one another" concerning those in leadership over those in the congregation. All will be done justly and according to the Word of God............Do you think they will buy into that?............:B: ;):

[John Tyson]

Grace and peace to you all.

Krispy, may I just disagree a little with what you said about "obeying" the leaders. We do have a verse telling us "underlings" to obey.

Hebrews 13:17
17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

Now to signing covenants. I personally do not. I'm not saying that others who do are wrong, it's just that I do not. I don't because I find that I sometimes break the vows or covenants I've made for one reason or another. Breaking a vow is something I try to avoid and not signing a vow or covenant is one way I use to keep from breaking my vows. However, my heart is committed to do those things which are pleasing to the Lord, and although I often fail, I do strive to please Him.

God bless,
John

[Don]

Originally posted by His Sparrow
For various reasons, I've been looking for a new church. I came across a Vineyard church, and while on the surface it looks really nice, members have to sign a covenant agreement. Among other things you would be agreeing to obey leadership, tithe generously, and actively participate in at least one ministry. Is this usual for Vineyard churches? What do ya'll think about this?
http://www.stanleyart.com/robot2.jpg
*Danger! Danger, Will Robinson!*

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by John Tyson
Grace and peace to you all.

Krispy, may I just disagree a little with what you said about "obeying" the leaders. We do have a verse telling us "underlings" to obey.

Hebrews 13:17
17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

John... I'm well aware of this verse, and I was remiss to not bring it up. But it comes down to what does "obey" and "submit" mean? Does it mean they tell me what to do and I mindlessly do it? No. What this verse means is that we should allow ourselves to be persuaded by them... so long as what they are persuading me to is in line with the Word of God. In other words... respect their opinions on matters. Too many times preachers and elders think "obey" means they can command their little army of followers... and that is what I take issue with.

[Brad MetalMan]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
John... I'm well aware of this verse, and I was remiss to not bring it up. But it comes down to what does "obey" and "submit" mean? Does it mean they tell me what to do and I mindlessly do it? No. What this verse means is that we should allow ourselves to be persuaded by them... so long as what they are persuading me to is in line with the Word of God. In other words... respect their opinions on matters. Too many times preachers and elders think "obey" means they can command their little army of followers... and that is what I take issue with.

Of course not, we are to obey God, not men. Nor are we to obey mindlessly, but evaluate everything against the word. If we cannot find a reason to not obey, we should.

Now, I can see where the church is coming from with those things. It is not legalism to ask people to tithe, obey leadership and participate in a ministry.

One problem I find in the church is we have fallen victim to the 80/20 principal, which says that 20% of the people in a given organization do 80% of the work. This is very true in secular non=prophet organizations and in businesses.

The christian is called to service, and is called to lay down their life for the Gospel. If each church member became involved with one ministry, the workload becomes much less. I remember that my sister and I were involved with 2 or 3 ministries at a time at our church because people would not put the time in to do just one. In our consumer oriented society, we ask often what can I get out of this....what's in it for me?

In Acts, Paul quotes Jesus as saying it is more blessed to give than receive. God honors those who serve him, and will bless those who do.

The church should not fall to the 80/20 principal, but should be in the 100/100 principal...that's everyone sharing the work equally as their time, abilities and resources permit. Some have more time and energy to give than others do, and they can participate in ministries that require the most time and energy.

Ok getting off soapbox now.

[BusyMom]

That was GREAT!!!! I haven't thought about that guy in a while!

:pound :pound :pound


I agree that signig a covenant is a BAD idea. Are you 100% sure that these guys teach the word accurately (as CindyW alluded to in a past post)? What if they are deceived in some areas and you have "covenanted" to be a part of them. God's word warns us about becoming unequally yoked and about taking vows that we cannot keep!

[cindyw]

Originally posted by Brad MetalMan
The christian is called to service, and is called to lay down their life for the Gospel. If each church member became involved with one ministry, the workload becomes much less. I remember that my sister and I were involved with 2 or 3 ministries at a time at our church because people would not put the time in to do just one. In our consumer oriented society, we ask often what can I get out of this....what's in it for me?

The problem with that mindset Brad (and I used to hold it too so no offense).........many of the "ministries" are man made, not God made. Personally, I am finding that I want to be where God wants me, not where man tells me I need to be. All works we do outside of His will----that we do to please men, will be burned up. Believe me, I'm not talking about being lazy and just sitting and receiving all the time. My DH and I teach Sunday school, but there was a time, when I was MUCH more involved. Now looking back, most of the works I did were because of pressure-----because of the 80/20 mindset. Yes, I was one of the 20%......doing MANY fruitless works.

You know, if everyone was properly discipled, getting things done that were GOD ordained would NEVER be a problem. Churches want all these "programs", yet most of the Christians who fill these Churches are infants-----infants who are not moved up to solid food will stay on milk-----and they won't be real productive for the kingdom. Grow up those babies and you will really see God's hand moving. But alas, most fear these babies will choke on solid food, so they continually feed them milk. And so the problem goes on and on..............JMHO. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

[rs41]

Originally posted by Don
http://www.stanleyart.com/robot2.jpg
*Danger! Danger, Will Robinson!* I agree. It is time to shop around I think.

[Rebecki]

I think Krispy hit the nail on the head with his original post.

actively participate in at least one ministry

Hmmmm... I smell legalism... :yuck

There is nothing wrong with giving yourself to ministry, however it is not the churches responsibility to tell you where God wants you in ministry. What if you have signed a covenant and God calls you to do a ministry outside of your congregation? What if this ministry takes up most of your time? Personally, I feel that as parents our first ministry is to our children, so where does that leave parents then?

I say run, run like the wind. This church sends a message that works count, but God's Word says that our works are as filthy rags.

Just my .02 worth. :wave

[cindyw]

Originally posted by Rebecki
I think Krispy hit the nail on the head with his original post.



Hmmmm... I smell legalism... :yuck

There is nothing wrong with giving yourself to ministry, however it is not the churches responsibility to tell you where God wants you in ministry. What if you have signed a covenant and God calls you to do a ministry outside of your congregation? What if this ministry takes up most of your time? Personally, I feel that as parents our first ministry is to our children, so where does that leave parents then?

I say run, run like the wind. This church sends a message that works count, but God's Word says that our works are as filthy rags.

Just my .02 worth. :wave

:thumb :D:

[Brad MetalMan]

Originally posted by cindyw
The problem with that mindset Brad (and I used to hold it too so no offense).........many of the "ministries" are man made, not God made. Personally, I am finding that I want to be where God wants me, not where man tells me I need to be. All works we do outside of His will----that we do to please men, will be burned up. Believe me, I'm not talking about being lazy and just sitting and receiving all the time. My DH and I teach Sunday school, but there was a time, when I was MUCH more involved. Now looking back, most of the works I did were because of pressure-----because of the 80/20 mindset. Yes, I was one of the 20%......doing MANY fruitless works.

You know, if everyone was properly discipled, getting things done that were GOD ordained would NEVER be a problem. Churches want all these "programs", yet most of the Christians who fill these Churches are infants-----infants who are not moved up to solid food will stay on milk-----and they won't be real productive for the kingdom. Grow up those babies and you will really see God's hand moving. But alas, most fear these babies will choke on solid food, so they continually feed them milk. And so the problem goes on and on..............JMHO. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

I see your point, so I take no offense at all. I can relate to doing fruitless works, because I felt pressured to. Its true that you must do ministry within God's will. I don't believe in doing works to please men...that sounds like the Pharisees. Paul talks about not letting people into ministry that are too young in the faith lest they become arrogant and fall under the same condemnation as the devil.

[Brad MetalMan]

Originally posted by Rebecki
I think Krispy hit the nail on the head with his original post.



Hmmmm... I smell legalism... :yuck

There is nothing wrong with giving yourself to ministry, however it is not the churches responsibility to tell you where God wants you in ministry. What if you have signed a covenant and God calls you to do a ministry outside of your congregation? What if this ministry takes up most of your time? Personally, I feel that as parents our first ministry is to our children, so where does that leave parents then?

I say run, run like the wind. This church sends a message that works count, but God's Word says that our works are as filthy rags.

Just my .02 worth. :wave


I agree with all that minus legalism part. They should write it differently, like not putting a number on it. Perhaps they should include a call to committed Christian service, but not specify where. That way if their only ministry was to their children, that would be just as good as ministry in the church. Just a suggestion.
A church does have the right to hold its members accountable to live the Christian life.

[cindyw]

Originally posted by Brad MetalMan
A church does have the right to hold its members accountable to live the Christian life.

I agree with this. God did not intend us to be "lone rangers"......Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

[His Sparrow]

Thanks for your opinions guys. Actually I'm pretty surprised Vineyard has gone in this direction. A few years ago they didn't have memberships and certainly not any covenant agreement. I think the key to this may be the tithe. Does anyone here know anything about the Vineyard church?

[Rebecki]

Perhaps they should include a call to committed Christian service, but not specify where. That way if their only ministry was to their children, that would be just as good as ministry in the church. Just a suggestion.

And an excellent suggestion at that. I believe that only Christ can dictate to us where we are to minister and then once begun, it's up to the church body to encourage that ministry along and be there in times of trouble, etc.

A church does have the right to hold its members accountable to live the Christian life.

I agree 100%. I left a church that did not hold members accountable to biblical standards in leadership and we had adulterers leading bible studies. I had a real problem with that. Also had one couple blatantly lying to the congregation about being married. They wore wedding rings to appear married, but it was common knowledge that they were just living together in sin. They were both in leadership roles also. There was no accountability there. That's one of the reasons that that church is falling apart now. :(:

[seeker42]

IMHO you could find a church that has more scripturally based theology and doctrine than Vineyard. Most of their churches are very much into WOF

Well said.


Seeker
:):

[milkncookiesmom]

I posed a question to the board over a year ago about a covenant our church was implementing and I got far different responses then. I was uneasy about it and yet I got responses from others who said they saw no problems with it. I realize the responses to each thread is dependent on who reads it, but I think things are changing just over this past year and people are looking at things a bit closer and maybe a bit wiser.

Our church started off with the covenant, then have implemented the 101,201,301,401 classes. Now this Fall they are doing the 40 Days of Purpose campaign and reading Rick Warren's Purpose Driven Life. My research has shown that all of this is part of Rick Warren's model for the church. The membership covenant is part of his ministry toolbox for pastors. Linked here,
http://www.pastors.com/RWMT/?id=76&artid=3140&expand=1

Our church covenant is almost identical with only a few minor changes, so I know that is the source for ours. Other churches seem to be using a variation of this covenant more and more.

I just thought I would offer that information for something to consider for you and others who are seeing covenants established in their churches.

I've been keeping up on all of these threads related to church growth and certainly believe there is reason to be concerned and as one article I read put it as something that is "flying in under the radar". What looks good or harmless on the surface may not be all that harmless to the health of the Church.

[milkncookiesmom]

Here is another article written by Rick Warren on Commitments and Covenants. It helps to understand the mindset he is using, but I can't say I agree with his methods. This was the article that convinced me that what our church is doing is coming straight from some Rick Warren manual.

http://www.pastorport.com/ministrytoday.asp?mode=viewarchive&index=16

[Ynott]

http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/Vineyard.html

Vineyard Churches--Profile

I. Group Profile

1. Name: Vineyard Churches

2. Founder: Kenn & Joanie Gulliksen and John Wimber

3. Date of Birth: John Wimber was born in 1934. He died on November 17, 1997.

4. Birth Place: Wimber was born in Kirksville, Missouri.

5. Year Founded: 1974

6. Brief History: The Vineyard Movement started as an offshoot of the Calvary Chapel Movement. Chuck Smith began the Calvary Movement in the mid-1960s among hippies because he was tired of the denominational structure of other churches. His Pentecostal Movement stressed a strong relationship with Jesus. Kenn Gulliksen, an associate pastor at a Calvary church in 1974, and his wife, Joanie, led a congregation in Los Angeles with the goals of worship, relationship, healing, training, and giving according to contemporary culture. In 1982, Gulliksen and other Calvary Chapel pastors decided to change the name of his congregation because Gulliksen's church strongly emphasized the gifts of the Holy Spirit and public expression of tongues, prophecy, and healing. The Calvary Chapel leaders did not promote such overt displays of charismatic gifts. Therefore, Kenn Gulliksen's Sunday worship became known as the Vineyard.

Around the same time, John Wimber was also a pastor of another Calvary Chapel church. A friendship developed between Wimber and Gulliksen and the two decided to merge their churches because of the many parallels in their worship methods. Since 1982, John Wimber has been the spokesman and public leader of the Vineyard Movement. Wimber established the Anaheim Vineyard, which now has a state-of-the-art 3,000-seat auditorium, as the headquarters for the Vineyard Movement. For Gulliksen, "John was like a savior in a fat man's body for me at the time" (Miller 49).

Neither of the two men suspected that over the next several years another thirty Calvary Chapels would join this new Vineyard Movement. In fact, one of the distinct characteristics of the Vineyard Movement is that 35% of the Vineyards' congregations have been "adopted" from another denomination or group.

Due to its diverse composition, the Vineyard Movement goes by several different names. It is commonly known as Power Evangelism because the followers use displays of the Power of the Holy Spirit to win converts. The Vineyard Movement is also referred to as the Signs and Wonders Movement due to its emphasis on miracles. Wimber also offered a highly controversial "Signs and Wonders" course at Fuller Theological Seminary. The Third Wave is a popular name for this group as well. They accept the first wave of the Holy Spirit as the Asuza Street revival in Los Angeles in 1906. The second wave was the charismatic movement of the 1960s. Vineyard followers consider the rise of signs and wonders in the 1980s the third wave. Wimber taught his "Third Wavers" that they were reliving the days of the apostles. Other more conventional names for the Vineyard Movement include Vineyard Christian Fellowship and the Association of Vineyard Churches .

Although generally accepted as an antiestablishment movement, Wimber suggested the idea of denominationalism at a pastors conference in 1988. Many pastors were reluctant to formalize as a denomination because the term implies control, structure, and bureaucracy. The reason many of the members joined the Vineyard was because it was culturally current, flexible, and continually innovating. However, after much soul searching, the Vineyard now identifies itself as a denomination. As sociologist Thomas O'Dea observed, "religion both needs most and suffers most from institutionalization ."

7. Sacred or Revered Texts: Although John Wimber and other Vineyard leaders claim to rely on the Holy Bible, the Vineyard movement is routinely criticized for emphasizing experience rather than Scripture. According to Wimber, "only by startling the world by demonstrations of clairvoyance and powerful healings will the gospel message receive respectful attention, because (apparently) by itself, the Gospel is too weak and powerless to break the stubbornness and rebellion of the human heart" (http://www.pacinter.net/users/chawman/Wimber.html).

8. Cult or Sect:
Negative sentiments are typically implied when the concepts "cult" and "sect" are employed in popular discourse. Since the Religious Movements Homepage seeks to promote religious tolerance and appreciation of the positive benefits of pluralism and religious diversity in human cultures, we encourage the use of alternative concepts that do not carry implicit negative stereotypes. For a more detailed discussion of both scholarly and popular usage of the concepts "cult" and "sect," please visit our Conceptualizing "Cult" and "Sect" page, where you will find additional links to related issues.

9. Size of Group: The Vineyard boasts 500 churches nationwide plus 250 more worldwide with over 100,000 members (Maxwell 58, Chandler A34).

II. Beliefs of the Group

In general, the Vineyard Movement is very orthodox in much of its theology. Their basic doctrines deal with the Trinity, the deity of Christ, salvation by grace through faith alone, and the inspiration of Scripture (http://www.csnet.net.spfld/svchapel/studypaper/vineyard2.html).

The Vineyard differs from other religions with the unconventional devotion to the gifts of the Spirit. Vineyard emphasizes public healing, glossolalia (speaking in tongues), demon depossession, and prophecy.

One way to get an idea of what Vineyard members believe is to follow their style of worship. The pattern of worship in all Vineyard Churches is similar. There are 3 distinct parts to the worship service - singing, teaching, and prayer - yet all are intertwined.

First, the service opens with a brief prayer. The first third of each service is devoted to music and singing. A lively band plays several upbeat songs and then people sing along to extremely mellow music. The lyrics to the songs are projected on either side on a screen so everyone in the auditorium can see the words. The lyrics emphasize God's holiness and compassion. Vineyard music is viewed as intimate and worship-oriented; the lyrics are often intended as a form of prayer or direct personal communication with God. "We direct most of our songs to God as opposed to singing about God" (Miller 87). These characteristics and the Vineyard's unique ability to constantly compose new songs keeps the music fresh and distinctive. One of the most influential sources of music for the Vineyard movement, Maranatha Music (a record company), introduced such songs as "Father I Adore You," "See Ye First," and "Glorify Thy Name." These songs were written by nonprofessionals who wrote from personal experiences. Kevin Springer, a key figure in the Vineyard Fellowship, stated:
You don't understand the Vineyard if you don't understand the worship music. That is probably the greatest contributor to the growth and advancement of the Vineyard movement. More than healing, more than books, more than tapes. It's Vineyard music. That's my experience based on what people tell me. John Wimber, if he's really technically trained at anything, it's as a musician. He's the one who developed and set the tone to the music that's gone all over the world and touched Christians from all kinds of traditions" (Miller 83-84). Perhaps the prominence of music in the Vineyard movement has a great deal to do with Wimber's background as a keyboardist in the band The Righteous Brothers.

After the music, ushers discreetly pass around offering baskets. Then, for the next 30 to 40 minutes, the pastor preaches to the congregation. He often selects a passage of scripture to talk about and relates it to personal experiences. The preaching style is very informal.

The last element of the service is what Wimber and Vineyard members affectionately call "ministry time." The pastor invites individuals who desire prayer to come to the front of the auditorium. There, they are met by a lay member of the Church who takes them aside and prays with them, often putting a hand on their shoulder for comfort. This usually concludes the service.

Due to John Wimber's dedication to the belief that prayer leads to healing, he took his "ministry time" to another level. Wimber started sponsoring Vineyard healing conferences where people could come to be prayed for and healed. Until the beginning of this century, traditional Christian theology held that gift signs such as prophecy, miracles, healing, tongues, and interpretation of tongues had ceased with the death of the Apostles. In the Pentecostal tradition of this century, the Vineyard makes the demonstration of these sign gifts an integral part of their worship system. Many Vineyard Churches, especially the Anaheim Vineyard integrate healing into their regular services and, in addition, sponsor healing conferences which attract many attendants. At one recent conference, slightly less than 50% of the people who attended were from Vineyard churches, approximately 20% were from nondenominational churches, and 30% were from denominations such as Baptist, Presbyterian, Episcopal, Assemblies of God, and Methodist. At these Vineyard healing conferences, the presence of signs and wonders, demon depossession, healing, and holy laughter are abundant.

It is important to note that these expressions led to the Vineyard's disaffiliation with Calvary Chapel. Calvary could not incorporate the Pentecostal leanings of Vineyard because of the glaring difference of opinion in respect to their basic beliefs. "The main line of demarcation between the two movements is their attitude toward the gifts of the spirit" (Miller 50). The Vineyard Church has emphasized healing while Calvary Chapel places the most importance on evangelism and growth.

[Ynott]

Furthermore, sociologists Robin Perrin and Armand Mauss concluded that the "VCF recruits reflected certain of the intellectual and behavioral preferences that are sometimes associated with 'evangelicals' without the intellectual rigidity often associated with 'fundamentalists'" (Perrin & Mauss 132). Chuck Smith advocated a more fundamentalist stance in his churches; that is, he did not encourage expression of tongues, prophecy, and healing in public worship. Fundamentalism is part of the main-stream culture. Pentecostalism remains on the fringe.

For this reason, the Vineyard Movement does not like being associated with the term "Pentecostalism." Although they recognize their roots in the Pentecostal and charismatic movements, Vineyard followers believe they have moved beyond the first two waves of the Holy Spirit (http://www.cnsnet.net/spfld/svchapel/studypaper/vineyard1.html). Vineyard leaders claim that adverse beliefs concerning the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" are what distance them from both Pentecostalists and charismatics. The Vineyard perceive that the baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs at the moment of conversion while others maintain that this baptism comes after conversion and prepares the follower for ministry.

In conclusion, the Vineyard Movement started when they splintered off from Chuck Smith's Calvary Chapel. Due to their fundamental differences regarding the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the Vineyard and Calvary could no longer function together. In fact, many other Calvary Chapel congregations have followed Wimber and Gulliksen's lead and have left Calvary and joined the Vineyard Fellowship. The Vineyard Movement utilizes innovative worship techniques - including contemporary praise songs, emphasis on experience rather than doctrine, and public healing to further their message of the Power of the Holy Spirit.

III. Issues and Controversies

One obstacle the Vineyard Movement has recently faced deals with the disfellowship of the Toronto Airport Vineyard Church (also known as Toronto Blessing ). Over 300,000 people have visited the Toronto branch to experience for themselves the outbreak of "holy laughter." Holy laughter is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit through hysterical, uncontrollable laughter. John Wimber and the Association of Vineyard Churches recognize holy laughter as an important part of their ministry. However, when the Toronto Vineyard started incorporating animal noises as part of the holy laughter experience, Wimber decided that they had gone too far. In 1994, the Toronto Airport Vineyard Church was kicked out of the Vineyard Movement. It was a difficult decision for Wimber to make considering the popularity of this charismatic event and due to the fact that the Vineyard Movement was in such a relatively early stage of development.

Another central problem that Vineyard Churches have encountered has to do with their recent decision to become a denomination. The term implies rules, control, and bureaucracy -- things that the Vineyard's carefree nature seems opposed to. However, the Vineyard Movement is a charismatic group -- not in the sense that it relies on glossolalia and instantaneous healing, but in terms of its leader John Wimber's influential personality and gifted leadership abilities. Max Weber, a noted sociologist, asserts that groups solely centered around a dynamic leader are inherently unstable and need to routinize in order to survive. According to sociological definitions, routinization refers to developing stable routines and is commonly referred to as institutionalization.

Keith Roberts, a respected author on the subject of new religious movements' viability, states that, "[i]f the religious movement is to survive for any significant period of time, a stable set of roles and statuses must be established and a consistent pattern of norms generated and adhered to" (Roberts 167). Wimber did a lot of soul searching before deciding for denominationalism. He ultimately chose routinization as the best path for his movement and moved "to create regional overseers and more centralized reporting while maintaining a movement that is relationally, rather than bureaucratically, oriented" (Miller 51). Nonetheless, the Association of Vineyard Churches has lost some membership due to this apparent violation of the original mission of the movement. Some Vineyard churches have returned to the Calvary movement because it seems less inclined to institutionalization (Miller 175).

Currently, though, the Association of Vineyard Churches faces a much graver dilemma. With John Wimber's untimely passing this past November, the leadership of the movement has been in disarray. "Before his death, Wimber installed a board of six regional overseers ... There is also a council of district overseers and a leadership team, including area coordinators and task force leaders" (Maxwell 58). However, the Vineyard's organizational structure may not be strong enough to survive the loss of its charismatic leader.

John Wimber skillfully used his charisma to acquire considerable power and authority.The Vineyard Movement now faces the need for someone who can step in and take over Wimber's strong leadership role. The two top candidates are Todd Hunter, the acting national director of the Association of Vineyard Churches, USA, and Bob Fulton, the international coordinator of the Vineyard International Consortium and Wimber's brother-in-law. Inside observers say the position will most likely go to 40-year-old Todd Hunter, who also holds a master's degree in biblical studies from Regent University. How the Vineyard Movement settles the question of succession will largely determine the group's survival.

Regent University divinity school dean, Vinson Synan, accurately observes that, "[t]he greatest asset Vineyard had was Wimber . . ." (Maxwell 58). Synan thinks that without their main leader, the movement is "struggling to define its future, theologically and every other way -- whether they would be more of a straightline evangelical church or more of a charismatic and Pentecostal influence" (Maxwell 58).

Nevertheless, John Wimber managed to initiate and lead a successful new religious movement through countless trials and tribulations. Fuller Seminary professor, C. Peter Wagner, says, "But now that he is gone he leaves a legacy not of criticism, but a legacy of positive contribution to the kingdom of God" (Maxwell 58).

IV. Links to Vineyard Churches Web Sites

The Association of Vineyard Churches
This official homepage of the Association of Vineyard Churches contains Vineyard publications (Statement of Faith, Position Papers, and John Wimber's papers), a Vineyard Directory (Churches, Web Sites, and E-mail), and other Vineyard information (FAQs and What's New). This site is useful as a starting point for basic, background information on the group.
http://www.avc.vineyard.org/avc-home.htmll

The Vineyard Movement: Part 1
The intent of this article is to get a firm handle on the Vineyard Movement by describing its beginnings, identifying its leaders, and examining its teachings. This document was written in October 1995 by Gary E. Gilley, a Pastor and Teacher at Southern View Chapel. Gilley mentions the Third Wave and other Pentecostal influences. He also writes a great deal about some of the key figures in Vineyard leadership.
http://www.cnsnet.net/spfld/svchapel/studypaper/vineyard1.html

The Vineyard Movement: Part 2
This is the second and final part of Gary E. Gilley's article on the Vineyard Movement. In the sequel, the author concentrates on the Vineyard Movement's actual teachings and theology. The Vineyard Movement's inconsistencies with accepted Scripture are mentioned. Gilley also talks about the movement's Eastern World perspective.
http://www.cnsnet.net/spfld/svchapel/studypaper/vineyard2.html

Vineyard USA
This is a good site to examine recent developments in this rapidly growing and ever changing religious movement.
http://www.vineyard.org/

The Story of the Vineyard Christian Fellowship
Background information on the Vineyard Christian Fellowship and explanations for understanding the "Third Wave" are presented in this story. The article was written by J.E. Choate and published in February 1997. There is a brief summary of the history of the Vineyard Movement as well. Near the end of the article, the author mentions the Toronto Blessing and alludes to a forthcoming story about it. There may be problems accessing this page.
http://www.bible-infonet.org/ff/articles/agents/112_02_15.htm

John Wimber: General Teachings/Activities
This document states 3 common criticisms of Wimber's teachings and responds to each. First, the author presents claims that Wimber's teachings depend on experience rather than Scripture. The second critique deals with the acceptance of occult/New Age practices in "Christian" forms. Third, the author confronts Wimber's mystical view of spiritual warfare -- that Christians can be possessed by demons.
http://www.pacinter.net/users/chawman/Wimber.html

Vineyard's Statement of Faith
The Vineyard Movement's complete Statement of Faith. This page details exactly what Vineyard followers believe and gives Biblical references for each belief. This is part of the Vineyard Church of Sugar Land's homepage.
http://www.slvineyard.org/state.html

Theological and Philosophical Statements
The Vineyard Movement's Theological and Philosophical Statements include their mission statement, purposes, values, priorities, practices the leaders aim to instill, Leadership Personnel requirements, and detailed endnotes. This is a comprehensive page of bureaucratic information from the Association of Vineyard Churches. Although I know this website exists, you may encounter some problems trying to access it.
http://www.avc.vineyard.org/papers/theology/theophil.html

Vineyard Churches in USA
This site is a directory of Vineyard Churches' physical addresses and web-site addresses. Currently, the web page only offers links to the Sugar Land Vineyard Church in Houston, TX and the Vineyard Christian Fellowship in Prescott Valley, AZ.
http://www.churchonline.com/usad/vy/vy.html

[Ynott]

http://www.vineyardusa.org/about/beliefs/beliefs.htm

What do Vineyard churches believe?

Not all Vineyard churches are alike but they all do share essential elements of Christian doctrine and practice.

The Vineyard Statement of Faith outlines the 12 points of Vineyard's doctrinal statement. Footnotes link every belief to its source in the Bible.

The Vineyard Theological & Philosophical Statements are descriptions of the Vineyard's mission, purposes, values, priorities, practices and leadership requirements.

The Vineyard Genetic Code is a list of values that are represented in Vineyard churches.





The Vineyard Genetic Code

Excerpt from the installation Service for a National Director
November 2000

This Genetic Code is not something we expect every church to have fully developed and in place, but we would expect these seven values to be represented in all Vineyard churches in some form.

The Word of God

We want to hear the Word of God taught in a practical, inspiring way, in conjunction with His current prophetic word. We aim to hear and obey God's word to us, and to be "doers of the Word" who are being transformed into the likeness of Christ.

Worshipping of God

We desire to worship God with our whole being, and want Jesus at the center as our Lord. We are hungry to know God's presence, hear His voice and follow hard after Him. We desire Spirit-enabled worship in a style that is intimate, dynamic, culture-current, and life-changing.

Caring for the poor

We believe that God's heart goes out to the weak, helpless, impoverished, oppressed, and needy, and that He has commissioned His church to care for them.

Equipping the saints

We believe that all Christians should be trained to "do the works of Christ." We are committed to the "show and tell" model of on-the-job training, in which trainees are introduced to doing ministry functions with trainers and then are taught during and after the training experience. We aim to provide training for all aspects of responsible Christian life and ministry.

Practicing Christian unity

We are convinced that all who belong to Christ are one in His Body, the Church. We aim to maintain unity by honoring all who call on Jesus' name and by seeking reconciliation with all parts of the Church.

Ministering in renewal to other churches

We desire to serve the Body of Christ around us through renewal, equipping and other helpful means.

Begetting other local churches

We believe that the best way to expand the Kingdom of God is through the planting of local churches. It is our desire to plant churches with a vision for planting other churches, with the same vision, in their Jerusalem, in their Judea and Samaria, and to the furthest recesses of this world.

[Ynott]

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/a92.html

Association of Vineyard Churches

Controversial movement that started out fine, but became known for its emphasis on experience over Scripture. Was responsible for giving the Kansas City Prophets an international platform. Its unbalanced approach to spiritual gifts (teaching the practice thereof without teaching people how to discern the difference between Biblical and un-Biblical teachings and practices) eventually led to such aberrancies as the Toronto Blessing Movement.

It appears that in recent years the Vineyard movement has matured quite a bit - a process that, perhaps, started around the time the movement cautiously distanced itself from the Toronto Blessing Movement.
John Wimber, Founder (1934 - 1997).

Todd Hunter, National Director of AVC-USA.

A Memoir of The Vineyard 1986-1994

http://www.banner.org.uk/tb/vnyd1.html

[tomberean]

Originally posted by His Sparrow
For various reasons, I've been looking for a new church. I came across a Vineyard church, and while on the surface it looks really nice, members have to sign a covenant agreement. Among other things you would be agreeing to obey leadership, tithe generously, and actively participate in at least one ministry. Is this usual for Vineyard churches? What do ya'll think about this?

This is "heavy-shepherding" at its worse. I wouldn't touch them with a pole. Apart from this their teachings do not comply with God's Word.

Heavy-shepherding has become THE prime vehicle to keep the flock under control, to identify the dissenters and deal withh them very swiftly, to manipulate their "flock" with subtle mind-control, and to guide them ever so subtly and gently into the ranks of a one world church

Tom

[cindyw]

I know what I said yesterday about you making up your own agreement, and I kinda said it in jest. However, my DH and I were talking about this topic this am. What is a covenant? Is it not a two-sided agreement? If so, then I would NEVER sign a one-sided thing. Personally, I wouldn't sign one anyways because as someone said------none of us can perfectly live up to a covenant. It WOULD get broken. Then what?.............Just something to ponder......Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

[Medic911]

http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/Vineyard.html

Holy laughter is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit through hysterical, uncontrollable laughter. John Wimber and the Association of Vineyard Churches recognize holy laughter as an important part of their ministry.
Although John Wimber and other Vineyard leaders claim to rely on the Holy Bible, the Vineyard movement is routinely criticized for emphasizing experience rather than Scripture. According to Wimber, "only by startling the world by demonstrations of clairvoyance and powerful healings will the gospel message receive respectful attention, because (apparently) by itself, the Gospel is too weak and powerless to break the stubbornness and rebellion of the human heart" (http://www.pacinter.net/users/chawman/Wimber.html).
:freaked

[Ynott]

Yup, you read that right, Medic. You should read the last one :


A Memoir of The Vineyard 1986-1994

http://www.banner.org.uk/tb/vnyd1.html



It's a REAL eye-opener about the Vineyard Church movement.

It is my understanding that they are moving away from their roots (toward more orthodoxy)...and from what I read, that is a good thing....but this is definitely one church I would thoroughly research before joining and would most DEFINITELY NOT sign anything with.

They have a "past".

[lighthouse]

STAY AWAY--SHEPARDING- CULT

[lighthouse]

http://www.cephasministry.com/shepherding_discipleship.html




SHEPHERDING - DISCIPLESHIP
Written by Albert James Dager



The Shepherding-Discipleship Movement which attained its greatest impetus during the 1960s and 70s exemplifies the extreme authoritarianism which would probably be necessary to implement and sustain any attempted theocracy. In spite of extreme abuses against personal freedom in Christ, the thought control that characterized that movement continues to rear its ugly head among Kingdom Now groups. Former leaders of that movement have gained new respectability among other leaders within charismatism. They have much to offer in the way of instruction on how to bend the wills of others to their own - a talent vital to any human attempt to set up the Kingdom of God.

There is no doubt that a great need exists within the Church for 'scripturally-based' discipleship and authority. Such must be founded on the concept of authority as servanthood, ministered in love and humility by those mature in the faith.

Shepherding-Discipleship as the movement it became, however, is nothing less than spiritual child-abuse. Through intimidation by the instilling of fear and unfounded guilt, it bludgeons babes in Christ into obedience to the wills of the "shepherds" in authority. And not only babes, but many "mature" Christians have fallen prey to this evil due to the misuse of Scripture to establish "coverings" over every member. Ephesians 5:11-14 is used to convince the unwary that in order to be perfected they must submit to those in authority, regardless of what that authority requires of them. Thus, abuses are rampant in Shepherding-Discipleship.

In extreme Shepherding-Discipleship many are compelled to live a communal lifestyle in total obedience to their "shepherds." They may not marry, work, minister, buy or sell, or exercise their own wills in any matter without their shepherd's approval. They live in strict conformity to religious and temporal duties within their communal society. Disobedience, and even weariness common to such a stringent lifestyle, meet with strong disciplinary action. There have even been reports of physical abuse to keep the "sheep" in line.

In such a scenario the individual's personal relationship to God is subordinated to the corporate structure of their religious society. One is not allowed to hear from God directly, because God only speaks to them through their shepherd. Should a person leave the "covering" of his shepherd to pursue his freedom in Christ, he is threatened with reprisals from the hand of God: loss of salvation, sickness, divorce, financial ruin. He is shunned by the community of which he was a part, and spoken of as a servant of Satan or in some other derogatory way.

Even the marriage relationship is subordinate to the relationship of the shepherd with his disciple. Broken homes and divorces are not uncommon among those marriages where one spouse develops a stronger bond to the shepherd than to his or her mate. All these abuses exceed the parameters of disciple- ship intended by Jesus, and establish the babes in Christ as disciples of men rather than disciples of Christ.

The Shepherding-Discipleship mentality is such that self-prideful humanity finds it appealing. Those disciples who obey are rewarded by being made shepherds over others. Thus is propagated a brutal and demeaning society governed by fear and guilt.

Though these are the extreme abuses of Shepherding-Discipleship, the mentality is the same throughout the movement. Such a mentality is critical to Kingdom Now Theology. For how can a significant portion of mankind be made to conform to the dictates of the apostles and prophets except through d guilt? No one wants to miss out on what appears to be a move of God. Ignorance on the part of those who are unsure of their relationship to God breeds indecision which, in turn, results in acquiescence to authority at the expense of their personal relationship to Christ.





Inherent Fear And Guilt

The use of fear and guilt to bring people into line with the dictates of self-appointed authority is not the exclusive property of Shepherding-Discipleship. Were we to analyze each movement germane to Kingdom Now Theology Theology we would find strong elements of such fear and guilt at the core of their structures. They all subordinate the individual's relationship to Christ to the dictates of the religious leaders. To illustrate, let's take the other movements with which we've already dealt and briefly see how fear and guilt play a part.

Identity: Fear and guilt are essential ingredients in any racist, authoritarian structure - especially where the use of para-militarism is utilized to foment hatred and threaten bloodshed.

Manifested Sons of God: Extreme fear and guilt for those who do not move forward to perfection in order that the Kingdom of God may be established.

Restoration: A strong condemnation of utilizing judgment breeds guilt in those who question the teachings of others, resulting in fear that God's displeasure will be the consequence. This applies even to the righteous judgment of sin and doctrinal error.

Reconstruction: Guilt results from not becoming involved in attempting to establish the Kingdom of God through politics and other societal strategies.

Charismatic Renewal: Guilt is instilled in those who balk at attempts to meld them into unity with others whose doctrines are seriously in conflict with Scripture. This results in a fear of God's displeasure for hampering unity, and fear of men's reprisals for speaking out against error.

Positive Confession: Fear that if one doesn't act and speak in a prescribed manner God will not answer. Guilt that one's faith is deficient should his prayers not be answered to his satisfaction.

These are sketchy but accurate assessments of how religion based on fear and guilt has encroached upon the modern Church. The individual relationship of the Christian with his Savior is a sacred trust to be nurtured and strengthened by the teaching and counsel of the elders in his church. While the corporate expression of faith is vital to the life of the Church, that life is only as strong as the strength of the individual links in the corporate chain.

The subordination of the individual to the corporate body at the expense of individuality actually weakens the Church in its ability to stand against deception and, ultimately, even against the overt evil influences of the world. [ For the whole article go to source: http://www.geocities.com/~contenders/kingdom4.htm ]

[lighthouse]

http://www.newswithviews.com/PaulProctor/proctor3.htm



CHURCH MEMBERSHIP COVENANTS

Paul Proctor

August 23, 2002

NewsWithViews.com



Rick Warren, pastor of Saddleback Community Church in Lake Forest, California recently came out with an article in the Baptist Press recommending pastors and congregations adopt church membership covenants as a way of compelling their flock to become more involved in and committed to the ministry of their church. Although, on the surface such covenants might seem practical, here’s what Jesus Christ had to say about making covenants with men.



"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, SWEAR NOT AT ALL; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: "- Matthew 5:33-34 (emphasis added).



In Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary, he makes the following point:



"The worse men are, the less they are bound by oaths; the better they are, the less there is need for them."



When a church becomes dependent upon carnal mechanisms for spiritual motivation rather than the power and conviction of the Holy Spirit, contracts become fashionable among frustrated pastors who find it necessary to coerce members into carrying out the church’s ministry. Those who are led by the Spirit of God don’t need to sign on some dotted line guaranteeing their faithfulness. Those who aren’t led by the Spirit have no business in a Christian ministry to begin with. We don’t sign contracts guaranteeing our commitment to Christ for our salvation. So, why is it now necessary to sign a contract guaranteeing our commitment to serve in His church? Because faith isn’t required, that’s why. It’s only when you set out to fill your church with the faith-LESS that guarantees become necessary.



Saddleback, one of the "cue ball" churches in the purpose-driven/seeker-sensitive/church growth movement has been at the forefront of promoting unbiblical ideas like this over the past decade along with Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Illinois. Under the banner of Christ these "men of faith" rely on marketing strategies, polls, opinions, experimentation, psychology, consensus, compromise, consultants and "worshiptainment" to draw and hold large numbers of "unchurched" people into their "worship centers" each week to "get connected" with their "felt needs" and finances. In spite of the fact that such things have little or nothing to do with repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, church growth gurus like Rick Warren and Bill Hybels have marketed all sorts of psychological contraptions to the Body of Christ through their member associations, leadership conferences and self-help books like "The Purpose Driven Church" and "Honest To God" as biblically acceptable ways of "doing church".



Let me begin by stating upfront that Jesus Christ never commissioned His followers to go out into the world and "church" lost people. Nowhere in scripture will you find the Lord or any of His Apostles attempting to lure and entice the lost into the first century church. That was NEVER our Lord’s intention. The church was created WITH and FOR the REDEEMEND ONLY -- not for the faithless, rebellious and unrepentant. It only became the primary place for the lost to hear the Gospel preached because church members throughout the 20th century couldn’t maintain enough faith and courage to talk about Jesus Christ outside the church sanctuary. So, for decades now, instead of Christians inviting the lost to Christ with an open Bible, a convicting Spirit and a working knowledge of scripture, we’ve been inviting them to church instead to hear our pastor do what we ourselves should have been doing all along. Imagine what would become of our military if recruiters bribed civilian passersby into putting on a uniform, taking a loaded gun and boarding the next plane to Iraq to fight Saddam Hussein and his minions over in Baghdad. Bribing the lost into spiritual service armed with little more than human wisdom, strength and talent to battle Satan and his demons on the streets of America is just as ridiculous and destructive. To say it defeats the purpose of the church would be a gross understatement. Ultimately, church attendance, membership, personal sacrifice and service should be the RESULT of one’s salvation, not a means to obtaining it. If it becomes the latter, it eventually corrupts, confuses and degrades the church as a whole and undermines its divine purpose.



Because of a growing scriptural ignorance among today’s believers, many dumbed-down Christians from the church growth movement (CGM) simply take the misguided word of pop culture pontificators like Warren and Hybels as gospel and embrace their Christian-flavored psychobabble without ever opening their bibles to investigate its legitimacy.



My focus today, however, is primarily on pastor Warren’s Church Membership Covenant concept. He includes this covenant in the following Baptist Press article for readers to consider as a useful instrument for today’s church.



Church Membership Covenant: Expect What the Bible Expects http://www.baptistpress.com/bpfeature.asp?ID=676



Consisting of four basic promises it includes twelve brief clarifications and accompanying scripture references. If agreed to, it could send an entire church down the road to spiritual defeat whether the parking lot is full or not.



Note: My brief comments follow each of the various commitments below in parenthesis to demonstrate the potential for confusion, deceit and disaster. In the interest of time and space, I did not include all of the scripture references he listed just the ones that are problematic by their misapplication.



"(1.) I WILL PROTECT THE UNITY OF MY CHURCH" (Unity occurs automatically when church members consistently obey scripture not when they make covenants with men, ignore heresy and accept sinful behavior.)



(a) "...By acting in love toward other members" (Is love defined here by the CGM as going along to get along i.e., compromise?)



(b) "...By refusing to gossip" (Does that include challenging, questioning or criticizing any unbiblical teaching or behavior by a pastor, teacher or staff member?)



(c) "...By following the leaders" (Regardless of their error or deceit?)



Warren’s scripture reference:

"Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be no advantage to you." - Heb. 13:17



Just as Romans 13 is so often misused today to persuade us that we should blindly obey those given governmental authority over us, even if it goes against God’s Word and Will (as tragically demonstrated by the rise and reign of Adolph Hitler over Germany during WW II), Hebrews 13 CAN BE and OFTEN IS misused in the same way regarding leadership and "followship" in the church. Having come from a Willow Creek member church myself whose pastor regularly deceived and abused his flock by dedicating much, if not most of his "ministry" time consolidating for himself a political powerbase from which every decision he made could be forced upon the church body without question or discussion, I understand all too well the danger of absolute power. You see -- Rick Warren’s church membership covenant makes no exception here for errant pastors, staff members or teachers who disobey or disavow scripture to carry out some other agenda. This is an open door for corruption, especially in a church that is scripturally illiterate and emotionally driven.



"(2.) I WILL SHARE THE RESPONSIBILITY OF MY CHURCH" (as defined by whom, the pastor, the church staff or the Word of God?)



(a) "...By praying for its growth" (The word its could imply inanimate objects like bank accounts, credit lines, buildings, property, programs and church rolls instead the spiritual growth of individual believers.)



(b) "...By inviting the unchurched to attend" (Inviting the lost to attend your church is NOT the great commission. Inviting them to Christ IS.)



(c) "...By warmly welcoming those who visit" (Regardless of their attitude, behavior or agenda?)



Warren’s scripture reference:

"So, warmly welcome each other INTO THE CHURCH, just as Christ has warmly welcomed you; then God will be glorified." - Rom. 15:7 (emphasis added)



Using a version of scripture Warren designates as "LB", (Living Bible?) Warren obligates signers to welcome anybody and everybody into the church regardless of their reason for being there. Notice that he never clarifies whether he’s referring to the Body of Christ, the church building or a worship service. First of all, the two "Living" translations I found online never used the words "into the church". So, I don’t know WHERE he came up with that. Maybe there is some other version called "LB" that I don’t know about. Even still -- if THIS conveniently edited "version" of scripture is what pastor Warren is using to justify anybody and everybody being welcomed "into the church", it is another example of how the Word of God can be twisted into saying what someone needs it to say at any given time. Using the King James Version, you can clearly see that Paul was instructing Christians to "...receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God" -- (whether circumcised or not) God is not glorified by the lost and unrepentant. So, Paul is obviously instructing us here to receive anyone redeemed by the blood of Christ not just anybody and everybody regardless of their spiritual condition or position. Even though welcoming the lost to worship with you might be entirely appropriate for purposes of them hearing the Gospel preached, there is no command here to receive the faithless and unrepentant as you would a brother or sister in Christ. This is how the Hegelian Dialectic is carried out in the Apostate church today; to water-down the gospel message, create fellowship between good and evil (redeemed and lost) and grieve the Holy Spirit. Thesis (saved) + antithesis (lost) = synthesis (Apostate Church) Remember all it takes is a little leaven. (1st Corinthians 5)



"The Master said to the servant, 'Go out to the roads and country lanes, and urge the people there to come so my house will be full." - Luke 14:23 (NCV).



This scripture reference Warren provides for his second of four commitments is grossly misused. "My house" as it is used here refers to the Kingdom of God, which can only involve the redeemed. Jesus was not commanding us here to fill our church’s "worship center" with the lost. He made it perfectly clear at the beginning of His parable in verse 15 that He was talking about "the Kingdom of God" (Heaven) not a church building on Sunday morning. Unfortunately, those whose "Christian faith" is grounded in group-think and emotion instead of the Word of God don’t recognize heresy when it’s staring them in the face. What’s more -- this particular error (instructing believers to essentially fill the church with anybody any way they can) is the driving philosophy behind the entire seeker-sensitive church growth movement, a philosophy that I believe reveals its spiritual illegitimacy.



"(3.) I WILL SERVE THE MINISTRY OF MY CHURCH" (Just what is your church’s ministry becoming a wealthy and entertaining mega-church or serving God by obeying His Word?)



(a) "...By discovering my gifts and talents" (The bible does not teach self-discovery or encourage the use of human talent to grow a church.)



(b) "...By being equipped to serve by my pastors" (Even if they are following the flesh and the devil?)



(c) "...By developing a servant's heart" (The phrase servant’s heart is an ambiguous CGM term which could imply one’s cooperation with and dedication to some other agenda whether biblical or not. Again, another open door for evil to enter and corrupt.)



"(4.) I WILL SUPPORT THE TESTIMONY OF MY CHURCH" (Even if it strays from the truth?)



(a) "...By attending faithfully" (Faithfully attending what?)



(b) "...By living a godly life" (Undefined -- ambiguous)



(c) "...By giving regularly" (Again, undefined ambiguous).



The bottom line is this: Once you’ve signed a church membership covenant and boarded the CGM train -- you’re committed to its destination, even if it changes direction somewhere along the way. This is why Jesus commands us in Matthew 5:33-34 to not make oaths with men because when it’s all said and done we might find ourselves following the wrong god.



"Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord " (Jeremiah 17:5)

[BusyMom]

Great information Lighthouse! Thanks!

:thumb

[lighthouse]

:(:

[lighthouse]

bumped for sparrow

[His Sparrow]

Thanks Lighthouse. As usual you've gone right to the heart of the matter. I'll be forwarding your article to several of my friends.