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Timothy
October 23rd, 2003, 03:23 PM
The subject line is bold, and is somewhat "controversial." According to the word of God, rightly divided, it is also TRUE - due to the eternal security that we have in Christ, anyone who is saved DOES have a "license to sin."

STOP! Now, before any of you have a knee-jerk reaction and GROSSLY misunderstand me, I am making a SHARP DISTINCTION between HAVING the license and acting on or abusing the license. Please read on.


THE SOURCE OF CONFUSION

I've seen and participated in several threads related to eternal security. In every one of them, the source of confusion basically comes down to a failure to rightly divide the word of God. If it can be rightly divided, it follows that it can be wrongly divided. When the word of God is wrongly divided, it results in confusion.

II Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The general failure in understanding eternal security is to recognize the dispensational distinctiveness of Paul's gospel and his Apostleship. This failure results in the mixing of prophecy and the mystery, the mixing of law and grace, the mixing of Israel and the body of Christ, and even the mixing of the second coming and the rapture. The general failure is to recognize that the gospel of grace and eternal security were (first) revealed to Paul.

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of

Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began

Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel

II Timothy 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel

Ephesians 3:2-3 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery...

Those are just a few examples where Paul makes a shart distinction of his gospel, and of the mystery which was revealed first to him, and of the dispensation of grace which was given to us, through Paul. Don't confuse generic grace, and attribute of God, with the gospel of grace, and salvation by grace through faith.


SALVATION THROUGH THE AGES

As we now have the benefit of the completed word of God, we know the "full story" about salvation through the ages:

BASIS: The basis of salvation in every age has been the blood of Christ
MEANS: The means of salvation is always faith
OBJECT: The object of faith is always God
CONTENT: The content of faith and salvation is dependent on the particular revleation the God gave at that time

The last item is key - what was the content at the given time. What were they told or required to do, what did they know. For example, it is quite a common error to take Paul's epistles and "read" them "back into" earlier books.


UNDERSTANDING TRUE GRACE

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

Paul's gospel was about grace, and grace alone, period. It is by grace we are justifed through Christ (not anything of ourselves or our works). Grace is done freely and is a gift from God.

Romans 5:15-20 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound

The focus of grace is entirely on Him, not us. It is what He did for us. We are "His workmanship."


GRACE VS. WORKS

One of the hardest things to get in our head's is that grace and works are diametrically opposed.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Paul makes it so clear that there can be no argument - the minute you introduce an ounce of works with grace, it ceases to be grace, period. There are three ways that works are often falsely mixed with grace, by saying that:

1 - Works are involved with getting saved
2 - Works are involved proving you are saved
3 - Works are involved with staying saved

In each of these, if works are involved with grace, it is no longer of grace. One of the reasons that works are often mixed with grace is our flesh and its pride. Our flesh is corrupted by sin. our flesh wants you to think that you are "really not that bad of a person," or that you "could never do something like that." It is important to remember that there are not just two types of works (i.e. bad and good). Someone who is saved can have three types of works - bad, good produced from the flesh, and good produced from the spirit. There's really no difference between bad works and good works produced from the flesh, both are an abonimation to God. Paul's gospel of grace is clear as to how we are to think of our flesh under grace:

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We are to view ourselves as God sees us, through Christ. We are to view (reckon = know) ourselves as being dead to sin. The sin issue is done, it's taken care of by Christ. Grace is about resting in Christ, because we are eternally secure in what's He's done for us.


OBJECTIONS IN PAUL'S OWN DAY

Paul's gospel of grace was new, kept secret, and people didn't understand it then, as some today still don't today. The same objections to grace and eternal security that are used today, were used in Paul's own day.

Romans 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace?....

Paul's response to the objections was clear:

Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Paul is saying Just because you do have a license to sin (because we are already dead to sin), that doesn't mean you should continue like you were before or abuse it, so grace will abound.


STANDING IN GRACE VS. FALLING FROM GRACE

Romans 5:1 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Paul continually talks about "standing" in his epistles. It is always about standing (mentally recognizing and applying) a doctrine what what Christ has done for us. In the verse above, it talks about "standing in grace," which is what He has done for us, freely. If you can "stand in grace" it follows that you can fall from grace. Neither standing in grace or falling from grace, though, is in regards to your salvation. It is about what one does with their Christian life after they are saved. When you fall from grace, you are not acting as who you really are, in Christ.

Someone can "fall from grace" in two ways.

1 - SIN: The first example of falling from grace is also the most common objection used to eternal security. It is a Christian, who for whatever reason, willfully chooses a life of sin after they are saved. Paul discusses a Christian that has chosen a life of fornication.

I Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

What does Paul instruct regarding this fornicating Christian? Put them out, let them go destruct their fleshly existence. He clearly indicates that they are still saved. They are still saved, because grace is about grace, not their works, good or bad. They are still saved.

2 - WORKS: The second example of "falling from grace" is by adding works.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

This second way of falling from grace, the Galtians example, is harder to understand, because is is not so "obvious" as something like fornication. The error of the Galatians was a failure to rightly divide the word of truth. It is imperative to note that what the Galatians were practicing was scriptural, but it was not dispensational. The things they did were in scripture, but it was not not dispensational - they were not for today. They mixed law and grace, two different programs from God.

I realize this is quite hard to swallow, but it is humbling to note that you can "fall from grace" by willfully living a life of sin, AS WELL AS wrongly dividing the Bible - by mixing works with grace. You can be scriptural about something, but not dispensational, and "fall from grace" JUST THE SAME.

When works are mixed with grace, grace is being frustrated. It is taking away from what grace really is, and reducing or limiting it.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Paul is quite clear in telling the "foolish Galatians" on how to stand. They don't stand on their own merits or works but Christ, and the liberty he's given us, by being dead to sin.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.


GOD'S JUSTICE

Many ask "where is God's justice for the person that lives a life of sin after being saved?" Paul is quite clear where God's justice is:

I Corinthians 13:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

At the judgement seat of Christ, the life of the believer after they were saved will be made manifest. Everything will be tried by fire, but everyone is still saved, and some will suffer loss of rewards.

The "typical" example of the person that lived the life of sin will suffer loss, but is still are saved. What about someone like the Galatians? I realize it is hard to swallow, but the same is also true. It is humbling to note that the works of anyone like the Galatians will also burn at the judgement seat of Christ. Paul clearly says the Galatians "did not obey the truth," etc. So without question, works not based on truth will burn.


GRACE ATTITUDE = GRATITUDE

Some ask "so what about good works under grace?"

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them

Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ

Colossians 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Under grace, good works are the END result, the OUTPUT. Good works are not an INPUT (to salvation). Good works are the natural reaction to being given the greatest gift that you could possibly be given. Remember, we are dead to sin, the sin issue is taken care of. Notice that good works are an OUTPUT of being thankful and of being his workmanship.

Under grace our attitude should be thankfulness. Our attitude should "abound with thanksgiving." You could say that our grace attitude = gratitude.


SUMMARY

Under grace, the issue of sin is taken care of by Christ. We do, by definition of grace, have a "license to sin." Now, the natural reaction to such a gift as grace is to be thankful, not abuseful. Yes, there are some who do choose to abuse grace, and they WILL answer for it, and suffer loss, at the judgement seat of Christ.

Now why would some people abuse grace, consciously? I sincerely believe that when the message of grace is polluted with works, like the Galatians did, that this directly leads some people to go back into a life of sin or turning their back to God. Why? Their actions are the direct output of the law. As Paul says, the "law works wrath." Putting yourself back under the law makes one feel bitter, disappointed, and defeated, because you can NEVER keep it, you always FAIL. When works are combined with grace, it also scripturally begs the question of salvation. When I came to understood what true grace is, for a few fleeting moments, I actually questioned when I was truly saved.

When you fall, you are not standing in your Godly created position in Christ. Christian's actually do "exercise" God's grace and the "license to sin" daily. We all fall down and sin. The issue is what are you going to do when you fall? The choice is two fold. We could either continue to lay on the ground, or you could stand back up in Christ. Unfortunately, that is the "self esteem" problem of some Christians, including me (in the past). We fail to see ourselves as God sees us, in Christ.

Philippians 3:13-16 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. Brethren, be followers together of me...

I would encourage you to read Romans chapters 1 through 8, TWICE. Preferably, with a KJV, as some of the wording is "stronger." Read it first, while mentally assuming while you read that eternal security is a fact. Go back and read it a second time, this time mentally assuming while you read that eternal security is not true. You will struggle the second time. About 15 years ago, someone gave me that same challenge.

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Now I'm tired!! :dizzy

blitzkreig
October 23rd, 2003, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Timothy
The subject line is bold, and is somewhat "controversial." I nominate this for understatement of the year :D:

I prefer to think of it as "forgiven" to completion.

One thing that a lot of folks miss is the fact that "Faith" is one of the first fruits (of Sanctifying) "Grace"... as all good does come from God.

The jury is still out on your statement "you have voluntarily removed yourself from a unconditional program" as that is a contradiction in terms from my perspective.

Timothy
October 23rd, 2003, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by blitzkreig The jury is still out on your statement "you have voluntarily removed yourself from a unconditional program" as that is a contradiction in terms from my perspective.

Good catch. Very bad wording on my part, so I edited that sentence out. What I was attempting to say is that someone who puts themself back under the law, is simply not acting as who they are in Christ. The are making God out to be conditional when he is unconditional. That's what I was trying to say, and I hope that this clarification makes sense.

LaMontre
October 23rd, 2003, 04:50 PM
You weren't kidding!

Batten down the hatches!!

Thats excellent brother. Always a blessing.:thumb

Mrs. Hoppes
October 24th, 2003, 12:24 AM
:tape

tractsforchrist
October 24th, 2003, 02:03 AM
See I so desperately want to believe this but I always got to think............what if this is wrong. This is more difficult to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus is God. So I try to make myself safe via Armenian and the Calvanism way so I am assured at all times.

Medic911
October 24th, 2003, 10:44 AM
I've always felt it was a rather moot issue anyway... given the fact that a Christian should ideally follow God out of love rather than fear. A respectful fear is good, but just like our own children, He wants us to be obediant not out of fear but out of devotion.

I wouldn't want to think that my son only does good things because he fears punishment. I'd far rather believe that he does good things because he wishes to please me, his dad.

I believe that God is the same way.

I certainly respect and fear God's wrath (the Bible says this is the beginning of wisdom, as I recall)... but I serve Christ out of love and total devotion. Whether I have this so-called eternal license is completely irrelevant to my behavior. Give it to me or take it away; it will not alter my behavior one iota. If it did, I never loved Him.

blitzkreig
October 24th, 2003, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by tractsforchrist
See I so desperately want to believe this but I always got to think............what if this is wrong. This is more difficult to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus is God.

Actually this is fairly easy to find support for this in the Bible... because it is not wrong and mentioned so many times in the Bible by using absolute terms. A better comparison would be trying to prove the Rapture. The proof of the Rapture is much much more thin than God's Providence. But we know that the Rapture is true.


Originally posted by tractsforchrist
So I try to make myself safe via Armenian and the Calvanism way so I am assured at all times. Exactly. Many get confused because even Calvinist preachers sound Arminian from the pulpit. It shouldn't be any other way if you think about it...


Originally posted by Medic911
I've always felt it was a rather moot issue anyway... given the fact that a Christian should ideally follow God out of love rather than fear. A respectful fear is good, but just like our own children, He wants us to be obediant not out of fear but out of devotion.

I wouldn't want to think that my son only does good things because he fears punishment. I'd far rather believe that he does good things because he wishes to please me, his dad.

I believe that God is the same way.

I certainly respect and fear God's wrath (the Bible says this is the beginning of wisdom, as I recall)... but I serve Christ out of love and total devotion. Whether I have this so-called eternal license is completely irrelevant to my behavior. Give it to me or take it away; it will not alter my behavior one iota. If it did, I never loved Him. Double exactly.

pilgrimian
October 24th, 2003, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by tractsforchrist
See I so desperately want to believe this but I always got to think............what if this is wrong. This is more difficult to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus is God. So I try to make myself safe via Armenian and the Calvanism way so I am assured at all times.

I'm safe via the salvation given freely to me as one who is elect. This doesn't mean I sin as much as I want to... (1 Peter 2:16). God saves to the uttermost (Hebrews 7:25). There is hardly any "safety" in the Arminian "way." Guilt is the gift that keeps on giving...but I opt for His unmerited grace to me.

Godspeed,
Matthew

pilgrimian
October 24th, 2003, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Medic911

I wouldn't want to think that my son only does good things because he fears punishment. I'd far rather believe that he does good things because he wishes to please me, his dad.



I would want to think that any believer is the Risen Lord would want to do "good things" because the Spirit within them is nudging them to do so. It is evidence of the Love of God that has enveloped them, not just because they're looking forward to more gems in their crown.

It seems to me that people who believe one can lose their salvation put little faith in what God can do, and what He promised to do. And at the other end these people assume that those of us who have security also live our lives with no concern or conscience. The Spirit is certainly my conscience, and leads me away from doing wrong and doing right. I don't do it because I envision blessings for me. I do it because I know it's the right thing to do.

Godspeed,
Matthew

Timothy
October 29th, 2003, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by Medic911 I've always felt it was a rather moot issue anyway...

I realize that this was not the direction of your post, but it is not a moot issue in regards to the clarity of the gospel of grace.

Grace and works are diametrically opposed in regards to salvation. When someone adds works to salvation by grace, the clarity of the grace is being clouded, and watered down, and "frustrated."

In Galatians, Paul rips the Galatians for perverting the gospel of grace, "frustrating the grace of God" and "falling from grace" (not standing as who we are in Christ).

jerbear
October 29th, 2003, 07:57 PM
Timothy is talking the truth here. You try to live under the law and not grace, and you will miserably fail every time. You will only acheive victory over the sin nature when the OBJECT of your faith is Jesus Christ and his finished work AT THE CROSS.:freaked

Indiana Janz
October 29th, 2003, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by Medic911
I've always felt it was a rather moot issue anyway... given the fact that a Christian should ideally follow God out of love rather than fear. A respectful fear is good, but just like our own children, He wants us to be obediant not out of fear but out of devotion.

I wouldn't want to think that my son only does good things because he fears punishment. I'd far rather believe that he does good things because he wishes to please me, his dad.

I believe that God is the same way.

I certainly respect and fear God's wrath (the Bible says this is the beginning of wisdom, as I recall)... but I serve Christ out of love and total devotion. Whether I have this so-called eternal license is completely irrelevant to my behavior. Give it to me or take it away; it will not alter my behavior one iota. If it did, I never loved Him.

Amen, amen and amen. :thumb

LanceVB
October 29th, 2003, 11:44 PM
Timothy, an excellent arguement.

Some thoughts:

1) If one does not view the Bible in the correct perspective, dispensations, then I believe their discernment is skewed.

An example: Psalm 52:11 Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

In that dispensation, David could lose the (endowment) of the God the Holy Spirit. We have the indwelling of G/HS. No matter how much we sin, we will never and I repeat, never lose the indwelling of G/HS.

2) From what I have studied under prepared pastor teachers, I personally believe that not getting this doctrine (dispensations) (rightly dividing the truth) will stunt the spiritual growth of many believers today.

3) Since the Bible states that we will sin as in:

1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

God in His matchless Grace gave us first 1 John 1:9:

If we (it is up to us to do this) confess our sins (as in a courtroom case), he (God the Father) is faithful and just (He will forgive us and never tire of forgiving us because of who and what He is) and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

What Salvation is to eternal life (Grace), so 1 John 1:9 is to the Christian way of life (Grace).

On eternal security: When I learned about the passive voice in the Greek, I was totaly floored. There is no wiggle room for any other way except that we are eternally secured forever when we believe in Jesus Christ.


Timothy, I am looking forward reading your thoughts in the near future.

Lance

goodboy
October 30th, 2003, 07:54 AM
That has to be one of the best, if not "THE BEST" explanations of being "Saved by Grace" that I have ever heard!

The ONLY thing that I would add, is that not only will you suffer loss of rewards in the after life for living sinfully, but you will suffer (mostly inwardly) in this life also.

GREAT POST !!!

Goodboy

Timothy
October 30th, 2003, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by LanceVB ....From what I have studied under prepared pastor teachers, I personally believe that not getting this doctrine (dispensations) (rightly dividing the truth) will stunt the spiritual growth of many believers today....

That's an excellent way of explaining it! Many years ago, someone taught me that when studying scripture, one way of studying it is to read the meaning backwards, in reverse, the opposite.

II Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

So for example, if you don't study, you will likely be ashamed at some point. If the word of truth can be rightly divided, it can be wrongly divided, etc.

Your explanation of "stunting the spiritual growth" is readily seen in Galatians. The error of the Galatians was not that they were unscriptural - they were scriptural!! They were scriptural, but they were not dispensational. They were taking something that was in the word of God and applying it today, when it is not for today. When they "frustrated" the grace of God, they were definitely limiting, cutting short or "stunting" grace. Stunting - I might have to "borrow" that from you. :D:

Originally posted by goodboy The ONLY thing that I would add, is that not only will you suffer loss of rewards in the after life for living sinfully, but you will suffer (mostly inwardly) in this life also.[/B]

Excellent point. Living sinfully has its own set of natural consequences that would come upon the believer, as well as damaging their testimony. If your testimony is tainted, who will listen?

I Timothy 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

I Thessalonians 5:21-22 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Titus 2:7-10 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you. Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

Philipppians 2:14-15 Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world

jelli<><
October 30th, 2003, 01:27 PM
IMHO, only an unbeliever would desire to have a "license to sin"

Those indwelt with the Holy Spirit are repulsed by sin, especially their own.

A believer still sins. To say that we don't would make us all liars. But, I don't think it is the constant desire of them to want to find a way to sin that's "okay".

Since the Holy Spirit hates sin, the believer will feel the grief of it because he lives in us. Not exactly a pleasant feeling to keep on sinning for.

Timothy
October 30th, 2003, 01:57 PM
Good post Jelli - all true. Grace isn't what we deserve - it is "unmerited favor." Thanksgiving is the reponse to grace, it is what generates and motivates the believer.

Colossians 3:16-17 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Grace also enables us with power. We can freely and proactively forgive others, because we are already forgiven ourselves.

Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

blitzkreig
October 30th, 2003, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by jelli<><
IMHO, only an unbeliever would desire to have a "license to sin"

Those indwelt with the Holy Spirit are repulsed by sin, especially their own.

A believer still sins. To say that we don't would make us all liars. But, I don't think it is the constant desire of them to want to find a way to sin that's "okay".

Since the Holy Spirit hates sin, the believer will feel the grief of it because he lives in us. Not exactly a pleasant feeling to keep on sinning for. Absolutely correct and worth repeating.

Werner
October 30th, 2003, 07:20 PM
Excellent thread! :): :thumb

Maranatha! :dancing

John

Zyuthalon
October 31st, 2003, 11:35 AM
Bye Bye Celibacy!!!!!

:nod :pound

Hootmon
October 31st, 2003, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by Zyuthalon
Bye Bye Celibacy!!!!!

:nod :pound You are hereby to be punished with Halibut-cy!!!!! :fish

LanceVB
November 4th, 2003, 12:26 AM
jelli<>< writes:IMHO, only an unbeliever would desire to have a "license to sin"

Those indwelt with the Holy Spirit are repulsed by sin, especially their own.

A believer still sins. To say that we don't would make us all liars. But, I don't think it is the constant desire of them to want to find a way to sin that's "okay".

Since the Holy Spirit hates sin, the believer will feel the grief of it because he lives in us. Not exactly a pleasant feeling to keep on sinning for.

Jelli, yes the Holy Spirit hates sin, and believers still sin. What is the solution? The solution is to keep short accounts with God. Meaning keep in fellowship. How? by confessing your sins to God via the promise of 1 John 1:9.

Eternal security is crucial for a believer to believe in this doctrine. As far as the constant desire, well that comes from our "flesh" or old sin nature (OSN). The OSN is habitually giving our soul temptation to sin. We can say no, and stay in fellowship, or we can say yes, thereby using our own volition we quench the Holy Spirit. The danger for the "brephas" believer is that he will not know how to confess sin to God only. The danger of the mature believer is that he may become arrogant, thereby sinning also.


But confessing our sins alone will not get us to spiritual maturity in it of itself. We must grow in grace in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. Growing in grace under a prepared PT is the way to go.

Lance:):

Shyguy
November 4th, 2003, 01:06 AM
I've always felt it was a rather moot issue anyway... given the fact that a Christian should ideally follow God out of love rather than fear. A respectful fear is good, but just like our own children, He wants us to be obediant not out of fear but out of devotion.

I must admit, that I fear more and that is ideal. Of course I was raised to fear my father more than love so that could have something to do with it .....

I'm now doubting. Am I doomed ......

tractsforchrist
November 4th, 2003, 02:18 AM
Small type because I kind of am ashamed.. I don't know if you guys noticed, but I did not post for three days. I know that sounds normal, but I have posted every day since I got here constantly. It is turning into an addiction and I know it is a sin. I have to be on the internet because my life/work is based on the internet. I finally told someone today that I was getting addicted to the internet and I felt so much better. I feel really lousy right now. I know that is a laughable addiction, but it is a very serious one to me. I have been ignoring responsibilities to be on the internet and I know it is a sin. I am trying real hard to limit myself from the internet for now on. This made me feel better today, because when I knowingly sin, I feel reaalllllllllllllll lousy. This is not the first time I have delt with a laughable addiction (I always get the real quirky ones!) but I have been freed from those after I came back to Christ. I feel defeated and unsaved because of this new addiction because you think in your head, you would not be doing this if you truly loved christ, but yet I keep on doing it. And then I get attacked by Satan putting thoughts into my head when I need to use the internet for valid reasons that I am sinning....

Workfromhomemom
November 4th, 2003, 09:57 AM
Knowing our identification "in Christ" is very crucial to spiritual growth.

We are seated in heaven already, already part of Christ's Body and our perspective is one of looking down on the earth, this life and its mess, rather than one of looking up toward heaven.

Once we get this, it takes care of all of the issues about sinning and liberty.

Once we get this, it also makes clear to us our SECURITY.

"Identification truths" are an area that has been much neglected, sadly.

Great Thread, Timothy!

:):

Zyuthalon
November 4th, 2003, 10:02 AM
On a serious note, we do NOT have a license to sin. If we were to openly sin without remorse, we would have to pay the price for it and most probably lose our salvation in Christ as well. Anyone who believes Christians have a license to sin is a fool.:tsk

Hootmon
November 4th, 2003, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Zyuthalon
On a serious note, we do NOT have a license to sin. If we were to openly sin without remorse, we would have to pay the price for it and most probably lose our salvation in Christ as well. Anyone who believes Christians have a license to sin is a fool.:tsk Having the 'license' and using it are two different things.

Timothy
November 4th, 2003, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by Zyuthalon On a serious note, we do NOT have a license to sin. If we were to openly sin without remorse, we would have to pay the price for it and most probably lose our salvation in Christ as well. Anyone who believes Christians have a license to sin is a fool.:tsk

As Hootmon already reiterated, having the license and abusing it are two VERY different things. See my original post.

Those that abuse it will suffer the loss of rewards at the judgment (bema) seat of Christ.

I Corinthians 3:11-15 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

II Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Keep in mind that salvation is by grace alone, not our works.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

The minute works are introduced as a condition of salvation, it is no longer grace. In Galtians, Paul chastises the "foolish Galatians" for mixing law/works and grace. They had "fallen from grace" by adding works. They were not standing in grace - who we are in Christ through grace.

Werner
November 4th, 2003, 01:45 PM
I think this thread goes well with your other thread Timothy!

Your Inner Conflicts – Old and New Natures (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82253)

If someone reads one, they should also read the other. :nod :wave

Very good threads! :clap

Maranatha! :dancing

John

SnoDog
December 28th, 2005, 06:14 PM
Excellent thread Timothy!

James122
December 28th, 2005, 07:32 PM
:faint



Once to every man and nation, comes the moment to decide,
In the strife of truth with falsehood, for the good or evil side;
Some great cause, some great decision, offering each the bloom or blight,
And the choice goes by forever, 'twixt that darkness and that light.

Then to side with truth is noble, when we share her wretched crust,
Ere her cause bring fame and profit, and 'tis prosperous to be just;
Then it is the brave man chooses while the coward stands aside,
Till the multitude make virtue of the faith they had denied.

By the light of burning martyrs, Christ, They bleeding feet we track,
Toiling up new Calv'ries ever with the cross that turns not back;
New occasions teach new duties, time makes ancient good uncouth,
They must upward still and onward, who would keep abreast of truth.

Though the cause of evil prosper, yet the truth alone is strong;
Though her portion be the scaffold, and upon the throne be wrong;
Yet that scaffold sways the future, and behind the dim unknown,
Standeth God within the shadow, keeping watch above His own.

-- James Russell Lowell




.

heavenbound4u
December 29th, 2005, 03:46 PM
2 Corinthians 5:17 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

carmen
December 29th, 2005, 03:55 PM
:spy

LoveHim
December 29th, 2005, 04:12 PM
I just noticed this thread. It is great, thanks.

JesusLover_2002
December 29th, 2005, 04:58 PM
Timothy?, I just read your thread and I just want to say Wow! This was really really fascinating! Thanks so much for pointing out to all of us!!

May God Bless you!!

Ponderin
December 30th, 2005, 06:36 AM
:spy



Wow! I'm so glad yawl bumped this . . . it is worth many repetes.


:):

Ponderin
December 30th, 2005, 06:41 AM
I think this thread goes well with your other thread Timothy!

Your Inner Conflicts – Old and New Natures (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82253)

If someone reads one, they should also read the other. :nod :wave

Very good threads! :clap

Maranatha! :dancing

John


Not only those, but the below links are powerful too. I'm certain no one will snatch us from His hand. They may very well even die trying. :noidea


Originally Posted by Timothy
The "gospel" advocated by Todd and Dan Corner clearly teaches a works-based salvation that is conditionally based on one's personal righteousness (works).

All of Your Sin is NOT Forgiven! (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=196907)


Rebuttal: "Eternal Security vs. Responsibility" (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=173860)




Quote:


Jesus said of his true followers that "no one can snatch them out of my hands." Philippians 1:6 states that, "...he who began a good work in you will complete it in the day of Jesus Christ."

~PDR




Hebrews 12

God Disciplines His Sons

1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. 2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

HeIsEnough
December 30th, 2005, 08:27 AM
" fix our eyes on Jesus"


:amen

John 3:16
December 30th, 2005, 08:39 AM
Excellent thread Timothy!



HI! Nice seeing you here!:wave

LoveHim
December 30th, 2005, 02:37 PM
Hi Timothy, can you explain what you mean by this. Really interested in what you mean, thanks.

The general failure in understanding eternal security is to recognize the dispensational distinctiveness of Paul's gospel and his Apostleship. This failure results in the mixing of prophecy and the mystery, the mixing of law and grace, the mixing of Israel and the body of Christ, and even the mixing of the second coming and the rapture. The general failure is to recognize that the gospel of grace and eternal security were (first) revealed to Paul.

Also, why do you think Paul say's "my gospel" instead of Christ's/God's gospel?

SnoDog
December 30th, 2005, 05:21 PM
HI! Nice seeing you here!:wave


:yo

Ponderin
December 30th, 2005, 09:30 PM
:amen

Hi James, nice to see you here. :D:



the author and perfecter of our faith


God completes what he has started in us. Those who say otherwise are liars. :tin

Amen.


Paul warned there would be those who would distort the truth in Acts. No doubt he knew what he was talking about, IMO.



25 "Now I know that none of you among whom I have gone about preaching the kingdom will ever see me again. 26 Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. 28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

James122
January 3rd, 2006, 05:58 PM
Having the 'license' and using it are two different things.

Adam and Eve had a "license to sin" planted in their midst and CHOSE to use it and their spiritual death was the result.

.

James122
January 3rd, 2006, 05:59 PM
Is repentance a "work"?

.

Dear2HIM
January 4th, 2006, 12:00 AM
Well, are we saved through repentance? If it is our repentance as in "changing our mind" as far as our sin goes, and you are counting on that to provide salvation....then yes it is a works salvation. :):

Jeanine
January 4th, 2006, 12:28 AM
Thanks Timothy. Great thread! :nod

I agree with you totally. I found through God's leading that I couldn't say YES to what God wanted me to do with my whole heart until I realized that I was free to say NO. Since I realized that I was free to say NO I've grown greatly in my desire and ability to say YES.

OK, I'm probably the only one that knows what I'm talking about here. :lol

Lars
January 8th, 2006, 07:02 AM
Thanks Timothy. Great thread! :nod

I agree with you totally. I found through God's leading that I couldn't say YES to what God wanted me to do with my whole heart until I realized that I was free to say NO. Since I realized that I was free to say NO I've grown greatly in my desire and ability to say YES.

OK, I'm probably the only one that knows what I'm talking about here. :lol

:nod That makes complete sense to me.

I'm so glad I found this thread :cool