Dilemma re submission to husband

[Leah4Jesus]

Hi guys. Over the last 2 days I have decided that after 10 years with my husband I am going to (finally) become the sort of wife I know God wants me (and all women) to be. Submissive - in a biblical sense. This is going to require a total attitude change from me, but I know with lots of prayer and learning I can do it. I'm hoping by doing this, it will impact my spiritual life as well.

Okay, so last night I talk to my husband about this. He was pretty pleased to hear me say this. Minutes after we finish talking, he mentioned to me how he knows my sister watches short "blue" movies with her husband. A sick feeling came to my stomach, because I knew that my husband was implying that he'd like to do the same. He loves God, but it not fully devoted to him. I, however, am a born-again Christian who is trying to lead as godly a life as I can. The thought of watching any such movie like that makes me sick.

My dilemma is this - do I agree with my husband to watch the movie because I know it is something he wants to do (hence I'm being submissive, right?), and knowingly sin? I know God detests these sorts of movies. Or do I refuse my husband this activity? Seeing I've only really started this "submissive journey" I am quite a novice at knowing what to do.

I do not want this filth (movies) to come into my life. So what would you recommend I do? Hope anyone can help me. :):

[cindyw]

Originally posted by Leah4Jesus
He loves God, but it not fully devoted to him. I, however, am a born-again Christian who is trying to lead as godly a life as I can. The thought of watching any such movie like that makes me sick.

My dilemma is this - do I agree with my husband to watch the movie because I know it is something he wants to do (hence I'm being submissive, right?), and knowingly sin?

Submission to your husband does not mean that you will follow him in sin. A godly wife is to be a godly example to her husband-----in all things. Knowing that your husband is not fully submitted to God and that it would be sin to watch these movies, submitting to him in this way will hurt your husband's spiritual walk and take him even farther from the Lord. I would also ask your sister not to talk about that type of thing around my husband either as it is a stumbling block for him. JMHO. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

[Mercy4Me]

If you feel that it is wrong to watch those movies, then dont do it.

Would God want you to watch them? Does He say it's acceptable to watch them? If not then your husband is going against the word of God, and you do not have to submit in this area.

God doesnt say wives are to sin to be in submission to their husbands, and if you feel this is a sin, dont do it.

[tenderheart2]

Hi Leah4Jesus,

Forgive me for my forwardness, but this question is a no-brainer.
This is an adamant NO...

If your husband is asking to take part in doing something that is clearly an ungodly thing, you are not obligated to do so. And you are submitting, to the Lord Jesus. You said your husband is a believer, but at the same time wants for you to partake of something that the Lord calls unholy? I think your husband needs to repent. If any spouse is wanting the other to do something that will offend the Lord you do not have to submit to him in doing that or else you'll be partaking in his sin as well.

Take your stand and tell him you will not do this thing because it is an offence to God and that you fear the Lord much more. I pray he will not try to make you feel guilty by rehearsing your committment to him about submission, because if he does, then he's clearly stepping out of line in trying to bring you into his sin. I will be praying that the Lord will grant you boldness in love.

Kim

[Leah4Jesus]

Thank girls you for your answers. So if ever he wants me go with him in sin I will refuse. I'm not going to displease God... especially for the sake of something that makes me sick anyway! I will have to get my husband to read a book on submission so that he understands the true meaning of it... so he doesn't just think it means me saying yes to everything he desires.

Have a good day (or I guess good night for you guys overseas).

Edited to add:

Kim, yes, when I look at it, it is a no-brainer. I've only been a Christian for one year so I am blaming that on my not-knowing-for-sure thinking. When a marriage is unequally yoked you have a whole new set of problems to work through. I guess all I can do is pray that he will submit HIMSELF to our Father, and one day become the spiritual head of our family.

Blessings.

[tenderheart2]

Hi Leah4Jesus,

Yes there is alot to learn about submission, trust me when I say I know. It took me a long time to learn how to submit to my husband in the beginning when we first married, but thanks be to God, I'm learning and still learning. But it works both ways, my husband was no angel either and he knew there were areas in his own life that needed changing too.

The most important thing you can do is to keep everything and I mean everything in prayer before the Lord. And be willing to crucify your flesh because it will be something that will challenge you more than anything. I've learned alot by doing that and I tell you there's no better feeling than obtaining the victory over your flesh by submitting to the Lord.

Just keep a tender heart before the Lord, he will never let you down.

Kim

[glorymj]

Originally posted by Leah4Jesus
my sister watches short "blue" movies with her husband. Okay, I'm gonna let my ignorance show. :D:

What in the world is a "blue" movie??:confused

[Leah4Jesus]

Sorry, glorymj, a "blue" movie is a porn flick! (so you can imagine my horror at the thought of them)

[glorymj]

Why are they called "blue" movies??

On second thought, maybe I don't want to know!! :freaked :laugh

[BHiles]

Biblical backup:

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

We are to be in subjection and obedient to those who are authority until that authority is contrary to the higher powers above it. That is what the above verse is stating. We are to be subject to them but when that authority is contrary to the Word of God (which viewing any pornography is) then we cannot obey. I am sure that there are many ways in which you can also "distract" him from any desire from wanting this form of stimulation including the age old value of simply wearing him out :):

[sandy111]

ohhhhhhhhhhh
I thought it was the blues brothers,
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
way would I watch porn!

[DeeLeeKay]

Being submissive does not mean being a doormat.


Remember, that men need to be Godly hubby's as well. They have the harder job, believe me. But, the church fails to stress this part.

Explain to him in a very sweet voice, that you are not comfortable with this, and say no to him.

I have a few suggestions to help here, but PM me as this is a VERY PUBLIC FORUM.

[cameron222]

Part of the damage done in the era we now live in was due to the women's lib movement where the idea of submission to one's husband was thrown out the window.

But yes, I do agree that you are not to "submit" to ungodly behavior, and I believe if you were forced to do so, your husband would be accountable to God for it.

One of my favorite memories is from years ago when Phyllis Schafley, an attorney and a Christian, spoke before a huge group and told the audience that she wanted to thank her husband for "allowing" her to come speak to them......she did it to goad the feminists. I loved it!!

Molly Yard and Patricia Ireland probably fell to the floor......:pound

[Leah4Jesus]

Yeah, that comment would've made the femo's sick!

My sister is one of those people that say "we live in the 21st century, people aren't like those in the Bible, we can't live like the Bible says back then" blah blah. If only society did follow the Bible as their guide to life.... no divorces, less crime etc etc. I think it's still possible to live in a biblical sense.

[tenderheart2]

It sure is possible to live as those that followed the Lord back in the times of the bible. But as it was back then the same is still today when the bible says, "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." John 3:19


Kim

[BHiles]

DeeLeeKay,

Let me give you kudos for following scripture in a discreet manor And as not to offend I do not consider you aged but perhaps matured spiritually in the Lord.

Titus 2:
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

[Mrs. Hoppes]

Good book on being a biblically submissive wife in todays world:


"The Excellent Wife" by Martha Peace.

It even covers this very subject and HOW to say no and still be submissive.

[cameron222]

I have read of studies that say that wives who submit.......are happier. :B:

[SeaDreamer]

Originally posted by cameron222
I have read of studies that say that wives who submit.......are happier. :B:

I don't know if you're kidding or not but I can attest to this. Not only is our marriage better (it feels "right" now) but I'm happier on a personal level.

I'm free. Freer to relax and be fully a woman because I'm not carrying around worries and responsibilities that aren't mine to carry. He's happier because he's able to lead. :):

[cameron222]

Adrian Rogers says the deal is not that men and women are not "equal". Its that men and women are "different."

And I am sooooo glad that my wife is "different."

The world always takes God's plan and turns it upside down. Men and women are equal, but they have different roles. However, the world wants men and women to be the "same" and the unnaturalness of that flawed concept pits men and women against each other.

[Crescendo]

Submit when he's leading your household in the will of God. If he turns from God, I think you need to then lead the house as he would have given up his role as husband and leader.

[D'Light]

Leah;

It is very common for a husband(who is not walking with the Lord), to take the 'submissive' as "you are to do what 'I' want. this is wrong. Anything that goes against God's will and against your Godly views is not right. Your husband should never have suggested that to you.

It also states in the word, that the husband is to love, honor and 'respect' the wife, something that he is not apparently doing, in this matter, anyway.

I would just calmly explain to him, that this, in your eyes and God's eyes is wrong and immoral. That being submissive, is to love him, respect him and treat him as you would want to be treated.

I have been in the same situation before, and actually am still going thru some of it. It can get very confusing, but listen to the Holy Spirit and continue to pray to God on this matter. He will lead you. Being submissive is not just doing what the hausband 'wants', but setting an example of being a Christian woman.

Bless you sweetie...it sounds like you have learned 'alot' being a fairly new Christian. :nod

[duckdogger]

In reading these posts it is clear there are many blessed husbands out there with Godly wives. Some of these husbands are wise and know the blessing they have. Others are still on the steeper part of the learning curve.

[cameron222]

Part of the submission process is designed for an unsaved husband to become saved. So saying that you do not have to submit if your husband is not saved is stretching the point somewhat.

I would agree that a wife would not have to submit to ungodly behavior, but how much bickering is a wife gonna do in pondering each command and sifting it to see whether or not it passes the "sin test?" :confused

What if a husband wants his wife to wear a red dress to a party and she hates red. Should she "submit" and wear the dress?

[Jael]

Originally posted by cameron222
Part of the submission process is designed for an unsaved husband to become saved. So saying that you do not have to submit if your husband is not saved is stretching the point somewhat.

I would agree that a wife would not have to submit to ungodly behavior, but how much bickering is a wife gonna do in pondering each command and sifting it to see whether or not it passes the "sin test?" :confused

What if a husband wants his wife to wear a red dress to a party and she hates red. Should she "submit" and wear the dress?

Cameron, there is absolutely no comparison between submitting to a request to do something that is clearly against the word of God and giving in to a request to wear a certain color.

I don't think anyone is saying a wife needn't submit if her husband is not saved...the issue is, does she submit to specific requests that require her to sin against God? The Bible clearly tells us that we should submit to earthly authorities (such as employers, husbands, parents, governments) whenever possible, but when it comes down to a conflict between obeying God or obeying man (even a lawful earthly authority), we have to choose to obey God:

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Bickering should not be an issue, because whether she can or cannot submit to a husband's request, a submissive, Godly wife will display that "meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price" (1Pe 3:4). So just because a wife chooses to obey God, rather than man, she does not have to "bicker".

As Christians, every day, we examine our own impulses and actions in the light of God's word and we make decisions about what we can and cannot do, and still be in obedience to God. This is the standard for our behavior...

Psa 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Psa 119:133 Order my steps in thy word: and let not any iniquity have dominion over me.

Whether we are being asked by our husband to view pornography, or by our employer to lie and cheat, or by our government to deny our faith, or by our parents to worship a false god, or by any other earthly authority to do something that is clearly forbidden in God's word, our responsibility is to choose God's way over man's way.

A husband is much more likely to be drawn to Lord by a wife who maintains her integrity, while still displaying a loving and submissive spirit, than by one who follows him into sin.

[Cebu63]

Perhaps there's a little confusion as to what, exactly, "It submission" means?


It doesn't mean slavery, or being a doormat, or "yes" person at every turn.

It means stepping back to allow the husband to be leader of the home.

Just as good leadesr have good counsellors, wives should be the same. When a general displays an error in judgment, his underlings may blindly obey, but his counsellors will offer him advice to verify that decision.

Submissive wives are not underlings.

[MarkD]

Okay. We need to look at some verses here.

1 Cor 7:3-4
The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

Eph 5:22-29
Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church,

Eph 5:33
Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.

Col 3:18-19
Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives and do not be embittered against them.

1 Peter 3:7
You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.

===================

I threw in that last one from 1 Peter 3:7 because it is a note of caution to husbands. Catch the last comment - "so that your prayers will not be hindered." That one has always stuck with me.


Alrighty, then. What does this all say?

First of all, most guys always see the first part of these verses - the "wives be submissive to your husbands" part. But what is the second part of all these verses?

Actually, it is multifaceted, but husbands have, essentially, the same instructions.
1. the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does
2. the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church
3. the husband is to love his own wife even as himself
4. husbands are not to be embittered against their wives
5. husbands are to show their wives honor
6. husbands are to live with their wives in an understanding way

It all boils down to this:

Wives are to be submissive to their husbands in the same way that the church is submissive to Christ.

Husbands are to lead their wives in the same way that Christ leads the church.

What was Christ's leadership model?

That of a servant leader. A husband is not to "lord it over" his wife that he is in control.

If you voice your concerns about what makes you feel uncomfortable, then the husbands proper response is to remove that concern away from you. It is not to tell you that he is in charge and make you do it anyway.

Leah4Jesus, something you said in your first post causes me concern. You said "He loves God, but it not fully devoted to him. I, however, am a born-again Christian who is trying to lead as godly a life as I can."

Now, I am not going to get into the whole unequally yoked thing here, because it may not directly relate to this situation. However, it is my experience that the men who most often take these verses out of context are the ones who:

A. Are not christians, but have stumbled across them and use them to their advantage, or
B. Are christians, but with a limited knowledge (either intentional or unintentional) of the scripture, and still use them to their advantage.

It seems that your husband may fall into the second category.

You need to be very careful when you tell your husband that you are going to lead a biblically submissive lifestyle. You need to clarify what that means to your husband and make sure he fully understands what his responsibilities are. If you are going to live by the verses listed above, then he has to also.

If he does not, your relationship will get knocked totally out of whack, and you will end up as a doormat and viewed as an underling (as Cebu said above).

I can't help but be blunt and recommend that if your husband refuses to live by the verses listed above, then I would suggest looking up the verses that apply to spouses who are married to unbelievers. Because, unfortunately, that will be the type of relationship you will be in.

[walkbyfaith]

Leah4Jesus,

There have been so many wonderful responses, that I wasn't going to post, but the Holy Spirit keeps nudging me, so here goes.

When my darling husband was a baby Christian, he stumbled :D: across the scriptures, Matthew 5:27-28 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

That scripture convicted him so profoundly that he threw away his girlie magazines (at the time, I hadn't been convicted on the issue, and wasn't bothered by it), because he knew in his heart that by looking at the magazines, watching blue movies, etc, he was committing adultery against me in his heart.

I thank God that He convicted him before me, because satan wasn't able to use it as a stumbling block in our marriage. Because, now, if he were doing this, it would hurt me profoundly, because I now know our marriage is something sacred.

Sister, you stay strong and firm, being submissive to your Messiah first and foremost on issues of sin. Pray for your husband, and if you have the kind of marriage where you can be totally honest, let him know how you feel about him watching movies like that. Give him the above scripture, if you think you should, and talk about what it means between you. I will keep you in my prayers, for your strength and for both of you to learn from this. Submission to your husband is such a wonderful thing to do, it can be so liberating for healing control freaks like me:D: , to know that we don't have to wear the weight of the world and be responsible for everything. When our husbands walk with Christ, submission can help them grow into the men that He created them to be.

Try to see this as a stumbling block, a testing ground, of your faith. God can use this to teach YOU about submission (the way it should be), and HIM how to be a Godly man.

Take care, you are in my prayers,

Barb G

[carmen]

Good thread.Originally posted by MarkD
First of all, most guys always see the first part of these verses - the "wives be submissive to your husbands" part. But what is the second part of all these verses? Mark, I was especially glad to read your post. It seems so often that the woman's role is emphasized, but the man's duty is ignored in these discussions (not that I think that has been the case here; that just seems to be a trend at times :):). I always thought that was strange, since the husband is to be the leader. It would seem more logical that his role ought to be far more emphasized that it often is.

Okay, shutting up now so I don't hijack the thread any more :tape :lol

[cindyw]

Originally posted by Jael
A husband is much more likely to be drawn to Lord by a wife who maintains her integrity, while still displaying a loving and submissive spirit, than by one who follows him into sin.


A great big :thumb

[blitzkreig]

From Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English

Submission
SUBMIS'SION, n. [L. submissio, from submitto.]

1. The act of submitting; the act of yielding to power or authority; surrender of the person and power to the control or government of another.

Submission, dauphin! 'tis a mere French word;

We English warriors wot not what it means.

2. Acknowledgment of inferiority or dependence; humble or suppliant behavior.

In all submission and humility,

York doth present himself unto your highness.

3. Acknowledgment of a fault; confession or error.

Be not as extreme in submission, as in offense.

4. Obedience; compliance with the commands or laws of a superior. Submission of children to their parents is an indispensable duty.

5. Resignation; a yielding of one's will to the will or appointment of a superior without murmuring. Entire and cheerful submission to the will of God is a christian duty of prime excellence.


In our house this means when we can't agree on the color to paint the walls, I choose. Then, we repaint the walls her color because she was right after all :rofl

[BusyMom]

In our house this means when we can't agree on the color to paint the walls, I choose. Then, we repaint the walls her color because she was right after all

Sounds like our house!!

:pound :pound

[cameron222]

I have to "submit" to all of your analysis in these posts. Very good info and analysis!!

Imagine a marriage between two Godly people, the wife in submission to a loving husband who would die for her and each reverencing the other.

The world could never in a million years achieve that kind of martial happiness!!! :):

[Leah4Jesus]

I've got to say that my question has been answered above and beyond what I thought. Thanks so much for everyone's input. I am planning on printing out all the replies to study over.

I just want to make it clear that my husband is not a porn freak! To my knowledge he doesn't watch these movies, however he told me the other night there's a clip on our computer. Hmmm, I wonder if I should look for it and delete it. I don't want that filth in my house (it's probably hidden well on the 'puter though).

I do want to give my husband a book or notes to read about men and women's roles in a marriage. So he can fully understand the meaning of "submissive" and not, as you say, think it's about me saying "yes" to things all the time. Does anyone has a suggestion about a good, simple to understand book (or part of a book) that talks about submission? Someone suggested I read "The Excellent Wife", that I am planning on buying (of course no one stocks it in Australia, so have to get from US). I might even just give these replies printed out to hubby to read.

You guys are great. Thanks again, and bless you all.

[shoer]

Tell your husband to stuff it. God gave you a brain for a reason.

[Jade]

I sent you a PM about my take on the entire passage. Please read it and consider it prayerfully.

[glorymj]

Originally posted by shoer
Tell your husband to stuff it. God gave you a brain for a reason. shoer, not only was this post inappropriate and unbiblical, it was just plain rude. :tsk

[D'Light]

Leah;

Bless you for being so patient and mature.

I just want to say one more thing, this comes from experience. I know this site is not about p...., or blue movies, persay. It is about submission.

I try to be submissive to my husband, but he is not saved. He does have a problem with p....! I have never deleted anything he had on there, but I did do a spy-ware, so that I would have proof, when I went to confront him. Because I confronted him before, and everything, he only denied. Even though, he says he would 'fix things' (?), I still did not see any changes until I started setting an example of being submissive. I did not 'tell' him I was going to be submissive, I don't know if that would be such a great idea to tell an unsaved person that.
:laugh

By my way of being submissive, some of the things I have been doing:

When I went to church last Sunday, I left a post-it note on the computer monitor, that said; "I love you very much, than-you for being my husband."

I do not check up on his possibilities of watching p...., I am handing that over to the Lord, if I continue to keep checking, I am not fully giving it to the Lord.:nod

I have been telling him for 3-4 days that I was going to make him some homemade choc. chip cookies, and I 'promised' him the next day, I would (Wed). I got busy cleaning the garage stuff out for a yard sale and ran behind on time. (church night), I did make the cookies though, and surpassed washing my hair for church(yuckie). But I told him, "I promised you something and I will not break a promise to you, my hair is not as important as you are."

......Now, I know these things may sound off the wall to some of you, but you cannot imagine the changes I am seeing in him, he is kinder, he has talked about praying for someone, we have been going to bed at the same time!

Examples work!! in submissiveness.:nod

These are just small examples...Praise the Lord.:wave

[shoer]

shoer, not only was this post inappropriate and unbiblical, it was just plain rude.

Glorymj--It may surprise you that not all things said (even by Christians! Gasp!) are Biblical. And it was appropriate--any husband who says he wants to watch a porn movie should be told in no uncertain terms that it is unacceptible. You can use all the Bible verses and nice submissive language you want, but it still comes down to "Stuff it, Sweetie."

[carmen]

Originally posted by glorymj
shoer, not only was this post inappropriate and unbiblical, it was just plain rude. :tsk I happen to agree. Regardless of whether or not your point is right (not that I am saying it is), a bit more gentleness should be used, Shoer :):

[B A N E]

Ask:
"who's he thinking about whilst watching a blue movie or later?"

There've been some fine replies in this thread.

:thumb

[Wileyzmuse]

I kind of thought Shoer's response was some levity in the midst of a very intense issue. And s/he is right...sometimes we overspiritualize things to the point where we can make the simplest things difficult.

My parents fought over the porn thing for many years. The worst thing was that I knew where all his paperback porn novels were hidden and I would sneak into their closet or behind the clothes hamper and read them whenever I got bored (I was probably a 3rd grader when I first discovered them.) I'm sure my siblings did the same thing....the damage it caused was more than just a marital faithfulness issue.

D'Light what a precious post about sumitting to your husband! I believe that more women would try to be more submissive if they heard more wonderful stories like yours. Very uplifting. Thank you.

YSIC,
Patricia