Is it possible to repent if you remarried against Jesus's wishes?

[RaptureNewbie]

While your partner is still alive, whom you unlawful remarried (by what Christ defined in the NT) is it possible to repent for such a sin?

I just don't see how it is.

I'm noticing many Calvary types have been remarried like Hal Lindsey, and that there is a very loose divorce policy there in that church.

I find this rather distrubing and it's shaken my confidence in many evangelical types out there.

I'm starting to see why Chuck Missler and Chuck Smith, are so wishy washy on the topic. I understand many on RR also go to Calvary Chapel.. is this why OSAS seems to be so popular around here?

It is my belief that repentance after falling back into sin, is only possible once you've walked away from that sin?

How can a person remaining in habitual sin be forgiven if they don't do the actions true repentance requires: walking away from that sin?

I don't get it.

What then is stopping a born again Christian from not getting remarried unlawfully according to what Christ defined?

According to OSAS, such a thing is forgiveable.. even if they never remove themselves from that situation in their lifetime...even if they die that way...OSAS says they are still forgiven.

I don't get it.

Your comments.

I don't want to debate OSAS.. I just want to know how such actions can be justified.

I want to know how this is not a license to sin.

I don't get it.

I'd appreciate a detailed response and not canned verses from your cut-n-paste.

Describe a scenario taking into account what I wrote above.

Specifically state those hypothetical outcomes, and say precisely what you mean:

e.g. - "It doesn't matter if they never repent, they are still forgiven, because once they're saved they're always saved.. no matter what they're state of repentance was at death"

Saying "they were never saved" is not an option.

Let's ASSUME they were (watch how many folks will avoid this point in particular)

:popcorn

[RaptureNewbie]

Rule For This Thread

Once again describe a hypothetical situation to back up your case... and ASSUME the folks were saved BEFORE they fell back into that habitual sin.

This is a strict requirement for this thread.

If you can't do it.. then don't bother posting to this thread.

With that said.. let the discussion begin

:popcorn

[KrispyKritter]

It is possible to repent, but I do not believe that God wants a believer to leave their new marriage. Just my humble opinion. There are those on here who believe otherwise.

As for believers who divorce and remarry after they become believers (with the exception of adultry or an unbelieving spouse who leaves a believer)... Paul makes it clear in his letters to Timothy that they are no longer qualified to be in a leadership position. Many will stone me for saying that... but it's in black in white. "The husband of one wife". Paul then goes on the explain that if a man can not manage his own family, how can he manage the family of God?

[cindyw]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
It is possible to repent, but I do not believe that God wants a believer to leave their new marriage. Just my humble opinion. There are those on here who believe otherwise.




Krispy, my DH were just talking about this again last night-----for the hundreth time!!!!!! Such a hard topic to tackle for sure and one that I speak to the Lord about frequently........

Ok, with what you said above, what do you make of Rom. 7:2-3? It appears to me that so long as the husband lives, the wife will be guilty of adultery if she stay in that situation.........Thanks for your input. Blessing in Jesus, Cindy:):

[Carolyn]

Calvary Chapel is far more strict on their policies regarding divorce than many other churchs I've been to...

A divorced person can NOT fill a pastorial possition.. or any authority/teaching possition in the Calvary Church.
(At least the ones I've been to and was told that that IS the Calvary Church policy)
Yet, I have met divorced pastor's, who are pastors in the Assembly of God church and a couple other churchs.

I find it interesting that you are pointing a finger directly toward the Calvary Chapel Church... do you have a beef with them and Pastor Smith?

Should churchs kick out all couple's who are divorced from their congregation?

[Nimrod]

Alas, you've now discovered our dirty little secret. We made up OSAS to cover for our pathetic behavior. Kudos to your investigative prowess.

Get a grip!
You've been answered many times why OSAS is "popular. I've seen no one force you to accept it. Why must you force OSAS crowd to convert? Try some kindness and love in your persuasion and drop the slander.

Peace

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by Nimrod
Alas, you've now discovered our dirty little secret. We made up OSAS to cover for our pathetic behavior. Kudos to your investigative prowess. :laugh

[SeaDreamer]

Given the situation of a believer divorcing then remarrying another believer-----wouldn't divorcing AGAIN also be a sin? :confused

[cindyw]

Originally posted by SeaDreamer
Given the situation of a believer divorcing then remarrying another believer-----wouldn't divorcing AGAIN also be a sin? :confused


I think how some of us see scripture is that if a relationship is UNLAWFUL to Jesus (as unbiblical 2nd marriages would be), then leaving that unlawful relationship would NOT be sin---it would be showing forth the fruit of repentance. JMHO. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

[faith_in_love]

I concur with SeaDreamer...I have always had questions and a very BIG interest in this subject. God DOES bind two people together who are married...albeit their first marriage or a second marriage following a divorce. The conclusion that >I< have come to after lots of thought, prayer, and questioning is: If a person does remarry after divorce (whether they are a Christian or not),
they should not leave that binding covenant. I have repented many times over my divorce...which made me question my current marriage. I don't feel that God would have me leave my current husband because my first husband is still alive. However, what I >do< feel He would have me do is...be faithful to this marriage I am in now and be a good wife and live out His will in this marriage...bring glory to Him. We are to repent of our sins and TURN AWAY from them...so I will NOT divorce again (if it at all be in my decision). Decided...not debated...turned away from my sin...determined and devoted to NOT repeat it. Now...as for the command that one should not remarry if the former spouse is still alive...or if they become a Christian or re-dedicate their life to Christ and then find themselves in this 2nd marriage...I have come to believe (now this is just for myself I don't aspire to tell anyone else what to do)...but for ME, if something does happen to my current husband and he departs this earth, of course the binds of marriage are broken. But...my first husband (probably) would still be alive. I would not remarry again...until my first husband also (if ever) died. For me...that is the conclusion that I have come to...that is what I personally feel that He would have me do...I have peace with that decision...and it has finally come to me after years of searching for answers. Like I said, I certainly don't expect anyone else to conclude that, but for me it is right...it is the right thing to do...it is certainly not sin to do that.

Cindy...no doubt you have convictions about this, too...but just another part...you would have someone repent and leave a second marriage to cause so much pain and suffering...even if children are involved? Paul says to serve the Lord in whatever circumstances you find yourself in...or whenever you come to the Lord...if you are married, don't leave...if you are not married, don't marry...etc...it is just a lot to think about...

Please more people respond to this thread...as I said I am VERY interested in this topic...I would love to hear what anyone else believes about this. Thank you so much!

faith_in_love

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by cindyw
I think how some of us see scripture is that if a relationship is UNLAWFUL to Jesus (as unbiblical 2nd marriages would be), then leaving that unlawful relationship would NOT be sin---it would be showing forth the fruit of repentance. JMHO. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

... and creating havoc and confusion for whatever offspring resulted from this new union. I have to disagree.

[blitzkreig]

Mat 19:25-26
(25) When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
(26) But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

[cindyw]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
... and creating havoc and confusion for whatever offspring resulted from this new union. I have to disagree.

Krispy, you didn't answer my question to you?
edited to add:

What about Ezra 9-10 Krispy? Does God care more of our children today than He did back then?

[matheteou]

Shouldn't have posted!

[cindyw]

Originally posted by faith_in_love
.but for ME, if something does happen to my current husband and he departs this earth, of course the binds of marriage are broken. But...my first husband (probably) would still be alive. I would not remarry again...until my first husband also (if ever) died. For me...that is the conclusion that I have come to...that is what I personally feel that He would have me do...I have peace with that decision...

Hi faith,

I appreciate your willingness to talk about this in a level headed manner. I know this is a very difficult topic. I do have a question concerning your above statement. If you believe that a second marriage would be lawful in God's eyes, you would have to believe that your first was dissolved. Why would you then be bound to wait until your first husband died if that marriage was lawfully dissolved?

Originally posted by faith_in_love
.Cindy...no doubt you have convictions about this, too...but just another part...you would have someone repent and leave a second marriage to cause so much pain and suffering...even if children are involved? Paul says to serve the Lord in whatever circumstances you find yourself in...or whenever you come to the Lord...if you are married, don't leave...if you are not married, don't marry...etc...it is just a lot to think about...
faith_in_love

I would also direct you to Ezra 9-10. God COMMANDED the men of Israel to divorce their foreign wives and leave their children by them behind. It seems terrible to me, but that is what was demanded from them in repentance for their disobedience. I personally, would not have someone do something so hurtful, but I am not God----and we are not bound to each other's will or our own, we, as believers, need to be bound to God's Will according to His Word.

Concerning "whatever circumstances you find yourself in".......yes, we have discussed this in the Apologetics forum in the Adultery/homosexuality thread and I think on a couple of older threads here. I guess it boils down to this: If you are in a lawful marriage (in God's eyes), then yes, stay in it and serve the Lord faithfully. However, Jesus defined what Lawful marriage was----any union outside that is either fornication or adultery---no matter what name society applies to it. God's standard/definition of sin is what we must follow. In that thread the argument has been made: If a homosexual is in a committed relationship (even with children), is it then ok for them to remain in that relationship AFTER coming to Jesus? If not, why? If Jesus labelled one sexual sin "adultery", named another "homosexuality"-----shouldn't we stop these sins after coming to Him, not remain in them (repent) and then serve Him? Do you understand? Another thing to consider: Does our salvation turn something sinful into something now lawful?

Believe me, I am pretty staunch about remarriage AFTER coming to faith in Jesus being adultery (continuing sin), BUT what was done BEFORE salvation I have a hard time with. What I have a hard time reconciling is what I posed to you above about the "new creature" and continuing in said sins.........Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

[Medic911]

Is it possible to repent after you've killed someone? (King David comes to mind, for example)

You can't bring them back, after all.


;):

[cindyw]

Originally posted by Medic911
Is it possible to repent after you've killed someone? (King David comes to mind, for example)

You can't bring them back, after all.


;):


Absolutely. David did. There was no way he could make restitution or go back and undo his sin. Repentance, if possible, requires STOPPING the sin. If you had someone on the side-----what would repentance require-----saying sorry, I won't do it again and go back and keep doing it?

[Chris4Christ]

I couple of comments about your post, RN.

Originally posted by RaptureNewbie
I'm noticing many Calvary types have been remarried like Hal Lindsey, and that there is a very loose divorce policy there in that church.

I find this rather distrubing and it's shaken my confidence in many evangelical types out there.

I'm starting to see why Chuck Missler and Chuck Smith, are so wishy washy on the topic. I understand many on RR also go to Calvary Chapel.. is this why OSAS seems to be so popular around here?
Hal Lindsey is not a Calvary pastor. And the phrase "Calvary-type" really has no meaning. I mean, the guy is not affiliated with Calvary, so what's your point? Why are you trying to connect a situation (Hal's divorce) to Calvary Chapel when there is, in fact, no connection? It doesn't make a bit of sense to me. There are no Calvary pastors that I know of that are divorced.

And just because Chuck Missler and Chuck Smith may have different opinions on certain issues than you, it certainly does not mean that they are "wishy-washy." To be honest with you, I find that statement laughable. Those are two of the least wishy-washy men I've had the pleasure to hear speak.

I don't want to debate OSAS..
You say you don't want an OSAS debate, but your entire post is regarding divorce in light of the OSAS belief, so I'm entirely baffled as to what you're seeking. You can talk in terms of OSAS -- "license to sin" -- but you don't want anybody else to respond to it? :confused

[Ynott]

The Ezra passage dealt with unbelievers marrying believers.

What about the twelve tribes of Israel? There were FOUR mothers there and ALL were married.

So, everyone but Leah's children were illegitimate and the rest were all sinning?

Just a question. I have no answers.

But clearly there is "wiggle room" on this issue of concurrent LEGAL wives.

[RaptureNewbie]

Originally posted by Medic911
Is it possible to repent after you've killed someone? (King David comes to mind, for example)

You can't bring them back, after all.


;):

Well you can only kill someone once ;):

[Medic911]

Once you've "taken someone as your wife" (assuming the above scenerio), the sin is committed. They are your wife, and to divorce them would only be to commit a second sin. There are several Biblical examples of people who sinfully took wives against God's Will, and then repented... but they didn't divorce the new wife after they repented. They may have been cursed for their actions, but God recognized their new marriage, even if He didn't approve.

[Ynott]

Yup, that's where I was going too, Medic.:nod

[RaptureNewbie]

Originally posted by Chris4Christ
I couple of comments about your post, RN.

And just because Chuck Missler and Chuck Smith may have different opinions on certain issues than you, it certainly does not mean that they are "wishy-washy." To be honest with you, I find that statement laughable. Those are two of the least wishy-washy men I've had the pleasure to hear speak.


They can't seem to make up their mind, therefore they are wishy-washy.

Chuck Missler is a good friend of Hal Lindsey.. therefore, I can imagine how uncomfortable it would be for him to tell it to his buddy strait.

I think Chuck has enough good sense not to get unlawfully remarried if such an unfortunate day would come.

By the looks of it, he's got a fantastic marriage now, and has learned from his past mistakes.

I'm a big fan of Chuck.. but not his wishy washy position.

God is not wishy washy.

There are absolutes.. and neither Chuck has the guts to upset people with THIS truth.

I have no problem doing that.

No whale will ever swallow me whole.

I've got an aunt, who will no doubt ask me one day what I thought about her remarriage.

I will simply tell her..read what Jesus said in the book of Matthew.. and remind yourself that Jesus is God, and that God is perfect.

At which point my hands are washed clean of the matter.

[RaptureNewbie]

Originally posted by Medic911
Once you've "taken someone as your wife" (assuming the above scenerio), the sin is committed. They are your wife, and to divorce them would only be to commit a second sin. There are several Biblical examples of people who sinfully took wives against God's Will, and then repented... but they didn't divorce the new wife after they repented. They may have been cursed for their actions, but God recognized their new marriage, even if He didn't approve.

Show me then.

How do you reconcile this with what Jesus said.

[RaptureNewbie]

Originally posted by Chris4Christ
You say you don't want an OSAS debate, but your entire post is regarding divorce in light of the OSAS belief, so I'm entirely baffled as to what you're seeking. You can talk in terms of OSAS -- "license to sin" -- but you don't want anybody else to respond to it? :confused [/B]

My second post on this thread is what I want.

I want to talk about this in practical terms, and how God could possibly allow such a continous sin to go unrepented, and yet somehow allow folks into heaven, who never repent.

One can certainly be saved.

One can certainly later divorce and remarry unlawfully in Jesus's eyes.

One can certainly repent, but removing themselves.

The act of removing oneself from a sinful situation would be fruit of such repentance.

Unlawful marriages which are broken were never honored by God in the first place.

It's pretty straitforward if you ask me.

[Chris4Christ]

Originally posted by RaptureNewbie
They can't seem to make up their mind, therefore they are wishy-washy.

Chuck Missler is a good friend of Hal Lindsey.. therefore, I can imagine how uncomfortable it would be for him to tell it to his buddy strait.
So that's why you went into a spiel (sp) about Calvary Chapel, because Chuck Missler is friends with Hal Lindsey? :laugh

RN, you say these things as if you know Chuck Missler. I really don't think you're in a position to say what would or would not be comfortable for Chuck Missler. I mean, I think you're really impugning his integrity to suggest that he would lie to somebody about such a thing simply because the truth makes him uncomfortable.

I'm a big fan of Chuck.. but not his wishy washy position.
You only perceive his "position" as wishy-washy because you don't agree with it.

God is not wishy washy.

There are absolutes.. and neither Chuck has the guts to upset people with the truth.
Yes, there are absolutes, but don't be too sure that you've got them all by the tail.

Chuck is very clear about divorce. What you seem to disagree with is his position on remarriage/repentance and what that entails. But that's all it is...a disagreement. It's not "you're right and he's wrong," or "he's wishy-washy while you're upright."


"neither Chuch has the guts to upset people with the truth."

RN, do you hear what you're saying? Do you see what a horrible judgment you are making against this man with absolutely no proof? Goodness, I'm shocked. That's all I can say.

[RaptureNewbie]

That said.. I can imagine how difficult that would be for those married to sin (no pun intended).. but only if you value your earthly existance more than your eternal.

God promised to wash away every tear.. so such pain is temporary.

Those who love this world more than the next have no place in God's kingdom.

I'm really shocked that not many on this board don't state such facts so bluntly.

It's not hard if you got your eye on Heaven.

I'm sorry if that sounds insensitive.

Live is too short for wishy washy hellbound platitudes

[Ynott]

Murder is a sin.

Show me how you can "UN murder" somebody.

You can't. You repent and are forgiven.

Divorce is wrong.

So, if you "remarry" (a sin in this context), then you sin....and if you divorce, then you also sin....

One sin cannot undo another sin....It's just two sins.

You can only repent. That's my take on it.

[Chris4Christ]

Originally posted by RaptureNewbie
My second post on this thread is what I want.

I want to talk about this in practical terms, and how God could possibly allow such a continous sin to go unrepented, and yet somehow allow folks into heaven, who never repent.

One can certainly be saved.

One can certainly later divorce and remarry unlawfully in Jesus's eyes.

One can certainly repent, but removing themselves.

The act of removing oneself from a sinful situation would be fruit of such repentance.

Unlawful marriages which are broken were never honored by God in the first place.

It's pretty straitforward if you ask me.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see it. It's still a OSAS/OSnAS debate no matter how you package it.

[blitzkreig]

RaptureNewbie you seem to be looking for a "one size fits all" answer for some of your questions.

While certainly some of God's Decrees are absolute (thinking of God's Moral dictates with respect to what is and isn't a sin) not every question about how to resolve the jack-pot someone finds themselves in which is put before God has exactly the same circumstances and therefore the same answer... even some of the Moral issues.

Now that may sound "wishy-washy" to you but I can assure you that God is not without compassion ...

[RaptureNewbie]

RN, you say these things as if you know Chuck Missler. I really don't think you're in a position to say what would or would not be comfortable for Chuck Missler. I mean, I think you're really impugning his integrity to suggest that he would lie to somebody about such a thing simply because the truth makes him uncomfortable.


I believe I said I can "imagine". ;):


You only perceive his "position" as wishy-washy because you don't agree with it.


No, because he doesn't have a single position.

He's dancing between two and leaving it purposely ambigous.


Yes, there are absolutes, but don't be too sure that you've got them all by the tail.


Jesus spelled it out clearly for us.. to remarry unlawfully is sin.. your sin will damn you to hell unless you repent in this period of Grace where all we need to do is stop a habitual sin, and ask forgivness.

Stopping The Sin + Asking For Forgiveness = Repetenance

Asking For Forgiveness does not equal Repentance

RN, do you hear what you're saying? Do you see what a horrible judgment you are making against this man with absolutely no proof? Goodness, I'm shocked. That's all I can say.

All I'm saying is he's wishy washy because he doesn't have a position, and chooses to dance instead.

[cindyw]

Originally posted by Ynott
The Ezra passage dealt with unbelievers marrying believers.

What about the twelve tribes of Israel? There were FOUR mothers there and ALL were married.

So, everyone but Leah's children were illegitimate and the rest were all sinning?

Just a question. I have no answers.

But clearly there is "wiggle room" on this issue of concurrent LEGAL wives.

Yes, I know polygamy was tolerated, but IMHO, Jesus straightened out once and for all HIS view on marriage. The reason I brought up the Ezra scripture is concerning the emotional argument many seem to have about God not wanting to tear families apart. He did tear families apart in that instance---- due to sin. Unfortunately, He required them to leave their unions which were unlawful. To be honest, I don't understand why God would require such a thing, but He did and I'm sure there was great pain and sorrow because the men had rebelled against the Lord and their repentance of that sin caused great suffering.........

[RaptureNewbie]

Originally posted by Ynott
Murder is a sin.

Show me how you can "UN murder" somebody.

You can't. You repent and are forgiven.



Thank you for stating the obvious... now lets get back on topic


Divorce is wrong.


Agreed.


So, if you "remarry" (a sin in this context), then you sin....and if you divorce, then you also sin....


If you remove yourself from an unlawful marriage, it didn't count as honorable in the first place. The so called second "divorce" is nothing more than a fruit of repentance.


One sin cannot undo another sin....It's just two sins.


See above.


You can only repent. That's my take on it.

You can't un-kill someone.. but you can un-marry someone not lawfully married.

Unfortunately it's very difficult for one to be objective when such a decision affects their entire earthly life.

That's not God's problem.

He's got something better.

No one ever said the way of the trangressor was not hard.

There are consequences.. and the poop will hit the fan sooner or later.

Better here on earth, before one winds up in eternal doo doo.

edit in blue

[RaptureNewbie]

Originally posted by cindyw
Yes, I know polygamy was tolerated, but IMHO, Jesus straightened out once and for all HIS view on marriage.


The only view that counts btw :nod

[Chris4Christ]

RN, do you believe that the many polygamists in the OT are all in hell because they died unrepentant adulterers?

[Ynott]

The Ezra passages seem rather obvious to me. God felt that the Nation of Israel was about to "disappear" spiritually. He had to remove the "contaminant". I don't look upon it so much as a God ordained bill of divorcement so much as a "cleansing" of the Nation.

I guess what it comes down to is this:

What is repentance for sin?

Some would say that it is necessary to commit another sin (and then get wishy washy about the legality of the second marriage, etc. to justify that position).

Some would say that a sincere and heartfelt sorrow and confession as well as the desire to serve the Lord and NEVER commit such an act again and strive to do your best in the situation would be sufficient to merit the name: repentance.

I take Christ at His word when faced with a sinful woman in a sinning situation:

"Woman your sins are forgiven. Go and sin no more."

[cindyw]

Originally posted by Medic911
Once you've "taken someone as your wife" (assuming the above scenerio), the sin is committed. They are your wife, and to divorce them would only be to commit a second sin. There are several Biblical examples of people who sinfully took wives against God's Will, and then repented... but they didn't divorce the new wife after they repented. They may have been cursed for their actions, but God recognized their new marriage, even if He didn't approve.

Ok, I'm going to insert names into the scenerio Jesus gave:

"And I say unto you, If John shall put away his wife Judy, except it be for fornication, and shall marry Jackie, he commith adultery.

and if Steve marries Judy who has been put away by John, Steve commits adultery."

said by Paul: Rom. 7:2-3------Judy who is married to John is bound by the law to John as long as he lives (I Cor. 7:39). If John dies, she is loosed from the law of her husband. If, while John is still alive Judy marries another man, she shall be called an adulteress. But if her husband be dead, she is free from the law, so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Ok, in Mt. 19:9-----clearly John has committed adultery against Judy. For those of you who believe Judy has a right to now remarry because of John's adultery----explain Jesus' next statement. Why does it appear that Judy is not free to remarry? Could it be possible that she can "divorce" John in God's sight without sin, yet she is still "joined" to Him and he to her----in spite of their adulteries?

[cindyw]

An except from teachings in the early Church:

Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol. 2 chapter 1

On Putting One's Wife Away for Adultery

"I charge you," said he, "to guard your chastity, and let no thought enter your heart of another man's wife, or of fornication, or of similar iniquities; for by doing this you commit a great sin. But if you always remember your own wife, you will never sin. For if this thought enter your heart, then you will sin; and if, in like manner, you think other wicked thoughts, you commit sin. For this thought is great sin in a servant of God. But if any one commit this wicked deed, he works death for himself. Attend, therefore, and refrain from this thought; for where purity dwells, there iniquity ought not to enter the heart of a righteous man." I said to him, "Sir, permit me to ask you a few questions. Say on," said he. And I said to him, "Sir, if any one has a wife who trusts in the Lord, and if he detect her in adultery, does the man sin if he continue to live with her? "And he said to me, "As long as he remains ignorant of her sin, the husband commits no transgression in living with her. But if the husband know that his wife has gone astray, and if the woman does not repent, but persists in her fornication, and yet the husband continues to live with her, he also is guilty of her crime, and a sharer in her adultery." And I said to him, "What then, sir, is the husband to do, if his wife continue in her vicious practices? "And he said, "The husband should put her away, and remain by himself. But if he put his wife away and marry another, he also commits adultery. And I said to him, "What if the woman put away should repent, and wish to return to her husband: shall she not be taken back by her husband? "And he said to me, "Assuredly. If the husband do not take her back, he sins, and brings a great sin upon himself; for he ought to take back the sinner who has repented. But not frequently. For there is but one repentance to the servants of God. In case, therefore, that the divorced wife may repent, the husband ought not to marry another, when his wife has been put away. In this matter man and woman are to be treated exactly in the same way. Moreover, adultery is committed not only by those who pollute their flesh, but by those who imitate the heathen in their actions. Wherefore if any one persists in such deeds, and repents not, withdraw from him, and cease to live with him otherwise you are a sharer in his sin. Therefore has the injunction been laid on you, that you should remain by yourselves, both man and woman, for in such persons repentance can take place. But I do not," said he, "give opportunity for the doing of these deeds, but that he who has sinned may sin no more. But with regard to his previous transgressions, there is One who is able to provide a cure; for it is He, indeed, who has power over all."


I am compiling writings by the Early Church concerning their teachings on divorce/remarriage and requirements for elders/deacons. What I have consistantly found is this: NO remarriage. Divorce for adultery, yes, but no remarriage was allowed in the Church. The only remarriage allowed was in the case of the death of a spouse. Even then, remarriage was frowned upon, though I don't understand why because it is biblically permissible. I think the ECF viewed a life of abstinance as preferrable in order to serve the Lord wholeheartedly. Remarriage in that case was PERMISSIBLE, but not profitable for the kingdom's sake in their opinions.


My question is this: If scripture was consistantly understood in the above fashion, why do we have such trouble rightly dividing it today? Is it so difficult or is it sin has become so commonplace in our society that we have become numb to it and it's affected how we interpret scripture? I'm not trying to be argumentative. It's something I asked my husband too as our viewpoints on this issue vary a bit, so we've discussed it alot. Are we like Lot----righteous, but vexed due to sin around us, within our camps too? Lot was so affected by sin around him he almost sinned by giving up his daughters to be raped........I dont' know. Why such vastly different teachings and practices in the Church----from then to now..........:confused

[matheteou]

Originally posted by cindyw
Yes, I know polygamy was tolerated, but IMHO, Jesus straightened out once and for all HIS view on marriage. The reason I brought up the Ezra scripture is concerning the emotional argument many seem to have about God not wanting to tear families apart. He did tear families apart in that instance---- due to sin. Unfortunately, He required them to leave their unions which were unlawful. To be honest, I don't understand why God would require such a thing, but He did and I'm sure there was great pain and sorrow because the men had rebelled against the Lord and their repentance of that sin caused great suffering......... It wasn't because of the mixed marriages. Ezra 9:1 contains the key to the reason they were called to separate themselves (and the reason behind the prohabition in the Law) -1But then the Jewish leaders came to me and said, "Many of the people of Israel, and even some of the priests and Levites, have not kept themselves separate from the other peoples living in the land. They have taken up the detestable practices of the Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Jebusites, Ammonites, Moabites, Egyptians, and Amorites. 2For the men of Israel have married women from these people and have taken them as wives for their sons. So the holy race has become polluted by these mixed marriages. To make matters worse, the officials and leaders are some of the worst offenders."Was Boaz's marriage to Ruth (a moabitess) unlawful or was grace (based on her confession to Naomi in Ruth 1:16, 17) given? Or how about Rahab, a Canaanite and harlot, (possibly) the mother of Boaz (Matt 1:5)?

[BHiles]

Originally posted by RaptureNewbie

Jesus spelled it out clearly for us.. to remarry unlawfully is sin.. your sin will damn you to hell unless you repent in this period of Grace where all we need to do is stop a habitual sin, and ask forgivness.



This is an incorrect view of sin and grace. God does not differentiate the entrance to heaven on you being a habitual sinner or a sinner once in a while. Sin is Sin and sin is that which God cannot tolerate even in the least and tiniest amounts. Sin, any sin of any type condemns you to hell. This is a just and perfect God we are talking about. Therefore you must be sinless to enter heaven. No not just forgiven sinless or repented sinless but completely sinless.


Stopping The Sin + Asking For Forgiveness = Repetenance


This is also misunderstood repentance that leads to salvation. Repentance is getting on the same side of the sin with God and looking at that sin as He would. The sin that needs to be repented of for salvation is that sin of unbelief.
The word in the greek term of repentance for salvation such as in Matthew 9:13 is metanoia which simply means and only means a reversal of desicion To repent of the sin of unbelief you must see that sin as God sees it. You are in need of a saviour to save you from that which has condemned you to death and faith placed in that saviour, rejecting that sin that held you from accepting that saviour, this is the true repentance of salvation. All other repentance is an ongoing process that once the Holy Spirit has come into you He then is allowed to convict you and bring all the areas of you life under repentance to live holy until the completed redemption of your soul. This is for your usefulness and not for your redemption. You are out of the picture. You didn't earn it and you cannot do anything to keep it. Only pride tells one that they can do anything to keep oneself saved.

It is vital that we value everyday as a fresh day to do the will of God. Today I can do God's will. I know that "relationship "and "marriage" were interchanged in this thread quite frequently. A "relationship" is not marriage. Unholy "relationships" must be abandoned to truly be repnetant of that sin. Once married after divorce that is who God wants you to be with. The sin has already been commited. If you fornicated and a baby was the result would God want you to abort the baby as part of your repentance? No! You can only live in God's purpose from where you are at. Today You can both repent of the sin of adultry and you can live in God's will together today. Don't beat yourself up anymore about the past. Don't sin willfully to abuse grace either because there are still mortal consequences. But heaven is assured to the believer.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

[KrispyKritter]

BHiles... you're right on, bro... :thumb (by the way, long time no see!)

ok, Cindy.... I havent responded for several reasons. #1 I havent studied this out as thoroughly as you obviously have. I tend to choose battles that I am equiped for. #2 You are so thoroughly convinced you're right that it seems to me that there really is no point in trying to debate it too far w/you.

It seems odd to me that you and your husband are as well versed about something that you have never had to deal w/in your own life, nor do you plan to. I've never been divorced nor plan to... and thats one reason I havent spent a lot time worrying about the Biblical view of what we're discussing. I see the black & white part of it... that part is easy to understand. But your discussing a mighty grey area.

To you, Cindy, it's not grey. But to many others (myself included) it is.

What purpose does it serve for you to be so well versed in soemthing that you personally dont have a vested interest in? Short of espousing to everyone here your opinions on what they should do based on something so hazy... I see no point.

[cindyw]

Originally posted by matheteou
It wasn't because of the mixed marriages. Ezra 9:1 contains the key to the reason they were called to separate themselves (and the reason behind the prohabition in the Law) -Was Boaz's marriage to Ruth (a moabitess) unlawful or was grace (based on her confession to Naomi in Ruth 1:16, 17) given? Or how about Rahab, a Canaanite and harlot, (possibly) the mother of Boaz (Matt 1:5)?

You completely ignored what I said. I was not trying to label the particular sin, I was showing precedent. God indeed in the past has required families to be broken apart----due to sin. Many seem to think God would NEVER do such a thing. Scripture shows He has. That was my point.:):

[matheteou]

Originally posted by cindyw
You completely ignored what I said. I was not trying to label the particular sin, I was showing precedent. God indeed in the past has required families to be broken apart----due to sin. Many seem to think God would NEVER do such a thing. Scripture shows He has. That was my point.:): Then I apologize for misreading your post in light of this thread :wave

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by cindyw
You completely ignored what I said. I was not trying to label the particular sin, I was showing precedent. God indeed in the past has required families to be broken apart----due to sin. Many seem to think God would NEVER do such a thing. Scripture shows He has. That was my point.:):

Whoa nelly... you're going off the deep end with this Cindy. That's the trouble w/being so dogmatic on a point, and not allowing any grace to enter in.

[cindyw]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
ok, Cindy.... I havent responded for several reasons. #1 I havent studied this out as thoroughly as you obviously have. I tend to choose battles that I am equiped for. #2 You are so thoroughly convinced you're right that it seems to me that there really is no point in trying to debate it too far w/you.

Krispy, are there things you have studied that you feel confident in sharing scripture about? It would appear by your many posts that you do. I am no different. Do you honestly feel one has to suffer the sin in order to understand or want to know God's teachings on it? Just because my husband and I started studying this topic---not doing it because of marital problems, means that our study of it is senseless? Krispy, I didn't set out to study this issue at all. It was thrown at us. We had no choice but to study it. I don't know. Explain how it is that something that you couldn't care less about is suddenly placed upon your heart----day and night--to seek God's truth about. I can't explain it. I only believe that it is God's purpose----that's why my husband was "hit" by this as well (to study it in depth). This is the only topic BOTH of us have at the same time been prompted to study.

Do I understand EVERY issue concerning this topic? Absolutely not and I have shared those things I do not understand (sin/salvation/new creature, etc). There is also the issue of the new believer in which the unbeliever leaves. That I am unsure about as well, though it would appear that God acknowledges that covenant as valid as well.........

Also, I wasn't asking for a debate from you, I asked a question concerning your view on Rom. 7:2-3 and how you interpret that. I think that was a valid question, if you don't have the answer, that's all you had to say. However, to me, you say you are not well-equipped, yet you give advice or make comments to the contrary of what I've stated. I believe in Iron sharpening Iron. If you make a statement that I feel is contrary to the Word, I will call you on it. I expect the same done to me----with the Word. That is how we each learn. That is how each of us learns to rightly divide the Word of Truth. I want to learn----even if it makes me extremely uncomfortable and even if it takes me saying "sorry, I was wrong"...........Blessings in Jesus, Cindy :):

[cindyw]

Originally posted by matheteou
Then I apologize for misreading your post in light of this thread :wave

No problem.....:):

[cindyw]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Whoa nelly... you're going off the deep end with this Cindy. That's the trouble w/being so dogmatic on a point, and not allowing any grace to enter in.


Krispy, I'm not talking "Grace" here. I was showing a passage of scripture. I was showing that God did not administer "grace" in that situation. Please don't make this about "me". It is about God and I think we need to keep our focus on His Word, not what each of us "thinks"......k? :):

[KrispyKritter]

Cindy... let me first say that I'm not upset with you. 'kay?

Absolutely we should study all of scripture, and I am not saying there is anything wrong with gaining knowledge about something that doesnt directly effect us. I have no problem w/that. But it seems to be more than just a passing interest with you because you've engaged in this very same debate multiple times lately. Obviously it's on your heart, and thats a good thing! I get into the same debates over and over again, but they are always topics that I have had first hand knowledge in, and have complete confidence in. It is in those debates that I almost never say "in my opinion" because I am completely convinced that it's not just my opinion... it's truth. You have mentioned that I have offered my opinion on this topic... which I have... but I hvae stated clearly that it is just that... my opinion. I do that purposely because I am not as confident in this subject. I have no first hand knowledge in divorce... praise God. I do have complete confidence in my position on divorce as it pertains to leadership in the church... why? Because it effects our housechurch network of which I am a part of the leadership. I know what the Bible says about what is permissable, and who is qualified for leadership. It's black and white. But as for whether God wishes to tear apart families in order to hammer out justice and repentence... it's grey. Personally I dont serve a God like that. Is there bad things that can result from this type of union? Absolutely, because it was born of the flesh. But does God demand the inocent suffer because of the sins of the parents? No, I dont believe He does. They do suffer to a point as a result of the sin, but does He demand a child be fatherless or motherless? No, and thats my opinion based on my personal knowledge of God's personality as experienced in my own heart. He is a God of justice, but He is a God of grace and mercy too.

[cindyw]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Cindy... let me first say that I'm not upset with you. 'kay?

But as for whether God wishes to tear apart families in order to hammer out justice and repentence... it's grey. Personally I dont serve a God like that. Is there bad things that can result from this type of union? Absolutely, because it was born of the flesh. But does God demand the inocent suffer because of the sins of the parents? No, I dont believe He does. They do suffer to a point as a result of the sin, but does He demand a child be fatherless or motherless? No, and thats my opinion based on my personal knowledge of God's personality as experienced in my own heart. He is a God of justice, but He is a God of grace and mercy too.

Oh, Krispy, I'm not upset with you either. You may have "ruffled my feathers" a bit, but I'm over it. :): For the time being, let's just say we disagree on what repentance means or how it is played out with this particular sin.

Ok, first of all, it seems kinda stupid to me to move to the repentance part of sin when the sin itself has not been determined/defined biblically first. Don't you agree? We shouldn't even be discussing the repentance issue until we first define what each of us sees as the sin-----because repentance requires different things based upon different circumstances.

Is all remarriage sin? If not, which remarriages are sin? Is it a one time sin of entry or is it an ongoing sin/lifestyle of sin? I think many people think many different things about this topic of remarriage and the conversation always seems to go to the repentance issue with emotions boiling over. If you don't mind, tell me what you believe thus far in your studies on this, what the sin of remarriage is........or anyone who cares to enter this discussion. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

Ps. Krispy concerning your "gray issue" comment........Are there grey issues with God? I know I have them, but does He? I agree the Word teaches there are "disputable" matters that we are not to go "round and round" about, but is this one of those matters?

[KrispyKritter]

Obviously there are no grey areas w/God. But for reasons beyond my comprehension He has chosen to not speak specifically to some issues.

As for what is actually the sin... I can tell when I'm being baited. What will happen is I will state the obvious, and then someone will ask "well what about someone who is being physically abused?" ... and on it goes. This topic has spun off in more directions than mud hitting a fan. And ya know what? It’ll always come back to the same point without you convincing others, and without others convincing you.

So I will respectfully bow out of this conversation.
:wave

[prairiedog]

I divorced my ex because family members told me he was seeing other women. This was after one showed up on my doorstep...long story. Ex denied he committed adultery, but I left anyway & remarried several yrs later.

Perhaps my current hateful inlaws are my punishment for leaving my ex.

[KrispyKritter]

It is quite clear in scripture that if your ex committed adultry, you then have the choice to leave and not be obligated to that spouse. Remarriage in your case is not a sin. Period.

[cindyw]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
So I will respectfully bow out of this conversation.
:wave

Not a problem. Dialoguing is a bit hard if only one person does it.....:): Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

[Vickimac]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
It is quite clear in scripture that if your ex committed adultry, you then have the choice to leave and not be obligated to that spouse. Remarriage in your case is not a sin. Period.

OK, I am in the same boat. After his repeated affairs, none on me, I chose to divorce my husband rather than risk getting aids.
I remarried. My husband has been married twice before, the first one cheated on him but the second one, there was no adultery. But she initiated (demanded) the divorce. She is an aetheist, he is a Christian. So am I now living in sin by being married to this man (in church, before God)?

Oh and btw, I have no ties to the calvary church, but completely believe in eternal security. :spit

[BHiles]

vikimac,
You are to remain as you are. Living in sin is a misnomer because we live around and sin constantly even though that is the venacular that is chosen to mean in an illicit relatiopnship. You however have married.

Once you have married you are to remain in that marriage until death.

If you divorce for any other reason than adultry then after remarriage the sin has been against the covenant they made in the previous marriage. But this occurs only once. Their first sexual union breaks the former bond. The new marriage covenant is now in effect. This fact, however, should not be taken as weakening the force of Christ's restriction. Deliberate disobedience is always a serious matter. Believers who truly love the Lord will not lightly ignore or disobey Him.

The vow made to God and your partner is until death do you part btw not until times are tough or they have an affair or for any other reason. The vow is a vow. God has allowed a permissible set of reasons because of the "hardness of our hearts". This is never His desire for any reason.

However if you have divorced God is merciful. Do not abuse grace to facilitate a reason to divorce though.

As to your marrying a divorced man If he is a believer then if his wife chose not to live with him anymore then he is free to remarry.

I cor 7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

[SeaDreamer]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
It is quite clear in scripture that if your ex committed adultry, you then have the choice to leave and not be obligated to that spouse. Remarriage in your case is not a sin. Period.

Really? This is the reason why I divorced my first husband.

Can someone point out to me where it says this exactly? At the risk of seeming like an idiot I've studied this subject a little and never run across this.

I know someone's going to point out the scripture and I'm going to go :doh, of course. :):


But I use the :doh emoticon a lot so I'm used to it.

[Attaboy7]

A decent study to read is located here. h##p://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Instone-Brewer/Staff.htm

An indepth study of Jewish divorce in the OT and NT and helps to give context to Jesus responses.

Divorce for any reason- vs- Divorce for specific reason. Ultimately, divorce is an act. The sin is in the failure of the marriage covenant. If someone in the marriage files for divorce, the other spouse has not committed the “sin” of divorce. Rarely is only one person to blame for the break down of a marriage except maybe in some cases of adultery.

While Jesus and Paul gave reasons that would be “legal” for divorce, Jesus gave an express conclusion that it is not to be.

For a professing Christian to file for divorce is wrong and is sin. The other party is then faced with the dilemma of signing (agreeing) with the divorce, or depending on what state you live in over a period of time it is a defacto conclusion. Again, has the offended spouse sinned? No.

Should a Christian remarry? No. Only after the death of the spouse. Does a disobedient Christian commit adultery after they remarry? Yes, but the sin is committed once. You are then joined and married. You don’t wake up every morning and start the day with the sin of adultery. Every intimate moment is not adultery. The example is in Jesus response to the woman at the well, her acts bound her in marriage to each of her “husbands” Will Jesus forgive? Yes. Will there be difficulty as a result? You bet! David committed adultery and murder to cover it and yet he was forgiven and made righteous. It would be an abomination to now divorce you current spouse. Stay married, committed, and honor your covenant.

I have only come to this conclusion through much study. I am divorced (I did not file) and remarried. I was a marginal Christian at that time and did not really understand. I do now. God has blessed me with a truly godly woman and a wonderful believing family active in his service, however, scripturally, it is wrong to remarry. It is adultery. I have been blessed in spite of my disobedience. If God gave us what we deserved none of us would be on this board right now.

In his service

[Vickimac]

I considered myself to be a a Christian at the time, though I was pretty lukewarm at best, and I didn't physically file, but I insisted he did, (against his wishes, btw).

25 yrs of affairs, not just the one that killed it. The final one came after 18 months of empty promises and complete constant lies on his part as repeatedly he came to me straight from her bed, having unprotected sex with an ex-IV drug user who was bisexual & promiscuous. 18 long, painful, insane months of me begging God to help save my marriage, swallowing my pride, risking my HEALTH, & trying to forgive.

I did sin. I was never unfaithful in my 25 yr marriage but I sinned against God afterward because I got mad. I spent 3 yrs being angry at God because I felt he would not answer my prayer and I did not understand why he would not "intervene" to save what I thought should be the holy institution of marriage. So I tried my best to ignore him. But it didn't work.

He did answer, just not how I wanted at the time. He didn't open my exes eyes as I begged with my face to the floor, instead he opened mine to who I was really married to. And I fell OUT of love with that man instantly.:): God healed my broken heart and filled it with his perfect love.

It was only after that time that I even developed any relationship or committment to God. I didn't even really know God before then. And I fully believe I never would have had I stayed in that situation. I had wanted to have faith in my husband. I wanted him to be my world. He was all I cared about. Now I know better. God is the only one who is worthy of my faith. And I believe 100% that God led me out of that marriage to bring me to him.

Attaboy, I can honestly say that in my case it WAS one persons fault that the marriage dissolved. One who was never introduced to honesty or honor, period. I am NOT saying I am free of guilt, because nobody is perfect and I know I made mistakes. But in spite of repeated affairs, I never left the marriage bed myself. I didn't lie to him or dishonor the marriage. I didn't neglect the marriage. But God knows all the details and I know he led me out of it. :wave

It's got to be pretty bad when your 17 yr old daughter who loves you both, begs you to divorce him because she canot stand to witness your pain or humiliation any longer.:cry

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by Vickimac
OK, I am in the same boat. After his repeated affairs, none on me, I chose to divorce my husband rather than risk getting aids.
I remarried. My husband has been married twice before, the first one cheated on him but the second one, there was no adultery. But she initiated (demanded) the divorce. She is an aetheist, he is a Christian. So am I now living in sin by being married to this man (in church, before God)?

Oh and btw, I have no ties to the calvary church, but completely believe in eternal security. :spit

Here is what the Word of God says...

1 Corinthians 7:10-16 10 Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband. 11 But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife. 12 But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. 13 And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. 15 But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace. 16 For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

It's clear to me that if an unbeliever leaves a believer... the believer is free from their marital obligations. Free to remarry a believer. Some will disagree, but free is free is free. Free.

Again... I say FREE!

[Leigh]

Krispy, that's how I understand the I Corinthians passage also.

Now to take it a step further, is a remarried man (divorced from an unsaved, unfaithful spouse) permitted to serve as a deacon or elder? Or as a pastor?

[Pam Graves]

I've seen these threads so many times and have always tried to stay away because they touch too close to home.

You, see, you're all talking about me.


I am an adulteress who left my preacher husband in order to marry another man. I broke every vow that I took before God in my first marriage. I was living with another man and had conceived his child before my divorce was final. Am I getting a little personal? Sorry!

By the standards of some, I'm going to hell. It doesn't matter that I love the Lord with all my heart. It doesn't matter that I realize my sin and have repented, (turned away from) the life of an adulteress. It doesn't matter that I'm raising my two little ones to love Him above all else. If all this is true, than I guess there's nothing that I can do. I have asked God if He wants me to end this "ungodly" marriage and I have received no word from Him that that is His desire.

I have a question though...

My current husband was not a believer when we met. In fact, if he had had to choose between God and satan, he would have chosen satan because in his opinion, satans' team was winning on this earth. But one night, out of the blue, on his way to work, the Lord began speaking to him. That night he gave his life to the Lord. I've never seen a change in a man like I've seen in him. My question is this...

By marrying an adulteress, he made himself an adulterer. True?

Why then did God call him if he were doomed to hell for his adulterous, ungodly marriage?

This is a serious question...Is God just toying with him, making him think he's saved, knowing full well that He's going to send him to hell for marrying me? The original sin of adultery was forgiven when he was later saved. But by the standards presented here, he is still in the act of adultery by staying married to me and therefore he got saved for nothing.

I have a real problem with that. Why? So I can feel good about myself and my marriage? NO, NO, NO!!!

Because I have a Father who loves me. I have a Father who knows my every thought and desire. I have a Father that told me, in HIS Word, that if I confessed my sin, He would forgive me for that sin.

You want to make my Father into a liar.

With all of the wonderful scriptures you have all so graciously supplied, please show me the one where He says that He won't forgive the adulterer and show me scripture that says that an adulterer is still an adulterer when they have been forgiven! I must have missed those scriptures.

Pam

[Ynott]

(((((Pam)))))))

As you will note from my previous posts.... I am out of step with some here.

I do believe that you sinned, but then so do you... So, we agree.

I do believe that you have repented of this sin.

I do believe that your marriage is legal in the eyes of God, though how you got there was wrong.

I do believe that it would be another sin to divorce your husband and wreck your lives and that of your children. On this I disagree with some here who think divorce is a magic "undo" button in God's eyes.

God HATES divorce! Be it first, second, or whatever number divorce you want to place on it.

God loves you right where you are at.

You made some bad choices (so have I! I'll not cast any stones in your direction, sweet sister), but you have repented AND YOU ARE FORGIVEN! Not a little bit, but ALL THE WAY.

God bless you in your present walk with the Lord. I'm sure it is a STRONGER walk because of what has already transpired in your life.

Be at peace, Pam.

[Vickimac]

I agree with Ynott. I believe that a REPENTED sin is a forgiven sin. I believe that Jesus died to pay the wages of sin.

Your husband was an unbeliever when he married you, and God since called him, who's going to argue the point with Him?:):

You only need to worry about the One who sees the heart, not the ones who don't. He is the One who is sinned against and he is the one who can forgive. And his forgiveness is complete when the heart repents.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by Leigh
Krispy, that's how I understand the I Corinthians passage also.

Now to take it a step further, is a remarried man (divorced from an unsaved, unfaithful spouse) permitted to serve as a deacon or elder? Or as a pastor?

Oh, excellent question. Some will say that I contradict myself, but I believe that if he became saved after they married, and they split because she wouldnt stay with him, then yes. Paul said "FREE". If he was saved and married an unbeliever, then no because obviously he didnt use wisdom when he married her, and disobeyed scripture where it talks about being unequally yoked. This would be an example of not managing his own family very well.

Thats not a hard and fast rule, and it's just my opinion. If we had a man who wanted to be considered for leadership in our house church network, then this is how we would handle it.

[prairiedog]

Let me tell you a story about Sex, Lies, & Murder...

Once upon a time there was king who had many wives, plus his choice of available maidens throughout his kingdom.
One evening he was strolling on the roof of his palace & spied a beautiful woman taking a bath.

He was filled with desire for her, regardless of the fact that she was currently married & so was he.

One thing led to another, & she became pregnant. Oh what to do! What to do!

The king recalled her warrior husband back from the front so he could sleep with his wife & then everyone would think the child was the hubby's. But Hubby didn't think it was fair to the other soldiers so he declined.

OK, so that deceitful trick didn't work. But hey! The king devised a plan that would cover up the sin. He had the hubby sent to the very front of the battle so he would be killed & the widow would be free to marry the king. Sadly, the plan worked. The king married the widow & they didn't live happily ever after.

You see, they didn't fool God. He punished both of them by the death of their newborn son who was conceived in their adulterous affair. But He punished the king even more. One of the king's sons raped the king's daughter (his half sister). Then the king's other son killed his half brother for raping his full sister. Then that son rebelled against the king & wound up dead when his long hair got caught in the trees during his flight from the troops.

I'm sure you recognized this story from the get-go as David & Bathsheba.

Did God curse them forever for thier sins? No, because they repented & begged His forgiveness.

God Promised David he would be the ancestor of the Messiah & his throne would be established forever. Bathsheba became the mother of Solomon, and therefore is also an ancestress of Messiah.

I'm sure we will see them in heaven. True Repentence & acceptance of Christ's Gift of Salvation & Faith in Him is what saves us from hell.

I believe that blasphemers of the Holy Spirit will wind up in hell, not the repentant adulterers.

God Bless You.

[Pam Graves]

Thank you all for your kind words of encouragement. And know that the silence from the others has spoken volumns as well. LOL

I know that there are probably many on this board who have been in similar situations to mine. It was for those that I spoke up. Believe me, I didn't want to say a word and expose myself.

Everytime this topic comes up for discussion I find myself doubting God's forgiveness. But not this time. Because I know that I have changed. That kind of change can only come about by the grace and forgiveness of God.

I don't want to say that all one has to do is say, "I'm sorry Lord" and then go on with their life without any change. The fruit of repentance is the changed heart, not the changed circumstance.

It's up to each individual to determine where they are in their walk with God.
And if threads like this cause even one person to examine themselves and see where they are and where they should be, then these kinds of threads are a glory to God.

But if these threads cause confusion, hurt or resentment, or cause one to fall in their walk, then know for certain that God is not pleased.

I thank God that I have a Judge in Heaven. And I thank God for His mercy. Nobody on earth can steal my joy.

For those who have been where I have been and have truly repented resulting in a change of heart....know that you are innocent in the eyes of the only one who matters.

These things are between you and God and He will make you know where you stand. Trust in Him.

hugs,
Pam

[John Tyson]

Grace and peace to you all.

Let's see if I understand this. If a man divorces, remarries, asks forgiveness, but doesn't divorce again, he's living in sin and can't serve as a deacon. However, if a man murders his wife to marry another woman, marries her, asks forgiveness, he isn't living in sin and can serve as a deacon.:confused

I've chased this divorce thing around the bush a couple of times with folks on this board. The ruts around this bush are getting a little deep.

God bless,
John

[Pam Graves]

That raises another question...

If God only recognizes the one marriage not any following an unscriptual divorce, then how can this verse regarding the qualifications of a deacon even apply to a divorced man? In God's eyes he would still be the husband of one wife.

I've heard from various preachers that Paul could have been actually referring to having more than one wife at a time.

Any opinions on this?

[Leigh]

Originally posted by John Tyson
Let's see if I understand this. If a man divorces, remarries, asks forgiveness, but doesn't divorce again, he's living in sin and can't serve as a deacon. However, if a man murders his wife to marry another woman, marries her, asks forgiveness, he isn't living in sin and can serve as a deacon.:confused


This is something I've had difficulty understanding also. A man can be a recovered alcoholic and get up and give his testimony in church. Everybody praises him (or what God has done in him) and there's no problem electing him to serve as a deacon.

Meanwhile all the divorced/remarried men (no matter what the circumstances) are conspicuously left off the list, considered unworthy to serve, even though all of us are sinners. This happened year after year in a church we used to attend and I could never figure it out and didn't have the nerve to ask.

Pam, since I don't speak the original language (Greek, right?) I can't go back to the manuscripts, but that's what I've wondered too ~ if Paul didn't mean more than one wife at a time.

[John Tyson]

Grace and peace to you all.

The bishop or deacon is to be a "one woman man." Even in Paul's day, divorce was recognized and a man that was divorced and not remarried had no wife. The bishop and deacon where not to have two or more wives or one wife with women on the side. Can't you just see this? The husband of two wives would be disqualified but the husband of one wife with three mistresses would qualify...if he gets rid of the mistresses...after all, he's "the husband of one wife."

I've been is some churches that interpreted "the husband of one wife" as disqualifing single men from being pastor or deacon.

And where in the Bible does it say a man can't have two wives? Well... the Bible says "no man can serve two masters!":B:

[cindyw]

Originally posted by Pam Graves
Thank you all for your kind words of encouragement. And know that the silence from the others has spoken volumns as well. LOL


Well, actually, the one who started this thread is on "read only" status and others, like me, don't care to get into personal scenerios----which can cause unnecessary offense. I desire to discuss scripture and the application of it. It appears that "some" biblical topics are off limits and when they do start to be discussed, the conversation goes way beyond the Bible and disecting biblical passages. However, recently it was quite nice that for the most part, this topic was able to be discussed biblically without alot of emotional arguments in the Apologetics forum. I am learning to keep certain discussions in certain forums........:): You'd think I'd know better by now............

I'll end with this Truth: We are not all going to agree on what is sin, what is not sin, what constitutes repentance, what does not constitute true repentance. I dont' get mad cause someone doesn't believe like I do. I may get irritated in how they respond to me, but I dont' get mad at their differing views. It doesn't affect my faith because I am secure in it and if I am wrong on certain issues----only the WORD of GOD and Holy Spirit revelation will bring Truth----not someone's anger and not someone's heartbreaking story---again, only God's Word brings light to confusion. When I don't see that being used-----and I didn't-----then I won't enter into a discussion I was previously involved with-----especially if emotions are running high. Just my thoughts. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

[Leigh]

Originally posted by John Tyson
And where in the Bible does it say a man can't have two wives? Well... the Bible says "no man can serve two masters!":B: [/B]



:B: Very funny!

[prairiedog]

as examples.

I only wanted to illustrate that thru true repentence with a changed heart & life, God will forgive us no matter what the sin.

He didn't let them off the hook, especially David. But He didn't send them to hell either because they were sorry for their sins. And He Blessed them both afterwards by allowing them to be ancestors of Jesus Christ.

Just making sure.

[Pam Graves]

Originally posted by cindyw
Well, actually, the one who started this thread is on "read only" status and others, like me, don't care to get into personal scenerios----which can cause unnecessary offense. I desire to discuss scripture and the application of it. It appears that "some" biblical topics are off limits and when they do start to be discussed, the conversation goes way beyond the Bible and disecting biblical passages. However, recently it was quite nice that for the most part, this topic was able to be discussed biblically without alot of emotional arguments in the Apologetics forum. I am learning to keep certain discussions in certain forums........:): You'd think I'd know better by now............

I'll end with this Truth: We are not all going to agree on what is sin, what is not sin, what constitutes repentance, what does not constitute true repentance. I dont' get mad cause someone doesn't believe like I do. I may get irritated in how they respond to me, but I dont' get mad at their differing views. It doesn't affect my faith because I am secure in it and if I am wrong on certain issues----only the WORD of GOD and Holy Spirit revelation will bring Truth----not someone's anger and not someone's heartbreaking story---again, only God's Word brings light to confusion. When I don't see that being used-----and I didn't-----then I won't enter into a discussion I was previously involved with-----especially if emotions are running high. Just my thoughts. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):




Cindy, by the silence, I was referring to my request for scriptures...

With all of the wonderful scriptures you have all so graciously supplied, please show me the one where He says that He won't forgive the adulterer and show me scripture that says that an adulterer is still an adulterer when they have been forgiven! I must have missed those scriptures.

And check out the original post....He specifically said he didn't want any cut and paste scripture. He wanted real examples. That's what I offered.

My position has nothing to do with OSAS. If I had not repented of my sin of adultery I very well could have been on my way to hell. The Bible is clear that no adulterers will inherit the Kingdom of God. I'll have to look up the actual scripture if you would like a reference...but I'm sure you know it.

And my position has nothing to do with trying to change minds. A changed life trumps a changed mind any day.

As far as heartbreaking stories go...well, actually I don't know what to say to that comment. As I stated before the original poster asked for it...

I'd appreciate a detailed response and not canned verses from your cut-n-paste.

I don't consider my testimony a "heart-breaking" story. I find it disgusting. The only heart breaking that took place was my breaking my Fathers' heart. Definately not a "feel good" story even though God used it to bring my husband to Him. But that's his own story, not mine.

It's a wonderful thing that you feel so strongly about something to study it in such depth. I would never discourage anyone from digging into God's word about any particular subject. But I'm thankful for my experiance which has taught me more than if I had merely read about it. At least as far as my personal situation is concerned. It was difficult to go through but I still Praise God for it.

I truly am sorry for allowing my emotions to show in my post. I'm just that kind of person, something else that was changed within me. I don't post often, but if I can help one person deal with a situation that I have experience in then how I can I stay quiet?

If I offended you or anyone else in this thread, I do apologize.

hugs,
Pam

[cindyw]

No worry Pam. You didn't offend me. Just clarifying why I didn't respond to your first post. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):