What's up with Catholicism?

[shatteredlands]

As a Catholic I have been wondering this a lot lately...why doesn't the Catholic Church ever say ANYTHING about the Rapture? Correct me if I am wrong, but I can't recall anything from the Gospel readings OR the homily OR anywhere. Personally, I would think that if they believe that the Rapture will occur they are not fullfilling their role as spiritual heads of the Church. Conversely, if they believe the Rapture is fiction, what will happen to the Catholics (such as myself before a few months ago)in that Twinkling of an Eye, who have never even heard of the Rapture due to the church not preaching it?

Another question... As I said, I am a Catholic. I was born into the earth as a catholic and baptized catholic as an infant...neither of these facts were chosen by me, they were chosen FOR me. I am getting the impression, and correct me if I am wrong, that the Catholic Church, especially the Roman Catholic Church makes up the rules as they go along or as the times dictate. I have recently been thinking about changing denominations. The problem I have is that, as many of you may know, I am reletively new to all of this. I do not yet have a spiritual mentor, and actually, that is another term I have never heard of until recently. I don't feel talking to a priest in lui of a spiritual mentor would satisfy my inquiries because they would, in my opinion, try to convince me that Catholicism is more spiritually fulfilling. I have spoken to another Catholic about this same subject and he pointed out the Sacrementalism of the Catholic Church and how holy and stuff the Eucharist is...I told him that sacrementalism should be secondary to the way you proclaim your faith and love for Jesus. He didn't take too kindly to that. Another reason I want to switch is because the Catholic church, to me anyways, seems so impersonal. You go in, you kneel and pray by yourself...nobody says anything to you or makes you feel welcomed or like you are part of a family. Granted, I don't believe that church should be used as some sort of social call or a place to go "pick up chicks," but I think a sense of belonging to a family is important. A place where someone sits next to me and says "Hi, Frank!" and I say "Hi, Jim, or Jan or Joe!" seems more spiritually fulfilling to me because I would actually be getting to know my brothers and sisters in Christ. Not too many people where I go seem to be interested in that. They seem to go in to get their 1 hour of obligation to their God a week and just get it over with. Seriously, they come in 1/2 way through mass and leave right after communion...and I'm not saying everyone, but most seem like they are in a big rush to get out of there and are filling the aisles to get out even before the procession gets past them. I was thinking of maybe getting involved with the ministry or with some social events sponsored by my church, but I am pretty much soured by the way that the Catholic Church seems so jaded. I am NOT bad-mouthing Catholics or the Catholic Church. This is just the way I perceive things and the way I feel. I will, however, continue to go to Catholic mass until I can make up my mind what I want to do...I have been praying for insight and am waiting patiently. I believe baptism should be performed twice in a lifetime anyways. Once just after birth and again as a conscious decision as an adult. Anyways, any insight or inspiration? I may start looking at going to services of another denomination, or maybe non-denominational, I have some research to do on the matter first though. Any other Catholics feel the same way?

Frank

[bopeep1909]

The Catholics and Lutherans are Amillenial. They do not believe in a rapture of any kind or a millenial rein of Jesus Christ on this earth. They believe that Christ will come back to appear before everyone in the end.

[shatteredlands]

That's just silly, IMHO. :tsk

[bopeep1909]

If you read about the amillenial beliefs they don't make alot of sense.

[blitzkreig]

I was wondering what the "official position" was on the rapture was a while ago and if you google the words "rapture" and "catholic" you will get so much claptrap that you will not believe it. The reason is that Rome seems to have opinions on most everything except end times. Here is about the best I found:

While Tim Lahaye (Left Behind) and other dispensationalists teach that God has two people – an earthly people (the Jews) and a heavenly people (the Christians) – the Catholic Church asserts that God has always had just one People, or family, throughout history.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) states that “This ‘family of God’ is gradually formed and takes shape during the stages of human history, in keeping with the Father's plan. In fact, ‘already present in figure at the beginning of the world, this Church was prepared in marvelous fashion in the history of the people of Israel . . . Established in this last age of the world and made manifest in the outpouring of the Spirit, it will be brought to glorious completion at the end of time.’” (CCC 759). Therefore, the Catholic Church has always understood herself as being the New Israel (Gal. 6:16) and the new People of God (1 Pet. 2:9-10), the recipients of the New Covenant given through Christ.

The dispensationalist belief in two people of God leads to the teaching of a secret Rapture. This was developed in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby, an ex-Anglican priest who became convinced that “Christendom” – organized, institutional Christianity – was apostate, and that only a few “true believers” existed. Darby taught that many of God’s promises made to Israel, the earthly people, had not yet been fulfilled and would not be until the Church, the heavenly people, had been secretly Raptured. Subsequent dispensationalists claimed that the Millennium, the thousand years of Revelation 20, will be a literal, earthly reign of Christ on earth following the Second Coming. This belief is commonly called millenarianism, or millennialism, and has been rejected by the Catholic Church. In 1944 the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith warned against “. . . the system of mitigated Millenarianism, which teaches . . . that Christ the Lord before the final judgment, whether or not preceded by the resurrection of the many just, will come visibly to rule over this world. . . . The system of mitigated Millenarianism cannot be taught safely” (see CCC 676).

While some early Church Fathers believed in an earthly, millennial reign of Christ, the idea was discarded in the fourth century. St. Augustine interpreted the reference to a “thousand years” as a metaphor for the Church age. This would become the implicitly accepted belief of the Church, even though the Catholic Church has still never made a formal statement about what the Millennium is or was – it remains open to debate.

The Church’s rejection of the secret Rapture is not formally stated, but is the natural conclusion of Catholic ecclesiology. While Catholics do not believe in a secret Rapture, we do believe in the Second Coming: Jesus Christ will physically and visibly return to earth, just as the Nicene Creed, recited in the weekly Eucharistic Liturgy, declares: “He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.” The Catechism states that “On Judgement Day at the end of the world, Christ will come in glory to achieve the definitive triumph of good over evil which, like the wheat and the tares, have grown up together in the course of history” (CCC 681; see 682).

From the Catholic perspective the term “Rapture” is problematic. On one hand it can refer to being “caught up” to Christ (1 Thess. 4:17), which we believe will happen at the Second Coming. On the other hand, the term is basically owned by Dispensationalists. When used in popular discourse it almost always refers to the secret snatching away of “true believers,” usually before the Tribulation, and always prior to and distinct from the Second Coming. Considering that the term “Rapture” is rarely used in Catholic circles, it is easy to see how misconceptions arise.

What happens to Israel in the Catholic understanding of End Time events? The Church’s one explicit teaching on this matter is that: “[t]he glorious Messiah's coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by ‘all Israel’, for ‘a hardening has come upon part of Israel’ in their ‘unbelief’ toward Jesus.” (CCC 674) The Church, reflecting upon Romans 9 through 11, believes that Israel will somehow come back to Christ and recognize him for who he really is. How this will be accomplished is open to debate since the Church says nothing else about it.

The Church does say a bit more about a time of Tribulation, teaching that there will be a time of great trial; however, we do not know when it will occur or how long it will last. The Catechism states that “Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the ‘mystery of iniquity’ in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth.” (CCC 675; also see CCC 2642) This time of trial will be at the start of the last days (see CCC 672).

Combined with this belief in a time of future testing, the Church teaches that there have been many Antichrists, but there will also be the Antichrist who leads a worldwide system of anti-Christian belief. The Catechism teaches that “...The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.” (CCC 675) “The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the [end times] judgement. . . .” (CCC 676).

A quick comment on the book of Revelation: it is, undoubtedly, one of the most hotly debated books of the Bible. Not surprisingly, the Catholic Church avoids making many specific interpretations of it. The Church’s doctrines allow for a range of interpretations. Thus a Catholic is free to believe it describes the conflict of good and evil experienced by individual Christians, and makes prophetic utterances about future events, and refers to events in the past. Such flexibility is a recognition that Scripture, inspired by God, can be full of different, yet complimentary, meanings. Since different people are going to often arrive at conflicting interpretations, there must ultimately be an authority who can make a decisive judgement when necessary. “It is the task of exegetes to work, according to these rules, towards a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture in order that their research may help the Church to form a firmer judgement,” the Catechism explains. “For, of course, all that has been said about the manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgement of the Church which exercises the divinely conferred commission and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God.” (CCC 119).


http://www.catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=6&art_id=1705

[r8ermang]

shatteredlands

First off, I want to say congrats to the Cubs, they won the division today. (I am a die hard Cards fan, this took a lot out of me :laugh)

I work with a Catholic guy. We are good friends. We talk about the differences between Catholic and Protestants. He hangs on to his "religion" very tightly, but doesnt even go to church. :cry

I suggest you ask God for wisdom. In the book of James, God says He will give wisdom to anyone who asks for it.

I will be praying for you to find another church. My mother is still Catholic, however, she goes to my church(southern Baptist) once in a while. She is starting to see the differences. She loves the way, at my church, that people hug and laugh before church starts. She says at her church, people just shuffle in, they dont talk and keep to themselves.

Plus, the worship is AWESOME. We have a worship leader that plays an electric keyboard, we have a lady that plays the piano, then we have a flute player and a couple horns(not sure what kind, lol) ITS AWESOME. I love it. I cant wait to worship tomorrow. WOOOOHOOOOOO:angel

You came from heaven to earth, to show the Way, from the earth to the cross, my debt to pay...From the cross to the grave, from the grave to the sky, Lord I lift Your name on high

[shatteredlands]

Thanks for your input! Again, I am still new to all of this and have a lot to learn...but my knowledge is growing in leaps and bounds. These replies helped a lot! R8ermang, I have been praying for wisdom and guidance and I believe I have been granted both. The way I am starting to see it is: if I felt so much turmoil and had such difficulty deciding on whether I should remain a Catholic I believe (or I have COME TO BELIEVE) that it was meant for me to open my eyes a little more and look around for someplace that would calm me. I think I have made my decision. :nod

oh, and GO CUBBIES!!!:D:

Frank

[Jacob]

Frank:

I was raised Catholic too. I later was made aware that the Bible teaches that forgiveness and eternal life are gifts that God gives to us freely based upon the death of the Lord Jesus Christ for our sins, and not as the result of any effort, works, or merit on our part. This was taught by the apostles in the early Church (Acts 15, Romans 4, Romans 3:22, 24, 25, 26, 28, 30; 4:5; Galatians 2:16.).

"For it is by grace that you are saved through faith, and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as the result of works, so that no one can boast." --- the apostle St. Paul, Epistle to the Ephesians 2:8-9.

"For everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus shall be saved." --- St. Paul in the Epistle to the Romans, 10:13.

I do not know why the RCC does not teach the Rapture or any other end-time prophetic things. The Rapture is taught in such passages as 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, and 1 Corinthians 15:50.

As you pray to God for wisdom, search the Scriptures for yourself to find it. Acts 17:10-11 says that the Bereans were "noble" due to the fact that, after St. Paul preached to them, they examined the Scriptures for themselves to "see if these things were so."

Begin with the gospel of John.

[seeker42]

Please, Catholic Theologians are A-millenial and SOME Lutherans are. Many Evangelical Lutherans are Not Amillenial, but pre-millenial. Lets not paint with too broad a brush...

[seeker42]

The dispensationalist belief in two people of God leads to the teaching of a secret Rapture. This was developed in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby

====

NO, NO, NO NO NO.

No, dispensationalists believe in a Rapture. Period. John Nelson Darby did NOT believe in a “secret rapture”. He just believed in a rapture. He was a hero of the faith and theologically sound.If someone maintain that he does [believe in a "Secret rapture"], I would like to know the exact citation and reference. Darby wrote more than 50 volumes of commentaries. If he had suggested this, it would be rather well known.

Darby is the one who popularized the Rapture, but he is hardly the one who invented it. The existence of the Rapture has been around for hundreds of years and did NOT originate with Darby (you sound like you are talking about the
Fake book by DaveMcPherson).

Seeker

[seeker42]

Books for beginners:

Classic Christianity by Bob George
Books by Andrew Murray
Books by A.W. Tozer
Faith for Earth’s Final Hour by Hal Lindsey
Why you should believe the Trinity by Robert Bowman


Seeker

[PraznHIM24/7]

I may start looking at going to services of another denomination, or maybe non-denominational, I have some research to do on the matter first though

Frank, Calvary Chapel is a wonderful non-denominational church. Scripture is taught verse by verse. Warm fellowship and great worship. Here is a link to the Calvary Chapels in your area.

http://calvarychapel.com/affiliates/NV.htm#bottom

[Joyfilly]

Shatteredlands, :bolt and go find you a good bible believing church!! Isn't it kewl when The Lord opens your eyes to things??!! :thumb

[msjagcat777]

Originally posted by bopeep1909
The Catholics and Lutherans are Amillenial. They do not believe in a rapture of any kind or a millenial rein of Jesus Christ on this earth. They believe that Christ will come back to appear before everyone in the end.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Huh? ALL Catholics son't belive in a rapture?
Then why did i see a CATHOLIC church marque with the words: Jesus is coming soon...Be ready for the rapture!:confused

I saw this about three/four years ago and my jaw dropped to the floor. I was like..whoa..a Catholic church?:faint

[tractsforchrist]

What the heck is a secret rapture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????

:eek :frusty :doh

I would be frekin out (again if I was not saved) if someone next to me just suddenly disappeared...........

[BaylorBrat]

Originally posted by tractsforchrist What the heck is a secret rapture?

I would be frekin out (again if I was not saved) if someone next to me just suddenly disappeared...........

You just described it. The "secret" rapture is the belief that Christians will suddenly disappear (i.e. we being "secretly" being raptured by Christ) just prior to the Tribulation. This is the theology of the Left Behind books.

[msjagcat777]

Originally posted by BaylorBrat
You just described it. The "secret" rapture is the belief that Christians will suddenly disappear (i.e. we being "secretly" being raptured by Christ) just prior to the Tribulation. This is the theology of the Left Behind books.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ahh...isn't this what the majority on this board believe?
I believe it will happen like the Left Behind books describe.

[tractsforchrist]

Oh.............. I thought a secret rapture was different from the rapture......... I was like..........so they are not going to remember who got raptured and that was why it is called a secret rapture

[tractsforchrist]

I just want to reiiterate that of course I know what the rapture is, I just was caught off guard by the concept of it being called a secret rapture because it sounded like they were saying the people left behind would not know.

[Elizabeth_S]

Originally posted by BaylorBrat
You just described it. The "secret" rapture is the belief that Christians will suddenly disappear (i.e. we being "secretly" being raptured by Christ) just prior to the Tribulation. This is the theology of the Left Behind books.


BB
Any disenting view of the Rapture not being a PreTrib, is discussed in the RDD forum only. but you know that, but ignore it as usual.

This is a pre trib board, therefore our views prevail here. Not some amillenial view that has no basis in scirpture, other than the RCC is talking about the 2nd coming.

Shatteredlands.

The RCC believes we are in the MK (millenial Kingdom) right now and they are given the rule over us all. If a person is not Catholic, according to the RCC, they are not going to heaven.

Oh! And the OFFICIAL stance of the Lutheran Chruch is Amil also if I remember correctly.

LLee has a lot of info on this, she is lutheran and has had a long 2 years in her search for the truth, and it started out when she realized Lutherans do not hold to an end times view. Or a Rapture view techinically.

Look up Llee and she has many links off of her site she started just for her research into the Rapture and what the Lutheran Chruch beleives.

[BaylorBrat]

Originally posted by Elizabeth_S BBAny disenting view of the Rapture not being a PreTrib, is discussed in the RDD forum only. but you know that, but ignore it as usual.

This is a pre trib board, therefore our views prevail here. Not some amillenial view that has no basis in scirpture, other than the RCC is talking about the 2nd coming.

:confused Gosh, since when did you become a moderator?

I never stated my belief Liz. What I stated was true and relevant to the discussion. If you disagree then you can click "Report this post to a mod" button.

Blessings,
BB

[Becky]

Originally posted by BaylorBrat
You just described it. The "secret" rapture is the belief that Christians will suddenly disappear (i.e. we being "secretly" being raptured by Christ) just prior to the Tribulation. This is the theology of the Left Behind books. I don't think it would be too much of a secret if a whole lot of people just up and disappeared. ;):