damage to people from WOF

[sandy111]

I've been reading on the WOF threads and would like any input from people who've acually seen the damage.

I'm a causualty. It is not from God and is heresy.
It acually destroys a persons relationship with the Lord.
The Lord is not my magic genie in a bottle to spare me
from all hardships and pain. There is a reason for those things, if the Lord allows it. It teaches another spirit another Jesus.
NOT the one in the bible.
The really sad part...eternity does come into play here.
eternity is forever, never ending, not a time to be gullable or
fooled into thinking all is well with my sould when it aint.
I do not hate the WOF people but the crap they teach.


I saw people who where told they were healed of aids to keep confessing their healing. They died.
what about preparing for death? It is discusting to decieve people like this and then say "oh they just did'nt believe enough"
:frusty

[Joshua's Gen]

Can you prepare for death and believe for life at the same time?

That comment just spurned that question. :confused

[cameron222]

Deep Josh!! And doesn't the Word say that....."to die is gain."

Our society is addicted to wealth and any scheme that seems to promise abundant wealth is seized upon by all our might. What blessings we miss when our focus is always on wealth and building self esteem.

The greatest lessons are learned in the trenches of want and need and total dependence on God. I look back over life and my wife and I have done o.k.........but much of the joy of our lives was in the struggles. Not that I want them back, but seeing what God has done is such a blessing and the strength we gained from the adversities prepared us for the times in which we now live.

I do not believe wealth is a dirty word....but the Santa Claus mentality of the WOF folks is disgusting. Its show business pure and simple. Show business for a profit by money sent in by gullible and guilt laden people.

[Christine]

I don't like the guilt trips it puts on people by teaching that if someone is healthier or wealthier than them, that God is punishing them for somehow being 'lesser Christians'.

The more they try, and the 'formula' isnt working, the more vicious the cycle becomes.

:(:

[cameron222]

I once heard a teacher say that at those WOF "wealth" seminars, the fancy cars belong to the staff and are parked up close and the parking lot of the attendees is filled with all of the old cars......:nod

Can you imagine seeing some old 1970s model Impala belching smoke with a bumper sticker that reads "Kenneth Copeland Ministries" :pound

[DeeLeeKay]

Another thing about the WOF that is rarely talked about is the "SATAN MADE ME DO IT". With the casting out of demons right and left. When the people still grapple with the sin in their lives their faith wavers.

:cry

[cameron222]

WOF......Works of Fraud

[zion]

WOF......Works of Fraud

:laugh so true!!!

[sandy111]

the question asked above,
Can you prepare for death and believe for life at the same time.
Yes, I believe you can. in one sense, a person would prepare for leaving and being with the Lord, yet still believing that IF THE LORD WILLS HIS OR HER LIFE WOULD BE SPARED, and if the Lord decides to take His child home they are in eternity with Him,
The choice rests in the Lords hands not our "belief" how little or great. He makes the decisions, not our "belief"

Just a thought....
If our beliefs determine everything as WOF teaches then we could "belief" the Lord right out of who He is.
and I know that just aint gonna happen!
My beliefs or doubts are not going to change Him..

Praise Him for who He is!

[cameron222]

Imagine if we could get to the point of asking God what He wanted us to do instead of us telling Him what we want Him to do.....

[sandy111]

cameron,
that post was excellent!!!

:thumb :thumb :thumb

[seeker42]

I've been reading on the WOF threads and would like any input from people who've acually seen the damage.

I'm a causualty. It is not from God and is heresy.

=========


I think that the way that WOF (Word of Faith) harms people is that it uses their own willingness to believe something which is false – against the person who is doing the “believing”.

Many of these people who are in WOF actually have been in this kind of stuff for their entire lives (some of the WOF teachers started back in the 1950s or before). But many of the people who are in WOF are NEW to the movement. Where did or do these people come from ?

Don’t they come from other churches ? Isn’t there some kind of implication that these churches - from which the WOF converts came – did Not teach people 1) how to rightly divide the Word of God or 2) how to study the Bible or 3) how to identify important doctrines in the Bible or 4) how to spot a cult or identify false teachers ???

I am not proposing that individual believers don’t have a choice, and don’t have a responsibility to educate themselves. Clearly they do, whether someone informs this of that or not, and they are held responsible by God, for the doctrine that they believe. The Bible tells all of us to be on our guard and warns about Spiritual deception and also about the need to stay constantly in the Word (the Bible) So That ...we will continue to grow spiritually.

But having said that - the failure of the leaders and teachers in those local churches, would seem to be an indication of the spiritual weakness and sickness of the Church, that it would provide an impression of safety and stability, while seeming to encourage the Lack of Spiritual grounding and the Lack of development of Spiritual Maturity.

Thank God we should not leave it up to our churches, and that we can find others and good authors to help us grow spiritually. But it remains disappointing to see many people go to church and find only the confirmation of a lack of Biblically grounded and encouraging teaching.

These implications seem to very serious. In many cases, the original local churches (around today) entirely failed in their Biblical duty to educated and thoroughly ground the Christians there into the Bible, and especially the new Christians. But now the WOF is becoming so large that it will likely continue to absorb those same local churches and get many of those churches to adopt WOF theology and teachings.

On a personal level, I think that the WOF is devastating. It is devastating to the WOF believers because they have allowed themselves to be led astray and to be spiritually deceived. The presumption that God does not allow his own children to be deceived is obviously false, because Paul and John and Peter are constantly telling those early Christians to pay attention and to watch out that they would not be deceived – because the presumption is that it could happen, and in some cases was happening.

God has given us his Holy Word so that we can use it, and if we know it well, and if we use it often, and as our minds are renewed through the study of His Word, then When we know the teachings of the Bible, and how to defend our faith and identify false teachings, we are much less likely to be deceived.

But the impact of WOF for those who want to come out of it is almost just as devastating for those who leave WOF (as it is for those who stayed), especially right after they have just left.

Where can a person go ? WHat Church would you send them to ? Who can they find to talk with, not only who will empathize, but who will actually offer them some seriously Biblical advice and genuine assistance ? And where do they start ?

I think that there are many thousands of walking casualties out there who have no idea how to respond to their WOF experiences: the first half seems to be those who thought that WOF was Christianity (Which it is not) – and who then have rejected Christianity because WOF did not work; the second half seems to be those who are Christians and realize that WOF does not work, and is wrong, and is misguided, but they do not have the practice nor enough spiritual understanding – to understand 1) where the problem is or 2) how to fix it and 3) how to go on from there. And the emotional consequences can be very heavy. For many of those involved, their friends and their Churches are still WOF. So they experience additional isolation from their friends, rather than support and comfort.
I suppose that is the price for also having friends not spiritually grounded, but that does not really help much either.

The solution should include books and authors that will talk about their own WOF experiences and help to highlight the contrast between 1) what the Bible says and teaches and 2) what the WOF teaches. All this can take a lot of time.

Another part of the solution seems to try to talk it out, work it out, write it out, and let it out, and to make these things part of the process of learning how to come to terms with WOF teachings and reject them, And THEN – replace those teachings with actual Biblical theology.


The “Soft” Cults

It used to be that Cults were essentially those who operated using an environment of obvious mind-control, where
a person was food-deprived, or sleep-deprived as part of their conditioning. Cults today are much more sophisticated. Part of the dangers of the WOF movement is that its seduction is not so much what it does to you from the exterior – as much as it is what happens to the interior of the person, who has agreed to subject themselves to the same environment as the WOF Teacher.

There are aspects of the WOF movement that resemble more the beauty and seduction of a “mass movement”, than they resemble the old cults. In fact, in some ways WOF movement is more dangerous because all of its impact is on the brain of the persons being affected. They change you – by teaching you how to change your own consciousness.
They induce the atmosphere, but it takes the will and the cooperation of the person listening, existing there in that moment, and agreeing to “take it all in” and accept it – in order for them to have the impact that they do.

There are situations where a person can recognize faulty or wrong theology in a conversation in a Coffee place.
Somehow, those same people are suddenly incapable of thinking of almost anything else – except to ACCEPT the experience which is offered, in the context of the WOF meetings.

One of the characteristics of God is that He does not require us to put our minds on hold, and experiences that are truly from Him 1) Agree with the Bible and 2) are Consistent with Biblical Teachings.

I hate to say this, but I think that in many WOF meetings, it is insufficient to suggest that it is merely false teachings which takes place. I believe that in many of those meetings, demonic spirits are looking to control the audience and find people willing to accept the input of those Evil spirits. The Bible says that Satan comes as an Angel of Light.
What better place for him to display this, than in the WOF meetings ?

I believe that increasingly – in the WOF meetings, the combination of the professional production, and the work of the Spiritual Enemies of the Cross are too powerful for those who are in the audience to not be affected by them.
We can all debate how long the impact of those meetings will be, but they must be long term: Because people coming out of WOF find it so hard to extricate themselves not only from having attended, but from the experiences that they were involved with.

====
In situations like that, I believe that it is important to recognize this for what it is: good old fashioned Spiritual Warfare. This is not the “demon of nail-biting” kind. It is rather simply the Devil making war on the saints, in order to attempt to paralyze us in as many ways as possible.

Praise God that there is a natural antidote called Prayer and Renewing of our Mind through reading the Bible. It is
important to understand that we need to pray for great wisdom and discernment, to pray that we will understand what has happened, to pray that we would understand Which part of our theology and teachings are wrong or have
been changed and altered by Word of Faith. Those of us who do not have a local church should pray that we would find one that has people inside with 1) great spiritual discernment and 2) great spiritual maturity – or that we would be able to find a group of Christian believers who are like that.

It is important to not Stay paralyzed. I do not mean a day or two. I mean weeks turning to months. It is important to recognize that God does not abandon us, and that He allows things in our lives which will make us stronger, but that there will be times when others hurt us and there will be times when we get burned, even by those who claim to be doing the work of God.

Often, what the Devil knows he may not be able to do anymore with deception, he may try to prevent us from serving Jesus Christ by Confusion or Paralysis. The only way to work out of those feelings is to try and process them, but not allow those bad feelings to become the basis by which we make our new everyday choices.

Bad things DO happen to Good people. And the fact is that although we like to think of ourselves as Good, we are really sinners saved by the Almighty Grace of a loving God. Having said that, it is important to know and remember that just because God lets us fall does NOT mean that He rejects us. On the contrary, God wants us to know Him better. We can never go faster than God, in His desire for our company, and in HIS desire for us to know Him better
and continue to worship Him, in spirit and In Truth.

These times are exiting but they do bring some dark days. We know one of the reasons why things happen to us:


II Cor 1:
3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.


Just to be sure we dont miss it, it says that we have tribulation
that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.


Other Verses are also helpful:


I Thessalonians 15: 18
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.


we should remember what Paul said:

II Thessalonians 2:16
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and [e]stablish you in every good word and work.


:):

[DeeLeeKay]

I think the WOF has a three part reason it is so sucessful. One is it is made of greed. Two is that poor people want more in this land of plenty. Three is we do not teach about stewardship anylonger. It seems with this free wheeling by faith alone, people to not see the need for sound doctrine.

There is a push towards unity without morality. Something has to give if there is to be unity with ungodlyness. And sadly it is the morals/charater department that is being sacrificed on the alter of unity.

In addition to these things is that many people use books and TV to get their teachings today. Not many sit down with the bible and read.

[cameron222]

In all fairness Sandy I got that statement I made from our preacher at last night's prayer meeting. But I do like the concept. Praising rather than begging. Seeking rather than grabbing.

Years and years ago I was a Kenneth Copeland fan. Then I caught on to Fred Price....then Marilyn Hickey.....they all sounded good on the surface, but I believe through discernment and maturity I came to see that God is more than just a geenie in a bottle.

I fell out with Fred Price when he said if you are going to watch his program and make that your church then your offering needs to be sent there......MAJOR RED FLAG on that statement.

Then he bragged about his Rolls Royce...please....:rolleyes

And then ther is Jessie (I have an airplane) Duplantis. Brags about his airplane. Wonder how many first class airline tickets he could have purchased for the cost of that airplane.....all made possible by the "love gifts" of faithful listeners. :tin

[sandy111]

seeker,
that was really well thought out and is what happens.
you gave some really good things to think about.

we have family that is into this and will not go around them
anymore. (cant think of the scripture that says to avoid them)
They really cause a lot of confusion in saying over and over and over "don't judge" and it just spirals from there in not being able to discern things, acually not allowing yourself to discern things.
then things go from bad to worse.
They use these phrases to control people.
the emotional toll is herendious.
Some totally turn against the Lord alltogether,
their heart grows hard.
Satan well orchestrated this deception no doubt about it.
But thank the Lord Jesus is greater!

[sandy111]

cameron,

thank-you for that! I wrote that one down and will keep it!

[Can't Wait!]

Sandy,
I was a casualty of WoF teaching. I say "was" because, praise God, he opened my eyes to that lie.

I was a baby christian when I started attending a WoF "church". You could pretty much count on the "pastor" preaching a sermon, almost verbatim, from one of the countless heretical shows on TBN. I guess he was too busy playing golf to come up with something original.
Those were the absolute worst and most confusing times in my walk with the Lord. I didn't understand why my finances weren't growing by leaps and bounds. After all, I was a compulsive tither. My kids were sick constantly it seemed, and I beat myself up constantly for not having enough faith to pray them well. I was binding and loosing like crazy, naming every "demon" I could think of and commanding him to lay off. I went through major feelings of inferiority because I couldn't seem to speak in tongues. I questioned God continually, because, if I quoted scripture to him in my prayers he HAD to answer, didn't he?
:rolleyes

It is a horrible deception. Its the ultimate pyramid scheme, and it has done nothing more than make the Christian community the laughing stock of the unsaved world.

[KrispyKritter]

WOF is a Western American cultural phenom. Only in a rich and affluent culture does WOF survive. It doesnt fly in the deepest regions of Africa where AIDS and death is becoming the norm, and poverty is rampant.

If a doctrine is of God, then it works everywhere in the world. If it only works in one or two places in the world, then it is not the Word of God.

[Teresa]

My sister and I have compared coming out of WoF to the wife that has been betrayed by her husband. First there is so much anger and pain. Then comes incredible sadness, confusion and doubt in yourself. You feel so stupid because you realize that the signs were always there and you just couldn't put it all together.

I do want to clear something up. Many believe that WoF is all about greed and not having to suffer in this life. What we got out of WoF was that God wanted his childeren to be blessed financially so that we would have enough to give back to the kingdom. They teach that if you are living in lack then how can you be a blessing to anyone else.

We did not have a church that we went to. So Christian T.V. was our church. Along with their newsletters and books that they recommened. I watched all the WoF teachers. Let me say real quick that it was not until I came to RR that I even knew that they were called WoF. To me they real men and women of God that knew the scriptures better than I ever could and they were people that God spoke to and gave new revelations. We were always told that God was doing a new thing, that it was a new season.
I learned from Oral Roberts that the greatest thing there is to understand about being a good Christian is to know about seed time and harvest. We are taught that God only works through our seed(money). We are taught that we are to remind God of His promises in the Bible and call forth our harvest by speaking the words of faith. We are never to doubt our faith. We are to call those things that are not as if they are.

Now when the formula does not work. When the harvest (i.e. money or healing)does not come in then there must be hidden sin in your life or you doubted your faith. We are taught that it is His will to bless us with the abundant life. Also we didn't look upon the faith teachers as greedy either. They spend a great deal of time telling you how much they give and do and that they can never out give God.

Its all very twisted and sick. They use enough truth and scripture twisting to get you to believe what they say. After all they constantly speak the name of Jesus, reading from His Word and singing such spiritual songs.

I did not know they practiced such heresy until I got on the web and went to site after site. The truth was right there in black and white. They totally teach a different Jesus and a different gospel. I will spend the rest of my days praising God that He got me and my sister out of this cult. My sister was on the edge of losing her faith. She is now learning about the true Joy of the Lord. We have been working hard on renewing our minds, and letting His will be done. Whatever that may be.

Sorry this is so long. I could go on and on. As you can tell this a subject that is very close to my heart. Thank you Sandy for starting this thread. It is my greatest prayer that people will see the truth and be set free before they are destroyed.

[toddlemom]

That's a good point about it being only a Western phenom.

We went to a WOF church for awhile. I will have to say when we started (we went there for 5 years I think) it was a pretty sound, well-organized church, just had a little more pizzazz in praise and worship, and prayer. HOwever ...

I think it's one thing to "let God have the last word" and search the Bible for what it says about a situation, which was what the pastor was preaching when he was on track. And we went through Romans verse by verse one winter, which was awesome. I will have to hand it to our former pastor, he was a very good teacher when he was on track.

It's another thing when pastor goes off on a bunny trail ... a couple of notable bunny trails were health food and Y2K. We felt like this was a waste of Sunday morning prime time, to talk about health food. And pastor seemed to think all the church's problems were about money although in retrospect there seemed to be a lot of organizational and interrelational problems.

This church WAS effective in some ways. It was the only place we would fellowship with a true cross-section of our community ... black, Hispanic, Anglo, inter-racical families, ex-cons, ex-Amish ... you'd think we'd have some awesome pitch-in dinners but the pastor had a thing about food (only a few certain things were OK) And don't even ask about the church elders ... when we left, there weren't any. Anyway ... this church did effectively bring in lots of people. And I did admire when we first went there, the focus on prayer for reconciliation and peace in our community, FOR fellowship across racial and denominational lines, and against hate groups like the KKK.

Eventually we went back to our home church. It's not flamboyant but sort of goes at a steady pace ... jsut seems more solidly grounded. A lot of focus on equipping members for evangelism and missions, which I like. What I think is weird is that it is SO lilly white. But, on the other hand, the church in a German protestant farm town is probably going to be pretty pale if it reflects the community around it! :lol

We're sort of glad that we dind't get too carried away with teh WOF church we went to. Although we miss the cross-cultural unity and warmth of fellowship ... we need to be discerning and take the kids where they will get fed good food, not junk food so to speak.

Sorry to write a book!
YSIC
ann

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by Teresa
Also we didn't look upon the faith teachers as greedy either. They spend a great deal of time telling you how much they give and do and that they can never out give God.

Yep... when the chicken sqawks the loudest, you can bet it's about to lay a big egg.

Whats interesting is that whenever a news organization exposes a WOF preacher, they always show that most of these charities and missionary groups they supposedly give to are nothing more than shams set up to look like they are giving. It's sick.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by toddlemom
[B]This church WAS effective in some ways. It was the only place we would fellowship with a true cross-section of our community ... black, Hispanic, Anglo, inter-racical families, ex-cons, ex-Amish ... [B]

This would have been good if not for the fact that this preacher is leading them all astray.

This does not apply to all super big churches that attract a lot of people... but I do get concerned at times when I hear of the huge popularity of some churches. The cross is an offense to the unsaved, and when the Word of God is held to in it's full counsel, it is not popular. So a lot of times I look at a church and have to wonder if there isnt something amiss when they get positive media coverage and things like that.

Around here in NC, Billy Graham and now Franklin Graham are viewed in a positive light... but it's taken a lifetime for that to happen. A lifetime of integrity and honesty. (Tho I do have issues with Graham's ecumenism... friendship w/ the Catholic Church for any who do not know what ecumenism means)

[sandy111]

can anyone help me with this question,

the relatives into WOF have what we call a hypnosis
thing where they can sin like the devil but folks still get pulled in
and think they are the greatest. I've never seen anything like it before.
One time we prayed that this "light" (don't know a better way to
say it) would go away. It did but returned. Not a light you acually see, its spiritual, I know its demonic but do not understand it.

[KrispyKritter]

I dont understand your question, Sandy...:confused

[sandy111]

krispy kritter,

its almost like what hitler, and clinton had. People dont like them but practically worship them in their presence.
thats the only way I can describe it.
Hope that helps.....
What is this thing????????It creeps me out.

[Joshua's Gen]

Cult of personality.

[Albernon]

...I believe in the word of faith movement.

Romans 10
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

I also believe in the wordS of faith movement.

1 Timothy 4
6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

;):

God Bless,
Albernon

[KrispyKritter]

It's called charisma and deception.

Just look at Benny Hinn.

[Joshua's Gen]

I believe in word of faith.

Biblically. Word(s) of faith.

Per the scripture posted.

However, I'd recommend not following any movements of any variety - if you think about it. ;):

Movements are man-made.
And all movements eventually find their way down the toilet.

:thumb

[seeker42]

I don’t believe in the Word of Faith movement. Or should I say I believe in its “reality”, just not its authenticity.


The Word of Faith Movement teaches that one can command God, and that one can do this using Words. The supposed basis for doing this is the Bible. But in Word of Faith, the Bible is treated much more like a book of Magic Incantations where the God of the Book must cooperate with those who have a copy of His
book.

This is comonly called Word of Faith. The Bible has another term for this: It is called Witchcraft. The belief that the Words in the Bible “activate” God and that God is compelled to respond because of the way that we pray ... is simply an attempt to bend God to our will. It is the exaltation of the self in the Name of God.

But it is not connecting to God in any real sense. Charles Capps, E.W. Kenyon, Branham and Copeland actually are much closer to Charles Manson and Anton LaVey or Judas, than they are to Jesus, at least the Jesus Christ who is the Son of God, the one who died and rose again and is coming back.

The fact is that Branham claimed to be in fear when interacting with the force that he was calling “ a Spirit”. HE said that the spirit he was interacting with was threatening him. Oral Roberts also seemed to describe a Jesus who threatened him. It was the 800 or 900 Foot Jesus that had told Oral Roberts that
Oral was going to have to die, if Oral could not raise a certain amount of money.

These teachings are not Biblical, and they are not from God. The Word of Faith movement is full of counterfeit doctrines, that are Anti-Christ. The Word of Faith movement is simply Witchcraft disguised in Christian terms. I wish I could say I’m sorry for saying that, but I’m not.

Don’t ask yourself if you are offended. Ask yourself if this is true. The teachings of E.W. Kenyon have much more in common with the standard teachings of Witchcraft than they do with the Bible. Additionally, the occultists teach that Satan is the one who will triumph. Not surprisingly, Word of Faith teachers affirm that Jesus had to let Satan triumph over Jesus by torturing him for 3 days.

That story is straight from Hell. It does not explain the resurrection. It mocks it ! Word of Faith teachers are simply the prelude to the symphony from an eternally dying being who knows that his own seven years of temporary evil will come to an end. Did you actually think that I was implying that Word of Faith teachings are from the Devil ?

You Did ? Well that is what I was trying to say.


Its not the Word of Faith movement we need. Its the Word of Jesus Christ.


In love,


Seeker

[seeker42]

the relatives into WOF have what we call a hypnosis
thing where they can sin like the devil but folks still get pulled in
and think they are the greatest. I've never seen anything like it before.
One time we prayed that this "light" (don't know a better way to
say it) would go away. It did but returned. Not a light you acually see, its spiritual, I know its demonic but do not understand it.

its almost like what hitler, and clinton had. People dont like them but practically worship them in their presence. thats the only way I can describe it.
Hope that helps.....
What is this thing????????It creeps me out


==============

WOF – Waves of Deception


You are attempting to describe what happens when a demonic spirit interacts with a human in an attempt to deceive them. It is a phenomenon difficult to describe. Should others wish to view this with skepticisim, I would only say, so much the better.

You are trying to describe something intangible. It is kind of like being in love, along with a very "sweet" feeling, almost like a rich pastry, whose richness almost renders the sweetness intoxicating.

( I am not talking about “demon possession” here. I am rather describing the feelings or impressions that occur to those who are present in Word of Faith meetings where demonic forces interact with the people in that setting).


It is a feeling of being irresistibly being drawn to something, while at the same time knowing that something is not right with the situation, with the spiritual temperature of the room. It is the feeling that nothing matters any more, not the doctrines, not the teachings, not the people. At that moment, most people feel as though they have found their connection to God.

In a public setting, it sweeps over the audience like a wave washing over polished rocks. Its strength makes it almost palpable, but it causes an “intensification of focus” on wherever the gate is that either invites or allows this power to manifest its presence. IF this is the “teacher” up on stage, then all eyes and hearts focus on that message. If it is on a healing in front of the Church altar, then that is where the focus of all
turns to. Wherever the focus of that audience is, that is the gateway. People who have strong spiritual discernment and the protection of the Holy Spirit as a result of being grounded in the Bible and knowing God’s word are able to put on their spiritual armor.

We notice that there is something unusual about Armor. It is not an Armored “Tank”. It is not a re-enforced "fortress". Spiritual Armor as the Bible describes it is only good for one person, one person at a time. We each can put it on, but no one can wear the armor for another. A suit of armor is exclusive in the sense that it cannot be shared. Therefore the effects of a person with spiritual armor can be felt by others, but it takes each of us to put on our spiritual armor, for people to be able to discern this phenomena.

To those who do not know what has taken place in a meeting of this nature, they will refer to this as an outpouring of the Spirit. It certainly was, only not the HOLY spirit. The strange thing about this phenomenon is that most people who are in WOF cannot recognize it in the moment, but when they leave WOF, then, they are able to recognize it, even though they have trouble describing it.

It has been described some in two books, a) the “beautiful side of evil” by Joanna Michaelsen and b) “when the world will be at one” by Tal Brooke. The closest thing visually I have seen that recreates this – for better or for worse – is found in the latest Matrix movie, where you get a look at the underground city called Zion. The city is called Zion in the movie, but it actually seems to be much more like Ancient Babylon.

[seeker42]

a hypnosis thing

What the WOF people are experiencing in the moment, is called an “altered state of consciousness”.
But this is demonically induced, rather than merely being induced by drugs. Consequently, it is much more powerful than drug.

Both “lucid dreaming” and “conscious hypnosis” would almost seem to fit, while at the same time falling to convey the strength of the emotions involved. It is much more like the drug that keeps on giving, and often it does not let go.

The Hypnosis thing happens when the people who were in the audience take this state-of-mind back home with them. They are still the same people, with the same personality, but their mindset and orientation is somehow different. Essentially though they will most certainly deny it, they still are spiritual but they are having their spiritual polarity reversed.

What is really baffling is that to those who see it in SOME of the WOF people, it is obvious or recognizable. But to the people themselves who are in the grasp of this influence, they will forever deny that this is happening to them. But an observer who has strong spiritual discernment and is Biblically grounded can still tell, because the Holy Spirit inside of them is freaking out: Saying WAKE UP !
WAKE UP ! Something is not right here !!!, and then the person who is trying to use discernment starts to feel very tired, because this spiritual warfare is very draining.

When those things happen, that is the Holy Spirit telling you to suit up, to put on your suit of Armor, and to
immediately start praying, and start saying Bible verses, and start asking the Lord for much greater discernment and spiritual clarification in accordance with Biblical Teachings and Sound Doctrine, because
it is first of all important that you do not become deceived yourself, in the process of interacting with the other persons who are deceived. This is still an “intangible” to most people. But in the next few years, I think this will be common place. This is certainly more common these days, than it was a few years ago.

===

Back to the moment when the WOF people walking out of their church/meeting with the experience that stays with them. They “quit the experience”, but the experience didn’t quit them. First of all with those people one of two things are occurring:

1. They are being spiritually deceived and have accepted this to happen to them, and

2. They are being demonically oppressed or possessed.



I do not believe that true Christians can be demon-possessed. So that is where I stand on that issue. But back to the point.


If a person truly has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit inside of them, then how can they become demonically oppressed ?

The short answer is that they can do this by consenting to allow spiritual forces of evil in their life, that
1) should not be there and 2) that the Bible has commanded us to stay away from, and 3) by failing to deliberately consciously resist it.

Either those people were saved and are oppressed or they are not saved and only thought they were or claimed that they were:

Here is a passage in the Bible that seems to address this:

Marc 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.


What happens at some WOF meetings is that the audience not only allows this phenomenon the first time, but encourages this and craves it all the more the next time. For them – because they are so undiscerning – that they mistake the phenomena being described here – as the power of the Holy Spirit instead of recognizing it is a demonic spirit. As a result of failing to test the Spirits – in this case literally – The intoxication and mind-change that comes over the audience is something that you find the audience members welcoming with open arms.

These people are inviting their own deception and their own destruction. I do not explain the “How” of it, but I know of this kind of phenomenon that occurs in at least 2 contexts: a) WOF meetings and training sessions b) New Age events. Some rock concerts could have also seemed like this, but at a WOF meeting, it is both 1) stronger and 2) more subtle.


Read the books of Kurt Koch or Marc Bubek. They explain some of this stuff. Some times, you can see this on TBN. You know that what the guy speaking just said was Total heresy. But you hear the audience clapping and you see them just shaking their heads in the affirmative, to encourage it.

[Joshua's Gen]

Its conversations like these that like to make me tinker and see how people's minds think.

If God's word is true, He can not break it - for God is not a liar, and His word is settled in heaven - the same word He exalts above His own name, then surely it should be settled in our hearts, no?

I like to see where people draw the lines as to not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

If anything we ask for in the name of Jesus shall be given to us - - as we abide in Christ, and He abides in us - - and our desires conform to His desires - - then surely whatever we ask for would be inline with His will, and we would receive that which we petitioned of.

Is 'reminding' God of His word, and claiming the promises that are yea and amen too riske?

[seeker42]

About that light

I have heard others describe experiences like this. The best thing to do is to start praying, and praising the Lord, and out loud if possible, and with others. I would try to take someone with me if I knew that I was going to be in these situations, just so that we can keep an eye on each other and try to ensure that we are not being deceived nor accepting lies as though they were truth.

I would play Christian music, (I mean Real Christian music that honors God, not “Ozzy Ozborne sings Jesus Tunes”). If this happened inside a house, I would invite friends over for a room-by-room praiseathon.
That is where you spend time in each room praising the Lord for the different things he has done for you,
and asking for the protection of Jesus and the Blood of Jesus over each and every room, for as long as you
live there and anyone you know lives there (at the least). And if you do not have someone to do this with, you can still do it by yourself, room by room.

I am not saying that anyone is obligated to do this. I am only saying I think it is a good idea. (That is often what is done in the houses/homes where a person knows that they did have experiences with demonic forces).

I don’t think that the true Character of these WOF teachings will be revealed until the Man of Perdition is here, but I do think that they will go 90% of the way. So I believe that those events and meetings will continue to get spiritually darker, but that those meetings will be increasingly spiritually deceptive, with
people continuing to insist that their god is at work. He probably will be, but it won’t be the real Jesus Christ.

Some people today still believe that one has to be into the occult before a demon finds them. I believe that this use to be true. But no longer. I think that before, demons were kind of working on a first-come, first-serve basis. But now that their time is short, that they respond not only to those will occult interests, but those with certain levels of sin in their lives. In this manner, a person can go to a WOF meeting and not understand how they are affected by demonic forces, because they still have areas of their life that they have not turned over to the Lord. (This would be in addition to the fact of them making the choice to fail to test the spirits there, and to be willing to Uncritically accept the teachings there – without comparing them to the Bible. But then again, most of the people at WOF meetings have already made that choice – whether by intent or by default).

But to get back to the issue of sin in a person’s life for a second, what begins the process of deception is the degree to which that person had previously opened themselves up to doing things that were wrong in the first place.

While perfection is not something totally achievable in this life, I think that it will be something that more and more Christians actively seek after, especially as they become aware of how much easier – these days – it is becoming – to be deceived.

But even when people leave the WOF movement, leaving because a person realizes it is morally and theologically wrong, or leaving because a person knows they have been lied to – those motives are not the same. Some people leave the WOF movement because it did not work for them. But they never repent of having accepted false teachings, or of allowing themselves to be influenced by demonic forces. While it is true that people can obviously not repent of what they do not know, I wonder if some who have left WOF
still do not seek to find out the truth. At that point, I think that they have allowed the spiritual enemy to establish a stronghold in their life, because this is not redressed with the Lord.

Out of those who leave WOF, I believe that some will go back and be more deceived the second time around. I would continue to pray for relatives, and try to have conversations with them that cause them to start thinking about these issues. I would also pray before and after the conversation, that truth would not be snatched from these individuals, and that the Holy Spirit would ensure that they hear the truth and accuracy of those who warn them about WOF, but

Often the challenge is that those who are in WOF have no other spiritual model. They don’t know what they would do – if they were not in WOF. A person who can tell them about the strength of their own personal walk with God, may be able to help WOF people to understand that there IS a much better alternative out there, such as personal Bible study and a strong prayer time.

What I would watch for as I interact with the WOF people, is the degree of feelings that they are having trouble giving up...if they give up WOF. It seems that in many cases, what they don’t want to give up ...is that overpowering feeling of being connected to a higher being outside of themselves, that they mistakenly thought was the HOLY Spirit.


Seeker

[seeker42]

If God's word is true, He can not break it - for God is not a liar, and His word is settled in heaven - the same word He exalts above His own name, then surely it should be settled in our hearts, no?

I like to see where people draw the lines as to not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

If anything we ask for in the name of Jesus shall be given to us - - as we abide in Christ, and He abides in us - - and our desires conform to His desires - - then surely whatever we ask for would be inline with His will, and we would receive that which we petitioned of.

Is 'reminding' God of His word, and claiming the promises that are yea and amen too riske?


========

I believe that when Christians pray, that they are often asking God to do something. I do not believe that a prayer which is truly Christ-oriented can “Compell” or Force God to do anything.

And that is one of the key differences between “normal” prayer and the WOF prayers. Although God has said that he will respond to our prayers, and that He will answer our prayers, He does not say that He will always answer our prayers either by saying
1) yes or 2) in accordance with Our Own will.

What the Bible states is that God wants us to pray “in accordance with His will”. Some prayers God answers “Yes”, but others He answers “No” or “Not now” or “Wait” or
“not this way”.

Therefore the act of praying by a true Christian often allows for the personal uncertainty of the Christian who is praying, either that His prayers will be automatically answered by God saying “Yes” or the uncertainty that this praying Christian simply may not be sure of what the Will of God is nor how to pray – which is why the Holy Spirit would help us pray (Rom 8).


However, WoF arrogantly asserts that because a Christian prays, that God is Compelled to respond in the affimative to each and every answer – in the manner that a person wants – if the right amount of Faith is there.

That is not theologically correct. Paul prayed three times for his thorn in the flesh to be removed. Paul had faith, and a righteous life, and good theology. But his prayer was not answered by God saying “Yes” to that particular circumstance.

What WOF does – is deny God the ability to be and remain volitional. It suggests that God cannot make up His own mind but that He must respond to every craving and desire we have, IF we only have “enough faith”.

This is simply “Wish-craft”, better known as witchcraft. IN witchcraft, the object in which one places one’s faith (for answers to prayers or incantations) is in the Impersonal Force which is doing the answering to that prayer. That is what WOF does. It is not faith in Jesus Christ, nor submission to His sovereign will. It is rather instead placing faith – IN “Faith”.



God is not a vending machine.

To ask God to be more Godly or for Him to help us have stronger character or attributes which are Godly, is good – because we know that when we make those requests, that He has already said to us that those are Already IN His Will. Therefore in those cases, we can
be Presumptive about what to ask for, because this clearly what the Bible teaches about certain characteristics that HE wants us to have.

Those kinds of prayers are good, wise, edifying, constructive, and Biblical.

However the problem starts when we take things such as possessions or wealth that we want to have, and then attempt to compel God to give us those things...because supposedly Humans can compell God through prayer. That is not praying in accordance with the Will of God. That is asking God to allow our desires to triumph over His will. But WOF teachings stress this all the time: that being Healthy and Wealthy are AUTOMATICALLY the will of God for each of our lives. And that is neither true nor Biblical.

However, to those of you who believe it is, I would like to ask you to send me $ 100 per person who reads this, so that you can "“plant your seed of faith”.

---

But seriously, there is nothing wrong with reminding God of His promises, so long as those are His Promises, in accordance with His will. A lot of people trust God for promises He never made, and that is what WOF teachings advocate.


Seeker

[tuco22]

I agree with seeker 42. It is witchcraft disguised as Christianity. I attended a Harvester's Church briefly, which is essentially a WOF church, and yes, they had all the WOF preachers literature there, but one Sunday during a Foundations class (which is a substitute for Sunday school, essentially) I mentioned something about my husband, and the guy teaching the class sharply rebuked me, saying that whatever I said would become a reality. Well, my best friend's daughter is caught up in witchcraft, and so because of that I had been studying up on it, because the only idea I had of witchcraft prior to this was what I had gotten from watching Bewitched on TV in the 60's, and one of the things I learned about it was their ability to "speak into reality" certain thigns they wanted, or wanted done, while using other devices like spells, etc. So, right away, when I heard this guy say this, I was reminded of what I had read about witchcraft. And then I had an experience where I came face to face with a demon, or fallen angel, that inhabited a woman pastor asked us to pray for one Sunday morning. She was a black woman, and everyone was gathered around her praying for her (in tongues, except for me, because I dont' do that), and I couldn't reach her because I'm rather short, so I knelt down outside of the "ring" of people praying for her, and reached in between them and laid my hand on her arm. She got this look on her face like she was sucking on a lemon or something, and then her eyes flew open and she stared right at me, and she had blue eyes! But I could still see the brown of her own eyes on top of the blue. It was like the blue was under the brown. And what was staring back at me hated me with a hatred I've never seen in a human being before. I kept staring back because I'd never seen anything like that before; I almost asked it who it was, because I knew it wasn't her. That experience, along with pastor tellling us at another service that we weren't supposed to use the term "saved" anymore, because it was "Christianese", made me start looking around for another church. Yes, WOF is witchcraft disguised as Christianity. Stay away from it.

[toddlemom]

Originally posted by Joshua's Gen
Its conversations like these that like to make me tinker and see how people's minds think.

If God's word is true, He can not break it - for God is not a liar, and His word is settled in heaven - the same word He exalts above His own name, then surely it should be settled in our hearts, no?

I like to see where people draw the lines as to not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

If anything we ask for in the name of Jesus shall be given to us - - as we abide in Christ, and He abides in us - - and our desires conform to His desires - - then surely whatever we ask for would be inline with His will, and we would receive that which we petitioned of.

Is 'reminding' God of His word, and claiming the promises that are yea and amen too riske?

I think when we pray and search the Bible and "claim" these promises, we are not reminding God ... after all, He wrote the book ;): ... but reminding US. :lol Reminding us of what God has done in the past and of His sovreignty.

Good things came out of the church we went to for awhile. I was convicted that a "gimme, gimme, God, you owe" me attitude was as rank of sin as murder. And ... in any situation ... let God have the last word.

Someone earlier said they felt our former pastor was leading people astray. Well, honestly, he wanted to bring more of the Toronto Blessing idea home but the congregation was not sold on it. Many sat there going ... :confused ... "what ...?" I guess that was the biggest bunny trail, IMHO. Many left at that point. You could almost say the church imploded.

The church we used to attend is now down to about 30 people, from 300 at one point. Many, many have gone to different churches.

I'd love to have a "has beens" party and sort of debrief and see what everyone thought and why they left. Especially in light of what you all have discussed.

But, I think the Toronto Blessing/holy laughter thing is what derailed our former church.

YSIC
Ann

[sandy111]

Seeker thank-you for the in-depth imput!
and thank-you everyone else too...

I would like to hear any more thoughts on this,
I too believe its witchcraft and the spiritual polarity does change,
These relatives with this "spirit" have a hypnotic affect on people where ever they go.
Now mind you their poor as dirt which is ironic concidering the WOF concepts, The whole thing is just bizarre! thats why I asked about it.

In the give-me, give-me, mindset WOF has no concern for the lost. For those who have given all to the Lord, even to the extent of their lifes, they'd be told......
"you just did'nt have enought faith", cold and calloused,
hard if you will, not the tenderheartedness we are told to have for one another.

[Changes]

I would play Christian music, (I mean Real Christian music that honors God, not “Ozzy Ozborne sings Jesus Tunes”).


seeker42,

could you expound on this?

esp. * Real Christian music*...