Interesting analogy regarding OSAS

[ChopinFan]

I was discussing the OSAS issue with a dear preacher friend in India, and he shared this analogy with me. It's rather simple, but I thought it was worth passing on. He shared with me that this doctrine is very popular in America because we have a "buffet" mentality here. You can find a church on any corner of any given street that will offer you the doctrines that you prefer. Ok, here's the analogy....

A person can buy a plane ticket. That ticket has been purchased. It has been bought with a price. That ticket reserves a place for that individual on the plane. As long as the individual shows up on time at the airport with his ticket and boards the plane, he will arrive at the destination eventually.

However, if the person fails to meet the conditions (in this case, showing up at the airport on time, and boarding the plane) the plane will leave without him. So you see, it's not enough just to have the ticket- you've gotta board the plane!

One day (in the not too distant future), the ark of God is going to set sail, just as it did in the days of Noah. Let's make sure we're on the ark when it sets sail for a city whose builder and maker is God!

God bless,
ChopinFan

[John Tyson]

Grace and peace to you all.

My Ark already set sail and is sitting at the right hand of the Father.

God bless,
John

[RedBall]

As long as the individual shows up on time at the airport with his ticket and boards the plane, he will arrive at the destination eventually.

You mean to say, as long as the saved individual shows up on time to church every week and does other righteous works, then he will go to heaven.

Sorry, Charlie, I don't have a mortgage payment on my mansion.

[MercifullySaved]

Originally posted by ChopinFan
I was discussing the OSAS issue with a dear preacher friend in India, and he shared this analogy with me. It's rather simple, but I thought it was worth passing on. He shared with me that this doctrine is very popular in America because we have a "buffet" mentality here. You can find a church on any corner of any given street that will offer you the doctrines that you prefer. Ok, here's the analogy....

A person can buy a plane ticket. That ticket has been purchased. It has been bought with a price. That ticket reserves a place for that individual on the plane. As long as the individual shows up on time at the airport with his ticket and boards the plane, he will arrive at the destination eventually.

However, if the person fails to meet the conditions (in this case, showing up at the airport on time, and boarding the plane) the plane will leave without him. So you see, it's not enough just to have the ticket- you've gotta board the plane!

One day (in the not too distant future), the ark of God is going to set sail, just as it did in the days of Noah. Let's make sure we're on the ark when it sets sail for a city whose builder and maker is God!

God bless,
ChopinFan

Couldn't one argue that one has boarded the plane once they accept Christ as Lord and Savior? That's how I'd answer that analogy. :sigh

[RedBall]

Yes, just as Noah was "saved" as soon as he entered the ark, we are already in Christ.

[ChopinFan]

Well, I expected my OSAS buddies to be all over this ;):

I believe the scriptures state that the Holy Spirit is the "earnest" of our redemption. In other words, God has put a deposit down on our salvation, but we must "endure unto the end" in order to fulfill our end of the contract.

[RedBall]

But what you describe is a works-based salvation, which would not have required Christ to die for our sins.

[ChopinFan]

Originally posted by RedBall
But what you describe is a works-based salvation, which would not have required Christ to die for our sins.

Classic OSAS response :yawn

Since when is enduring unto the end a "work" ?

Was it a "work" when you placed your faith in Christ?

Was it a "work" when you repented of your sins?

[Timothy]

Some additional things need to be included with the analogy. If the analogy is true, then:

1 - It is up to the believer to arrange for and pay for transportation to the airport, on their own.
2 - It is up to the individual believer to ensure that he personally passes through the checkpoint security screening process, on their own.
3 - It is up to the individual believer to ensure he makes it on time through all of the above, on their own.

If the anaology is true - the blood of Christ is of none effect, because it is totally contingent on our works. We sure better study every detail of the Law because if we break one single rule, we might not get through that security checkpoint and might miss the plane! The analogy is saying it is up to us, not the blood of Christ. Oh, and don't forget to bring some of your own cash to make some payments on our own, because the blood of Christ was only a partial payment. Again, the analogy is saying that making that plane ride is totally up to us, not the blood of Christ.

I don't know about you, but I'm already am a citizen of heaven but only temporarily here as an ambassador in a foreign land. My return flight is "paid in full" end to end on Crosswork of Christ Airlines.

[RedBall]

Since when is enduring unto the end a "work" ?

What would you call failing to endure to the end? Sinning? Not doing all the little things a good Christian should? Or renouncing Christ?

[Grow with God]

One thing I don't understand about OSNAS is, how do you know when you're good enough? All Christians struggle with sin. If you think you are a good enough Christian and have maintained your salvation by doing all the right things, maybe you have an issue with pride.

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by ChopinFan
Was it a "work" when you placed your faith in Christ?

Was it a "work" when you repented of your sins? John 6

26 Jesus answered them and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."
28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
30 So they said to Him, "What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?
31 "Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, 'HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.'"
32 Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.
33 "For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world."
34 Then they said to Him, "Lord, always give us this bread."
35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.
37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

[ChopinFan]

Originally posted by RedBall
What would you call failing to endure to the end? Sinning? Or renouncing Christ?

I'd be interested in hearing your answer to the question first. :):

But just to give you a preview to my response:

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

[RedBall]

If you ever get to the point where you're pretty sure you haven't sinned at all for a whole week straight, you'll have to let me in on your secret. 'Cos if Jesus only paid for the sins we've committed up until the point when we got saved, then even the tiniest of sins after that point would be enough to disquality us from heaven.

[Hootmon]

Just what is your definition of 'overcome', ChopinFan?

[ChopinFan]

Originally posted by Hootmon
Just what is your definition of 'overcome', ChopinFan?

I John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

I guess the fundamental question then becomes how do we define "faith" . Is it merely "believing" in Jesus (for even the devils do that.....and tremble according to James), or is it something more than that.

[RedBall]

Here's mine:

1 Corinthians 15:54-57 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Hully30]

[QUOTE]I believe the scriptures state that the Holy Spirit is the "earnest" of our redemption. In other words, God has put a deposit down on our salvation, but we must "endure unto the end" in order to fulfill our end of the contract.[\Quote]


There is no 'contract'. When a Christian excepts Christ, He puts a deposit into our hearts guaranteeing His purchase of us and insuring our inheritance in Him. It is the Life of Christ within us that saves us and His power that keeps us.

1 Peter 1
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[Timothy]

Originally posted by Grow with God
One thing I don't understand about OSNAS is, how do you know when you're good enough? All Christians struggle with sin. If you think you are a good enough Christian and have maintained your salvation by doing all the right things, maybe you have an issue with pride.

No one else may say it, but I will - it's almost a Catholic doctrine in a way. What specifically determines when you are saved, and then unsaved? If we can be unsaved, then we are back to square one. Then 30+ things that happen to us when we are saved, all have to get undone: we get unsealed, we get uncircumcised, Christ cuts off part of his body, etc. All our sins are then reversed and given back to us? We then somehow get resaved, and the blood of Christ repays for all of our sins all over again a second time? Sounds sort of like a Catholic mass to me....

Romans 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once...

[ChopinFan]

Originally posted by Hully30
I believe the scriptures state that the Holy Spirit is the "earnest" of our redemption. In other words, God has put a deposit down on our salvation, but we must "endure unto the end" in order to fulfill our end of the contract.


There is no 'contract'. When a Christian excepts Christ, He puts a deposit into our hearts guaranteeing His purchase of us and insuring our inheritance in Him. It is the Life of Christ within us that saves us and His power that keeps us.

1 Peter 1
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Hi Hully :wave (good to see ya brother!)

Notice your reference in verse 5 above- we are "kept....by faith " ready to be revealed in the last time.

It is a living faith (not a dead one) that keeps us.

[RedBall]

I guess you could say the devils have head knowledge, but no heart knowledge. The devils do not have faith.

[Hully30]

Hey there Chopin,

Notice your reference in verse 5 above- we are "kept....by faith " ready to be revealed in the last time.

I would argue that the passage says that we are 'kept' by the power of God.......'through' faith.

We accept Christ through faith and believe in Him and his redemptive work He did for us on the cross......and then we are kept by Him unto salvation...

What do you think of that?

[Grow with God]

Originally posted by RedBall
I guess you could say the devils have head knowledge, but no heart knowledge. The devils do not have faith.

Ephesians 2:8, 9

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.


:thumb

[AnotherOldGuy]

Another analogy:

After my dad got sick, he prepaid his funeral expenses. And he did it by giving them a piece of paper with his signature on it. They in turn gave him a receipt - sealing the deal. When the time came my mom received a statement saying "Services rendered - Paid in full".


edit: changed wording

[Grow with God]

GAL 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
GAL 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
GAL 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
GAL 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
GAL 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
GAL 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.




ROM 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
ROM 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.



EPH 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,




EPH 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

[Hootmon]

I dont want to be responsible for derailing this thread.

For a rather detailed discussion on 'Faith vs. Faith plus Works', please see the thread I started in Apologetics with that title.

Its somewhere on page 2 now...

[ChopinFan]

I'll take a look at your thread Hootmon.

(ps: don't worry about derailing this thread- every OSAS thread I've ever taken part in goes in a gazillion different directions :nod )

Grow with God: Lovely verses you are posting- I agree with them 100 %

Redball: I understand where you are coming from- none of us are without sin. But I still stand by what the scriptures say about holiness (that without it, no man shall see the LORD-Hebrews 12).
Let me ask you something ( and not trying to be sarcastic ok). Will there be unrepentant fornicators and adulterers in heaven? Is there such a thing as Christian fornication and "worldly" fornication?

Hully: We are not really that far apart in our thinking. I see what you see there in that passage, but I also see where man plays a part in the salvation process. Yes, it is God's power that keeps, but man must also maintain a faith in that power.

[Timothy]

Originally posted by ChopinFan ...Let me ask you something ( and not trying to be sarcastic ok). Will there be unrepentant fornicators and adulterers in heaven?

Assuming the person was saved, to answer your question directly, yes.

Keep it simple, and make it generically "sin." "Sin" is sin. Let's say you (a "saved" person) have a really bad day, and think some sinful thoughts (which is sin), or you snap at someone and say something nasty, etc. Again, sin is sin. You are not "repentant" as you indicate in the question. You are killed later on the day on the way home from work. By your account, are you unsaved? How much sin does it take to get unsaved? How long do you have to turn your back on God? One minute, an hour, a day, a week?

[ChopinFan]

Originally posted by Timothy
Assuming the person was saved, to answer your question directly, yes.

Keep it simple, and make it generically "sin." "Sin" is sin. Let's say you (a "saved" person) have a really bad day, and think some sinful thoughts (which is sin), or you snap at someone and say something nasty, etc. Again, sin is sin. You are not "repentant" as you indicate in the question. You are killed later on the day on the way home from work. By your account, are you unsaved? How much sin does it take to get unsaved? How long do you have to turn your back on God? One minute, an hour, a day, a week?

I agree Timothy, let's keep it simple.....or even better, how about scriptural .

I Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God

Does the bible make exceptions for "Christians" who do those things?

Or what about this?

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

Is there an exception if they are "Christian" murderers, liars, whoremongers, etc. ?

Notice there is a dichotomy made between these and "the unbelieving" in that verse.

Simple answers will do :):

[Timothy]

Originally posted by ChopinFan ...Yes, it is God's power that keeps, but man must also maintain a faith in that power.

Faith in scripture is not always ours. There is also God's faith - the faith of Christ (not in) - his faith to carry out his promises.

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

[Timothy]

Originally posted by ChopinFan
I Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God

Does the bible make exceptions for "Christians" who do those things?

Next Verse:
I Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Notice - they are saved and it is not the result of anything that they did. It's all past tense, they are washed, they are santified, they are justified. It is all the work of God. So you are saying that salvation dependent on our righteousness?

is there an exception if they are "Christian" murderers, liars, whoremongers, etc. ?

We are all liars. Just thinking a lie makes us all liars. The verse says "all liars" have a part in the lake of fire. So the minute we think of a lie, you are saying we unsaved?

[ChopinFan]

Originally posted by Timothy
Next Verse:
I Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Notice - they are saved and it is not the result of anything that they did. It's all past tense, they are washed, they are santified, they are justified. It is all the work of God. So you are saying that salvation dependent on our righteousness?



Just thinking a lie makes us all liars. So the minute we do this, you are saying we unsaved?

Ok, (thanks for answering Timothy :): )

Yes, the next verse says they are justified and sanctified. But if they go back to that lifestyle, will they inherit the kingdom of God? I never said their salvation was the result of anything they did. But why does Paul (actually the Holy Spirit) even go to the trouble to list these sins to a group of sanctified believers there at Corinth? Was it merely an exercise in futility?

I realize you are an adamant defender of OSAS theology Timothy. But I fear that your love for this doctrine has clouded your ability to view the scriptures effectively. What you are teaching, is that the Christian who practices fornication is saved, meanwhile the unbeliever who does this is condemned. I believe scripture sharply rebukes your position. You have all of these escape clauses added into the text.

[Timothy]

Trust me ChopinFan, I grappled with the doctrine of eternal security for quite some time. Everyone, even in the Apostle Paul's day, had a hard time grasping the dispensation of grace and gospel of grace (grace through faith and nothing else) that was (first) revealed to Paul. First, it is imperative to recognize the distinctiveness of Paul's gospel. Second, it is imperative to recognize that the doctrine of eternal security was (first) revealed to Paul.

Eternal security (by grace through faith alone) was a doctrine so new, that man had terrible trouble understanding it even in Paul's own day.

II Peter 3:15-16 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

One of the common objections that Paul received was that if all our sins (past, present and future) are forgiven, that's a "license to sin." People even twisted Paul's gospel of grace to say that we should keep sinning so more good may come.

Romans 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

What was Paul's response to this "license to sin" objection?

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

You specific example is of a Christian who practices fornication. Your example is addressed in I Corithians.

I Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

There was fornication amoung the saints (saved people) at Corinth. Does Paul anywhere indicate that these fornicating Christian's are unsaved, at the risk of being unsaved, etc.? In fact, quite the opposite. He mentions that their sin will lead to destruction of their flesh (their earthly life), but they are still saved!!

I Corinthians 5:4 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The term "carnal Christian" originates from I Corithians. Though there is sin amoung them, he still addresses them as being saved.

I Corinthians 3:1-3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

When the distinctiveness of Paul's gospel of grace is recognized, the blood and crosswork of Christ takes on a whole new meaning.

[Grow with God]

Originally posted by Timothy

I Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

There was fornication amoung the saints (saved people) at Corinth. Does Paul anywhere indicate that these fornicating Christian's are unsaved, at the risk of being unsaved, etc.? In fact, quite the opposite. He mentions that their sin will lead to destruction of their flesh (their earthly life), but they are still saved!!

I Corinthians 5:4 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

When the distinctiveness of Paul's gospel of grace is recognized, the blood and crosswork of Christ takes on a whole new meaning.

:thumb

When you sin, not only do you physically die, you grieve the Holy Spirit.

Again:

EPH 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

But lose your salvation? No! Then how would any of us have a chance at salvation?

[Mrs. Hoppes]

:popcorn

[Robin]

I have a hard time with the OSAS position almost every time I read the Word. What do you all do with the following verses?
(And these are just a few of the many I can't make fit that theology.)

Romans 11:21-22: For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, IF you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you will be cut off.

I Tim 4:1: Now the Spirit expressly says that in the latter times some will depart from the faith giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctines of demons..."

Heb 3: 14: For we have become partakeers of Christ IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.

2 Peter 3:17: You therefore, beloved, since you know these things beforehand, BEWARE lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked.

I sometimes think of children of Israel...they were redeemed thru the passover lamb and delivered out of bondage and yet only 2 passed over into the promise land. It does make me "...conduct myself throughout my sojourning here in fear!" (1 Peter 1:17)

[Chronus]

I John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
I found it interesting that you quoted this verse. Yes, it does provide a nice example of overcoming (as you so elegantly emphasized). However, it appears that you fail to take notice of WHO it is that overcomes. The commandments are kept by the Christian because they are not grevious. Why? It says, "whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world". It DOES NOT say "whatsoever is born of God MAY overcometh the world". John then repeats the matter in 5:5. Take note, it is the Christian who overcomes the world . . . it is not overcoming the world that makes the Christian. We are predestined to become conformed to the image of Jesus Christ (Romans 8:29).
:):

[Lonewolf7]

Originally posted by ChopinFan
Classic OSAS response :yawn

Since when is enduring unto the end a "work" ?

Was it a "work" when you placed your faith in Christ?

Was it a "work" when you repented of your sins? 2



Romans 12
3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you

Timothy 2
25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

[Lonewolf7]

Originally posted by ChopinFan
Hi Hully :wave (good to see ya brother!)

Notice your reference in verse 5 above- we are "kept....by faith " ready to be revealed in the last time.

It is a living faith (not a dead one) that keeps us.

Galatians 3:22
But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

The promise of the Spirit.....is the result of our faith. We believe...He sees that and gives us His Holy Spirit which IS eternal life. THAT IS salvation....that which makes us NOT spiritually dead.

Titus 3:5 tells us the complete story of salvation and Romans 8:11 finishes it.

It is a living faith (not a dead one) that keeps us
Jude 1:24
To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy–

Philippians 1:6
being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Can God really do all of that?? Can He get us all the way to heaven?

Romans 4:21
being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised

[Lonewolf7]

Originally posted by ChopinFan


Originally posted by Hootmon
Just what is your definition of 'overcome', ChopinFan?


(ChopinFan's answer is...)
I John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.



James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.


You do not overcome by keeping the law....you overcome by gaining His Holy Spirit.

[Lonewolf7]

Originally posted by ChopinFan
Yes, it is God's power that keeps, but man must also maintain a faith in that power.

Titus 3
5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

1 Corinthians 6
19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

Yes, it is God's power that keeps, but man must also maintain a faith in that power.
2 Timothy 2
13if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

ChopinFan.... GOD physically lives in a christian body. That is HOW He saves us...how He makes us 'good enough' for heaven.

He cannot disown Himself in the christian...because HE still lives physically in the christian.

Romans 8:11 finishes the story.

[Livin4Jesus]

I just want to reiterate a question asked to ChopinFan earlier: If a Christian who is truly saved dies suddenly before repenting for lying to her husband about exactly how much her new dress cost will she go to hell? Do we have to repent of every single sin we have ever committed to go to heaven and if you feel the answer is "yes" then how would anyone ever go to heaven? Unless of course they knew that they would be dying soon and had time to repent for every single thing. Hopefully then they would die before they had time to sin again!

I have mixed feelings about this issue but I just don't believe in my heart that God only allows those into heaven who have repented of every single thing they've done, even of those sins committed just minutes before death. If this is true, we must all live in total fear of death and confess every sin the second we commit it in order to be saved. NOBODY will live a completely sin-free life--we will not stop sinning completely until we die or Jesus returns, so how could anyone possibly go to heaven? I believe that every one of us will die without completely conquering sin--there will always be something that we just hadn't been able to permanently refrain from doing. Don't you agree?

[My Abba's Child]

Originally posted by Timothy
Trust me ChopinFan, I grappled with the doctrine of eternal security for quite some time. Everyone, even in the Apostle Paul's day, had a hard time grasping the dispensation of grace and gospel of grace (grace through faith and nothing else) that was (first) revealed to Paul. First, it is imperative to recognize the distinctiveness of Paul's gospel. Second, it is imperative to recognize that the doctrine of eternal security was (first) revealed to Paul.

Eternal security (by grace through faith alone) was a doctrine so new, that man had terrible trouble understanding it even in Paul's own day.

II Peter 3:15-16 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

One of the common objections that Paul received was that if all our sins (past, present and future) are forgiven, that's a "license to sin." People even twisted Paul's gospel of grace to say that we should keep sinning so more good may come.

Romans 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

What was Paul's response to this "license to sin" objection?

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

You specific example is of a Christian who practices fornication. Your example is addressed in I Corithians.

I Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

There was fornication amoung the saints (saved people) at Corinth. Does Paul anywhere indicate that these fornicating Christian's are unsaved, at the risk of being unsaved, etc.? In fact, quite the opposite. He mentions that their sin will lead to destruction of their flesh (their earthly life), but they are still saved!!

I Corinthians 5:4 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The term "carnal Christian" originates from I Corithians. Though there is sin amoung them, he still addresses them as being saved.

I Corinthians 3:1-3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

When the distinctiveness of Paul's gospel of grace is recognized, the blood and crosswork of Christ takes on a whole new meaning.

Timothy, may I make a request that you not make your Scripture references so small? I think my eyes are getting old or something. hehe Used to have 20/20 vision, dagnabit! :laugh

In His love,

[Timothy]

Robin: Here is an examination of the verses you listed:

Romans 11:21-22 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Romans 11 (actually starting back in Romans 9) is not dealing with the doctrine of justification of faith, but the dispensational position of Israel in the dispensation of Grace, and the status of the prophetic kindom. The branches (being broken off and graffed in) are not referring to individual believers in context of the chapter.

I Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

The verse does not anywhere indicate that someone somehow becomes unsaved. The verse says some shall depart from the faith. So what is the difference? This passage reminds me of Paul's correction to the Galatians. The Galatians starting mixing law and grace, obeying a lie (which is by default, departing from the true faith). In his correction to the Galatians, no where does he indicate that they were somehow unsaved for being "bewitched" (seduced).

Galatians 3:1-3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end

The verse does not anywhere indicate that we somehow become unsaved. From verses like this:

I Corinthians 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We know that it is Christ that confirms us unto the end (same phrase), blameless, based on the blood of the cross. Either He confirms us blameless or he doesn't - it can't be both. So what then is Hebrews 3:14 talking about? What do the two priors verses say?

Hebrews 3:12-13 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Paul provides a word of caution to the believers about departing from the faith, making what he elsewhere calls a "shipwreck." Other believers are to encourage one another to prevent becoming carnal, falling into sin. Verse 14 is saying that we can be partakers of Christ while on earth, if we hold stedfast, without making a shipwreck of our faith. If we make a shipwreck of our faith, obviously we can't partake. We can partake of things of Christ and heaven now, but that is entirely up to us. For example, we are blessed with all spiritual blessings now, but is up to us to learn about them and apply them.


II Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

The verse does not anywhere indicate that we somehow become unsaved. Paul corrected both the Corinthians about having the sin of fornication, and the Galatians about mixing law and grace (false doctrine.) So what about falling?

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

In Galatians, Paul is correcting them because they mixed law in grace - falling away from the gospel of grace. They put themselves back under the yoke of the law, bondage, frustrating the grace of God.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


I Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear

The verse does not anywhere indicate that we somehow become unsaved. In fact, it reminds me of the judgement seat of Christ, where carnal Christians will suffer loss.

I Corinthians 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

[Timothy]

My turn for a question. I have a singular question for those that don't believe in eternal security:

How does someone, specifically, lose their salvation or become unsaved?

By specifically, I mean the measurement - what would trigger this event.

[Timothy]

Originally posted by My Abba's Child
Timothy, may I make a request that you not make your Scripture references so small? I think my eyes are getting old or something. hehe Used to have 20/20 vision, dagnabit!

It's actually the same default size as this default font (Arial), but just a different font (Courier). I'll fiddle around and see what I can change....sorry.

[My Abba's Child]

Originally posted by Timothy
It's actually the same default size as this default font (Arial), but just a different font (Courier). I'll fiddle around and see what I can change....sorry.

:laugh No problem... I was just having to do some serious squinting... and I loved your verse references! :thumb

In His love,

[Shyguy]

(ps: don't worry about derailing this thread- every OSAS thread I've ever taken part in goes in a gazillion different directions )

I realize you are an adamant defender of OSAS theology Timothy. But I fear that your love for this doctrine has clouded your ability to view the scriptures effectively.

Classic OSAS response :yawn

Well, I expected my OSAS buddies to be all over this

Do you think your posts could have any more sarcasm?

[StarVoyager]

Originally posted by Grow with God
GAL 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.



While I was reading this, the thought occurred to me that we must throw-off our yokes, cast our burdens on Jesus Christ, and then pick something else up.. the cross.

Jesus said "My yoke is easy, and my burden light".

It would be really hard to carry a yoke and a cross at the same time, but most, if not all of us do this. When we struggle with sin as Christians, it seems like the weight of the world is on our shoulders. It isn't the cross that is heavy, it is the yoke of sin. It seems heavier because we know now that it is sin, and we know that it does not have to be carried, yet often we let many things keep us from throwing off the yoke of bondage to any of a thousand sins.

I am a new creature in Christ. When I accepted Him, He placed his seal upon me. My taking up a yoke I have thrown off once or a thousand times before does not remove that seal. But, when I pick-up the yoke of sin again, I am doing more than just walking around with a load I don't need... I am hurting myself mentally, spiritually, and sometimes this manifests itself physically, but worse, when I take up a yoke of bondage again, I am hurting the relationship with my Abba Father in Heaven, through His son, Our Savior Jesus Christ.

I am trying to say that the yoke of sin is very, very heavy to a Christian, and I believe the guilt we feel when we know we have sinned makes the yoke much heavier. And as a Child of The Loving Abba Father, Who IS GOD, I believes it grieves Him to see us do this, infinitely more so than the pain we have when we see our own children suffer due to sin, or a mistake. I thnk it grieves Him because He knows we don't have to carry it, even if we have to cast it down a thousand times a day.

I know miracles happen, and many people have been delivered of life-long patterns (yokes) of sin and addiction in a moments time. I also know that many, many people (myself included) are always casting down, walking away from, then running back to the yokes.

This is not a lack of willingness on GOD to deliver us once and for all, I believe it is a life-long process of learning to lean on Him, to show that without Him, we are powerless to help ourselves and that our salvation IS soley based on nothing BUT The fathomless Grace and Mercy of GOD.

Just my thoughts, anyway.

Peace - Patrick ><>

[cindyw]

Originally posted by Timothy
Robin: Here is an examination of the verses you listed:

Romans 11:21-22 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Romans 11 (actually starting back in Romans 9) is not dealing with the doctrine of justification of faith, but the dispensational position of Israel in the dispensation of Grace, and the status of the prophetic kindom. The branches (being broken off and graffed in) are not referring to individual believers in context of the chapter.


:confused I'm sorry, but I just don't understand your explanation here. It appears to me that Paul was speaking to Gentiles. The BELIEVING Gentiles were grafted into the same entity that BELIEVING JEWS were part of (the ones who were not broken off due to unbelief). However, as the unbelieving Jews were broken off BECAUSE OF THEIR UNBELIEF, Paul told the Gentiles the same could happen to them if they were found in a state of UNBELIEF. Are ones that are broken off saved? It does not appear that they are for they are not grafted in with the "root"(Jesus Christ) ANYMORE. This passage seems to indicate that it is very possible to be broken off...............severed from the root(Christ).........

[ChopinFan]

cindyw,

I believer yours is the proper interpretation of that passage. I think a good thorough reading of John 15 will reinforce that. For those who do not "abide" in the vine, they will be cut off.

[John Tyson]

Grace and peace to you all.

I'm in the OSAS camp. For me, if God chose me, who's going to un-choose me?

However, I can also see where the OSNAS camp is coming from. There is the parable of the vine, the parable of the sower and the seeds, and other scriptures that show believers falling away, that demands faithfulness until the end.

So here's my view.

In every church there are several different types of members:
1. The mature believer who is filled with the Holy Spirit and is under grace.
2. The immature believer who is filled with the Holy Spirit and is under grace.
3. The believer who has a lot of head knowledge, the intellectual believer that has no heart knowledge and does not have the Holy Spirit and is not under grace.

The third person may have all the outward signs of being saved but is in fact still lost. It is to this third "believer" that I see the verses of being "cut off" or "falling away" applies. Often these are the ones who will not endure to the end. Will fall back into unbelief. Will fall away. They have heard the gospel, acknowledged its power, have tasted the heavenly gifts, and then trampled them underfoot.

It is here that I believe that the Church must disciple the new believers. So many new believers fall away. Many times the new believer makes a profession of faith, but it is an intellectual profession, not a heart commitment. However, with proper guidance by the Church and the grace of God, this new believer will make a faith commitment with his heart. Then he is truly saved, filled with the Holy Spirit, is a new creature, is once saved--always saved, and will persevere unto the end.

God bless,
John

[RedBall]

I think the problem stems from a misconception of when one inherits eternal life. A person who believes one can lose his salvation apparently believes that when a person gets saved, he inherits eternal life when he dies. This is not so; a person inherits eternal life the moment he is saved. If you are saved, you have eternal life NOW. It's not something you will get when you die. And eternal life wouldn't be eternal if it was here one day and gone the next.

Think about that.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

[Don]

Regarding the whole "grafting" thing:

It seems to me that this passage is talking about the Jews and Gentiles as a whole. There's a whole lot more going on in this passage. Paul is making a point that if God did not spare the unbelieving Jews, he would not spare the unbelieving Gentiles.

Notice this: unbelieving Jews were a part of the vine and broken off. Did they believe and then stop? Read the gospels: these Jews never believed. God removed those branches and grafted in the "wild olive shoot", the Gentiles. Were they grafted in because of their faith? No, Paul doesn't say that. He says they remain because of their faith. The unbelieving Gentile "branches" are removed just like the unbelieving Jew "branches".

Now we have an understanding that is internally consistent with the passage and the rest of scripture. If one starts claiming that people remain in Christ by their good works, then we have a problem here: Paul says the branches are removed not because of lack of works but because of unbelief! Also, if this passage refers to the individual who can lose their salvation, look at verse 23: if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. This would then contradict this passage:

Hebrews 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Don't be so quick to forget what has already been said in the scriptures about salvation:

John 5:24
I assure you, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

[Timothy]

Romans 11:17-24 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree- how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

It is perplexing that you would read conditional, works-contingent salvation into this passage when just a few verses earlier Paul clearly states that salvation by grace is clearly opposed to works. We

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

But the general problem is that you are reading the passage from a doctrinal position, while Paul is using an analogy to outline a dispensational position. By doctrinal position, I mean that you are reading it from a level of an individual (i.e. individual salvation). By dispensational position, I mean the general position and status of Israel, gentiles, etc.

* The root and fatness repsresents Abraham and his blessing.
* The olive tree represents Israel.
* The branches that were broken off represent unbelieving Israel.
* The remaining branches represent the believing remnant.
* The wild olive tree represents gentiles.
* The grafted in branches from the wild olive tree represent believing gentiles.

By background, remember what our position as gentiles (as a group) was before the dispensation of Grace was ushered in with Paul:

Ephesians 2:11-14 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us

By reading Romans 11 doctrinally, you are not only missing the dispensational message, you are missing the rapture message that is there!! It is clear from the preceding verses in Romans 11 that Paul is discussing the general dispensational status of groups, not as individuals (i.e. not individual salvation).

Romans 11:11-12 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

The grafted in branches will be broken off one day, and the broken off branches will be grafted in again. So what is the dispensational analogy? When we gentiles cease to "continue in His goodness" and this dispensation of grace ceases, we will be broken off and taken away (the rapture). That is the reason for all of Paul's other warnings, because no one knows when the rapture will come - time is short. The next verse:

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in

When we cease to continue in His goodness, the fullness of the Gentiles will come and the rapture occurs. What happens after the rapature? The next two verses say:

Romans 11:26-27 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

After the rapture, the prophetic kingdom with Israel resumes. So with the preceding and the following verses of the passage, it is clear that Paul is talk about the dispensational status of groups, not individual salvation.

[Timothy]

Originally posted by Timothy My turn for a question. I have a singular question for those that don't believe in eternal security:

How does someone, specifically, lose their salvation or become unsaved?

By specifically, I mean the measurement - what would trigger this event.

With all sincerity, if you believe that you can be unsaved, surely there must be a simple answer to this question. What sin or sins would triggers this event? What must one do or not do to become unsaved?

[ChopinFan]

With all sincerity, if you believe that you can be unsaved, surely there must be a simple answer to this question. What sin or sins would triggers this event? What must one do or not do to become unsaved?

I don't have all the answers, but here are just a few passages that would answer your sincere questions.

I Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God

Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

I see no exception clauses inserted into these passages. I don't see where it says "unless you're a Christian, then you're exempt from these warnings." Notice the passage in Revelation includes a list containing sins in addition to unbelief. OSAS says that only unbelief will send you to hell. Scripture says otherwise.

edited to add this:
Notice also these curious phrases "let no man deceive you" in the above passages. Why do you think they are inserted there? The unbeliever and the ungodly are already deceived/condemned. Each of these epistles are addressed to the faithful (just look at the first chapter of each book to see who they were written to). Why go to the trouble to warn those who are already saved about deception?

[Don]

So, I guess our only hope is to die in between sins, that is, after we repent of the last but before we commit the next.

[ChopinFan]

Originally posted by Don
So, I guess our only hope is to die in between sins, that is, after we repent of the last but before we commit the next.

I believe that Christ gives us "space to repent" (like the church at Thyatira). What you just described above seems like an extremem osnas stance, which I personally do not endorse. I don't believe a person easily forfeits salvation. I believe God gives that person every opportunity to make things right before judgement comes. But the scriptures warn against the hardening of the heart. For those individuals who refuse to repent, and continue in that lifestyle, they place themselves in peril.

[Don]

Originally posted by ChopinFan
I believe that Christ gives us "space to repent" (like the church at Thyatira). What you just described above seems like an extremem osnas stance, which I personally do not endorse. I don't believe a person easily forfeits salvation. I believe God gives that person every opportunity to make things right before judgement comes. But the scriptures warn against the hardening of the heart. For those individuals who refuse to repent, and continue in that lifestyle, they place themselves in peril.
You believe, but where does God say? I don't remember Him giving the two believers Ananias and Sapphira much time to repent.

[Don]

Originally posted by ChopinFan
OSAS says that only unbelief will send you to hell. Scripture says otherwise.
This is the classic misrepresentation of the OSAS camp: that of "easy-believism".

[ChopinFan]

Originally posted by Don
You believe, but where does God say? I don't remember Him giving the two believers Ananias and Sapphira much time to repent.

Ok, point taken brother Don,

Let me go with your theme.

Are they in heaven? If so, why does it say this.........

Acts 5:11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD. If they went straight to glory-no fear then right? Paul said to live is Christ, and to die is gain. Should the deaths of these two produce fear if they were eternally secure?

[ChopinFan]

Originally posted by Don
This is the classic misrepresentation of the OSAS camp: that of "easy-believism".

Perhaps......prove me wrong and I'm willing to listen. "Timothy" (the poster here at RR-not to be confused with the Timothy of the bible) seems to support a position slightly left of traditional OSAS. Where do you stand on it Don?

[Don]

Originally posted by ChopinFan
Ok, point taken brother Don,

Let me go with your theme.

Are they in heaven?
I believe they were. I believe that if we could lose our salvation by sinning, then other portions of scripture must be false, specifically those pertaining to believers having attaing eternal life, having been sealed by the Holy Spirit, and not being able to be snatched out of Christ's hands.


Originally posted by ChopinFan
If so, why does it say this.........
Acts 5:11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
Why is this so surprising? God immediately disciplined them with death. Peter writes in one of his letters that God sometimes punishes sin in believers with physical death.


Originally posted by ChopinFan
To be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD. If they went straight to glory-no fear then right? Paul said to live is Christ, and to die is gain. Should the deaths of these two produce fear if they were eternally secure?
I don't think those letters were even written at the time of this event, so I don't think it's fair to apply it here as if these people had already read them. Back to the issue of their deaths, why would God striking someone dead for disobedience not strike fear into fellow believers. This showed that God means business.

[Don]

Originally posted by ChopinFan
Perhaps......prove me wrong and I'm willing to listen. "Timothy" (the poster here at RR-not to be confused with the Timothy of the bible) seems to support a position slightly left of traditional OSAS. Where do you stand on it Don?
I will point you to the many other threads on this issue for proof that the typical belief is that one is not saved by mental assent alone.

[Timothy]

Originally posted by ChopinFan I don't have all the answers, but here are just a few passages that would answer your sincere questions...

Like the others passages, every passage is out of context. But let's go with your reading for a moment. Seriously, listen to what you are saying:

I Corinthians 6:9
The sin of coveting.

Galatians 5:19
The sin of envy.

Ephesians 5:5
The sin of coveting.

Revelation 21:8
The sin of lying.

So, any time a believer commits one of these sins, they become unsaved and are at risk of going to the lake of fire. That is what you are saying.

[ChopinFan]

Originally posted by Don
I believe they were. I believe that if we could lose our salvation by sinning, then other portions of scripture must be false, specifically those pertaining to believers having attaing eternal life, having been sealed by the Holy Spirit, and not being able to be snatched out of Christ's hands.

I will point to your response to me by saying "you believe they were". But what about the scriptures I posted that do show what will exclude someone from the kingdom of God? I don't see anyone "snatching Ananias and Sapphira" from the hand of God. I see them deliberatley sinning against the Holy Ghost of their own volition....there is a difference.

[quote]Why is this so surprising? God immediately disciplined them with death. Peter writes in one of his letters that God sometimes punishes sin in believers with physical death.

I agree, sometimes He does use physical death as chastisement. But still, that shouldn't cause "great fear" to come upon all if they were still saved and on their way to glory.

I don't think those letters were even written at the time of this event, so I don't think it's fair to apply it here as if these people had already read them.

Perhaps not, but they did have the Psalms which declare-precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of His saints. I think they had at least a minimal understanding of the judgement of God. Give them a little credit.

Back to the issue of their deaths, why would God striking someone dead for disobedience not strike fear into fellow believers. This showed that God means business.

Yes, but for many of them, they were under tremendous persecution anyway. The threat of martyrdom was always a reality.

[ChopinFan]

Originally posted by Timothy
Like the others passages, every passage is out of context. But let's go with your reading for a moment. Seriously, listen to what you are saying:

I Corinthians 6:9
The sin of coveting.

Galatians 5:19
The sin of envy.

Ephesians 5:5
The sin of coveting.

Revelation 21:8
The sin of lying.

So, any time a believer commits one of these sins, they become unsaved and are at risk of going to the lake of fire. That is what you are saying.

You're still not answering the questions, other than hitting me with the "out of context" mantra. :):

[Don]

Originally posted by ChopinFan
I agree, sometimes He does use physical death as chastisement. But still, that shouldn't cause "great fear" to come upon all if they were still saved and on their way to glory.
I think you're just applying your own personal feelings into the passage here. I don't think such an action would be so casually received, as you make it sound like it should have, in any church.


Originally posted by ChopinFan
Perhaps not, but they did have the Psalms which declare-precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of His saints. I think they had at least a minimal understanding of the judgement of God. Give them a little credit.
What exactly are you accusing me of? I said they didn't have the books we have now and that I don't think they would take divine discipline so lightly as you think they would have. I'm not calling them stupid.


Originally posted by ChopinFan
Yes, but for many of them, they were under tremendous persecution anyway. The threat of martyrdom was always a reality.

I don't think things were exactly as you describe them to be:

Acts 2:42-27
They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

[Timothy]

Originally posted by ChopinFan
You're still not answering the questions, other than hitting me with the "out of context" mantra. :):

I am more than willing to help you understand the context of each. So, you are not denying of my summary? That every time a believer envies, covets, or lies, in act or thought (which is sin), you become unsaved and are at risk of going to the lake of fire.

[Don]

Originally posted by ChopinFan
You're still not answering the questions, other than hitting me with the "out of context" mantra. :):
You were the one answering his question. You can't just abandon your answers and demand some in return. If you think you are not taking scripture out of context, then explain to Timothy how they are in context. I, too, think you are taking those passages out of context. Explain how the writers are speaking of believers in those passages.

[ChopinFan]

Each of the epistles (including the Revelation) are addressed to believers. Let me list them since you don't believe me.

I Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours

Galatians 1:2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus

Rev 1:1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

I hope you don't think I'm being sarcastic to you guys. I appreciate your feedback. I think we can learn from each other.

[ChopinFan]

Oh, let me add this.

Thanks to you also John Tyson for your contributions to the thread.

I think someone earlier accused me of being ugly or sarcastic or something, but I hope that isn't the case here. I do enjoy friendly debate, and I sense that from all here.

[BarbT]

I certainly hope new believers are not confused or disallusioned by the LIE that we can lose our salvation.

Once again, on a Christian board, this teaching rears it's ugly, misguided head. The "airline ticket analogy" originally posted is ludicrous. :tsk

When scripture says believers must "endure to the end" it is meant as encouragement for those caught in the 7 year tribulation. They will have to resist taking the mark of the beast under threat of death, so extrordinary strength will be needed all the way through until the Lord touches down on Mt of Olives.

That is a far cry from having the blood of the Lamb *sandblasted* off your soul because you are not perfect.

If you are saved, the precious blood will never wash away. You have already endured 'till the rapture or death takes you home. :thumb

Newbies, don't believe it when someone tries to frighten you with legalism of any kind. Jesus has written your name on His heart and He does not play games with that! I pray you will not be decieved.

{OSnAS people, don't get your knickers in a twist over my bluntness. I'm merely burdened for new siblings in Christ you may be stripping of fellowship with Him by your persistant, unfounded warnings about being *good enough*. }

[ChopinFan]

Originally posted by BarbT
I pray you will not be decieved.

Finally, something we can agree on.

:laugh

I did think your jab about the knickers was amusing however. :pound

[Don]

Originally posted by ChopinFan
Each of the epistles (including the Revelation) are addressed to believers.
This doesn't really solve anything. The fact remains that some content in the epistles is directly addressing unbelievers in the various churches.

[Don]

I agree with you, BarbT. I have been severely harmed by this teaching in the past. It renders the believer who struggles with sin as a completely useless part of the Body of Christ.

[blitzkreig]

Originally posted by BarbT
I certainly hope new believers are not confused or disillusioned by the LIE that we can lose our salvation. I have pretty well abandoned the notion of convincing people that they can't lose Christ if they have Him to begin with... It seems like some really NEED to be able to contribute in some meaningful way to their own Salvation. Whatever.

I don't suppose it matters much as they are Justified none-the-less. They are certainly straining the joy they could have and confidence...

The Bible sure makes it clear enough to my mind and the majority of Theologians through out history as well. But in todays TV Christianity era it doesn't seem "stylish".

Once you get your head around the fact that Salvation AND Faith are truly gifts from God nothing else makes any sense at all. All the pieces fit so perfectly. All the verses supporting God's Sovereignty fit the puzzle. All the protests regarding whether a person can outright "reject faith", ... and the silly alarmists also say that people will rest too easy on their faith, and not contribute... or even sin willingly etc. are not supported by any observation of the people I see at Church.

But whatever...

[Timothy]

Continuing with my "mantra"....

I Corinthians 6:9-10

Paul is talking about the unsaved. Read the next verse.

I Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Mind you, Paul addressed the believers at Corith and fornicators and carnal, babes in Christ - but they are still washed, sanctified and justified.

Galatians 5:19-21

Back up a couple of verses:

Galatians 5:16-18 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Paul is talking about the believer's struggle between the spirit and the flesh. In verses 19-21 he lists the "works of the flesh" and verses 22-23 he lists the "fruit of the spirit." The reference in verse 21 is simply an obvious add on that sinners go to hell. When he discusses the struggle of the flesh and the spirit, Paul does not indicate that it is a struggle of keeping your salvation and losing your salvation. It's about the "things that ye would." Note what he says in verse 21, if you are led of the Spirit, you are NOT under the law. So therefore, when you put yourself back under the law (system of conditional performance), you are in the flesh (which according to your definition would make you unsaved).

Ephesians 5:5-6

Paul is talking about the unsaved. Back up:

Ephesians 4:32-5:4 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you....But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

Paul instructs the believers to forgive one another, becuase God has already (past tense - hath) forgiven them. It's not conditional or reactive, it is unconditional or proactive. He goes on to caution them against falling into sin because it is not "becoming" of saints. The verses in 5 and 6 are speaking of the unsaved. Why? Next verse.

Ephesians 5:7-8 Be not ye therefore partakers with them. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light

Paul instructs them that they should walk as who they are, children of light, not as "them," the children of darkness (unsaved).

Revelation 21:8

I'm simply speechless on this one. You say that you see "no exception clauses" and you "don't see where it says unless you're a Christian, then you're exempt from these warnings." So if no Christian is exempt, unfortunately, I have some bad news for you then. It says "all liars" will have a part in the lake of fire. Unless of course, you wish to deny that you are a liar.

[Timothy]

Salvation by grace and grace alone is referred to sometimes as "easy believism", or "cheap grace" by scoffers. The scoffers say that grace through faith alone is a "license to sin." What does Paul say (repeatedly) about grace and works in regards to salvation?

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Works and grace are diametrically opposed in regard to salvation with the gospel of grace. The minute you introduce works as a condition of salvation, it is a PERVERSION of the gospel of grace. There are three common ways that grace is perverted.

PERVERSION #1 - YOU MUST WORK TO GET SAVED

PERVERSION #2 - YOU MUST WORK TO STAY SAVED

PERVERSION #3 - YOU MUST WORK TO PROVE YOU ARE SAVED

Salvation is by grace alone and excludes any work on the part of man. It is not dependent on anything that we can or possibly could do. It is wholly the work of God, what he has done for us. Grace is a non-meritorious system of trust. Works can't be added to grace and have it remain grace. That is why the cross is so offensive. If our salvation was based on works, there was some other way to get saved, God would be the most wicked god for letting his son die needlessly on the cross. If salvation is dependent on performance, salvation is no longer by grace. We are God's workmanship. If it contingent on our works, it is no longer his work. Works that we do are supposed out of love and thankfullness for him, not a legalistic or conditional payback.

Until you fully realize what grace truly is, you will constantly live under fear (have I done everything? Did I miss something? Am I good enough?) and under the yoke of bondage.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

The minute you mix works and grace for salvation, you are perverting the gospel of grace.

[Don]

Originally posted by Timothy
Salvation by grace and grace alone is referred to sometimes as "easy believism", or "cheap grace" by scoffers. The scoffers say that grace through faith alone is a "license to sin."
I think I should clarify my "easy believism" remark. I think that someone who truly puts their faith in Christ to save them will exhibit certain signs of his salvation. When I talk about "easy believism", I am speaking of people who make the mental assent, but don't really believe it with their hearts (that is, they are not changed by it). I do not think it's possible to be saved and not exhibit any of the signs of salvation. I guess this is a modification of your "Perversion #3"; it's not that I think you have to work to prove that your saved but, rather, that you can't help but exhibit works if you are saved.

[blitzkreig]

Originally posted by Don
it's not that I think you have to work to prove that your saved but, rather, that you can't help but exhibit works if you are saved. Now that is true Don. I totally agree. Now ... what is a "work"?

[Don]

Originally posted by blitzkreig
Now that is true Don. I totally agree. Now ... what is a "work"?
How can you not know what work is? :confused Or are you just being silly? They are things that you do (in this context, "acts of righteousness").

[Timothy]

Like some phrases, they can be used in several ways. I understand and agree with your summary. But I've most often heard "easy believism" used as a knock down of grace through faith, as there is no contigency, etc.

Under grace, our motivation is pure thankfullness. I always use this:

GRACE ATTITUDE = GRATITUDE

Ephesians 5:15-20 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ

Our motivation is not obligation, not fear, etc. It is pure gratitude (response to grace). Under grace, good works are the end result of gratitude.

[Don]

Originally posted by Timothy
Like some phrases, they can be used in several ways. I understand and agree with your summary. But I've most often heard "easy believism" used as a knock down of grace through faith, as there is no contigency, etc.
I guess that's the problem with trying to use one or two words to sum up entire philosophies. The more complex the idea that a word is supposed to encapsulate, the more chance there is of confusion.

Originally posted by Timothy
Under grace, our motivation is pure thankfullness.
Amen!

[blitzkreig]

Originally posted by Don
How can you not know what work is? :confused Or are you just being silly? They are things that you do (in this context, "acts of righteousness"). I have heard all sorts of ideas some way out there on just what constitues good "works". You say "acts of righteousness"... but mankind is not righteousness is he...

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

[Lonewolf7]

Originally posted by blitzkreig
I have pretty well abandoned the notion of convincing people that they can't lose Christ if they have Him to begin with... It seems like some really NEED to be able to contribute in some meaningful way to their own Salvation. Whatever.

I don't suppose it matters much as they are Justified none-the-less. They are certainly straining the joy they could have and confidence...



I totally agree with you about osnos........ they insist on adding effort of some kind in addition to what Jesus Christ did for us.


Galatians 3
2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Peter 1
9for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls. (He is speaking about the Holy Spirit Titus 3:5)

Galatians 3
3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

Effort, effort, effort......still leads to 'staying spiritually DEAD'

When you give up and let God save you.....He 'quickens' you via His spirit.....life eternal

[Lonewolf7]

Originally posted by RedBall
I think the problem stems from a misconception of when one inherits eternal life. A person who believes one can lose his salvation apparently believes that when a person gets saved, he inherits eternal life when he dies. This is not so; a person inherits eternal life the moment he is saved. If you are saved, you have eternal life NOW. It's not something you will get when you die. And eternal life wouldn't be eternal if it was here one day and gone the next.

Think about that.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. http://www.groundstrike.com/limoges/fungames/bingo.jpg

[blitzkreig]

I have come to the conclusion that all the "good works" in the end are also a "gift" from God. Faith, Hope and Charity included.

1st Grace comes from God.

Faith as a Fruit of Sanctification comes from God. With out God's Grace we would not have Faith.

Hope comes from God. Hope is the expectation of things promised by God and then believed through Faith. Yes believing comes from God.

All Spiritual Gifts including the ability to understand (and believe) and not seem as foolishness in the very first place comes from God.

Good Works (the ability to remain in God's Will) comes from God... Because ALL Sanctification comes from God.

We get the Word from God.

This is a complete package. A full-meal-deal. What is it that we DON'T get from God? You don't get one without the other. That is why the notion of OSnAS is "incomplete". It doesn't fit anywhere.

[My Abba's Child]

The Bible tells us that there is only one sin that cannot be brought to repentance... that being, blaspheming the Holy Spirit. All other sins can be forgiven.

In His love,

[Don]

Originally posted by blitzkreig
I have heard all sorts of ideas some way out there on just what constitues good "works". You say "acts of righteousness"... but mankind is not righteousness is he...
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think you're taking that scripture out of context. If it means what you think it means, then what do you have to say about this:

Matthew 6:1
"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

I believe the passage you quoted speaks of men's righteousness not being enough for God; that something more is needed (i.e. Christ).

[blitzkreig]

er... Don... what version you reading? I have searched 16 Bibles and the only one I can find "righteousness" in Mat 6:1 is the ASV... Here is the KJV...

Mat 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

And what John Gill says:

Mat 6:1 - Take heed that ye do not your alms before men,.... Some copies read, "take heed that ye do not your righteousness", &c. which is a very good reading: but then, by "righteousness", is not meant righteousness, as comprehending all other righteous acts, as particularly alms, prayer, and fasting, hereafter mentioned; but alms only; nothing being more common with the Jews than to call alms öã÷ä,

I have always understood that to mean alms...

[blitzkreig]

Don... I am following this prescription from the NASB:

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

[ylf1999]

hey guys, I don't mean this as an attack on anyone that is OSNAS but as you know I am doing a bible study on the OSAS vs. OSNAS doctrines. last nite I began my bible study by writting a short paper on why i"m doing the bible study. I thought I would post it and let some of you see why I"m starting to get suspecious on the OSNAS doctrine.

____________________________________________________

Why I am doing the OSAS bible study…

I believe that the bible might very well indeed teach that once a Christian has been born again that his salvation is eternal. My first argument for it is that while there are bible verses in the bible that very well look like a born again Christian can lose their salvation; as far as I can see the bible does not tell us how far we can sin before we become spiritually lost again and non adopted in God’s family.

If a Christian could very well lose their salvation wouldn’t it be a really important issue for god to discuss in his word what one of his children would have to do to lose their salvation and spend eternality in the lake of fire?

My second argument is that by doing “works” to maintain my salvation aren’t I comparing my holiness to the holiness of God. From my point of view that sounds pretty insulting to God. Isaiah 64:4 say that my righteousness is compared to a filthy rag. God is the only one that is able to be without sin.

My third reason is that Jesus died a horrible death on the cross. That kind of death should have paid for my salvation once and for all. What was the whole point of Jesus going through that kind of physical and emotional pain if I would have to keep asking God for salvation time and time again due to the fact that I lost it because I sinned too much.

My fourth argument is that Jesus said that he came for the sinner and not for the righteous. “Go and learn what this means. I desire mercy and not sacrifice. For I have not come not to call the righteous but the sinner to repentance”.

My fifth reason is that Peter said in chapter 5 of his letter that God is love and there is no fear in love. How can I not fear god if I am constantly in fear of losing my salvation and burning in the lake of fire for eternality.

My sixth reason is more personal then it would be theological. I am sick and tired of believing that I am going to heaven one minute and then thinking that I am going to burn in the lake of fire for eternality the next minute. It is a major emotional roller coaster that I don’t need in my life and I don’t believe that a God of love would want me to go through it either.

[ylf1999]

oh by the way this goes without saying but I want everyone to feel free to comment on my paper. I just ask that you be respectful of my beliefs just like I respect your beliefs.

YBIC

[blitzkreig]

Chris you really have to read this sermon by Jonathan Edwards (a very great 17th century American Theologin)... called "Safety, Fulness, and Sweet Refreshment in Christ"

Isaiah 32:2
And a man shall be as an hiding-place from the wind, and a covert from the tempest; as rivers of water in a dry place, as the shadow of a great rock in a weary land.

http://www.jonathanedwards.com/sermons/Pastoral/safety.htm

The reason you need to read him is he too uses argumentation and reason to support beliefs. He is a grand master. I get so much out of his writings ...

[jelli<><]

uh, Blitzkreig, about post #78?

Once you get your head around the fact that Salvation AND Faith are truly gifts from God nothing else makes any sense at all.


Don't you mean: UNTIL you get your head around the fact that Salvation AND Faith are truly gifts from God nothing else makes any sense at all. ?:
:pound

[Robin]

Timothy- thanks the response to the verses I posted. :):
I still don't see them the same way you do, but I appreciate the
respectful way you addressed them all.

I read thru what you and Don posted about Romans 11. I think I understand what you're both saying, but it still doesn't fit what I read. Okay, Romans is written to "all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints. (c 1, vs 7) , whose "faith is spoken of throughout the whole world" (vs 8). From my view, they (Jews) are the natural branches because before Christ came, they did believe in and serve the one true God, and believed in the Messiah to come. However, when Christ came, they rejected Him and then were broken off. We then were grafted in because of our faith in Christ Jesus. I say that based on Romans 11:20, which reads: "Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith." Then Paul says "For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you (not them-the unbelieving Gentiles) either."

Timothy, you asked how I thought someone become "unsaved".
Well, in the Word I find that it is thru faith that I am saved, if I continue in it. That's it. It's like Hebrews 3:12-19 talks about...the warning is to the brethren, telling them to be careful not to let their hearts become hardened thru unbelief, causing them to depart from the living God. Vs 18-19 says the ones who did not enter His rest, did not enter because they did not obey and that because of unbelief.

Again, Peter speaks to this in 2 Peter 2:20-22..."For if, AFTER THEY HAVE ESCAPED the pollutions of the world throught the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them AND OVERCOME the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: 'A dog returns to his own vomit,' and 'a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.'"

I've known people who used to walk with Christ, and no longer do. Can't see from scripture that I will see them in heaven.

Oh, and on the righteous acts topic...all our righteous acts before Christ are filthy rags, but after Christ and thru Christ they are the
"fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints." (Rev 19:8)

[blitzkreig]

jelli<>< it has been a long week... I needed that smile. Of course your right. Thanks. I flew to Toronto from Calgay on Wednesday and back on Thursday.. always a killer. :doh

[blitzkreig]

Originally posted by Robin
I've known people who used to walk with Christ, and no longer do. Can't see from scripture that I will see them in heaven. and maybe they will... we can't see to the end of their lives... maybe even on their death beds. On the other hand we can't tell if they were believers in the first place .. or just -winging-it.

Oh, and on the righteous acts topic...all our righteous acts before Christ are filthy rags, but after Christ and thru Christ they are the "fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints." Yes... through God's Grace they are. No value in and of themselves before Christ. It is Jesus rightousness we are using... without the cloak of righteousness of Christ we are absolutely nothing. Or were the authors of these scriptures talking about times prior to their Salvation?...

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Phi 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

[Lonewolf7]

ROBIN,

I used to struggle with the issue of OSAS until I learned what eternal life IS.....and when I get it.

God showed me via His word that Eternal life IS His Holy Spirit and I get His eternal life ....right here, right now.

Once I had those two nailed down.....the rest was easy.

He said that once we obtain eternal life ie His Holy Spirit.....His spirit will never, ever leave our bodies.

The lost are spiritually dead.....His spirit, (Holy Spirit, spirit of God, spirit of Christ, Christ in you), is the reason we are NOT spiritually dead.

Our spirit is eternally alive.....BECAUSE He is in us.

That is Eternal Life, that IS the salvation of our souls.

I believe those facts totally elude those who trumpet the call of OSNAS. That is why they don't understand.

God bless you sister

[Don]

Originally posted by Robin
Again, Peter speaks to this in 2 Peter 2:20-22..."For if, AFTER THEY HAVE ESCAPED the pollutions of the world throught the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them AND OVERCOME the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: 'A dog returns to his own vomit,' and 'a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.'"
Are the people deceived by false prophets (ie. the deceived people being those "whose latter end is worse than the first") saved to begin with? If so, is this "end" or "state" talking about damnation, or an unfruitful life lived in error?

We can throw scripture back and forth until the cows come home:

Romans 11:28-29
"As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable."

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 3:1-5
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

Ephesians 4:30
...do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Hebrews 10:13-14
Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.


I don't know how to reconcile some passages with the idea that I cannot lose my salvation, but I see too many passages (some I quoted above) that directly say or imply that I cannot lose my salvation. The ones that seem to support OSNAS are not always so solid and can be too easily argued against, IMHO. Then there is always this ugly spectre raised by OSNAS: Am I good enough not to lose my salvation? Am I working hard enough to earn the right to keep what was, at first, given to me for free? Are my efforts enough to keep me saved?


"God's gifts and his call are irrevocable"

[Timothy]

Originally posted by Robin Okay, Romans is written to "all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints. (c 1, vs 7) , whose "faith is spoken of throughout the whole world" (vs 8).

Yes, that is who the book of Romans is written to. You reading of the analogy in Romans 11 directly contradicts the doctrines Paul clearly outlines earlier in Romans. Take note of the contextual content of chapters 9-11. These three chapters are dedicated to explaining the status of the nation of Israel, the promises to them and the prophetic kingdom in light of the dispensation of grace revealed to Paul.

Romans 9:1 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Here's a good outline of Romans:

DOCTRINAL: Crosswork of Christ - How the gospel of grace saves the sinnner
Chapters 1-8
1:18-3:20 Condemnation
3:21-5:11 Justification
5:12 - 8:39 Sanctification & Glorification

NATIONAL: Status of Israel - How the gospel of grace relates to Jews
Chapters 9-11
9 Does not annul purpose with Israel
10 Fulfills promise to Israel
11 Confirms prospect before israel

PRACTICAL: Application of principle of grace in believers life
Chapters 12-16
12 Social aspects
13 Civil asptecs
14-15 Mutal asptects

You also mentioned Hebrews 3. Check back earlier in the thread, as there was correspondence on that passage already.

Originally posted by Robin Timothy, you asked how I thought someone become "unsaved".Well, in the Word I find that it is thru faith that I am saved, if I continue in it. That's it.

That's exactly the point. You really, truly don't believe in salvation by grace, though you may think you may do. There's no way around it - you have added a condition of performance to grace, so it can no longer be grace.

Though you say it is about "continuing in the faith," what you are really saying is that your future sins could take it away. You are putting yourself, willingly, back under the law, just like the Galatians did. If salvation by grace is dependent your performance, and if you can become unsaved for not "continuing," here are some things to consider:

* Don't we sin every single day?
* Don't we follow the "old man" several times a day?
* When we follow the "old man," doesn't that constitute "not following faith?"
* How many minutes of following the "old man" does it take before you are unsaved?

So you see, according to what you believe, on a daily basis, each and every day we unsaved and saved again, over and over and over. How much sin does it take to be unsaved? How many minutes do you have to not follow the "new man," continuing in faith, before you are unsaved? A minute? A hour? A day? The minute you follow the old man, you have stopped continuing in faith, and therefore unsaved according to your belief.

As hard as it is to understand, those Christian's that turn their back on God are still saved. What does Paul say about these carnal Christians who have turned their back? Here are some verses that clearly demonstrate that a life of sin can't make you unsaved.

I Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

I Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Paul instructs the Corinthians to put these carnal Christians out, and let them destroy their flesh (old man). But note what Paul clearly says about their spirit (new man). They are saved! It is important to remember, that though these carnal Christians have chosen a life of sin, we ourselves still sin daily too! The carnal Christian will suffer the loss of rewards at the judgement seat of Christ, but still be saved.

[Robin]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Don
Are the people deceived by false prophets (ie. the deceived people being those "whose latter end is worse than the first") saved to begin with? If so, is this "end" or "state" talking about damnation, or an unfruitful life lived in error?

Hi Don. I think this passage clearly is about those who once believed because it says they escaped the pollutions of the world because they new Jesus Christ as both Lord and Savior.
Kind of reminds me of the passage in Ezekiel 18:21-32, especailly vs 24-26.

We can throw scripture back and forth until the cows come home:
Yes, I know what you mean. There are so many scriptures to prayerfully consider on this issue.

Romans 11:28-29
"As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for [b]God's gifts and his call are irrevocable."

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 3:1-5
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

Ephesians 4:30
...do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Hebrews 10:13-14
Since that time he waits for his enemies to be