oh boy....

[InHisTime]

I need some advice...

My best friend and I would always go to church together while our husband's sat at home. We'd pile the kids up and head to church and were a great support to each other. That all changed when Sue's (name changed) husband became friends with their next door neighbor. Bill (sue's hubby) began attending church with the neighbor and announced in a few weeks that he had gave his life to Christ and was being baptized. We were all so excited for him, and Sue began attending church with her husband. Sue was then shortly baptized in the church.

The church they attended met in the afternoons because they are just a small gathering of about 30 members at the most and couldn't afford to buy or rent a church. When I asked about the history of the church I was told that they were a group that had broken off from another church. A denomination was never given except they were strictly a Bible church. I was also told that the church I attended was a "pep rally" church.

I went to the church once when Sue was baptized and felt totally isolated. You would think with a group of 30 I would of met a lot of people. I had maybe three people say hi. One of those was when handing me a flyer! So two were for real!LOL Still, I was just so happy that Bill was becoming the spiritual leader in their household, something I have always wanted from my DH.

Sue called me upset today. She said she needed to tell me some things she had been keeping from me. The pastor of the church they are attending and the neigbor that got Bill to church in the first place were becoming heavily involved in their personal lives to the point that they were coming to the house and telling Bill and her how they were to handle their household affairs. She had noticed her husband was pulling away from her and becoming very withdrawn. He finally confided in her that he was feeling so much turmoil because he didn't agree with all the men were telling him, but couldn't tell them that.

It all came to a head when Bill and Sue decided not to attend church this last Sunday and asked to go to church with me. Since they missed church this Sunday they have been getting phone calls from the pastor and church members wanting to know why they didn't go to church. The Pastor then showed up at my Sue's work TWICE. When he asked where she was at Sunday, she told him about going to church with me and he said "That is the problem. If you lie with sleeping dogs you're going to get fleas." He then told her that as her pastor, she needs to look to him as a friend and as a messenger or ambassador of God telling her what God wants her to know. The pastor has also been calling her husband's cell phone repeatedly requesting a conference with him.

I have a thousand bells and whistles going off. I'm afraid my dear friend and her family are involved in a very controlling almost cult like church. It seems to me that anyone outside of their church is a "flea". The pastor can call me a "flea" all he wants because I know I am a child of God. That doesn't hurt me. The part that scares me the most is that her husband is now doubting and thinking twice about his relationship with God because of the church. She called me and asked for advice. She doesn't know how to help her husband and she doesn't know any Christian men outside of their church. I need suggestions, ideas, anything that can help. I also would love everyone to pray for this family.

Dawn

[Hootmon]

A church that gets that involved with your personal life sounds a bit 'cultish', TBH...

[Grow with God]

Originally posted by Hootmon
A church that gets that involved with your personal life sounds a bit 'cultish', TBH...

It does... sounds downright dangerous and like they are being stalked.

[Flyin Squirrel]

Try to get them reading this board!

[MercifullySaved]

What's the name of the church/organization? I'm sure someone here could pull up some useful info on them one way or another...

[cindyw]

Originally posted by Hootmon
A church that gets that involved with your personal life sounds a bit 'cultish', TBH...



Maybe and maybe not. We should be accountable to each other. Those in leadership should be teachers and examples for us to follow. You won't know if they are good examples or bad examples unless you KNOW them. This knowing takes relationship---on both sides. I definitely don't believe in taking over one's life or dictating how fast someone is to grow spiritually, but in a GODLY church, the shepherd should indeed know the lives of those who come to the place he shepherds and care for their spiritual well-being--------that is his calling from God.

However, hounding someone, making disparaging comments about your friend's church/ etc. That is going over the line in MHO. This pastor needs to be told what the acceptable boundaries are. Concerning the husband: him questioning his faith would be normal when you are not happy with those who seemingly brought you to the faith. However, we must all remember that it is GOD who brought us to faith----not the vessel who was used by God. I was drawn to Christ by reading "cult" material------The Plain Truth magazine (Worldwide Church of God). As long as you stick with Jesus, how you came to Him doesn't matter and your allegiance only belongs to Jesus, no man. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

[InHisTime]

They say that they are reformed Presbyterian, but it sounds like to me that they are there own little group. She told me the Pastor told her they shouldn't abandon their church since the church didn't abandon them????? It all just seems to weird to me.

Dawn

[GloryBound]

Sounds like they are trying to form their own little cult. Your friends need to make it clear they don't want anymore contact or a restraining order will be obtained. Then they should follow through.

[cindyw]

Originally posted by InHisTime
They say that they are reformed Presbyterian, but it sounds like to me that they are there own little group. She told me the Pastor told her they shouldn't abandon their church since the church didn't abandon them????? It all just seems to weird to me.

Dawn


I've read about reformed Presbyterian churches. I wish we had one near us that I could check out. I don't agree with all they stand for, but they don't sound cultish to me, they sound very much like a denomination that desires to go back to how the early church functioned---- relationally and accountability wise. If your friends have doubts about this denomination, I believe they have a website, that's how I know about them. I think I've been to about every denomination's website out there in search of doctrinal stances.

Personally, I would tell your friends to hang in there, express their concerns to this pastor----don't run because they feel uncomfortable. There needs to be TRANSPARENCY AND clarification-----on both sides. If after this is done and they don't feel comfortable with this particular church, there are some out there who are also very conservative, but maybe not so intrusive. If they don't want ANY accountability, there are lots of churches out there were you can remain anonymous or not accountable to anyone----seeker sensitive/friendly churches come to mind. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

[Amity]

Talk to Sue about maybe the two of you and Bill meeting with the Pastor at your church to discuss what is wrong with that other church....you need some reinforcement.

[MarkD]

Cindy,

I agree that there needs to be transparency and accountability to each other in whatever church setting we are in.

However, when we see phrases like this:

"When he asked where she was at Sunday, she told him about going to church with me and he said "That is the problem. If you lie with sleeping dogs you're going to get fleas." He then told her that as her pastor, she needs to look to him as a friend and as a messenger or ambassador of God telling her what God wants her to know. "

This is when the great big red flags go up.

1. It is clear that this pastor does not want them in contact with other churches. This is a BAD THING.

2. He is the messenger or ambassador of God? Telling her what God wants her to know? I think this statement speaks (volumes) for itself.

I would walk away.

[Doobie56]

Sounds like a "controling spirit" to me....

Better they leave and Pray for those people...

the last church I attended was kind of like that...they definitly had a controling spirit within their church, had very little members, but was a great church otherwise. too bad...I haven't been to a church since other than to visit. :(:

[cindyw]

Originally posted by MarkD
Cindy,

I agree that there needs to be transparency and accountability to each other in whatever church setting we are in.

However, when we see phrases like this:

"When he asked where she was at Sunday, she told him about going to church with me and he said "That is the problem. If you lie with sleeping dogs you're going to get fleas." He then told her that as her pastor, she needs to look to him as a friend and as a messenger or ambassador of God telling her what God wants her to know. "

This is when the great big red flags go up.

1. It is clear that this pastor does not want them in contact with other churches. This is a BAD THING.

2. He is the messenger or ambassador of God? Telling her what God wants her to know? I think this statement speaks (volumes) for itself.

I would walk away.

Yeah, I agree that there are definite "red flags" concerning this Pastor. If, for nothing else, he needs to be confronted about his attitude concerning other Churches. I also agree with what Doobie said about a "controller". They don't always exist in just VERY conservative, small churches though, they also exist in HUGE seeker friendly churches. Instead of trying to control people's lives in "what they believe" is conforming to the Word of God, these others control by omission of the Word of God----to appease the masses. They make sure what comes from the pulpit (by others) is "non-offensive". Same trait, different applications. Both wrong. I do believe in Godly accountability though and some have major problems with this idea.

[Chronus]

Wow. For a minute there I thought you were talking about one of the International Churches of Christ.

[Vickimac]

Dawn, they haven't said anything about "The Way" or the "rock", have they? Sounds alot like something a friend of mine got caught up in.

[spirit]

I'm sorry your frieed is going through this.

I went through something very similar. It was in a congregation of about 30 people. For the month I visited, every time I was told I needed to attend to all the fasting and prayer services. I was told that people come to church to "work" and not just sit around. The one day I didn't go, one of the leaders showed up at my house and asked why I didn't show up (?). Later, as I didn't return as I was told I couldn't go to just "any" church. I was told, "Not everything that glitters is gold when it comes to churches."

Later, they told me they needed to teach me 'doctrine'. All this time went by and I felt very 'suffocated'. I felt I couldn't say no them, because they were children of God....I was scared. But I knew something wasn't right. I couldn't even go out with my family because they expected me in church at every service, fasting and prayer services, 5 days a week.

I finally told them I was thankful for letting me participate in their services, but I had found another church to go to.

Since then they left me alone, but they never spoke to me in the same way again.

I came to find out they don't believe in the Trinity.

[My Abba's Child]

Originally posted by MarkD

2. He is the messenger or ambassador of God? Telling her what God wants her to know? I think this statement speaks (volumes) for itself.

I would walk away.

We're ALL messengers and ambassadors of God! Pastors are to tell people about God's word, not God's WILL in that individual's life... only GOD can do that. That pastor can only tell what God's will is for HIM... He has NO CLUE what God's will is for anyone else. God tells us, individually, what He wants us to know... that's the Holy Spirit's job.

I agree... they need to get out of there AND QUICK!

In His love,

[cindyw]

Originally posted by My Abba's Child
Pastors are to tell people about God's word, not God's WILL in that individual's life... only GOD can do that.


:nod

[lookingskyward]

Encourage your friends' husband to read The Word of God for himself.

The Word will minister to his heart and teach him what a godly leader should be doing. He will be able to discern between good and evil after he's read The Book and educated himself.

The Bible has the answers to EVERYONE of life's problems.

[hopemail]

"Sounds like a "controlling spirit" to me..."

and control is so antithetical to G-D, He didn't even allow the word in the Bible...

tell your friends not to go back

[Can't Wait!]

Originally posted by hopemail
"Sounds like a "controlling spirit" to me..."

and control is so antithetical to G-D, He didn't even allow the word in the Bible...

tell your friends not to go back

Agreed 100%. If my Pastor showed up at my job to try to coerce me into coming back even ONCE I would call the police and tell them I was being stalked, get a restraining order, and find a new church ASAP. These people most definitely DO sound like a cult. Since your friend's husband is a BABY christian, he SURE doesn't need this.

[pilgrimgal]

Many years ago I was involved in a nondenominational charismatic movement called shepherding. About the time I made a natural break from my group (due to going away to college and moving away from home for job) I found out that it was pretty much considered a cult. What I heard sounds a lot like what your friend and her DH are telling you is going on. I will be praying for them.

[4Freedom]

Reformed Presbyterian, my Foot

They must be talking about what they HOPE to do do presbyterians. There is no easy way to say it:
That group is a cult.

They are very smart and very sophisticated. They have hundreds of groups around the U.S. that they call churches. But they are not churches in any conventional sense.

This movement is called “Shepherding”. It is based primarily on the premise that the will of God can be known to individuals ONLY through the Pastor, who speaks for God, in any and all matters within the family, the home, the community, and church life. The Pastor however is only the head of the Movement for his local group. He reports to someone higher. It is organized like the Catholic Church, with each church Pastor or Bishop reporting to a higher one.

This group mis-quotes and mis-uses the Bible in order to gain control of the lives and finances of its church goers. They are Very well trained how to do this. This group has been in existence since the 1960s when it was started by 5 men known as the Ft Lauderdale Shepherds. The Group was run by 5 men. In the mid 80s, they supposedly repented, but a close scan of their statement on repentance shows it to be anything but this.

They have supposedly disbanded but actually, they continue to have hundreds of home cell groups and churches under their control. The original group of 5 Shepherds were:

Derek Prince, Don Basham, Bob Mumford, Ern Baxter, Don Simpson. To that list you can Larry Thomzack, Juan Carlos Ortiz and several others. They are very well connected politically. You should do search under “shepherding” on the net and run some of those names, and see what you turn up.

They have since branched out into Boston Church of Christ, and several other groups. I would stay away from these people. I would also be careful

Ask them for a statement in writing about the role of the pastor in the life of the believer. Ask them if there are any old Protestants who agree with them ? Ask them if they have a statement of faith in writing. Ask them if they have any other group or denomination that they are affiliated with. Ask them if they have conferences or if they have a list of recommended authors. Don’t be surprised that it will be hard to deal with these people on a one on one basis. If you reveal your doubts to them, they will also report that to the rest of the group and their leadership.

If your husband just consistently says NO, then you should be OK. But they are usually disarming of guys, because they seem to have such strong leadership. They do have strong leaders. It’s just the wrong kind.