Stumbling over predestination verses

[Sojourner]

I have been studying "free will vs. predestination" for a couple of months now. I have found myself in a state of more confusion than when I first started. I have always believed that man had free will and I could not understand the idea that God would chose one person for salvation and another for destruction. But I have run into many "walls" in Scripture as I have been studying predestination.

What I would like to do is address those verses that seem to indicate that God chooses us and we do not have free will in the matter. I would like to know how others interpret these verses. How do you reconcile those verses which indicate that we are chosen by God? It may help to look at the verses and how they were translated from the original language into English. Was something changed in the translation? I don't necessarily want to debate free will vs. predestination, but rather take an indepth look at those verses which I consider to be a bricks in the wall which keep me from believing without a doubt that free will exists.

I would also like to add that I have not come to any final conclusion on this subject. I really am still studying Scripture so that I might come to a better understanding and not remain so confused. Up to this point I have always kind of "ignored" those confusing verses and have chosen to focus on the verses which say "all who believe will be saved."

Here are the first two sets of verses (bricks in the wall) I thought we could discuss (from the KJV):

Ephesians 1:4-6
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

1 Thessalonians 2:13-14
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Rom831]

The Bible both says He has Chosen us before time began and that none can come to Him that God does not send. It also says that we must choose Him and gives all kinds of refrences to our choice. The only way I can see to reconcile these two is to clarify whom He chooses.

I believe the only way that these two can fit together is if He doesn't predestine us by name, as indivduals. I believe He has predestined the people that would accept His Son to be His. With this, all scripture fits. If you are one God knew before time would choose Christ, you are in the predestined group, but its still your choice to accept. free will and predestination.

This allows God to be a loving God, desiring that none shall perish and not one who has willfully chosen the vast majority to suffer an eternity in Hell by His command with no chance of salvation. But it doesn't ignore the predestination scriptures.

Bless...ArtS

[Sojourner]

Posted by Rom831
I believe the only way that these two can fit together is if He doesn't predestine us by name, as indivduals. I believe He has predestined the people that would accept His Son to be His. With this, all scripture fits. If you are one God knew before time would choose Christ, you are in the predestined group, but its still your choice to accept. free will and predestination.
Very interesting. I never looked at it like that before. Would you say that just as God chose the nation of Israel to be His chosen people that God choses a group of believers (the body of Christ) to be His chosen and His elect? My question then would be, how does God chose a group of people to be saved without chosing each individual in that group?
Posted by Rom831
This allows God to be a loving God, desiring that none shall perish and not one who has willfully chosen the vast majority to suffer an eternity in Hell by His command with no chance of salvation. But it doesn't ignore the predestination scriptures.
You bring up a good point here. My perception of predestination has been that God wouldn't be a loving God if He chose certain people to be saved and others to be eternally lost. It wouldn't be fair. But is that viewpoint correct? Maybe I am looking at it through mere human understanding and a limited mind. Maybe from God's viewpoint it is completely fair. God is the creator and we are the creation. He can do as He pleases for the pleasure of His own will. Who am I as a the created being to say to God that He is being unfair? (Random thoughts of mine, not necessarily directed back at you ArtS :): ).

This brings me to my next set of verses:

Romans 9:16-21
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

[John Tyson]

Grace and peace to you all.

I believe the Bible teaches both predestination and free will. Acts 13:48 is one verse that embodies both of these truths, “And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.” It seems to me to be a matter of perspective. From God's perspective, God is outside of time as we know it, everything that has happened, is happening, and is going to happen is to God as though all things have happened just as He willed or "chose" prior to the "foundation of the world." We, on the other hand are locked into this estate where time advances moment by moment. In this estate, we have the time to "choose."

Since these two truths (God's sovereign will and man's personal responsibility) are in the Scriptures, they must both be true. I agree that it is sometimes hard to harmonize these two truths in our minds. I just try to look at it from the two different perspectives--God's, then man's.

God bless,
John

P.S. Prophecy is God giving us a glance at what He has already predestined and what men will choose to do.

[bigbill52a]

The ancient Christians, that remained true to the Gospel, and who in latter times were called Hugenots, and even later Baptists, and today Primitive Baptists and similar orders believed in Predestination. This belief predated Calvin.

1655 Midland Confession of Faith
(Various Churches of the Midlands in England)

1st. We believe and profess, that there is only one true God, who is our God, who is eternal, almighty, unchangeable, infinite, and incomprehensible; who is a Spirit, having His being in Himself, and giveth being to all creatures; He doth what He will, in heaven and earth; working all things according to the counsel of His own will.

2nd. That this infinite Being is set forth to be the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three agree in one. I John v.7.

3rd. We profess and believe the Holy Scriptures, the Old and New Testament, to be the word and revealed mind of God, which are able to make men wise unto Salvation, through faith and love which is in Christ Jesus; and that they are given by inspiration of God, serving to furnish the man of God for every good work; and by them we are (in the strength of Christ) to try all things whatsoever are brought to us, under the pretence of truth. II Timothy iii.15-17; Isaiah viii.20.

4th. That though Adam was created righteous, yet he fell through the temptations of Satan; and his fall overthrew, not only himself, but his posterity, making them sinners by his disobedience; so that we are by nature children of wrath, and defiled from the womb, being shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin. Psalm li.5; Romans v.12-15.

5th. That God elected and chose, in His Eternal counsel, some persons to life and salvation, before the foundation of the world, whom accordingly He doth and will effectually call, and whom He doth so call, He will certainly keep by His power, through faith to salvation. Acts xiii.48; Ephesians i.2-4; II Thessalonians ii.13; I Peter i.2, etc.

6th. That election was free in God, of His own pleasure, and not at all for, or with reference to , any foreseen works of faith in the creature, as the motive thereunto. Ephesians i.4, Romans xi.5,6.

7th. That Jesus Christ was, in the fulness of time, manifested in the flesh; being born of a woman; being perfectly righteous, gave himself for the elect to redeem them to God by his blood. John x.15; Ephesians v. 25-27; Rev. v.9.

8th. That all men until they be quickened by Christ are dead in trespasses -- Ephesians ii.1; and therefore have no power of themselves to believe savingly -- John xv.5. But faith is the free gift of God, and the mighty work of God in the soul, even like the rising of Christ from the dead -- Ephesians 1.19. Therefore consent not with those who hold that God hath given power to all men to believe to salvation.

9th. That Christ is the only true King, Priest, and Prophet of the Church. Acts ii.22-23; Hebrews iv.14, etc; viii.1, etc.

10th. That every man is justified by Christ -- Romans; viii.33; I Cor. vi.11; apprehended by faith; and that no man is justified in the sight of God partly by Christ and partly by works. Romans iii.20,28,30; Gal. v.4.

11th. That Jesus of Nazareth, of whom the scriptures of the Old Testament prophesied, is the true Messiah and Saviour of men; and that He died on the cross, was buried, rose again in the same body in which He suffered and ascended to the right hand of the majesty on high, and appeareth in the presence of God, making intercession for us.

12th That all those who have faith wrought in their hearts by the power of God, according to his good pleasure, should be careful to maintain good works, and to abound in them, acting from principles of true faith and unfeigned love, looking to God's glory as their main end. Titus iii.8; Heb. xi.6; I Cor. vi.10 and 31.

13th. That those who profess faith in Christ, and make the same appear by their fruits, are the proper subjects of Baptism. Matthew xxviii.18,19.

14th. That this baptizing is not by sprinkling, but dipping of the persons in the water, representing the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Romans vi.3,4; Colossians ii.12; Acts viii.38,39.

15th. That persons so baptized ought, by free consent, to walk together, as God shall give opportunity in distinct churches, or assemblies of Zion, continuing in the Apostles' doctrine and fellowship, breaking of bread and prayers, as fellow-men caring for one another, according to the will of God. All these ordinances of Christ are enjoined in His Church, being to be observed till his Second Coming, which we all ought diligently to wait for.

16th. That at the time appointed of the Lord, the dead bodies of all men, just and unjust, shall rise again out of their graves, that all may receive according to what they have done in their bodies, be it good or evil.

Around 1830, the Baptists split into two camps, one holding to free will and the other retaining its belief in predestination.

From another confession of faith

. God hath decreed in Himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever come to pass;(1) yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;(2) nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;(3) in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.(4)

1. Isa 46:10; Eph 1:11; Heb 6:17; Ro 9:15,18.
2. Jas 1:13; 1Jn 1:5.
3. Ac 4:27-28; Jn 19:11.
4. Nu. 23:19; Eph. 1:3-5.


2. Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions,(5) yet hath He not decreed anything, because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.(6)

5. Ac 15:18.
6. Ro 9:11,13,16,18.


3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestined, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ,(7) to the praise of His glorious grace;(8) others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice.(9)

7. 1Ti 5:21; Mt 25:34.
8. Eph 1:5-6.
9. Ro 9:22-23; Jude 4.


4. These angels and men thus predestined and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.(10)

10. 2Ti 2:19; Jn 13:18.


5. Those of mankind that are predestined to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of His mere free grace and love,(11) without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving Him thereunto.(12)

11. Eph 1:4,9,11; Ro 8:30; 2Ti 1:9; 1Th 5:9.
12. Ro 9:13,16; Eph 2:5,12.


6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so He hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto;(13) wherefore they who are elect, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,(14) are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,(15) and kept by His power through faith unto salvation;(16) neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.(17)

13. 1Pe 1:2; 2Th 2:13.
14. 1Th 5:9-10.
15. Ro 8:30; 2Th 2:13.
16. 1Pe 1:5.
17. Jn 10:26; 17:9; 6:64.


7. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yeilding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; (18) so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise,(19) reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility,(20) diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.(21)

18. 1Th 1:4-5; 2Pe 1:10.
19. Eph 1:6; Ro 11:33.
20. Ro. 11:5-6,20.


1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

[Timothy]

For the sake of entering the discussion, I've included your original two passages below.

Ephesians 1:4-6 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself...whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

I Thessalonians 2:13-14 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is how I interpret predestination in these verses. Predetination simply refers to God's overall plan, his purpose, his mystery. Not us as individuals, and not God selecting who is saved and not saved. His PLAN was predetermined, and our destination is adoptions as Sons of God through Christ. For example, in Ephesians 1, God simply predetermined his plan/purpose that we would be holy and without blame, etc. He chose that we would be saved in that manner (method) ahead of time. Note the emphasis that I put on certain words. The focus is on his plan, the destination.

Like many verses, they can be read in more than one way so you have to look for other verses to help explain them, etc. Here is another, just a few verses away.

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will

What was predestinated? The inheritance - not us individually. It is interesting to take verse 11, and then go back and read 4-6 again where it mentions inheritence.

Here is another. He predestined that we would be conformed to the image of his son. Predestination, again, concerns the method/purpose.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

[Sojourner]

Thank you for the information, bigbill52a, I don't know too much about the Hugenots. Your post references a lot of the verses which I am "stumbling" over regarding this issue of predestination.

John, I too would like to believe that predestination and free will can coexist together in some way. I'm struggling trying to understand exactly how the two can coexist, especially in light of the fact that God is omniscient. You brought up Acts 13:48 as a verse which shows free will and predestination together ... I'm not sure I see anything about free will in that verse. In the NKJV it says, "Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." I see this verse as stating that predestination is in fact part of salvation. God chooses and appoints people for eternal life.
Posted by Rom831
The Bible both says He has Chosen us before time began and that none can come to Him that God does not send. It also says that we must choose Him and gives all kinds of refrences to our choice. The only way I can see to reconcile these two is to clarify whom He chooses.
I looked up the word "choose" on an online concordance. I found one reference to choose in the New Testament (Phil. 1:22) and it had nothing to do with salvation. Most of the references found in the Old Testament have to do with God choosing. The only two that did not were Joshua 24:15 "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve", and, "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, Deut. 30:19, "...that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:".

So I think the idea of choosing salvation comes from the action of "believing". The Bible doesn't say "choose to believe" it just says "believe". But the action of believing requires us to do something, we must believe or not believe. But because we are blinded to the truth the Holy Spirit must open our eyes in order for us to believe. Are we choosing to believe in and of ourselves, or is the Holy Spirit enabling us to believe? Our faith is a gift from God (Eph. 2:8), if we have faith it is not something we have chosen, but rather something God has chosen to give to us. If the Holy Spirit enables us to believe, do we really have a choice? If it is God's will, as He has foreordained, that we believe and receive eternal life, can we go against the sovereign will of God?

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65
And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

Eph. 2:9
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Romans 8:28-30
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

[John Tyson]

Grace and peace to you all.

Here are some more verses that indicate that God does choose individuals for salvation.

Psalms 65:4
Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts; we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, enen of thy holy temple.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth,

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will who hath sent me, that of all that he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:64-65
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of the Father.

John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain; that whatever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 17:2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
(Seven times Jesus speaks of Christians as given to Him by the Father: see verses 17:6, 9, 12, 24.)

Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Romans 9:10-24
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father, Isaac
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth),
12 It was said of her, The elder shall serve the younger
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Romans 9:15-16
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So, then, it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.

A study of the word "election" or "elect" or "called" is profitable in understanding Who it is that does the electing.

God bless,
John

[John Tyson]

Grace and peace to you all.

Hi Sojourner, this may help in your study. Below is a note from the "Hebrew Greek Key Study Bible," page 1438, compiled and edited by Spiros Zodhiates, Th.D.

Ephesians 1:4-5
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him, in love
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1: 4-5. There are two verbs in this passage that introduce to us the much debated subject of God's election. One is in v. 4, "He hath chosen us." In Greek it is the aorist eklegomai which means "to select or choose out of." From this verb, we have the noun ekloge which means "choice or election." We also have the adjectival noun eklektos, "chosen out." The verb exelexato is in the aorist which means that at one particular time in the past, God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love. It is in the middle voice which means this was His own decision.

The second verb that addresses itself to the subject of God's election of the believer is in v. 5 proorisas, from proorizo made up of the preposition pro, "before," and horizo, "to determine." The compound verb means to determine or decree beforehand or to predestinate. This is the same verb used in Rom. 8:29 and translated "did predestinate." See Mt. 24:22,31; Lk. 18:7; Acts 4:28; Rom. 8:29,33; 9:11; Eph. 3:11; II Tim. 2:10; Js 2:5; I Pet. 1:2,20.

In the Bible there is set forth on the one hand the sovereignty of God, and on the other, man's free choice and hence responsibility.

Peter, in speaking of Christ on the day of Pentecost, said, "Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain" (Acts 2:23). Here in one verse we have the two principles brought together: the sovereign purpose of God in the delivering up of Christ so that men might be blessed, and human choice and responsibility in crucifying "the Prince of Life" on the other.

The perplexing question which arises is "Can a man know that he is one of the elect?"

A careful reading of the Epistle to the Romans will throw much light on the subject. There is not a word about election until we are more than halfway through the eighth chapter. The reason is clear because, until we know we are children of God and free from condemnation (Rom. 8:1-17), we are neither in the right position or condition to receive the truth.

In the early chapters of Romans, we have described man's ruined condition and his standing before God as a guilty sinner. Then follows the sinner's justification by faith without works through the finished work of Christ, the way in which the believer is freed from the mastery of sin and delivered from the law. The result is that there is "no condemnation," the spirit bearing witness that "we are children of God" (Rom. 8:16).

It is then, and not until then, that the believer learns that he has been predestinated and is one of the elect. Then it is stated that, as believers, "we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose. For whom he did foreknow he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called, and whom he called, them he also justified, and whom he justified, them he also glorified" (Rom. 8:28-30).

The person who may find himself described in the third chapter of Romans is a sinner under condemnation who stands in need of justification by faith in Christ as his Saviour, "for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23). He does not know, nor is it any concern of his, whether he is one of the elect or not. No one who desires the peace of God is refused it. If one, however, finds himself described in the eighth chapter of Romans and is already a believer, he knows that he is an elect child of God and that he has been predestinated unto salvation.

The important point is that no one is saved can say that he is saved primarily because of his own choice of God. His salvation is in response to God's choice of him. And, on the other hand, no one who is lost can say that he is lost because God willed him to be lost.

A very helpful illustration may be derived from family life: A stranger is denied a share in the little familiarities and secrets of a family. No one in the family is willing to take him into the delightful confidence of its innermost secrets. In the same manner, the unregenerate are excluded from the sweet, inner experiences and knowledge of the secrets of God which He entrusted to the members of His household. Ps. 25:14 declares that "the secret of the Lord is with them that fear him; and He will show them His covenant." Truly, therefore, the doctrine of election is a family secret, and only the children of God know it and have the capacity of grasping or understanding the deep things of God. I Cor. 2:14 states, "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Christ died for all. It does not mean only some, and while this truth is clearly revealed, nowhere does it say that His sacrifice was a substitute for all. I Jn. 2:2 state, "He is the propitiation for our sins (i.e., believers); and not for ours only but for (the sins of) the whole world. It is to be noted that the expression "the sins of" in the translation is not in the Greek text. Therefore, the Gospel is preached to all, and over and over again God says that whosoever believeth in Him (that means anybody) shall receive everlasting life (Jn. 3:16; Acts 10:43; 13:38,39). The Gospel invitation is for all, and therefore all who hear are responsible and without excuse. Thus, if one perishes in his sin, he will be lost, because he himself chose to be condemned (Tit. 3:10,11) and not because God willed it so.

God bless,
John

[My Abba's Child]

Originally posted by Sojourner
I have been studying "free will vs. predestination" for a couple of months now. I have found myself in a state of more confusion than when I first started. I have always believed that man had free will and I could not understand the idea that God would chose one person for salvation and another for destruction. But I have run into many "walls" in Scripture as I have been studying predestination.

What I would like to do is address those verses that seem to indicate that God chooses us and we do not have free will in the matter. I would like to know how others interpret these verses. How do you reconcile those verses which indicate that we are chosen by God? It may help to look at the verses and how they were translated from the original language into English. Was something changed in the translation? I don't necessarily want to debate free will vs. predestination, but rather take an indepth look at those verses which I consider to be a bricks in the wall which keep me from believing without a doubt that free will exists.

I would also like to add that I have not come to any final conclusion on this subject. I really am still studying Scripture so that I might come to a better understanding and not remain so confused. Up to this point I have always kind of "ignored" those confusing verses and have chosen to focus on the verses which say "all who believe will be saved."

Here are the first two sets of verses (bricks in the wall) I thought we could discuss (from the KJV):

Ephesians 1:4-6
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

1 Thessalonians 2:13-14
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I've heard it said that God's election vs. man's free will is sort of a continuum. One one side is God wills that NONE should perish, on the other side is man's constant rebellion. Somewhere in between is where God gives us salvation and we accept it. Since we KNOW that God's will is that none should perish, and for God so loved the WORLD, then we have to believe that salvation is offered to all, but God knows that most will not accept it because He knows the end from the beginning.

But, I have to believe that God's will is that NONE should perish because He said it once in the Old Testament and once in the New. This is where free will comes in. We seem to be the only creation which can completely disregard the will of God. Even the demons can only do what He allows.

In His love,

[Sojourner]

Posted by Timothy
Here is another. He predestined that we would be conformed to the image of his son. Predestination, again, concerns the method/purpose.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
In this verse I can see where predestinate is referring to the fact that believers will be conformed to the image of His Son. The process of santification that God promises to accomplish with each believer. The part of the verse that I still question is "For whom he did foreknow". What exactly does this mean? Does it mean that God knew ahead of time who He would be conforming to the image of His Son?

Posted by John Tyson
The important point is that no one is saved can say that he is saved primarily because of his own choice of God. His salvation is in response to God's choice of him. And, on the other hand, no one who is lost can say that he is lost because God willed him to be lost.
I would agree that no one who is saved can say that they are saved because of anything they have done on their part. Even the act of believing comes about after God has drawn that person to Himself. As the Bible says, "there is none that seeks after God" (Rom. 3:11). Therefore God does chose. But it would seem that those whom God has not "chosen" are not in God's sovereign will. The Bible says that each man is accountable to God for his/her actions on this earth. Each man is responsible before God and I realize that without God's mercy no one would be saved.

Posted by My Abbas Child
I've heard it said that God's election vs. man's free will is sort of a continuum. One one side is God wills that NONE should perish, on the other side is man's constant rebellion. Somewhere in between is where God gives us salvation and we accept it. Since we KNOW that God's will is that none should perish, and for God so loved the WORLD, then we have to believe that salvation is offered to all, but God knows that most will not accept it because He knows the end from the beginning.
This makes sense to me. I think that there must be a choice made when the Holy Spirit draws man to God. It is in that moment of enlightenment when the person can believe or reject the call of salvation. Do you think that God calls all men to salvation, but only a certain foreknown group listen to the call and do the will of God? As John suggested I have been doing some research on the words "elect", "election", and "called". I'm coming up with more verses to add to my wall. :laugh

I am actually hoping that through this thread others might bring to light verses which would indicate that man does indeed have "free will" to chose to believe.

[LanceVB]

Let me state that election is a very advanced study when it comes to the Word of God.

See what you think...
God is not limited by time. Man is limited by time. God's omniscience, or more specifically His foreknowledge knew in "eternity past" who was going to accept the grace solution for salvation. Since He knew who was going to accept the grace solution, He then elected these individuals in "eternity past". Although in time, which is linear, people choose the salvation solution. Example "I was saved November 25, of 1984". At that time, election was appropiated to me. On November 24, 1984, I still was not elected in time, although God knew I would believe the next day.

Notes:
Election is always mentioned for believers only

God does not predestine anybody to hell. This is called double predestination, and it is an incorrect application. Like you said, God is perfect fairness.

I believe in a corporate election, whereby God elected me in "eternity past", but election was not appropiated to me until I became part of the body of Christ.

Volition is very very important. People must choose on their own free will to believe in Christ (and to grow in grace). When people believe with their own free will, it "shows" Satan that he made the wrong decision to disobey God, and that the Lake of fire is his destiny.

Mankind, especially the Royal Family (believers in Christ) are connected to the angelic conflict forever!

Lance

[Sojourner]

Posted by LanceVB
God is not limited by time. Man is limited by time. God's omniscience, or more specifically His foreknowledge knew in "eternity past" who was going to accept the grace solution for salvation. Since He knew who was going to accept the grace solution, He then elected these individuals in "eternity past".
Does this mean that when we believe in Christ we are elected for salvation, a salvation that is not complete until we die physically? We are elected to adoption, but that adoption and future redemption and glorification are yet to come? Therefore we are still considered the "elect", because we have not yet been redeemed? Ephesians 1:14 says, "Who (Holy Spirit) is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."
Posted by LanceVB
I believe in a corporate election, whereby God elected me in "eternity past", but election was not appropiated to me until I became part of the body of Christ.
Now this is something I would like to study further. Does scripture speak in a past, present, and future tense when it talks about the elect? Meaning, when speaking about the elect of God scripture is referring to everyone who has been saved or will be saved in the future? Once we are saved we become "elected", but God doesn't chose one person for election over another person? The chosing still rests on the individual person?

What do you make of the verses which speak of God calling believers? When the Bible talks about "those who are called", is it just another way of describing the "elect"? Or does it mean that God calls only those whom He knows (because He is omniscient) will listen to His call and believe? Or does God call everyone? Maybe it means two separate things. God calls all people to believe, but those people who do believe are then referred to as "called".

1 Cor. 1:26-27
For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty.

Jude 1
To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.

[Rom831]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sojourner
Very interesting. I never looked at it like that before. Would you say that just as God chose the nation of Israel to be His chosen people that God choses a group of believers (the body of Christ) to be His chosen and His elect?

Very similar except that the Jews were born Jews. It wasn't by their choice.

My question then would be, how does God chose a group of people to be saved without chosing each individual in that group?

Because its like I choose the Vikings to beat the 49ers this weekend. I'm not selecting certain people, but the team.

You bring up a good point here. My perception of predestination has been that God wouldn't be a loving God if He chose certain people to be saved and others to be eternally lost. It wouldn't be fair. But is that viewpoint correct?

Some will tell you it isn't. But I can't see how it can't be correct. I know God's ways are His and not mine, but I cannot fathome how strict predestination could ever come from a loving God. As God would choose by name, a few to be saved, He would also chose by name, the vast majority to suffer. It becomes HIS choice for the majority to suffer eternal torment. And to say a god like that "desires that none be lost" would be a lie.

It would be like a dictator picking up a phone book pointing at names, "You get a mansion and luxaries. You, you, you, you and you I'm going to burn down your houses with you and everything in it you love." Except multiply it times eternity. Yes it shows one part grace, mercy, and love, but nine parts hate, cruelty and condemnation. Not qualities of the God I serve.

This brings me to my next set of verses:

...Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

This is saying we do not have the right to question God over whom He saves. If He saves the thief on the cross who did nothing good and fully admitted he deserved Rome's most torterous punnishment yet doesn't save an athiest who obeyed the law, gave to charities, and lived a "decent" life, is that fair? The answer is He has mercy on whom He wills.

Bless...ArtS

[John Tyson]

Grace and peace to you all.

Originally posted by Sojourner
I am actually hoping that through this thread others might bring to light verses which would indicate that man does indeed have "free will" to chose to believe.

In discussions of predestination and free will, not often do we have to find verses to support free will. Most folks stumble over predestination. Most folks know about free will as we exercise it each day. By free will, I choose to post this post. By free will, whoever reads here chose to read. Free will seems empirically obvious. Therefore, quoting scripture that supports free will is not something often asked for, but here are a couple of verses I can think of off the top of my head.

Matt. 23:37 (NASB) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."

Luke 7:29-30 (NASB) And when all the people and the tax-gatherers heard this, they acknowledged God's justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

God bless,
John

[rs41]

I haven't studied this much, but it seems to me if some are predestined for hell and some for salvation, then our faith is made null and void, because if we are predestined we have no need for faith because the issue is already decided.

[John Tyson]

Grace and peace to you all.

Some more verses on human will.

Matt 11:14 (NASB) And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come.

Matt 18:30 (NASB) But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.

Matt 22:3 (NASB) And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come.

Matt 23:4 (NASB) They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.

John 5:39-40 (NASB) You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

John 7:17 (NASB) If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.

Act 7:39 (NASB) Our fathers were unwilling to be obedient to him, but repudiated him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt,

Romans 7:18 (NASB) For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

James 2:20 (NASB) But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

God bless,
John

[John Tyson]

Originally posted by rs41
I haven't studied this much, but it seems to me if some are predestined for hell and some for salvation, then our faith is made null and void, because if we are predestined we have no need for faith because the issue is already decided.

Hi rs41,
Maybe the liberals are right. The Bible contradicts itself. For in Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 there are folks "whose name were NOT written in the book of life from the foundation of the world." They are the ones who will worship the Beast.

Grasping both truths, God's sovereign will and human responsibility, is hard for many to harmonize. Because it is so hard, some will move to the extreme side of Predestination, and some will move to the extreme side of Free Will. Satan doesn't really care which extreme side one goes to, just so long as one goes to the extreme, and then cause confusion and fighting within the Church.

God bless,
John

[rs41]

I knew I shouldn't post. I was not saying the bible is contradicting itself and I am certainly not liberal, but I am back to being silent here at Rapture Ready.

[John Tyson]

Grace and peace to you all.

Originally posted by rs41
I knew I shouldn't post. I was not saying the bible is contradicting itself and I am certainly not liberal, but I am back to being silent here at Rapture Ready.

Dear rs41,
I apologize. I didn't mean to imply that you are a liberal or that you are saying the Bible contridicts itself. rs41, your comment is a common view. It was my intent to make a generic statement, not to back you into silence. Please forgive me.

God bless,
John

[GloryBound]

I've been struggling with this issue myself recently. I was always taught "extreme" free will, as you say. And I believed it. But when I consider the extreme effort God put into seeing to it that I was saved, I do have to think about WHY?

I've mentioned this before, so I'll be brief. My grandparents, parents, aunts and uncles all are/were saved. We had family devotions twice daily all my childhood. I knew the Bible extremely well, and memorized many whole chapters. And I was saved at age five. Enough blessings to make some quite envious.

But satan had plans for me. Big plans. Major plans. I won't say what I was offered, but some would kill to get what was going to be handed to me on a silver platter. But because of my background, and the fact that I was already saved and loved God with my whole heart, and knew sound doctrine and memorized the scriptures I needed to quote, I was able to say "no" and say why. And I've had to put up with huge satanic attacks since.

Obviously God never intended for this thing to happen. Psalm 33:10 says: "The LORD bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought: he maketh the devices of the people of none effect." So he wanted me specificly to be saved. So was I predestined?

The predestination people speak of "irresistable grace" I always thought it was my choice, although I cannot understand why anyone would ever resist salvation.

The way I see it now is that God gave me the grace to endure what I needed to in order to be saved. And someone else may never be tempted in the same way, so may need something different. I think it WAS my choice, but God made it easy for me. VERY easy.

So I don't have the answer. I STILL believe that Jesus died for "whosoever believeth on Him". But when the calvinists on Sky Angel tell me I was chosen, I just want to cry, I feel SOOOO GOOD.

There is a song we used to sing "We'll understand it better by and by". I"ll just believe that.

[Sojourner]

Posted by John Tyson
Grasping both truths, God's sovereign will and human responsibility, is hard for many to harmonize. Because it is so hard, some will move to the extreme side of Predestination, and some will move to the extreme side of Free Will. Satan doesn't really care which extreme side one goes to, just so long as one goes to the extreme, and then cause confusion and fighting within the Church.
It is definitely hard to harmonize. But there must be a harmony there because both concepts are taught in the Bible. Just as I cannot ignore the verses pointing to predestination and God chosing us for salvation, I cannot ignore the verses which speak of man having a will which can be either "willing" or "unwilling".

The concept of predestination and election must be looked at from God's viewpoint ... outside of time. If I look at it from my limited viewpoint then I don't understand how God can know the names written in the Lambs Book of Life before the foundation of the world. If God knows every name written there before they are even born, it is hard to see see where our "choice" comes in. But it does.

Perhaps God looked far ahead into the end of time and saw the people who were "willing" to believe. God then created the book of Life and wrote their names down, before He ever created the world. Then God created the world according to His pleasure and His will and He watches His creation unfold. He knows how everything will turn out, but He doesn't create each individual for heaven or hell. People are predestinated because God knows their final destination. It is "pre" because God sees it ahead of time, but it's not "pre" destinated because God chose that destination.

Posted by GloryBound
I've mentioned this before, so I'll be brief. My grandparents, parents, aunts and uncles all are/were saved. We had family devotions twice daily all my childhood. I knew the Bible extremely well, and memorized many whole chapters. And I was saved at age five. Enough blessings to make some quite envious.
I was also saved as a child, I was six. Maybe that is why I have trouble unstanding the struggle of making a choice to believe. When my Mom explained the gospel to me, it just made perfect sense. It was easy for me to believe (faith of a child I guess). I understood that I was a sinner and that Jesus died for me. I readily believed. Perhaps grace is more irresistable to a child than to an adult. When grace comes to an adult, maybe it is much easier to resist the call to salvation than it is to believe.

[John Tyson]

Grace and peace to you all.

Sojourner,
I think you have got it! I could quibble on some minor points, but I agree with what you said in your last post. I appreciate you for this thread. You have promoted a thought provoking discussion that has not fallen into the predictable Calvinist vs. Arminian debating points.

God bless,
John

[LanceVB]

Does this mean that when we believe in Christ we are elected for salvation, a salvation that is not complete until we die physically? We are elected to adoption, but that adoption and future redemption and glorification are yet to come? Therefore we are still considered the "elect", because we have not yet been redeemed? Ephesians 1:14 says, "Who (Holy Spirit) is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

There is also the doctrine of sanctification. Three that I have been taught. Positional, experiential, and ultimate. If you like I can make another thread on these because discussing these would make this thread veer. (give me a day to look at my notes).

I think we have been redeemed at salvation whereby Christ paid the price for our salvation at the cross.

Election and predestiniation can bake your noodle.

The chosing still rests on the individual person?

The Greek word "if" in the 3rd class condition supports this. It is usually translated "maybe yes, or maybe no" a great example of a third class condition is:
1 John 1:9 If (maybe yes, maybe no) we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Volition is necesary for salvation, of course the famous John 3:16:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


A great example of doing the Father's will by choice and not having a fatalistic viewpoint was when Christ himself prayed to God the Father to take this cup away from Him if it be His will.

Matt. 26:42 He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."

If everything was "set" why would our Lord pray this prayer? If everything is set why do we have to go out and give the gospel to the lost and dying world?

Everytime a believer places his faith (a choice) in Jesus Christ, this glorifies God. Everytime a believer does the Father's will (a choice) for his life, this glorifies God. Satan, on the other hand, can't stand it! because it proves that he was incorrect in his thinking.


interesting stuff on called and glorification:

The following are from my notes on the 63 things that God gives us at salvation:

53) Called
The act whereby God effectually calls the elect as Gospel illumination to eternal life, fellowship, freedom, obedience, and eternal blessing.

Rom. 8:30: And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

1 Cor. 1:9: God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

Gal. 5:13: You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.

Eph. 4:4: There is one body and one Spirit-- just as you were called to one hope when you were called--

Col. 3:15: Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful.

1 Tim. 6:12: Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

1 Pet. 2:21: To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

1 Pet. 3:9: Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing.


54) Glorified
The declaration that God's final sanctifying work in the believer is as good as completed from God's eternal perspective at faith alone in Christ alone.

Rom. 8:30: And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

cf.

Phil. 1:6: being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Col. 3:4: When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Lance :):

[blitzkreig]

All... I appreciate any comments...

Are There Two Wills in God?

Divine Election and God's Desire for All to be Saved

The Aim of the Chapter

My aim in this chapter is to show from Scripture that the simultaneous existence of God's will for "all persons to be saved" (1 Tim. 2:4) and his will to elect unconditionally those who will actually be saved is not a sign of divine schizophrenia or exegetical confusion. A corresponding aim is to show that unconditional election therefore does not contradict biblical expressions of God's compassion for all people, and does not nullify sincere offers of salvation to everyone who is lost among all the peoples of the world.

1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, and Ezekiel 18:23 might be called the Arminian pillar texts concerning the universal saving will of God. In 1 Timothy 2:1-4 Paul says that the reason we should pray for kings and all in high positions is that this may bring about a quiet and peaceable life which "is good, and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who wills (thelei) all persons to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." In 2 Peter 3:8-9 the apostle says that the delay of the second coming of Christ is owing to the fact that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day. "The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not willing (boulomenos) that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." And in Ezekiel 18:23 and 32 the Lord speaks about his heart for the perishing: "Do I indeed delight in the death of the wicked, says the Lord GOD, and not rather in his turning from his way that he might live? . . . I do not delight ()ehephoz) in the death of the one who dies, says the Lord; so turn and live" (cf. 33:11).

It is possible that careful exegesis of 1 Timothy 2:4 would lead us to believe that "God's willing all persons to be saved" does not refer to every individual person in the world, but rather to all sorts of persons, since the "all persons" in verse 1 may well mean groups like "kings and all in high positions" (v. 2). It is also possible that the "you" in 2 Peter 3:9 ("the Lord is longsuffering toward you, not wishing any to perish") refers not to every person in the world but to "you" professing Christians among whom, as Adolf Schlatter says, "are people who only through repentance can attain to the grace of God and to the promised inheritance."

Nevertheless the case for this limitation on God's universal saving will has never been convincing to Arminians and likely will not become convincing, especially since Ezekiel 18:23, 32 and 33:11 are even less tolerant of restriction. Therefore as a hearty believer in unconditional, individual election I rejoice to affirm that God does not delight in the perishing of the impenitent, and that he has compassion on all people. My aim is to show that this is not double talk.

The assignment in this chapter is not to defend the doctrine that God chooses unconditionally whom he will save. I have tried to do that elsewhere and others do it in this book. Nevertheless I will try to make a credible case that while the Arminian pillar texts may indeed be pillars for universal love, nevertheless they are not weapons against unconditional election. If I succeed then there will be an indirect confirmation for the thesis of this book. In fact I think Arminians have erred in trying to take pillars of universal love and make them into weapons against electing grace.

Affirming the will of God to save all, while also affirming the unconditional election of some, implies that there are at least "two wills" in God, or two ways of willing. It implies that God decrees one state of affairs while also willing and teaching that a different state of affairs should come to pass. This distinction in the way God wills has been expressed in various ways throughout the centuries. It is not a new contrivance. For example, theologians have spoken of sovereign will and moral will, efficient will and permissive will, secret will and revealed will, will of decree and will of command, decretive will and preceptive will, voluntas signi (will of sign) and voluntas beneplaciti (will of good pleasure), etc.

Clark Pinnock refers disapprovingly to "the exceedingly paradoxical notion of two divine wills regarding salvation." In Pinnock's more recent volume (A Case for Arminianism) Randall Basinger argues that, "if God has decreed all events, then it must be that things cannot and should not be any different from what they are." In other words he rejects the notion that God could decree that a thing be one way and yet teach that we should act to make it another way. He says that it is too hard "to coherently conceive of a God in which this distinction really exists"

In the same volume Fritz Guy argues that the revelation of God in Christ has brought about a "paradigm shift" in the way we should think about the love of God -- namely as "more fundamental than, and prior to, justice and power." This shift, he says, makes it possible to think about the "will of God" as "delighting more than deciding." God's will is not his sovereign purpose which he infallibly establishes, but rather "the desire of the lover for the beloved." The will of God is his general intention and longing, not his effective purpose. Dr. Guy goes so far as to say, "Apart from a predestinarian presupposition, it becomes apparent that God's 'will' is always (sic) to be understood in terms of intention and desire [as opposed to efficacious, sovereign purpose]."

These criticisms are not new. Jonathan Edwards wrote 250 years ago, "The Arminians ridicule the distinction between the secret and revealed will of God, or, more properly expressed, the distinction between the decree and the law of God; because we say he may decree one thing, and command another. And so, they argue, we hold a contrariety in God, as if one will of his contradicted another."

But in spite of these criticisms the distinction stands, not because of a logical or theological deduction, but because it is inescapable in the Scriptures. The most careful exegete writing in Pinnock's Case for Arminianism concedes the existence of two wills in God. I. Howard Marshall applies his exegetical gift to the Pastoral Epistles. Concerning 1 Timothy 2:4 he says,

To avoid all misconceptions it should be made clear at the outset that the fact that God wishes or wills that all people should be saved does not necessarily imply that all will respond to the gospel and be saved. We must certainly distinguish between what God would like to see happen and what he actually does will to happen, and both of these things can be spoken of as God's will. The question at issue is not whether all will be saved but whether God has made provision in Christ for the salvation of all, provided that they believe, and without limiting the potential scope of the death of Christ merely to those whom God knows will believe.

In this chapter I would now like to undergird Marshall's point that "we must certainly distinguish between what God would like to see happen and what he actually does will to happen, and [that] both of these things can be spoken of as God's will." Perhaps the most effective way to do this is to begin by drawing attention to the way Scripture portrays God willing something in one sense which he disapproves in another sense. Then, after seeing some of the biblical evidence, we can step back and ponder how to understand this in relation to God's saving purposes.

Illustrations of Two Wills in God
The Death of Christ
The most compelling example of God's willing for sin to come to pass while at the same time disapproving the sin is his willing the death of his perfect, divine Son. The betrayal of Jesus by Judas was a morally evil act inspired immediately by Satan (Luke 22:3). Yet in Acts 2:23 Luke says, "This Jesus [was] delivered up according to the definite plan (boule) and foreknowledge of God." The betrayal was sin, and it involved the instrumentality of Satan; but it was part of God's ordained plan. That is, there is a sense in which God willed the delivering up of his Son, even though the act was sin.

Moreover Herod's contempt for Jesus (Luke 23:11) and Pilate's spineless expediency (Luke 23:24) and the Jews' "Crucify! Crucify him!" (Luke 23:21) and the Gentile soldiers' mockery (Luke 23:36) were also sinful attitudes and deeds. Yet in Acts 4:27-28 Luke expresses his understanding of the sovereignty of God in these acts by recording the prayer of the Jerusalem saints:

Truly in this city there were gathered together against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel to do whatever thy hand and thy plan (boule) had predestined to take place.

Herod, Pilate, the soldiers and Jewish crowds lifted their hand to rebel against the Most High only to find that their rebellion was unwitting (sinful) service in the inscrutable designs of God.

The appalling death of Christ was the will and work of God the Father. Isaiah wrote, "We esteemed him stricken, smitten by God . . . It was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief" (Isaiah 53:4,10). God's will was very much engaged in the events that brought his Son to death on the cross. God considered it "fitting to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings" (Hebrews 2:10). Yet, as Jonathan Edwards points out, Christ's suffering "could not come to pass but by sin. For contempt and disgrace was one thing he was to suffer."

It goes almost without saying that God wills obedience to his moral law, and that he wills this in a way that can be rejected by many. This is evident from numerous texts: "Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will (thelema) of my Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21). "Whoever does the will of my Father in heaven, he is my brother and sister and mother" (Matthew 12:50). "The one who does the will of God abides forever" (1 John 2:17). The "will of God" in these texts is the revealed, moral instruction of the Old and New Testaments, which proscribes sin.

Therefore we know it was not the "will of God" that Judas and Pilate and Herod and the Gentile soldiers and the Jewish crowds disobey the moral law of God by sinning in delivering Jesus up to be crucified. But we also know that it was the will of God that this come to pass. Therefore we know that God in some sense wills what he does not will in another sense. I. Howard Marshall's statement is confirmed by the death of Jesus: "We must certainly distinguish between what God would like to see happen and what he actually does will to happen."

The War Against the Lamb
There are two reasons that we turn next to Revelation 17:16-17. One is that the war against the Son of God, which reached its sinful climax at the cross comes to final consummation in a way that confirms what we have seen about the will of God. The other reason is that this text reveals John's understanding of God's active involvement in fulfilling prophecies whose fulfillment involves sinning. John sees a vision of some final events of history:

And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the harlot; they will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and giving over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled (Revelation 17:16-17).

Without going into all the details of this passage, the relevant matter is clear. The beast "comes out of the abyss" (Revelation 17:8). He is the personification of evil and rebellion against God. The ten horns are ten kings (v. 12) and they "wage war against the Lamb" (v. 14).

Waging war against the Lamb is sin and sin is contrary to the will of God. Nevertheless the angel says (literally), "God gave into their [the ten kings'] hearts to do his will, and to perform one will, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled" (v. 17). Therefore God willed (in one sense) to influence the hearts of the ten kings so that they would do what is against his will (in another sense).

Moreover God did this in fulfillment of prophetic words. The ten kings will collaborate with the beast "until the words of God shall be fulfilled" (v. 17). This implies something crucial about John's understanding of the fulfillment of "the prophesies leading up to the overthrow of Antichrist." It implies that (at least in John's view) God's prophecies are not mere predictions which God knows will happen, but rather are divine intentions which he makes sure will happen. We know this because verse 17 says that God is acting to see to it that the ten kings make league with the beast "until the words of God shall be fulfilled." John is exulting not in the marvelous foreknowledge of God to predict a bad event. Rather he is exulting in the marvelous sovereignty of God to make sure that the bad event comes about. Fulfilled prophecy, in John's mind, is not only prediction, but also promised performance.

This is important because John tells us in his Gospel that there are Old Testament prophecies of events surrounding the death of Christ that involve sin. This means that God intends to bring about events that involve things he forbids. These events include Judas' betrayal of Jesus (John 13:18; Psalm 41:9), the hatred Jesus received from his enemies (John 15:25; Psalm 69:4; 35:19), the casting of lots for Jesus' clothing (John 19:24; Psalm 22:18), and the piercing of Jesus' side (John 19:36-37; Exodus 12:46; Psalm 34:20; Zechariah 12:10). John expresses his theology of God's sovereignty with the words, "These things happened in order that the scripture be fulfilled." In other words the events were not a coincidence that God merely foresaw, but a plan which God purposed to bring about. Thus again we find the words of I. Howard Marshall confirmed: "We must certainly distinguish between what God would like to see happen and what he actually does will to happen."

The Hardening Work of God
Another evidence to demonstrate God's willing a state of affairs in one sense that he disapproves in another sense is the testimony of Scripture that God wills to harden some men's hearts so that they become obstinate in sinful behavior which God disapproves.

The most well known example is the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. In Exodus 8:1 the Lord says to Moses, "Go in to Pharaoh and say to him, 'Thus says the LORD, "Let my people go, that they may serve me."'" In other words God's command, that is, his will, is that Pharaoh let the Israelites go. Nevertheless from the start he also willed that Pharaoh not let the Israelites go. In Exodus 4:21 God says to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in your hand; but I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go." At one point Pharaoh himself acknowledges that his unwillingness to let the people go is sin: "Now therefore forgive, I pray, my sin" (Exodus 10:17). Thus what we see is that God commands that Pharaoh do a thing which God himself wills not to allow. The good thing that God commands he prevents. And the thing he brings about involves sin.

Some have tried to avoid this implication by pointing out that during the first five plagues the text does not say explicitly that God hardened Pharaoh's heart but that it "was hardened" (Exodus 7:22; 8:19; 9:7) or that Pharaoh hardened his own heart (Exodus 8:15,32), and that only in the sixth plague does it say explicitly "the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart" (9:12; 10:20,27; 11:10; 14:4). For example R.T. Forster and V.P. Marston say that only from the sixth plague on God gave Pharaoh "supernatural strength to continue with his evil path of rebellion"

But this observation does not succeed in avoiding the evidence of two wills in God. Even if Forster and Marston were right that God was not willing for Pharaoh's heart to be hardened during the first five plagues, they concede that for the last five plagues God does will this, at least in the sense of strengthening Pharaoh to continue in the path of rebellion. Thus there is a sense in which God does will that Pharaoh go on refusing to let the people go, and there is a sense in which he does will that Pharaoh release the people. For he commands, "Let my people go." This illustrates why theologians talk about the "will of command" ("Let my people go!") and the "will of decree" ("God hardened Pharaoh's heart").

The Exodus is not a unique instance of God's acting in this way. When the people of Israel reached the land of Sihon king of Heshbon, Moses sent messengers "with words of peace saying, Let me pass through your land; I will travel only on the highway" (Deuteronomy 2:26-27). Even though this request should have lead Sihon to treat the people of God with respect, as God willed for his people to be blessed rather than attacked, nevertheless "Sihon the king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him; for the LORD your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that he might give him into your hand, as at this day" (Deuteronomy 2:30). In other words it was God's will (in one sense) that Sihon act in a way that was contrary to God's will (in another sense) that Israel be blessed and not cursed.

Similarly the conquest of the cities of Canaan is owing to God's willing that the kings of the land resist Joshua rather than make peace with him. "Joshua waged war a long time with all these kings. There was not a city which made peace with the sons of Israel except the Hivites living in Gibeon; they took them all in battle. For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, to meet Israel in battle in order that he might utterly destroy them, that they might receive no mercy, but that he might destroy them, just as the Lord had commanded Moses" (Joshua 11:19-20). In view of this it is difficult to imagine what Fritz Guy means when he says that the "will of God" is always to be thought of in terms of loving desire and intention rather than in terms of God's effective purpose of judgment. What seems more plain is that when the time has come for judgment God wills that the guilty do things that are against his revealed will, like cursing Israel rather than blessing her.

The hardening work of God was not limited to non-Israelites. In fact it plays a central role in the life of Israel in this period of history. In Romans 11:7-9 Paul speaks of Israel's failure to obtain the righteousness and salvation it desired: "Israel failed to obtain what it sought. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day." Even though it is the command of God that his people see and hear and respond in faith (Isaiah 42:18), nevertheless God also has his reasons for sending a spirit of stupor at times so that some will not obey his command.

Jesus expressed this same truth when he explained that one of the purposes of speaking in parables to the Jews of his day was to bring about this judicial blinding or stupor. In Mark 4:11-12 he said to his disciples, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables; so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and be forgiven." Here again God wills that a condition prevail which he regards as blameworthy. His will is that they turn and be forgiven (Mark 1:15), but he acts in a way to restrict the fulfillment of that will.

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Paul pictures this divine hardening as part of an overarching plan that will involve salvation for Jew and Gentile. In Romans 11:25-26 he says to his Gentile readers, "Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved." The fact that the hardening has an appointed end -- "until the full number of the Gentiles comes in" -- shows that it is part of God's plan rather than a merely contingent event outside God's purpose. Nevertheless Paul expresses not only his but also God's heart when he says in Romans 10:1, "My heart's desire and prayer to God for them [Israel] is their salvation." God holds out his hands to a rebellious people (Romans 10:21), but ordains a hardening that consigns them for a time to disobedience.
This is the point of Romans 11:31-32. Paul speaks to his Gentile readers again about the disobedience of Israel in rejecting their Messiah: "So they [Israel] have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you [Gentiles] they also may receive mercy." When Paul says that Israel was disobedient "in order that" Gentiles might get the benefits of the gospel, whose purpose does he have in mind? It can only be God's. For Israel did not conceive of their own disobedience as a way of blessing the Gentiles or winning mercy for themselves in such a round about fashion. The point of Romans 11:31 therefore is that God's hardening of Israel is not an end in itself, but is part of a saving purpose that will embrace all the nations. But in the short run we have to say that he wills a condition (hardness of heart) which he commands people to strive against ("Do not harden your heart" (Hebrews 3:8, 15; 4:7).

God's Right to Restrain Evil and His Will Not To
Another line of Biblical evidence that God sometimes wills to bring about what he disapproves is his choosing to use or not to use his right to restrain evil in the human heart.

Proverbs 21:1 says, "The king's heart is like channels of water in the hands of the Lord; he turns it wherever he wishes." An illustration of this divine right over the king's heart is given in Genesis 20. Abraham is sojourning in Gerar and says to king Abimelech that Sarah is his sister. So Abimelech takes her as part of his harem. But God is displeased and warns him in a dream that she is married to Abraham. Abimelech protests to God that he had taken her in his integrity. And God says (in verse 6), "Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also kept you from sinning against me; therefore I did not let you touch her."

What is apparent here is that God has the right and the power to restrain the sins of secular rulers. When he does, it is his will to do it. And when he does not, it is his will not to. Which is to say that sometimes God wills that their sins be restrained and sometimes he wills that they increase more than if he restrained them.

It is not an unjust infringement on human agency that the Creator has the right and power to restrain the evil actions of his creatures. Psalm 33:10-11 says, "The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nought; he frustrates the plans of the peoples. The counsel of the LORD stands for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations." Sometimes God frustrates the will of rulers by making their plans fail. Sometimes he does so by influencing their hearts the way he did Abimelech, without them even knowing it.

But there are times when God does not use this right because he intends for human evil to run its course. For example, God meant to put the sons of Eli to death. Therefore he willed that they not listen to their father's counsel: "Now Eli was very old; and he heard all that his sons were doing to all Israel, and how they lay with the women who served at the doorway of the tent of meeting. And he said to them, `Why do you do such things, the evil things that I hear from all these people? No, my sons; for the report is not good which I hear the Lord's people circulating. If one man sins against another, God will mediate for him; but if a man sins against the Lord, who can intercede for him?' But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for the Lord desired to put them to death" (1 Samuel 2:22-25).

Why would the sons of Eli not give heed to their father's good counsel? The answer of the text is "because the Lord desired to put them to death." This only makes sense if the Lord had the right and the power to restrain their disobedience -- a right and power which he willed not to use. Thus we must say that in one sense God willed that the sons of Eli go on doing what he commanded them not to do: dishonoring their father and committing sexual immorality.

Moreover the word for "desired" in the clause, "the Lord desired to put them to death," is the same Hebrew word (haphez) used in Ezekiel 18:23,32 and 33:11 where God asserts that he does not desire the death of the wicked. God desired to put the sons of Eli to death, but he does not desire the death of the wicked. This is a strong warning to us not to take one assertion, like Ezekiel 18:23 and assume we know the precise meaning without letting other scripture like 1 Samuel 2:25 have a say. The upshot of putting the two together is that in one sense God may desire the death of the wicked and in another sense he may not.

Another illustration of God's choosing not to use his right to restrain evil is found in Romans 1:24-28. Three times Paul says that God hands people over (paredoken) to sink further into corruption. Verse 24: "God handed them over to the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves." Verse 26: "God handed them over to dishonorable passions." Verse 28: "And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to a base mind and to improper conduct." God has the right and the power to restrain this evil the way he did for Abimelech. But he did not will to do that. Rather his will in this case was to punish, and part of God's punishment on evil is sometimes willing that evil increase. But this means that God chooses for behavior to come about which he commands not to happen. The fact that God's willing is punitive does not change that. And the fact that it is justifiably punitive is one of the points of this chapter. There are other examples we could give, but we pass on to a different line of evidence.

Does God Delight in the Punishment of the Wicked?
We just saw that God "desired" to put the sons of Eli to death, and that the word for desire is the same one used in Ezekiel 18:23 when God says he does not "delight" in the death of the wicked. Another illustration of this complex desiring is found in Deuteronomy 28:63. Moses is warning of coming judgment on unrepentant Israel. What he says is strikingly different (not contradictory, I will argue) from Ezekiel 18:23. "And as the Lord took delight in doing you good and multiplying you, so the Lord will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you."

Here an even stronger word for joy is used (yasis) when it says that God will "take delight over you to cause you to perish and to destroy you." We are faced with the inescapable biblical fact that in some sense God does not delight in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 18), and in some sense he does (Deuteronomy 28:63; 2 Samuel 2:25).

How Extensive Is the Sovereign Will of God?
Behind this complex relationship of two wills in God is the foundational biblical premise that God is indeed sovereign in a way that makes him ruler of all actions. R.T. Forster and V.P. Marston try to overcome the tension between God's will of decree and God's will of command by asserting that there is no such thing as God's sovereign will of decree: "Nothing in Scripture suggests that there is some kind of will or plan of God which is inviolable." This is a remarkable claim. Without claiming to be exhaustive it will be fair to touch on some scriptures briefly that do indeed "suggest that there is some kind of will or plan of God which is inviolable."

There are passages that ascribe to God the final control over all calamities and disasters wrought by nature or by man. Amos 3:6, "Does evil befall a city, unless the LORD has done it? Isaiah 45:7, "I am the LORD, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things." Lamentations 3:37-38, "Who has commanded and it came to pass, unless the Lord has ordained it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come?" Noteworthy in these texts is that the calamities in view involve human hostilities and cruelties that God would disapprove of even as he wills that they be.

The apostle Peter wrote concerning God's involvement in the sufferings of his people at the hands of their antagonists. In his first letter he spoke of the "will of God" in two senses. It was something to be pursued and lived up to on the one hand. "Such is the will of God, that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men" (1 Peter 2:15). "Live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men but for the will of God" (4:2). On the other hand the will of God was not his moral instruction, but the state of affairs that he sovereignly brought about. "For it is better to suffer for doing right, if that should be God's will, than for doing wrong" (3:17). "Let those who suffer according to God's will do right and entrust their souls to a faithful Creator" (4:19). And in this context, the suffering which Peter has in mind is the suffering which comes from hostile people and therefore cannot come without sin.

In fact the New Testament saints seemed to live in the calm light of an overarching sovereignty of God concerning all the details of their lives and ministry. Paul expressed himself like this with regard to his travel plans. On taking leave of the saints in Ephesus he said, "I will return to you if God wills," (Acts 18:21). To the Corinthians he wrote, "I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills" (1 Corinthians 4:19). And again, "I do not want to see you now just in passing; I hope to spend some time with you, if the Lord permits" (1 Corinthians 16:7).

The writer to the Hebrews says that his intention is to leave the elementary things behind and press on to maturity. But then he pauses and adds, "And this we will do if God permits" (6:3). This is remarkable since it is hard to imagine one even thinking that God might not permit such a thing unless one had a remarkably high view of the sovereign prerogatives of God.

James warns against the pride of presumption in speaking of the simplest plans in life without a due submission to the overarching sovereignty of God in whether the day's agenda might be interrupted by God's decision to take the life he gave. Instead of saying, "Tomorrow we will do such and such . . . you ought to say, `If the Lord wills, we shall live and we shall do this or that'" (James 4:15). Thus the saints in Caesarea, when they could not dissuade Paul from taking the risk to go to Jerusalem " ceased and said, 'The will of the Lord be done'" (Acts 21:14). God would decide whether Paul would be killed or not, just as James said.

This sense of living in the hands of God, right down to the details of life was not new for the early Christians. They knew it already from the whole history of Israel, but especially from their wisdom literature. "The plans of the mind belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord" (Proverbs 16:1). "A man's mind plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps" (Proverbs 16:9). "Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the LORD that will be established" (Proverbs 19:21). "The lot is cast into the lap, but the decision is wholly from the LORD" (Proverbs 16:33). "I know, O LORD, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps" (Jeremiah 10:23). Jesus had no quarrel with this sense of living in the hand of God. If anything, he intensified the idea with words like Matthew 10:29, "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from you Father."

This confidence that the details of life were in the control of God every day was rooted in numerous prophetic expressions of God's unstoppable, unthwartable sovereign purpose. "Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose'" (Isaiah 46:9-10; cf. 43:13). "all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing; and he does according to his will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, 'What doest thou?'" (Daniel 4:35). "I know that thou canst do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted" (Job 42:2). "Our God is in the heavens; he does whatever he pleases" (Psalm 115:3).

One of the most precious implications of this confidence in God's inviolable sovereign will is that it provides the foundation of the "new covenant" hope for the holiness without which we will not see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). In the old covenant the law was written on stone and brought death when it met with the resistance of unrenewed hearts. But the new covenant promise is that God will not let his purposes for a holy people shipwreck on the weakness of human will. Instead he promises to do what needs to be done to make us what we ought to be. "And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live" (Deuteronomy 30:6). "I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances" (Ezekiel 36:27). "I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them; and I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me" (Jeremiah 32:40). "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is at work in you to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:12-13).

In view of all these texts I am unable to grasp what Forster and Marston might mean by saying, "Nothing in Scripture suggests that there is some kind of will or plan of God which is inviolable" (see note 26). Nor can I understand how Fritz Guy can say that the "will of God" is always a desiring and intending but not a sovereign, effective willing (see note 12). Rather the Scriptures lead us again and again to affirm that God's will is sometimes spoken of as an expression of his moral standards for human behavior and sometimes as an expression of his sovereign control even over acts which are contrary to that standard.

This means that the distinction between terms like "will of decree" and "will of command" or "sovereign will" and "moral will" is not an artificial distinction demanded by Calvinistic theology. The terms are an effort to describe the whole of biblical revelation. They are an effort to say Yes to all of the Bible and not silence any of it. They are a way to say Yes to the universal, saving will of 1 Timothy 2:4 and Yes to the individual unconditional election of Romans 9:6-23.

Does It Make Sense?
I turn now to the task of reflecting on how these two wills of God fit together and make sense -- as far this finite and fallible creature can rise to that challenge.

The first thing to affirm in view of all these texts is that God does not sin. "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts, the whole earth is full of his glory." (Isaiah 6:3). "God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself does not tempt anyone" (James 1:13). In ordering all things, including sinful acts, God is not sinning. For as Jonathan Edwards says, "It implies no contradiction to suppose that an act may be an evil act, and yet that it is a good thing that such an act should come to pass. . . As for instance, it might be an evil thing to crucify Christ, but yet it was a good thing that the crucifying of Christ came to pass." In other words the Scriptures lead us to the insight that God can will that a sinful act come to pass without willing it as an act of sin in himself.

Edwards points out that Arminians, it seems, must come to a similar conclusion.

All must own that God sometimes wills not to hinder the breach of his own commands, because he does not in fact hinder it . . . But you will say, God wills to permit sin, as he wills the creature should be left to his freedom; and if he should hinder it, he would offer violence to the nature of his own creature. I answer, this comes nevertheless to the very same thing that I say. You say, God does not will sin absolutely; but rather than alter the law of nature and the nature of free agents, he wills it. He wills what is contrary to excellency in some particulars, for the sake of a more general excellency and order. So that the scheme of the Arminians does not help the matter.

This seems right to me, and it can be illustrated again by reflecting directly on 1 Timothy 2:4 where Paul says that God wills all persons to be saved. What are we do say of the fact that God wills something that in fact does not happen. There are two possibilities as far as I can see. One is that there is a power in the universe greater than God's which is frustrating him by overruling what he wills. Neither Calvinist nor Arminian affirms this.

The other possibility is that God wills not to save all, even though he is willing to save all, because there is something else that he wills more, which would be lost if he exerted his sovereign power to save all. This is the solution that I as a Calvinist affirm along with Arminians. In other words both Calvinists and Arminians affirm two wills in God when they ponder deeply over 1 Timothy 2:4. Both can say that God wills for all to be saved. But then when queried why all are not saved both Calvinist and Arminian answer that God is committed to something even more valuable than saving all.

The difference between Calvinists and Arminians lies not in whether there are two wills in God, but in what they say this higher commitment is. What does God will more than saving all? The answer given by Arminians is that human self-determination and the possible resulting love relationship with God are more valuable than saving all people by sovereign, efficacious grace. The answer given by Calvinists is that the greater value is the manifestation of the full range of God's glory in wrath and mercy (Romans 9:22-23) and the humbling of man so that he enjoys giving all credit to God for his salvation (1 Corinthians 1:29).


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This is utterly crucial to see, for what it implies is that 1 Timothy 2:4 does not settle the momentous issue of God's higher commitment which restrains him from saving all. There is no mention here of free will. Nor is there mention of sovereign, prevenient, efficacious grace. If all we had was this text we could only guess what restrains God from saving all. When free will is found in this verse it is a philosophical, metaphysical assumption not an exegetical conclusion. The assumption is that if God wills in one sense for all to be saved, then he cannot in another sense will that only some be saved. That assumption is not in the text, nor is it demanded by logic, nor is it taught in the rest of Scripture. Therefore 1 Timothy 2:4 does not settle the issue; it creates it. Both Arminians and Calvinists must look elsewhere to answer whether the gift of human self-determination or the glory of divine sovereignty is the reality that restrains God's will to save all people.
The Calvinists which I admire do not claim to have simple, easy solutions to complex Biblical tensions. When their writing is difficult this is because the Scriptures are difficult (as the apostle Peter admitted that, in part, they are, 2 Peter 3:16). These Calvinists are struggling to be faithful to diverse (but not contradictory) scriptures. Both Calvinists and Arminians feel at times that the ridicule directed against their complex expositions are in fact a ridicule against the complexity of the scriptures.

I find the effort of Stephen Charnock (1628-1680), a chaplain to Henry Cromwell and non-conformist pastor in London, to be balanced and helpful in holding the diverse scriptures on God's will together.

God doth not will [sin] directly, and by an efficacious will. He doth not directly will it, because he hath prohibited it by his law, which is a discovery of his will; so that if he should directly will sin, and directly prohibit it, he would will good and evil in the same manner, and there would be contradictions in God's will: to will sin absolutely, is to work it (Psalm 115:3): "God hath done whatsoever he pleased." God cannot absolutely will it, because he cannot work it. God wills good by a positive decree, because he hath decreed to effect it. He wills evil by a private decree, because he hath decreed not to give that grace which would certainly prevent it. God doth not will sin simply, for that were to approve it, but he wills it, in order to that good his wisdom will bring forth from it. He wills not sin for itself, but for the event.

Similarly Jonathan Edwards, writing about 80 years later comes to similar conclusions with somewhat different terminology.

When a distinction is made between God's revealed will and his secret will, or his will of command and decree, "will" is certainly in that distinction taken in two senses. His will of decree, is not his will in the same sense as his will of command is. Therefore, it is no difficulty at all to suppose, that the one may be otherwise than the other: his will in both senses is his inclination. But when we say he wills virtue, or loves virtue, or the happiness of his creature; thereby is intended, that virtue, or the creature's happiness, absolutely and simply considered, is agreeable to the inclination of his nature.

His will of decree is, his inclination to a thing, not as to that thing absolutely and simply, but with respect to the universality of things, that have been, are or shall be. So God, though he hates a thing as it is simply, may incline to it with reference to the universality of things. Though he hates sin in itself, yet he may will to permit it, for the greater promotion of holiness in this universality, including all things, and at all times. So, though he has no inclination to a creature's misery, considered absolutely, yet he may will it, for the greater promotion of happiness in this universality.

Putting it in my own words, Edwards said that the infinite complexity of the divine mind is such that God has the capacity to look at the world through two lenses. He can look through a narrow lens or through a wide-angle lens. When God looks at a painful or wicked event through his narrow lens, he sees the tragedy or the sin for what it is in itself and he is angered and grieved. "I do not delight in the death of anyone, says the Lord God" (Ezekiel 18:32). But when God looks at a painful or wicked event through his wide-angle lens, he sees the tragedy or the sin in relation to everything leading up to it and everything flowing out from it. He sees it in all the connections and effects that form a pattern or mosaic stretching into eternity. This mosaic, with all its (good and evil) parts he does delight in (Psalm 115:3).

God's emotional life is infinitely complex beyond our ability to fully comprehend. For example, who can comprehend that the Lord hears in one moment of time the prayers of ten million Christians around the world, and sympathizes with each one personally and individually like a caring Father (as Hebrews 4:15 says he will), even though among those ten million prayers some are broken-hearted and some are bursting with joy? How can God weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice when they are both coming to him at the same time -- in fact are always coming to him with no break at all?

Or who can comprehend that God is angry at the sin of the world every day (Psalm 7:11), and yet every day, every moment, he is rejoicing with tremendous joy because somewhere in the world a sinner is repenting (Luke 15:7,10,23)? Who can comprehend that God continually burns with hot anger at the rebellion of the wicked, grieves over the unholy speech of his people (Ephesians 4:29-30), yet takes pleasure in them daily (Psalm 149:4), and ceaselessly makes merry over penitent prodigals who come home?

Who of us could say what complex of emotions is not possible for God? All we have to go on here is what he has chosen to tell us in the Bible. And what he has told us is that there is a sense in which he does not experience pleasure in the judgment of the wicked, and there is a sense in which he does.

Therefore we should not stumble over the fact that God does and does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked. When Moses warns Israel that the Lord will take delight in bringing ruin upon them and destroying them if they do not repent (Deuteronomy 28:63), he means that those who have rebelled against the Lord and moved beyond repentance will not be able to gloat that they have made the Almighty miserable. God is not defeated in the triumphs of his righteous judgment. Quite the contrary. Moses says that when they are judged they will unwittingly provide an occasion for God to rejoice in the demonstration of his justice and his power and the infinite worth of his glory (Romans 9:22-23).

When God took counsel with himself as to whether he should save all people, he consulted not only the truth of what he sees when looking through the narrow lens but also the larger truth of what he sees when all things are viewed through the wide-angle lens of his all-knowing wisdom. If, as Calvinists say, God deems it wise and good to elect unconditionally some to salvation and not others, one may legitimately ask whether the offer of salvation to all is genuine. Is it made with heart? Does it come from real compassion? Is the willing that none perish a bona fide willing of love?

The way I would give an account of this is explained by Robert L. Dabney in an essay written over a hundred years ago. His treatment is very detailed and answers many objections that go beyond the limits of this chapter. I will simply give the essence of his solution which seems to me to be on the right track, though he, as well as I, would admit we do not "furnish an exhaustive explanation of this mystery of the divine will."

Dabney uses an analogy from the life of George Washington taken from Chief-Justice Marshall's Life of Washington. A certain Major André had jeopardized the safety of the young nation through "rash and unfortunate" treasonous acts. Marshall says of the death warrant, signed by Washington, "Perhaps on no occasion of his life did the commander-in-chief obey with more reluctance the stern mandates of duty and of policy." Dabney observes that Washington's compassion for André was "real and profound". He also had "plenary power to kill or to save alive." Why then did he sign the death warrant? Dabney explains, "Washington's volition to sign the death-warrant of André did not arise from the fact that his compassion was slight or feigned, but from the fact that it was rationally counterpoised by a complex of superior judgments . . . of wisdom, duty, patriotism, and moral indignation [the wide-angle lens]."

Dabney imagines a defender of André, hearing Washington say, "I do this with the deepest reluctance and pity." Then the defender says, "Since you are supreme in this matter, and have full bodily ability to throw down that pen, we shall know by your signing this warrant that your pity is hypocritical." Dabney responds to this by saying, "The petulance of this charge would have been equal to its folly. The pity was real, but was restrained by superior elements of motive. Washington had official and bodily power to discharge the criminal, but he had not the sanctions of his own wisdom and justice." The corresponding point in the case of divine election is that "the absence of volition in God to save does not necessarily imply the absence of compassion." God has "a true compassion, which is yet restrained, in the case of the . . . non-elect, by consistent and holy reasons, from taking the form of a volition to regenerate." God's infinite wisdom regulates his whole will and guides and harmonizes (not suppresses) all its active principles."

In other words, God has a real and deep compassion for perishing sinners. Jeremiah points to this reality in God's heart. In Lamentations 3:32-33 he speaks of the judgment that God has brought upon Jerusalem: "Though he causes grief, he will have compassion according to the abundance of his steadfast love; for he does not willingly afflict or grieve the sons of men." The word "willingly" translates a composite Hebrew word (milibo) which means literally "from his heart" (cf. 1 Kings 12:33). It appears that this is Jeremiah's way of saying that God does will the affliction that he caused, but he does not will it in the same way he wills compassion. The affliction did not come "from his heart." Jeremiah was trying, as we are, to come to terms with the way a sovereign God wills two different things, affliction and compassion.

God's expression of pity and his entreaties have heart in them. There is a genuine inclination in God's heart to spare those who have committed treason against his kingdom. But his motivation is complex, and not every true element in it rises to the level of effective choice. In his great and mysterious heart there are kinds of longings and desires that are real -- they tell us something true about his character. Yet not all of these longings govern God's actions. He is governed by the depth of his wisdom expressed through a plan that no ordinary human deliberation would ever conceive (Romans 11:33-36; 1 Corinthians 2:9). There are holy and just reasons for why the affections of God's heart have the nature and intensity and proportion that they do.

Dabney is aware that several kinds of objections can be raised against the analogy of George Washington as it is applied to God. He admits that "no analogy can be perfect between the actions of a finite and the infinite intelligence and will." Yet I think he is right to say that the objections do not overthrow the essential truth that there can be, in a noble and great heart (even a divine heart), sincere compassion for a criminal that is nevertheless not set free.

Therefore I affirm with John 3:16 and 1 Timothy 2:4 that God loves the world with a deep compassion that desires the salvation of all men. Yet I also affirm that God has chosen from before the foundation of the world whom he will save from sin. Since not all people are saved we must choose whether we believe (with the Arminians) that God's will to save all people is restrained by his commitment to human self-determination or whether we believe (with the Calvinists) that God's will to save all people is restrained by his commitment to the glorification of his sovereign grace (Ephesians 1:6,12,14; Romans 9:22-23).

This decision should not be made on the basis of metaphysical assumptions about what we think human accountability requires. It should be made on the basis of what the scriptures teach. I do not find in the Bible that human beings have the ultimate power of self-determination. As far as I can tell it is a philosophical inference based on metaphysical presuppositions. On the other hand this book aims to show that the sovereignty of God's grace in salvation is taught in Scripture.

My contribution has simply been to show that God's will for all people to be saved is not at odds with the sovereignty of God's grace in election. That is, my answer to the above question about what restrains God's will to save all people is his supreme commitment to uphold and display the full range of his glory through the sovereign demonstration of his wrath and mercy for the enjoyment of his elect and believing people from every tribe and tongue and nation.


the link :http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/2wills.html

[blitzkreig]

Originally posted by GloryBound
I've been struggling with this issue myself recently. I was always taught "extreme" free will, as you say. And I believed it. But when I consider the extreme effort God put into seeing to it that I was saved, I do have to think about WHY?

I've mentioned this before, so I'll be brief. My grandparents, parents, aunts and uncles all are/were saved. We had family devotions twice daily all my childhood. I knew the Bible extremely well, and memorized many whole chapters. And I was saved at age five. Enough blessings to make some quite envious.

But satan had plans for me. Big plans. Major plans. I won't say what I was offered, but some would kill to get what was going to be handed to me on a silver platter. But because of my background, and the fact that I was already saved and loved God with my whole heart, and knew sound doctrine and memorized the scriptures I needed to quote, I was able to say "no" and say why. And I've had to put up with huge satanic attacks since.

Obviously God never intended for this thing to happen. Psalm 33:10 says: "The LORD bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought: he maketh the devices of the people of none effect." So he wanted me specificly to be saved. So was I predestined?

The predestination people speak of "irresistable grace" I always thought it was my choice, although I cannot understand why anyone would ever resist salvation.

The way I see it now is that God gave me the grace to endure what I needed to in order to be saved. And someone else may never be tempted in the same way, so may need something different. I think it WAS my choice, but God made it easy for me. VERY easy.

So I don't have the answer. I STILL believe that Jesus died for "whosoever believeth on Him". But when the calvinists on Sky Angel tell me I was chosen, I just want to cry, I feel SOOOO GOOD.

There is a song we used to sing "We'll understand it better by and by". I"ll just believe that. I rarely quote whole posts but this one got me. This is my story. Exactly. Satan had such plans for me that I have come to the realization that I am so bad that it had to be by Grace alone. Totally. No assistance from me what so ever no way no how. None. So if it is by Grace alone... why does God drag some of us over the rocks when He has so obviously chose us out in the first place? Like the answer to so many things GloryBound... to His Glory. I just have to accept that. I revel in the fact of His having chosen me. For that I am literally eternally grateful. Amen.

[Ponderin]

Hey everyone! There is alot of good information here already, I know.

Here is a little more

On Predestination (http://www.geocities.com/sapientgirl2002/Predestination.html) if anyone wants to take a look at it, again.



Aside from that I must add:


I rarely quote whole posts but this one got me. This is my story. Exactly. Satan had such plans for me that I have come to the realization that I am so bad that it had to be by Grace alone. Totally. No assistance from me what so ever no way no how. None. So if it is by Grace alone... why does God drag some of us over the rocks when He has so obviously chose us out in the first place? Like the answer to so many things GloryBound... to His Glory. I just have to accept that. I revel in the fact of His having chosen me. For that I am literally eternally grateful. Amen.




Amen to that blitzkreig! I can fully appreciate and understand your conviction!

I posted that article over on another forum, Daystar I believe it was, once and next thing you know a whole slew of "We are all Gods children" folk got all bent out of shape. Twisters, I tell ya, twisters . . . However, thinking back, the article must have popped me right where I live for me to have posted it, they usually do.


Good stuff!








:wave

[Average Joey]

What we do "free will"

What we do "God`s will"

From our perspective it is our own free will.

By God`s true perspective His will.

Our will is what made us(Adam and Eve) rebel in the first place.Of course that is because we THINK it is of our own free will.When in reality it is for the fullfillment of God`s ultimate plan for redemption of our fallen race.

Has anybody ever thought about this?That we will be singing songs in Heaven that angels cannot utter.We`ll be singing songs of redemption.Well we do already in fact.