The moment we die

[Joyfilly]

This has been on my mind lately and would like to see what some of my brothers and sisters have to say. We all know the verse - 2Cr 5:8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
This verse, I have always been taught all my life means just what it says, that at the moment of death we go to be with Jesus. I lost a baby at six weeks old and this verse has been so comforting to me as I picture Jesus right now holding him. Well, what is confusing me are these verses:

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

So does this mean that basically until the resurection we are nothings, not aware of anything spirtually? Are we literally asleep until we are resurrected, only then to be made aware of being with The Lord?? If so, I don't like that idea!! I pray in my heart that the moment my heart stops beating I will look immediately at Jesus' face!!! I hope I'm not confusing anyone! I look forward to seeing what some of you guys have to say. God Bless Joy

[blitzkreig]

from John Gill:

but the dead know not anything; this is not to be understood of their separate spirits, and of the things of the other world; for the righteous dead know much, their knowledge is greatly increased; they know, as they are known; they know much of God in Christ, of his perfections, purposes, covenant, grace, and love; they know much of Christ, of his person, offices, and glory, and see him as he is; they know much of the Gospel, and the mysteries of it; and of angels, and the spirits of just men, they now converse with; and of the glories and happiness of the heavenly state; even they know abundantly more than they did in this life: and the wicked dead, in their separate spirits, know there is a God that judgeth; that their souls are immortal; that there is a future state; indeed they know and feel the torments of hell, the worm that never dies, and the fire that is not quenched: but this is to be interpreted of their bodily senses now extinct, and of worldly things they have now nothing to do with; they know not any thing that is done in this world, nor how it fares with their children and friends they have left behind them; see Job_14:21;

[My Abba's Child]

Originally posted by Joyfilly
This has been on my mind lately and would like to see what some of my brothers and sisters have to say. We all know the verse - 2Cr 5:8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
This verse, I have always been taught all my life means just what it says, that at the moment of death we go to be with Jesus. I lost a baby at six weeks old and this verse has been so comforting to me as I picture Jesus right now holding him. Well, what is confusing me are these verses:

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

So does this mean that basically until the resurection we are nothings, not aware of anything spirtually? Are we literally asleep until we are resurrected, only then to be made aware of being with The Lord?? If so, I don't like that idea!! I pray in my heart that the moment my heart stops beating I will look immediately at Jesus' face!!! I hope I'm not confusing anyone! I look forward to seeing what some of you guys have to say. God Bless Joy

I'm not sure about this... but Ecc may have been how it was in Old Testament times before Jesus came. BUT, Paul tells us that to be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord. So, obviously things are different now! How AWESOME is our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus!? Paul also said that he would RATHER be absent from the body, but for the sake of those he was teaching, he would stay... something like that... paraphrased horribly, I'm sure. :laugh So, I'd say you can feel VERY safe that your precious little one is cooing and smiling at Jesus at this VERY moment! :D: Well, I don't KNOW that babies who die stay babies... but, it's pretty safe to say that your child is where WE all long to be... with Jesus! :D:

In His love,

[My Abba's Child]

Originally posted by Joyfilly
This has been on my mind lately and would like to see what some of my brothers and sisters have to say. We all know the verse - 2Cr 5:8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
This verse, I have always been taught all my life means just what it says, that at the moment of death we go to be with Jesus. I lost a baby at six weeks old and this verse has been so comforting to me as I picture Jesus right now holding him. Well, what is confusing me are these verses:

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

So does this mean that basically until the resurection we are nothings, not aware of anything spirtually? Are we literally asleep until we are resurrected, only then to be made aware of being with The Lord?? If so, I don't like that idea!! I pray in my heart that the moment my heart stops beating I will look immediately at Jesus' face!!! I hope I'm not confusing anyone! I look forward to seeing what some of you guys have to say. God Bless Joy

[Teresa]

I'm also very interested in this subject. My mom and I have debated for years on if we go straight to the Lord or do we sleep until Resurection. She believes that we sleep and I hate that idea. So I would be interested in hearing some hard scripture facts to prove one way or the other.

[Mindenite]

Say Jesus does not return for another 1000 years. Is a 1000 year "sleep" everlasting life? Doesn't sound like it to me. Everlasting life seems to mean that the instant you die, you are still alive and the only way that can happen is by being with the Lord.

[Patty T]

Originally posted by Teresa
I'm also very interested in this subject. My mom and I have debated for years on if we go straight to the Lord or do we sleep until Resurection. She believes that we sleep and I hate that idea. So I would be interested in hearing some hard scripture facts to prove one way or the other.

Your mom may be taking the word "sleep" as literal in all verses. There are some translations which use the word sleep, but the meaning is actually "die" or "dead". Like when Paul was talking about the mystery in 1 Corin 15:51, he says "we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed..." The greek is (2837) koimao - from 2749; to put to sleep, to slumber; fig. to decease; -- sleep, be dead. In other words, we will not all die, but we will all be changed.

When Jesus was on the cross talking to the one thief, He told the guy that "today"he'd be with Him in paradise. Doesn't sound like sleep to me.

I believe when people die, based upon their choice, right now they are either in heaven or hell. To be absent from the body (for believers) is to be present with the Lord. I don't believe this has anything to do with "sleeping", but means exactly what it says - present with the Lord. Eventually those who are currently in hell will go to the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

God Bless,

Patty

[bigbill52a]

Sometimes poetic expression helps to understand.

There is no entrance or exit from eternity. If your name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world, bloodwashed and redeemed from the earth, predestined, called, chosen, sanctified by God's Sovereign Grace, you awake into eternity and realize that you never really left. I once had a vision that while I was singing in tongues on earth, I was also singing the Song of the Lamb around the throne of God. When it happened, I thought that it was a vision of the future, maybe of the rapture, but as the years have gone by here on earth, I have come to realize that it was a vision of the Present. When you are born again, you are born again into Eternity Present. When this life is over, you are there with Jesus, and it is as if you had never left. It is hard to express these things, since now we can only think in terms of time and our physical body, but our spirit can catch a glimpse. Sometimes, I have a felt a call so powerful that if it had lasted but a few seconds more, I would have left this life to answer it.

Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

[Joyfilly]

There is no entrance or exit from eternity. If your name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world, bloodwashed and redeemed from the earth, predestined, called, chosen, sanctified by God's Sovereign Grace, you awake into eternity and realize that you never really left. I once had a vision that while I was singing in tongues on earth, I was also singing the Song of the Lamb around the throne of God. When it happened, I thought that it was a vision of the future, maybe of the rapture, but as the years have gone by here on earth, I have come to realize that it was a vision of the Present. When you are born again, you are born again into Eternity Present. When this life is over, you are there with Jesus, and it is as if you had never left. It is hard to express these things, since now we can only think in terms of time and our physical body, but our spirit can catch a glimpse. Sometimes, I have a felt a call so powerful that if it had lasted but a few seconds more, I would have left this life to answer it.
Wow I am so surprised you have said this because I've also been thinking about this very same thing. As a matter of fact I prayed a little about it and asked The Lord if he could reveal if the thought I just had about being in heaven all this time, while living on this earth and not realizing it were just a silly thought. I'm glad I am not the only one who pondered this...who knows maybe there is some merit to the idea!

When Jesus was on the cross talking to the one thief, He told the guy that "today"he'd be with Him in paradise. Doesn't sound like sleep to me. I didn't think about that verse! It sounds just the way it was said!!! Thanks guys for all your replies, I really appreciate it!! :thumb

[Destiny]

We remain asleep in our graves until Jesus comes back to get us.

Look at 1 Thessalonians 4:16

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Look at it this way, the ones that have accepted Christ and have died before He comes back will get to see Him first. Just imagine how awesome it will be to awake from a deep sleep and boom, there is Jesus for you to see....makes me smile real big....:D:

Hope this helps.

[Joyfilly]

Originally posted by Destiny
We remain asleep in our graves until Jesus comes back to get us.

Look at 1 Thessalonians 4:16

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Look at it this way, the ones that have accepted Christ and have died before He comes back will get to see Him first. Just imagine how awesome it will be to awake from a deep sleep and boom, there is Jesus for you to see....makes me smile real big....:D:

Hope this helps. Yes this is the scripture I have been looking at but as someone else pointed out what about the thief on the cross who was promised to be with him "today" in paradise? This is what is stumping me.....oh well one day I suppose we will all find out huh? :B:

[cameron222]

The spirit seperates from the body at death and goes instantly to be with the Lord. The flesh and blood housing (body) returns to the dust of the Earth and has no consciousness of worldly things....sleeps, etc.

At the rapture, the dead bodies rise first, and those who are alive and remain are "caught up." Then the bodies are changed to the glorified body that never perishes and lives for all eternity.

We are a three part being (body-soul-spirit). The old testament writer was likely talking about the flesh and blood bodies.

Remember the story of the man in Abraham's bosom in the New Testament where he pleaded that his brothers be spared from the stuff he was suffering? He was very aware of his surroundings, though his flesh and blood body was dead.

[cameron222]

Luke chpt 16:
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[3] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

[Teresa]

Cameron yesterday while on the phone to my mom I brought up the rich man and Lazarus. She says that it is a parable.
I really want to believe that our spirits go straight to the Lord and not sleep until resurection. Help me to convince my mom of this.

[cameron222]

I was once told that parables do not refer to actual people like the story of Lazarus does.

And even if it is a parable it is still based on truths and point out an example....in this story the truth is that people in the hereafter are aware of their condition.

Paul also had an "experience" in which he did not know if he was in or out of the body and heard words that he was not allowed to repeat.

Stephen was stoned and looked up and saw the son of man .....standing.

I believe that people who think death is a trip out of any and all existence until the resurrection are basing their belief on what happens to the "physical" flesh and blood body. That part of us does die....or sleep. But the spirit that is within us goes to heaven if one is saved by the blood of Jesus.

Jesus told the thief on the cross that...... this day thou shalt be with me in paradise. I'm sure the thief's body was buried after he died, but the essence of who he was, his spirit, went to paradise.

There is also an abundance of people who have had NDEs (near death experiences) and have seen themselves seperated from their bodies.

Dr. Maurice Rawlings, a cardiologist from Chattanooga, Tennessee, has written a book about NDEs from information he has collected as he revived people with CPR and not all of the people who died had pleasant experiences. Some saw flames and grotesque figures and were frightened, and some were soothed and moved toward the light.

God bless you in soothing your mom on this issue. If she knows Jesus, she will be with Him instantly when she dies while here fleshly body sleeps until the resurrection.

[cameron222]

II COrinthians 12:
1I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows. 3And I know that this man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows-- 4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. 5I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses.

[cameron222]

Acts chpt. 07:
54When they heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56"Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
57At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.
59While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep.

Notice in vs. 59 Stephen asked the Lord to "receive my spirit", and it vs. 60 it says that "he fell asleep." Two seperate events.

The spirit went to heaven to be with the Lord.....while the bodly went to sleep.