Is it gay people that bothers you, or just that they lead public lives? Part deux

[blitzkreig]

Let's keep it friendly :):

This was a good topic and I was learning... so I will repost my last post and would like comments / suggestions...

I am saddened by Homosexuality. Yes they are certainly sinners. But seriously why to they have a need to interfere with my rights? I must have some kind of rights don't I that I don't have to have this awful sin front and center on every TV show. On the top of every newscast. Constantly in front of Parliament squeezing my right of speech into a corner.

The National Association of Evangelical Churches in Canada have a great concern that they will be restricted in what is said from the pulpit. Remember we in Canada have NO real right of "free speech" (the way it is in the USA). The Canadian fear is that Churches must actually perform the marriages because if a gay applicant for work shows up right NOW when the Church needs a receptionist the gay person if not hired can sue for discrimination so why not?. Has happened and does happen. Do a google search on "Vriend v. Alberta" and check out the court reports. The Church School was sued and lost...

It doesn't take a prophet to see where this is going. We in Canada are certainly on the fast track. Gay members of Parliament are single issue candidates and their agenda is pretty obscene. Yes they want to lower the age of consent to 12 years old.

No. We should not reject the homosexual sinner... but the sin I just wish they would leave out on the curb. So yes in answer to the topic of the post... does it bother me that they lead public lives yes indeed it certainly does.

[Scribe]

Dude, the last thread got hijacked, this one will too.

But I do think the last thread proved my point, both sides are pushing agendas, and it's the pot calling the kettle black for one side to point that out.

[Christine]

Scribe, seems to me that what you are describing is Moral Relativism -- the belief that there should be no standards.

What would you say if someone came out and said, "I am a thief. I steal. This is what I do, and this is how I was born. Don't tell me I am doing something wrong, but embrace and enable me to continue"?

In a world with no standard, anarchy rules. We live in a fallen world, and each of us has our thorn in the side -- so how do you go about picking and choosing which things we should ignore, and which ones we should address?

[Indiana Janz]

:tape

[CamelPower]

Taking Christine's allusions further:

What if theft was the operative sin? Several theives say, "God can work through me, even as a thief." These thieves go out and organize the First Thieves Church. It just goes from bad to worse. First Murderers' Church. Adulterers' Fellowship.

The whole idea of churches that excuse their particular socially unacceptable sin is too weird for thought if we take it to their logical conclusion.

[blitzkreig]

Humanistic Secularism is by definition Moral Relativism . There is no anchor (God's Moral Laws) from which to hang any form of ethics. I'm OK, Your OK. Nihilism is the end game.

I just finished watching a program examining that new book ... the title was something like "Christians Under Persecution?". The author said that Christians belief systems in the USA were under attack.

The lawyer he was discussing this with had a very different view. The upshot on his take was that a HUGE majority in the USA profess some form of Christian belief. Therefore there needs to be a form of correction injected into the system to balance things out. Akin to quota's for hiring minorities. There needs to be a certain number of Gay's hired for senior positions in Government, Education, etc.

When have gone from any form of morals to the politically correct ultra nonsense like this? We never even went past Go!

I'm all for them staying in the closet. I get up and turn off the TV when ever they come on. Some one stop me... I turning into my Dad :rofl

[Ponderin]

"Some one stop me... I turning into my Dad"

:heh

I think I am turning into Spurgeon. It is right that we should detest sin.

Christ first and last subject (http://www.ccel.org/s/spurgeon/sermons06/htm/xxx.htm)


True repentance consists of illumination, humiliation, detestation, and transformation. . . .

The third ingredient is detestation. The soul must go a step further than mere sorrow; it must come to hate sin, to hate the very shadow of it, to hate the house where once sin and it were boon companions, to hate the bed of pleasure and all its glittering tapestries, yea, to hate the very garments spotted with the flesh. There is no repentance where a man can talk lightly of sin, much less where he can speak tenderly and lovingly of it. When sin cometh to thee delicately, like Agag, saying, "Surely the bitterness of death is past," if thou hast true repentance it will rise like Samuel and hew thy Agag in pieces before the Lord. As long as thou harbourest one idol in thy heart, God will never dwell there. Thou must break not only the images of wood and of stone, but of silver and of gold; yea, the golden calf itself, which has been thy chief idolatry, must be ground in powder and mingled in the bitter water of penitence, and thou must be made to drink thereof. There is such a loathing of sin in the soul of the true penitent that he cannot bear its name. If you were to compel him to enter its palaces he would be wretched. A penitent cannot bear himself in the house of the profane. He feels as if the house must fall upon him. In the assembly of the wicked he would be like a dove in the midst of ravenous kites. As well may the sheep lick blood with the wolf, as well may the dove be comrade at the vulture's feast of carrion, as a penitent sinner revel in sin. Through infirmity he may slide into it, but through grace he will rise out of it and abhor even his clothes in which he has fallen into the ditch (Job 9:31). The sinner unrepentant, like the sow, wallows in the mire; but the penitent sinner, like the swallow, may sometimes dip his wings in the limpid pool of iniquity, but he is aloft again, twittering forth with the chattering of the swallow most pitiful words of penitence, for he grieves that he should have so debased himself and sinned against his God. My hearer, if thou dost not so hate thy sins as to be ready to give them all up—if thou art not willing now to hang them on Haman's gallows a hundred and twenty cubits high—if thou canst not shake them off from thee as Paul did the viper from his hand, and shake it into the fire with detestation, then, I say, thou knowest not the grace of God in truth; for if thou lovest sin thou lovest neither God nor thyself, but thou choosest thine own damnation. Thou art in friendship with death and in league with hell; God deliver thee from this wretched state of heart, and bring thee to detest thy sin.

[blitzkreig]

Bill C-250 in Canada has passed and now speech or actions against "sexual-orientation" has joined "religion" and "race" (among others) as a "Hate Crime". It is punishable by large fine or prison term. Problem is, there is no definition of "sexual-orientation". None. Does that mean any orientation? Keep your pets indoors.

There is no defined disclaimer around "public religious speech". There is a defense for public religious speech but as there is no definition it will be a free-for-all. Is Leviticus 20 Hate speech? This forum may well be illegal in Canada. Right now. Canada has no "right to free speech" as has become known in the USA in their constitution. We grope around issues like the rights of speech and leave it up to the courts.

Who gets to interpret this mess? The courts. Politically appointed courts,... we do not elect judges in Canada. There will certainly be a "chilling effect" on matters when the first case is lodged and that will certainly be quickly.

[blitzkreig]

Ponderin my Dad was a lovable combination of Spurgeon and Archie Bunker. :faint

[DeeLeeKay]

Here is my belief about homosexuals and homosexuality.


Homosexuality is a sin, same as lots of other things. We are to reach out to them in love, rather then condemnation. Let them know it is a sin, and that there is a remedy for that sin, His name is JESUSCHRIST.

Having said that, I want to also say that we need to keep the church pure, by that I mean we need to put the unrepentant sinners out of the church. This includes those who have commited other types of sin. What about those people that are adulterers? What about those that try to divide the fellowship over silly doctrines? I am not saying that we should not divide the fellowship if necessary over important issues, such as the sexual immorality issue.

Can these people be restored to fellowship? Sure, but one thing we need to make clear is that this type of behavior in the church is different then it is outside the church.

We are to keep the fellowship pure, and need to restore our fellow brethern with love. If they refuse to repent then they need to leave. It really is that simple.

Then there are the ones who struggle with this issue and work sometimes for years to overcome this sin(we all have thorns in our flesh). I see nothing wrong with keeping those that are repentant, but keep falling.

If one is truely interested in becoming a disiple of Christ, they would agree that their actions are sins, (We have a few on this board). They deserve our support and prayer and everything we have to help them overcome their thorn.

It is that ones that claim it is ok to practice their sins, and that God does not judge them. These are the ones that need to be removed from amoung the fellowship.

So, here is what I believe the Bible teaches.

Keep the Fellowship pure by kicking out the ones who like living in their sins.

Support, protect and pray for the ones that want to overcome their sins

Reach out to the ones still lost in their sins.

This is a good rule of thumb for all sins.

[Ynott]

:thumb Donna!

I agree 1000%!

But while it is easy to determine who still wallows in his/her sin and he who abhors his/her sin....It is the "relativists" who give us the most trouble.

They subtly insert their pc beliefs (from the world) and can cause an entire church to crumble. There is ever the desire to "fit in" and "be accepted"...if only for our professed beliefs and those Christians who are not solidly grounded in the Word may stumble.

Until the churches return to true biblical teachings (actually studying the Bible!) and stop following church fads for growth (books about our lives as Christians), there will be a continued deterioration in our mainline churches....and continued misunderstandings among the brethren and misperceptions by the world.

If we cannot communicate clearly with our own, how can we explain God's position to the world?

While it is important to be able to identify sin, so that we may avoid it and all its temptations (to the best of our ability with help from the Holy Spirit). It is PARAMOUNT to love one another as Jesus loves us! This was the GREATEST (okay the "second" greatest ;):) commandment that Our Lord gave us.

Truly, good has become evil and evil good. We expect this "in the world". It must break God's heart to see this confusion among His Children. :(:

[ddlewis86]

John 9

41 Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.




Jesus sets the standard. I agree that a member of the faith should be "handed over to satan" so that he may realize his sin and come to repentance. Once they know the truth and know that Christ is who He says He is, they are no longer considered to be blind.

I also believe this to be true of ANYONE that professes they are familiar with Scripture. That is why I have a hard time treating MANY practicing homosexuals any differently than we should treat someone in the Church.

The Pharisees were not believers nor were they saved. Jesus did not pardon them from judgment because they "claimed" to know the truth. In fact he applied the same concept to them that Paul tells us to apply to those IN the Church.

That's the way I read and understand it anyway.

[Average Joey]

Here`s what bothers me about homosexuality.

1Cr 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

Most rejoice in their iniquity.Instead of confessing it as sin they profess it being good.

I`m not just talking about homosexuals either.

[ballfan]

Is it gay people that bothers you, or just that they lead public lives?


both. i wish they would just go away and someday they will. they are bad influences. totally corrupt.

romans 1 describes them.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


they make the choice. they don't want to worship god
first.

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,


they think they can do as they please and because others sin its somewhat ok.

they ignore what should be the real scary part.

God gave them over to a reprobate mind

god did that. its not up to us to retreive from that reprobate mind what god has given over to it. they are on their on. they will have to make the first step back themselves.


ballfan

[Jael]

Originally posted by DeeLeeKay
Here is my belief about homosexuals and homosexuality.


Homosexuality is a sin, same as lots of other things. We are to reach out to them in love, rather then condemnation. Let them know it is a sin, and that there is a remedy for that sin, His name is JESUSCHRIST.

Having said that, I want to also say that we need to keep the church pure, by that I mean we need to put the unrepentant sinners out of the church. This includes those who have commited other types of sin. What about those people that are adulterers? What about those that try to divide the fellowship over silly doctrines? I am not saying that we should not divide the fellowship if necessary over important issues, such as the sexual immorality issue.

Can these people be restored to fellowship? Sure, but one thing we need to make clear is that this type of behavior in the church is different then it is outside the church.

We are to keep the fellowship pure, and need to restore our fellow brethern with love. If they refuse to repent then they need to leave. It really is that simple.

Then there are the ones who struggle with this issue and work sometimes for years to overcome this sin(we all have thorns in our flesh). I see nothing wrong with keeping those that are repentant, but keep falling.

If one is truely interested in becoming a disiple of Christ, they would agree that their actions are sins, (We have a few on this board). They deserve our support and prayer and everything we have to help them overcome their thorn.

It is that ones that claim it is ok to practice their sins, and that God does not judge them. These are the ones that need to be removed from amoung the fellowship.

So, here is what I believe the Bible teaches.

Keep the Fellowship pure by kicking out the ones who like living in their sins.

Support, protect and pray for the ones that want to overcome their sins

Reach out to the ones still lost in their sins.

This is a good rule of thumb for all sins.

Great post, this is how I feel as well.

[Vickimac]

It bothers me very much that they lead "public" lives, that homosexuality is being popularized and accepted. It bothers me very much that our kids are growing up thinking of it as just an alternate lifestyle, that maybe it's "ok" to try it because it is the "in" thing. It bothers me very much that these "marriages" are being legalized.

It bothers me even more that they have churches for gays who mistakenly think that God will overlook something HE sees as an abomination. That there is no need to abstain because he just loves em anyway. And that gays are accepted into leadership roles in other churches. Yes, that bothers me! No, I do NOT support homosexuality in any form.

I just wanted to clarify that, because in my endeavor to point out that the only HOPE of a homosexual is the love of Jesus Christ, insinuations flew in the other thread that unless you vehemently stand against the person, you somehow support the sin. That is NOT true.

I don't think we are going to change anything (the world) at this point. The world is a cesspool of immorality and we are circling the drain. And judgement IS coming soon. The ONLY hope for these individuals is the love of Christ and unless they are being shown THAT, they are already condemned. Unless we reach out to them, we also condemn them. There IS a difference in condemning the sin & condemning the person.

We should hate the sin without hating the person. Because a person can be forgiven if they desire forgiveness. I'm not a re-born flower child of the 60's. I fully admit it is hard to separate the sin from the sinner. But somehow Jesus does that. Or every one of us would be condemned for OUR sin, whatever it is. So should we not follow him and try to do as he does? How do we do that, by beating them over the head, telling them they are vile and worthless?

I know of at least 3 on this board who have turned to God. And I know of one who refuses to believe God will not accept his gay lifestyle. :tsk But I'm sure there are more & I'm sure there are lurkers who come here to see what Christianity is about. What are we telling them?

Can we tell them that they are lost forever because this sin is seen as unforgivable? The goal is unattainable? Or do we tell them that WITH Christ ALL THINGS are possible? I fully believe the latter. He can separate us from our sin and he can help us OVERCOME our sin. And he is faithful to forgive our sin when we are willing to repent of it.

[Ponderin]

Originally posted by blitzkreig
Ponderin my Dad was a lovable combination of Spurgeon and Archie Bunker. :faint


Subsequently, I can only imagine your mother being a real saint.


:):

[Jael]

Originally posted by Vickimac
It bothers me very much that they lead "public" lives, that homosexuality is being popularized and accepted. It bothers me very much that our kids are growing up thinking of it as just an alternate lifestyle, that maybe it's "ok" to try it because it is the "in" thing. It bothers me very much that these "marriages" are being legalized.

Oh, you beat me to it! I was going to edit my post to say that we also have a duty to those who don't know the truth and may be lured into this sinful lifestyle...and that sometimes means resisting society's efforts to "normalize" what God calls abomination. Salt purifies and preserves, but it is sometimes abrasive...light clarifies and beautifies, but it's painful to eyes that are used to deep darkness. So, as salt and light, we cannot always go with the flow, if we are to stand against the slide of our culture into total immorality. But we can do that without hating, attacking, or demonizing homosexuals as people.

[ddlewis86]

Vickimac
I just wanted to clarify that, because in my endeavor to point out that the only HOPE of a homosexual is the love of Jesus Christ, insinuations flew in the other thread that unless you vehemently stand against the person, you somehow support the sin. That is NOT true.

I don't think we are going to change anything (the world) at this point. The world is a cesspool of immorality and we are circling the drain. And judgement IS coming soon. The ONLY hope for these individuals is the love of Christ and unless they are being shown THAT, they are already condemned. Unless we reach out to them, we also condemn them. There IS a difference in condemning the sin & condemning the person.



:thumb



I just want to clarify my position. I feel as if a few people MAY have misconstrued my feelings.


When I was younger I went through a period of drug use. What worked for my family was the "Tough Love" scenario. It helped me straighten my act up thus healing the entire family. I am a believer in "Tough Love". The Church is as well. That is why we believe in Church discipline.

Every sinner, regardless of his sin, is a descendant of Adam and Eve. That makes them part of our family of humanity. It is my wish, just as it is God's wish, that no one should perish.

I may have been abrasive in the previous thread. I apologize if that was the case. I believe that too many times, we as Christians, have been guilty of passively confronting the unsaved. I am not a "fire and brimstone" kinda guy by the way. :laugh I just feel that homosexuals, specifically, get treated all to often with "kid gloves" by society, as a whole, as well as the Church.

I have stated, in earlier posts, that I believe homosexuality is akin to drug abuse or alcoholism. I know what it means to be powerless over an addiction while standing ALONE to face it. I also believe that if not for the "tough love", shown to me by my family, I probably wouldn't be here today. :nod

When you read my posts I would like to ask that they be read with this thought pattern in mind. That is why many of my posts, in regard to this issue, are seen as accusatory and abrasive. To SOME extent they are meant to be that way.

I hope this clears the air a bit in regards to my stance on this particular issue.

God bless. :):
:wave

[katt]

so is fornication..

if both is done behind closed doors between two consenting adults..then the act is between the sinner and God..

Not me and the media..


Preachers should preach against all sin..not pick and choose..

Employers should hire and fire on merrit..not choice of lifestyle..the employer should also have conduct codes in thier expectations of how people are to behave on his time and in his building..

If crimes are committed then the sin committed is no longer between the sinner and God it becomes a social issue and the police take over..

There are rules of conduct expected in a civilized society..

because of all the PDA in our society..it is fast becoming barbareic and pagan..

It is not my personal business weather one is hetro or homo sexual..

I'd really appreciate it if the folks that choose the gay lifestyle would please keep it to themselves..just as I keep my lifestyle choices to myself..

When one chooses to push their lifestyle choices in my face..they make it my business and they shouldn't get offended when I push back..;):

[andy]

Sin, all sin separates us from God. What is so sad is that people who are in sin have believed a lie. The businessman who makes his career an idol, he has been seduced. The young person who believes that sex before marriage is ok, they are seduced. The thief justifies their theft. The drunkard doesn't think that he/she can live without alcohol. And on and on.

We are to confront sin in truth and with love. Just because we love the sinner, regardless of their particular sin, we should not sugarcoat the truth. Sin will kill you! Would you not stop a person from stepping infront of a speeding mac truck if it was in your power to do so. Of course you would.

I think sometimes the problem unbelievers have with christians is that we don't walk the talk. If, as stated in the original post, the people who witness to homosexuals, are involved in sin as in drunkeness and partying, then where is the light we are supposed to bring forth.

Let unbelievers see Jesus in us. Let them see how He has changed us from death to life. Let them see the hope we have in a Savior that accepts us as we are and that loves us enough not to leave us in the condition He found us in.

Be honest, be truthful, but be real. Sinners loved to be around Jesus. He accepted them, not their sin of course, but them. They saw His love, heard His voice, and received His touch. By His actions, His pureness, His love, they repented and changed. He did not compromise the truth, He is Truth, but they saw in Him the word and truth and love of a Holy God. They did not remain as they were.

Jesus is Lord. May He be our example, our standard, the hope we give to others. God bless.

Editied to state: I am not directing this post to anyone, except maybe to myself. I am guilty of the things I have posted against. God forgive me.

[BarbT]

I have watched the *homosexual rights propaganda machine* steamrolling over us for about 30 years now. I doubt if people know how slowly indoctrinated by this powerful agenda they have become. Even believers have fallen prey.

Jesus drew many to Him by His loving ways and message of forgiveness. But how many angry hordes plotted to stone Him because His message about sin hit a little too close to home?

The gay community has more to fear from Christians these days than any overt *hate* group. Like the culture around us, the church is growing soft and sentimental -- afraid to tell angry people the truth. We are going to kill many {eternally} with our self-serving kindness.

[Becky]

Originally posted by ballfan
both. i wish they would just go away and someday they will. they are bad influences. totally corrupt.

romans 1 describes them.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


they make the choice. they don't want to worship god
first.

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,


they think they can do as they please and because others sin its somewhat ok.

they ignore what should be the real scary part.

God gave them over to a reprobate mind

god did that. its not up to us to retreive from that reprobate mind what god has given over to it. they are on their on. they will have to make the first step back themselves.


ballfan Ballfan, these verses describe the consequensis of sin. But we are to reach out to everyone, no matter what the sin, and keep ahold of the truth of God. Spreading the Word. Do not give up on anyone. God Gave them up to reprobate minds in this verse. Paul attacks the flagrant idolatrly of most of the Gentile world at this time. They considered animals as gods and sexual perversion was prevalent. Sin in general was rampant.

Now read verse 32:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit shuch things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

So we see that they are bad and sinful.

Now look at the next verse: Romans Chapter 2:1-2

God's Righteous Judgment


The Fairness of God's Judgment
1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who "will render to each one according to his deeds":[1] 7eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.

God's Wrath results when grace is rejected. We need to reach these people. Some have come to know Christ as their Savior and leave the world of homosexuality. Others have heard but struggle. They need our help and they need God's Grace and Mercy. I know God has had Mercy on me. I am forever grateful.

Let's be Merciful and loving. Hate the sin and love the sinner.

[Grimlock Prime]

Originally posted by BarbT
The gay community has more to fear from Christians these days than any overt *hate* group. Like the culture around us, the church is growing soft and sentimental -- afraid to tell angry people the truth. We are going to kill many {eternally} with our self-serving kindness.

That is a very valid point. And I think that many of us that have been so vocal about this issue are addressing the Church's reactions (in this case that of this forum) to this current gay "fad", which is merely the latest in a string of sexual immoralties that have become the norm in our culture, and we aren't talking about how to witness to the gay community.

Maybe I'm wrong and the issues are so intertwined that they SHOULD be debated in the same breath, but the misunderstands so far seems to be the basis that some people are looking at this from two seperate issues and others are not.

[Vickimac]

ddlewis86 :kiss Thanks for explaining. I get just as passionate about many things myself. But we all need to keep in mind the others who may be reading our posts, something I don't always do myself. I am in complete agreement with you that we should never accept homosexuality as the "norm" or say that it acceptable to the kingdom of Christ. And yes, society is treating it as "just" an alternate lifestyle under the guise of not being bigoted, or "live & let live".:rolleyes (As they rush towards etenal death). Never meant I agreed with the way it is, I only wanted to point out that they are people too and God does want them to come to him, repentent and willing to change.

I have to try to ignore child abuse threads. I was sexually abused as a child and carried the scars for 30 yrs. Honestly, I have a hard time mustering up the same kind of compassion or desire to want to witness to a child molester or rapist or murderer, etc. So I try to stay out of the threads that evoke anger or pain in me (most of the time). Thankfully, there are folks who can do what I can't.

I do understand your feelings and the passion behind them and I do appreciate the explanation. :):

[ddlewis86]

Originally posted by Vickimac
ddlewis86 :kiss Thanks for explaining. I get just as passionate about many things myself. But we all need to keep in mind the others who may be reading our posts, something I don't always do myself. I am in complete agreement with you that we should never accept homosexuality as the "norm" or say that it acceptable to the kingdom of Christ. And yes, society is treating it as "just" an alternate lifestyle under the guise of not being bigoted, or "live & let live".:rolleyes (As they rush towards etenal death). Never meant I agreed with the way it is, I only wanted to point out that they are people too and God does want them to come to him, repentent and willing to change.

I have to try to ignore child abuse threads. I was sexually abused as a child and carried the scars for 30 yrs. Honestly, I have a hard time mustering up the same kind of compassion or desire to want to witness to a child molester or rapist or murderer, etc. So I try to stay out of the threads that evoke anger or pain in me (most of the time). Thankfully, there are folks who can do what I can't.

I do understand your feelings and the passion behind them and I do appreciate the explanation. :):


Thank you Vickimac. I am sorry to hear about your past. I can see how that can cause you pain in discussing those sorts of issues. Thank you for your post and I appreciate you response. :thumb


On a lighter note though.............

(As they rush towards etenal death)

whats an etenal death???

:laugh

;):

[Vickimac]

I'm not sure but I think that is what happens to men who point out a womans typo!


:fish :sigh :B:

[ddlewis86]

Originally posted by Vickimac
I'm not sure but I think that is what happens to men who point out a womans typo!


:fish :sigh :B:

:freaked







:pound

[Scribe]

I think this thread has proven my point that the Christian community wants the homosexuals to stop pushing their agenda so that Christians can push theirs.

Since the sermon on the mount Christians have been attempting to make the world over in their image. To "make the world christian," as it were.

At its core our religion says we need to convert as many people as we can to Christianity. You can try not calling that an agenda we're forcing on society but in reality that's what were doing.

Gay activists are also pushing an agenda on society as well, this is undisputed. To me it seems a bit hippocritical to call out one group as being evil for pushing an agenda when you are pushing one of your own.

In my experience if I had to use the political catch phrase "Pushing their agenda down my throats," I would have to say that appiles much more to Christianity then it does the gay rights agenda.

I live in the south, so I've lost track of how many times people ask me if I've been saved. Or tell me my baptism is forfit because I was an infant. Or harass me for different reasons.

Not once has the gay community ever made me feel uncomfortable by asking about my orientation, telling me I had to accept them, or telling me I have to "Substitute your own catch phrase here."

If I had to choose a group that was trying to forcefully shape society to it's will, it would have to be Christianity and Islam.

[ddlewis86]

Originally posted by Scribe
I think this thread has proven my point that the Christian community wants the homosexuals to stop pushing their agenda so that Christians can push theirs.

Since the sermon on the mount Christians have been attempting to make the world over in their image. To "make the world christian," as it were.

At its core our religion says we need to convert as many people as we can to Christianity. You can try not calling that an agenda we're forcing on society but in reality that's what were doing.

Gay activists are also pushing an agenda on society as well, this is undisputed. To me it seems a bit hippocritical to call out one group as being evil for pushing an agenda when you are pushing one of your own.

In my experience if I had to use the political catch phrase "Pushing their agenda down my throats," I would have to say that appiles much more to Christianity then it does the gay rights agenda.

I live in the south, so I've lost track of how many times people ask me if I've been saved. Or tell me my baptism is forfit because I was an infant. Or harass me for different reasons.

Not once has the gay community ever made me feel uncomfortable by asking about my orientation, telling me I had to accept them, or telling me I have to "Substitute your own catch phrase here."

If I had to choose a group that was trying to forcefully shape society to it's will, it would have to be Christianity and Islam.





Oh I wanna ................:tape Be nice! :):


Just an observation. I believe THIS particular thread is MUCH more civil than the last one. I think all would agree. Has the lack of civil unrest caused you to speak up and attempt to stir the pot again?

I think I will sit out this round. :nod

[Scribe]

Originally posted by ddlewis86
Has the lack of civil unrest caused you to speak up and attempt to stir the pot again?

No it's not, my point is that Christians have an agenda. What do you think the sermon on the mount was about if not Jesus telling the apostles to go and make believers of the world. If that's not an agenda fositered upon the world I don't know what is.

I'm not trying to be offensive, but my point is it's hippocritical for Christianity to criticize the homosexual movement for using the same tools they do.

[Mrs. Hoppes]

Originally posted by Scribe
No it's not, my point is that Christians have an agenda. What do you think the sermon on the mount was about if not Jesus telling the apostles to go and make believers of the world. If that's not an agenda fositered upon the world I don't know what is.

I'm not trying to be offensive, but my point is it's hippocritical for Christianity to criticize the homosexual movement for using the same tools they do.



Christians are being obedient to GOD. Who are homosexuals obeying?

[Vickimac]

The tape is not holding.......


Yes, we have an agenda, freely admitted, to save people from eteRnal hell. Push it down thier throats? WHO? We are Christians talking among Christians and those who choose to be here to listen. I've never attempted to cram my beliefs down anyones throat, so your accusation is hogwash. As the gay rights movement parades itself in our faces, the Christian movement is being stifled, and that's a fact. We are losing our rights to publicly worship, they are winning more & more rights on a daily basis, as the world hurtles to the end.

Hypocritical? Not IMO. The agenda pushed by the gay community as a whole is to normalize what is not and if I weren't a Christian, I still would not accept it as a lifestyle choice. It is also an agenda that leads to hell, like it or not, not idealogically, but truthfully.

Same tools? That is a joke.

It is funny that you sit back quietly while we all hammer out our intent behind typed words and NOW you are stirring the pot. Why?

[Scribe]

I'm not trying to start a bonfire, I really don't see why people get so wound up about this.

Sure you may not be cramming your religion down anyone's throat, but think about it from an outsider's perspective: Crosses are almost everywhere. there are at least three Christain only stations on my cable provider. Christian prayers are said before the start of Congress, Senate, and State assymbly session. Heck Georgia has a "Pastor of the day" who often gives a sermon. A good amount of my English classes are spent discussing classical christian works by christian authurs. Money has In God we Trust on it. There are exclusive organizations that only allow Christians. Mormons and baptists go door to door looking for converts.

How can you say there is not an indocrination in the culture aimed at converting people to Christianity? How can you say that as whole we are not forcing our religion down other people's throats?

To use your logic I have a gay friend who is very quiet about it, and has never forced his sexuality on anyone. Does that mean no homosexual "Forces their beliefs" down someone else's throat.

[John Tyson]

Grace and peace to you all.

Hi Scribe,

I don't know if you are saved or not. But I might ask you. There are agendas and there are agendas. Christians have an agenda, homosexual have an agenda, so did abolitionist and slavers, so does abortionists and anti-abortionists, so did the Nazis and the Allies, so did communism and democracies, so does free people and terrorist, so does the flesh and the spirit. There are tons of agendas. Some are good, some are bad. Would you call it hypocritical for the good agendas to oppose the bad agendas? Would you call it hypocritical to oppose what God opposes and calls bad? Does make me question...but, Paul said, that those who are outside the Church, God judges. Those in the Church, the saints are to judge (1 Cor 15). Within a democracy or republic such as the United States, the citizens are to judge what they want happening in their country. I choose to oppose the homosexual movement and promote Christian values through all democratic and spiritual means. It might make you uncomfortable--then again--it might not. You don't make me uncomfortable--I just think you are wrong.

In my extended family, one homosexual member died of AIDS and another has been in a monogamous homosexual relationship for the last 20 years. I wept for the one that died, I love the one that's living, maintain a warm relationship with him and his partner, and we respectfully know where each stands.

God bless,
John

[Grimlock Prime]

Originally posted by Mrs. Hoppes
Christians are being obedient to GOD. Who are homosexuals obeying?

Some people worship money. Others the accumulation of material possessions. Some put the need of an orgasm ahead of their eternal souls. Some want to feel superior to those around them, whether it's thru intellectual pursuits or that of their supposed faith.

I'm sorry that you feel persecuted Scribe. I really am. If strangers are judging you then you should ask them to remove the plank from their eye before concerning themselves with the spec in yours. However, if you have friends & family and others that GENUINELY love you asking about your faith, don't dismiss it based on the actions of others. They are likely truly concerned about your well being. And that does not limit itself to this world.

[ddlewis86]

Originally posted by Scribe
I'm not trying to start a bonfire, I really don't see why people get so wound up about this.




Yes.....you are throwing a match at it. :): You must be blind for not seeing why people get so wound up about this. :confused Oh wait. The Bible says something about being blind. :doh What was I thinking? :laugh



Sure you may not be cramming your religion down anyone's throat, but think about it from an outsider's perspective: Crosses are almost everywhere.



Yeah like hanging around the neck of Madonna? :rolleyes


there are at least three Christain only stations on my cable provider.


Out of HOW many available stations?? EEK!!! It's an epidemic! The Christians are coming!! The Christrians are coming!!



Christian prayers are said before the start of Congress, Senate, and State assymbly session. Heck Georgia has a "Pastor of the day" who often gives a sermon.



Just like they have been since the beginning. Before any of us were even born?



A good amount of my English classes are spent discussing classical christian works by christian authurs.


A persons faith should have absolutely nothing to do with his contribution to classical literature. The MORE classical it is, the more there is a chance the author IS a Christian. Are you offended by that?



Money has In God we Trust on it.


You mean just like it always has?



There are exclusive organizations that only allow Christians.




I can't think of one of these places..... Can you help me out with an example??



Mormons and baptists go door to door looking for converts.



:pound So do Kirby and Rainbow vacuum cleaner salesmen!

Have you "converted" from Kirby to Rainbow yet? :laugh



How can you say there is not an indocrination in the culture aimed at converting people to Christianity? How can you say that as whole we are not forcing our religion down other people's throats?



How you ask?? Like this>

There is not an indoctrination in this culture aimed at converting people to Christianity. "Converting" is not a Christian term in the first place. You cannot "convert" to the truth.

As a whole we are not forcing our religion down other people's throats.

There. See how easy that was? :):



To use your logic I have a gay friend who is very quiet about it, and has never forced his sexuality on anyone. Does that mean no homosexual "Forces their beliefs" down someone else's throat.


No.
Does EVERY Christian read the Bible?? :wacko

[pilgrimgal]

Everyone has made good points. I am very proud of the new and improved tone on this new improved thread:thumb

I'm not exactly sure what I can add, but I would like to echo this.
I do not want the homosexuals to "quit shoving their agenda down my throat so that I can shove my agenda down theirs." I simply do not want their agenda shoved down my throat PERIOD.
While it does not apply for all, the homosexual community has over the past several decades become more militant in pushing their agenda on the country- that includes same sex marriages, equivalent employment benefits as married straight couples (which straight couples living together w/o marriage are not entitled to) adoption by gay couples. I do not want to have it pushed at me because I do not believe in it in the least. Not so I can force God on them.

[ballfan]

We need to reach these people. Some have come to know Christ as their Savior and leave the world of homosexuality. Others have heard but struggle. They need our help and they need God's Grace and Mercy. I know God has had Mercy on me. I am forever grateful.


you can't reach these people. they have to take the first step back if they are able. its kind of like the parable of the man who had two sons found in luke 15. the one son had to decide on his own to return. the father did not take the first step. neither did his brother go looking for him. the first step had to be taken by the son who had rejected his father. but after that first step the father went out to meet him. the father is willing to let his son return. the brother erred in not doing the same. still it was required that the disobedient son take the first steps back. so we can help after they have taken the first step. until then they are on their own. if they never take that first step they will certainly find what the consequences are.

by the way. the verses from romans 1:18 until the end of the chapter describe those who have been given over to the reprobate mind. i'm not judgeing them. they have a judge as its pointed out very clearly in romans 1:32. i've just repeated what paul wrote.


ballfan

[ballfan]

I think this thread has proven my point that the Christian community wants the homosexuals to stop pushing their agenda so that Christians can push theirs.



i think thats close to correct. the christian community in general does want homosexuals to stop pushing their agenda. the homosexual agenda is an abomination.

the christian agenda will be advanced by believers regardless of the agendas of homosexuals and other perversions.

but then the christian agenda is not an abomination.

let us praise, worship, and thank god for providing us salvation through his son jesus christ.


ballfan

[FollowerofJesus]

Christianity is not a religion.

Love the sinner -Hate the sin.

This is how God has helped me deal w/ gay people.

[Ynott]

Agendas?

Not ours...But God's...and therein lies ALL THE DIFFERENCE!

Do not call it the "Christian agenda"...for that is an error. It is God's mandate.

Truly, "Thus sayeth the Lord"...

Man's Agenda or God's Mandate....

No contest.

Do not be suckered into politically correct dogma which seeks to "level the playing field" between God and man.

God levels the playing field.

[ballfan]

Originally posted by Ynott
Agendas?

Not ours...But God's...and therein lies ALL THE DIFFERENCE!

Do not call it the "Christian agenda"...for that is an error. It is God's mandate.

Truly, "Thus sayeth the Lord"...

Man's Agenda or God's Mandate....

No contest.

Do not be suckered into politically correct dogma which seeks to "level the playing field" between God and man.

God levels the playing field.


agenda is close enough as long as you understand what your agenda should be. the "christian agenda" is mankind accepting jesus as saviour and then be a witness for him in living your life.
the "agenda" is the list of things god has prepared for the believer to do.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


every individual believer has these works to walk in.


you can be sure homosexuality is not in the list.



ballfan

[Ynott]

Truly I disagree with you, ballfan.

Agenda IS the wrong word.

When you follow the law of the land, are you following an "agenda"? Or are you merely "obeying"?

Agendas are man-made.

Christianity has no "agenda".

We are simply in a relationship with Christ.

Using inappropriate adjectives to color an argument or to appear to "agree" with another is wrong.

When you walk on this planet, are you following the agenda of "gravity"?

Or is it simply a natural law?

Think about it.

Christianity does not "push an agenda". We are merely following Christ and behaving according to His Law which is written in our heart.

To call it otherwise is to presume that we "created" it. We did not.

It is a semantics game that "others" use to "level the playing field". It is an inappropriate use of the term "agenda".

It works for them because they do not know God. It should NOT work for a Christian .... because we DO.

[ballfan]

Truly I disagree with you, ballfan.

thats ok.

i still think agenda serves the purpose of this discussion.

We are simply in a relationship with Christ.

absolutely and thats what creates our agenda.

To call it otherwise is to presume that we "created" it. We did not.

no.

It is a semantics game that "others" use to "level the playing field". It is an inappropriate use of the term "agenda".

actually it appears you are playing the semantics game.


do you agree that homosexuality is an abomination before god and is thourghly condemmed in the bible?


ballfan

[ddlewis86]

Originally posted by ballfan
thats ok.

i still think agenda serves the purpose of this discussion.



absolutely and thats what creates our agenda.



no.



actually it appears you are playing the semantics game.


do you agree that homosexuality is an abomination before god and is thourghly condemmed in the bible?


ballfan


Hi ballfan :wave

If it makes you feel better, you COULD call it God's agenda. It is not man's agenda.

:):

[BigglesNC]

Scribe, if anyone understands where you are coming from, I do. However, I wouldn't call saying a prayer or having a pastor of the day "pushing an agenda".

As far as people protesting Matthew Sheppard's funeral with signs saying he is burning in hell... I would call that pushing an agenda.

I hope you understand what I am getting at.

[Ynott]

ballfan, if you would read the posts I have already posted, you would know the answer to that one.

It is interesting that you would try to "deflect" a poor defense with such a ruse.

Biggles, I would not call that an "agenda". I would call it poor behavior and UNchristian in its activity...much like the crusades were UNchristian, though they claimed otherwise.

Many things are "done in the name of" Christ, but are not Christian.

If they are pushing anything, I would say they are pushing the limits of sound thinking and good taste.

[Ynott]

My problem with this present turn of the discussion is in the use of "worldly" redefinitions, which were prevalent when Paul wrote his epistles and are ever present today.

As Christians, we need to be very aware of the subtle nuances and overt theft of terms used to describe us.

Some terms carry alot of baggage with them and are used so commonly that we come to accept them as the truth.

As with Islam meaning "peace" when it means "submission".

As in "agenda" when we mean Christ's path.

We must be very careful because these words creep into our consciousness and reduce God's place in our lives to a small corner totally defined in worldly redefined terms.

I know that many do not see it, but over time, I believe that you will.

Just as certain ethnic groups have re-defined their description due to inappropriate baggage that accrues to certain terms, so too should we be sensitive to derogatory or corrupted worldly terminology being applied to Christianity.

We cannot let the world define us. Christ is our definition. The Bible defines us. The Bible is not an "agenda", but the Holy Word of God.

Think about it. It DOES make a difference in the short AND the long run.

[ddlewis86]

Is there any such thing as a "sexorcism"? :confused

Does anyone want to be the first to carry the title of "sexorcist"?
:laugh

[ddlewis86]

oops

[magnolia]

Originally posted by Scribe
I think this thread has proven my point that the Christian community wants the homosexuals to stop pushing their agenda so that Christians can push theirs. I don't agree with your word choice. However, if Christians were "pushing an agenda" we don't need homosexuals to stop pushing their agenda before we witness etc.:):

"Pushing an agenda" sounds hostile. Some Christians are as such yes... but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater:):

[Scribe]

Couple of notes lewis, Yes, a persons faith has a great deal to do with their worldview, and hence their place in the literary cannon. The boy scouts only alow straight, God believing people to join. In God We Trust has only been on our cash since the 1950s.

[ddlewis86]

Originally posted by Scribe
Couple of notes lewis, Yes, a persons faith has a great deal to do with their worldview, and hence their place in the literary cannon. The boy scouts only alow straight, God believing people to join. In God We Trust has only been on our cash since the 1950s.


I knew you were going to zero in on the boy scouts

:):

The boy scouts DO NOT require you to believe in a "Christian" God. They require that you believe in A Creator.
That's the truth of that. :nod
This is not up for dispute because it is THE TRUTH. :nod


They are a "private" organization. They don't allow girls either. It is up to the organization to decide if they want their members exposed to the homosexual life style. Being that it is a "faith based" organization, I don't fault their stance on homosexuals one bit. I can't think of ANY major "religion" that agrees with or is OK with Homosexuality.

In response to your "In God We Trust" comment.

In God We Trust

How did those words get on our money?
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/motto.htm

Researched by
Jim Allison

From the US Treasury's website:

From Treasury Department records it appears that the first suggestion that God be recognized on U.S. coinage can be traced to a letter addressed to the Secretary of Treasury from a minister in 1861. An Act of Congress, approved on April 11, 1864, authorized the coinage of two-cent coins upon which the motto first appeared.

The motto was omitted from the new gold coins issued in 1907, causing a storm of public criticism. As a result, legislation passed in May 1908 made "In God We Trust" mandatory on all coins on which it had previously appeared.

Legislation approved July 11, 1955, made the appearance of "In God We Trust" mandatory on all coins and paper currency of the United States. By Act of July 30, 1956, "In God We Trust" became the national motto of the United States.

Several years ago, the appearance of "In God We Trust" on our money was challenged in the federal courts. The challenge was rejected by the lower federal courts, and the Supreme Court of the United States declined to review the case.


As you can see, your information isn't as factual as you thought. Maybe your position on the Constitution is a bit skewed as well. Not a knock against you because I have been wrong before to.

[Scribe]

Lewis nothing I said was wrong.

The national motto was placed upon all of our cash in 1950s, sure it was on a few coins, but not every peice of currency issued. What I said was right. Neither time period qualifies as "Always," either. There was a lot of American History, including Gettysburg, that happend before God ever appeared on a U.S. Coin.

On a related note "Under God" was not added to the pledge until 1954 on an act of Congress.

Again what I said about the Boy Scouts was right as well. Because you were in such a hurry to "Know" what I would say you forgot to actually read my words.

I said the BSA requires you to believe in God, I never said a Christian religion. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth, or at least try reading what I wrote.

And not that this on topic, but as far as a major religion not condemming homosexuality try Buddism. There are only about 300 to 600 million buddists in the world.

[ddlewis86]

Originally posted by Scribe
Lewis nothing I said was wrong.

The national motto was placed upon all of our cash in 1950s, sure it was on a few coins, but not every peice of currency issued. What I said was right. Neither time period qualifies as "Always," either. There was a lot of American History, including Gettysburg, that happend before God ever appeared on a U.S. Coin.

On a related note "Under God" was not added to the pledge until 1954 on an act of Congress.

Again what I said about the Boy Scouts was right as well. Because you were in such a hurry to "Know" what I would say you forgot to actually read my words.

I said the BSA requires you to believe in God, I never said a Christian religion. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth, or at least try reading what I wrote.

And not that this on topic, but as far as a major religion not condemming homosexuality try Buddism. There are only about 300 to 600 million buddists in the world.


Are you saying the Bhuddist have it right then?

The boyscouts require a belief in a "higher power" a "creator". They don't have to believe in God. To a Christian there is only ONE God. So for the boy scouts to accept you they want you to believe in A god.

There are those that don't believe bhuddism is a "religion" inasmuch as a way of thought. Many Catholics have accpeted a combination of the two.

The bhuddist are still NAMELESS to God.

[Scribe]

Again, please stop putting words in my mouth. All I said that Buddism is a major religion that does not condemn homosexuality. I never endorsed it, I was just stating a fact.

Also, in the BSA pledge the word God is always printed upper case, meaning a specific God, and not a "Creator." Also, their magaizine "Boy's Life" features Bible stories.

[ddlewis86]

Originally posted by Scribe
Again, please stop putting words in my mouth. All I said that Buddism is a major religion that does not condemn homosexuality. I never endorsed it, I was just stating a fact.

Also, in the BSA pledge the word God is always printed upper case, meaning a specific God, and not a "Creator." Also, their magaizine "Boy's Life" features Bible stories.


http://www.scouting.org/media/positions/title.gif
In Support of Diversity

http://www.scouting.org/media/positions/theme.jpg

More than 90 years ago, the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) was founded on the premise of teaching boys moral and ethical values through an outdoor program that challenges them and teaches them respect for nature, one another, and themselves. Scouting has always represented the best in community, leadership, and service.

The Boy Scouts of America has selected its leaders using the highest standards because strong leaders and positive role models are so important to the healthy development of youth. Today, the organization still stands firm that their leaders exemplify the values outlined in the Scout Oath and Law.

On June 28, 2000, the United States Supreme Court reaffirmed the Boy Scouts of America's standing as a private organization with the right to set its own membership and leadership standards.

The BSA respects the rights of people and groups who hold values that differ from those encompassed in the Scout Oath and Law, and the BSA makes no effort to deny the rights of those whose views differ to hold their attitudes or opinions.

Scouts come from all walks of life and are exposed to diversity in Scouting that they may not otherwise experience. The Boy Scouts of America aims to allow youth to live and learn as children and enjoy Scouting without immersing them in the politics of the day.

We hope that our supporters will continue to value the Boy Scouts of America's respect for diversity and the positive impact Scouting has on young people's lives. We realize that not every individual nor organization prescribes to the same beliefs that the BSA does, but we hope that all Americans can be as respectful of our beliefs as we are of theirs and support the overall good Scouting does in American communities.

http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=mc
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ddlewis86]

Boy Scouts of America Launches Campaign to Reach More Youth and Families

Dallas, Texas, December 13, 2002—In February 2003, the Boy Scouts of America will join with religious and community organizations in a national effort to serve more youth with Scouting's character-building programs.

The campaign, entitled "Character Connections—Reaching Youth With Scouting," will run from January 1 through June 30, 2003. It will be supported by a national videoconference on February 5 co-hosted by the BSA's national president, Roy S. Roberts; national commissioner, Rick Cronk; and Chief Scout Executive, Roy L. Williams. The videoconference, which will be broadcast to local BSA venues across the country, will include commentaries, testimonials, and a special message from President George W. Bush.

The campaign is directed at religious and community organizations that share an interest with the BSA in serving youth.

(Note that the term used is "religious organizations" that SHARE an interest in SERVING YOUTH. This isn't "Christian" specific)

It will emphasize the positive impact these organizations can have on their communities and neighborhoods through cooperative efforts with Scouting.

"The Boy Scouts of America has been supporting youth and families for more than 92 years," Roberts says. "By instilling character in youth, we're strengthening families as well as neighborhoods and communities."

According to Chief Scout Executive Williams, community organizations are the place to cultivate Scouting because those organizations know the importance of character based programs.

"In order to recruit youth into the program, you have to have Scout units for them to join," Williams says. "Our goal with Character Connections is to show religious and community organizations how Scouting can benefit them and encourage those organizations to adopt the Scouting program for their families.

"If they already have Scouting units, we want to encourage them to build on what they're doing and take full advantage of all the programs Scouting offers," Williams says.

Organizations interested in Scouting should contact the nearest Boy Scouts of America office listed in the white pages of their local telephone directory, or visit Scouting on the Web at www.scouting.org. http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=mc

[blitzkreig]

I have been out of town a couple days and just now picking up on the messages.

A couple of missed things.

Some (many) stated in the earlier sections of this thread that we should hate the sin but love the sinner. OK. The issue is that they by their nature they are inseparable. By Law in Canada they are inseparable. The sinner is defined willingly by their sin and now in Canadian Law. Know this first: that the Canadian Government made the sin perfectly legal (in the 1970's) and now second, by way of amendment to existing Hate Crime legislation made propagation of ANY NEGATIVE in print or verbally about the Homosex Sin is a CRIME. Yes witnessing about the immorality of the sin is a CRIME.. Repeat that to yourself a few times and think about it... Punishment for this crime could conceivably include jail time... as jail time is already included in this legislation!!! We are talking about sharing a jail cell with Holocaust denier hate monger Ernst Zundel!!! I am not being alarmist. This is a fact.

Once this thing gets legs web pages which have negative aspersions against the homosex lifestyle are illegal in Canada. Wake up... HELLO??? Web pages are blocked in Canada now for all sorts of reasons... some very very rightly so. Child Porn is blocked. Hate against the Jews or any other race or ethnic extraction is blocked. A good thing right!!! But now with the same brush (and in the same legislation) the "Christian Agenda" may be subject to the same rigor if it includes anything negative about the Homosex act or Homosexuals lifestyle.

PS ... In defense of Scribe I tend to agree to a point. It is a Christian "Agenda". But at the hinge point is motive. Our motive is to save souls from everlasting laps in the lake of fire. The homosexual agenda is certainly not as wholesome. The architect and builder of our agenda is God Almighty the Creator of the universe. The architect and builder of Homosex is Satan.

[blitzkreig]

pssssst ddlewis86... in Canada by LAW the Boy Scouts MUST accept homosexuals as leaders. Anything less is hate crime. Think about that for a minute or two.

The marriage of Homosexuals and all the press about that is absolutely overshadowing the HATE CRIME news.

[Aineo1]

Originally posted by Scribe
No it's not, my point is that Christians have an agenda. What do you think the sermon on the mount was about if not Jesus telling the apostles to go and make believers of the world. If that's not an agenda fositered upon the world I don't know what is.

I'm not trying to be offensive, but my point is it's hippocritical for Christianity to criticize the homosexual movement for using the same tools they do. Preaching the gospel and making disciples is not the same as legislating a sin.

What amazes me is the number of Christians who look at the gay agenda with disgust and view the failed morality of the heterosexual majority as normal. Even a cursory study of history will demonstrate that acceptance and tolerance of homosexuality in any culture has ridden the coat tails of the decline in heterosexual morals.

I have also seen and participated in the gay activists movement. In the early 70's after the APA removed homosexuality from the DSM III we organized gay liberation fronts to work toward equal treatment under the law. An interesting fact of this early gay movement was not it success but its failure. It was not until the gay community banded together to fight Anita Bryant in 1978-79 that the gay activists really gained support from the gay community. What you are fighting today is the direct result of a bigoted Christian who did not want gay men living in her restricted and wealthy Dade County Florida area.

If Anita and her group has simply preached the gosple and used personal evangelism the gay agenda you see today would never have materialized. Like many on this thread Antia mistakenly believed and said we "chose" to have gay desires. It is this lie that galvanized "us" to action, that and the name of her organization: "Save Our Children". Save our children from what? The largest number of child molestors are heterosexual men violating girls (usually from their own families).

I see Romans 1:26-7 used a lot on threads dealing with homosexuality and sometimes posters back up and start at verse 21 and apply vs. 21-32 to homosexuals only. However, Pauls teaching starts:Rom 1:18-20

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. NAS

I posted an article on RR from a gay activist titled Homosexuals Opposed to Pride Extremism and it amazes me that a gay man can see the sign of the times better than many who should be able to read them with clarity:Unfortunately, most people's sense of history begins the day they were born, which means all that precedes is outmoded and irrelevant and all that follows is enlightened and progressive. However, we cannot and must not ignore the lessons of history and natural law. Again and again, it has been shown that whenever humankind fails to protect time-honored political, moral and social institutions, whenever humankind attempts to embrace pride as a virtue and mainstream behavior that contravenes natural law, and whenever humankind becomes arrogant, autonomous, egalitarian, nihilistic and foolish, civilization fails - always and without exception. So, here we are repeating the cycle and getting ready to crash and burn one more time.No fault divorce, abortion rights, daytime soap operas, significant others, partners benefits, etc. all preceded the current gay activism you all find so obnoxious. Rome and Greece are held up as prime examples of a fallen society, yet no mention is made of the fact Rome was a republic for 450 years before there first recorded divorce. Heterosexual morality is the determining morality of any culture or society.

[blitzkreig]

Like many on this thread Antia mistakenly believed and said we "chose" to have gay desires. Are you suggesting that the commonly held interpretation of the Scripture which makes this a sin is incorrect?... so we have it all wrong. Or are you saying that it is a sin but it is not of the persons choosing?

[Grimlock Prime]

Originally posted by blitzkreig
In defense of Scribe I tend to agree to a point. It is a Christian "Agenda". But at the hinge point is motive. Our motive is to save souls from everlasting laps in the lake of fire. The homosexual agenda is certainly not as wholesome. The architect and builder of our agenda is God Almighty the Creator of the universe. The architect and builder of Homosex is Satan.

The normalcy of any sexual behavior that feels good, as long as they are "concenting adults" is already leading society down the path to sexualizing children. Lewis has a bit in the last thread about an 11 year old girl repeatedly harrassed about her "sexual experiances" at a Six Flags amusement park. The ACLU is defending an organization that publishes books & magazines on how to entice young boys for sex. One of which keeps popping up on Amazon.com's web site.

Now i'm not going to accuse the gay community of trying to sexualize our children. By and large I do believe them when they say they just want to be treated like anyone else. Who wants to be treated like a freak?

But they've been conned by Satan. Underneath the PR spin of the "sexual revolution" & "gay rights" movements, on both the radical gay & straight sides of the equation is a REAL agenda to normalize sex with anyone & anything. Whatever feels good. Men. women. Children. Animals. Birth control was a HUGE step in that direction. It led the way to casual sex with whoever you wanted whenever. Normalization of homosexuality is the current step.

There's a reason why the Bible singles out sins of the flesh so many times. Not all sin feels good. Lying doesn't make most people feel good. Neither does envy. Or pride. Or anger. But sins of the flesh... they feel good. It's like a drug of the flesh. We get a taste and we want more. We crave sex. It clouds our minds. It holds us hostage. And unlike a narcotic, it's free. It's always there and it always feels good. And JUST LIKE a narcotic, the more you do the further you want to go next time to feel even better. Sex becomes our god. And Satan is laughing at heaven the whole time. "Another one for me".

That's why God warned us to stay pure until marriage & to stay faithful, so that we can avoid the path where that sin can lead us.

[Aineo1]

Originally posted by blitzkreig
Are you suggesting that the commonly held interpretation of the Scripture which makes this a sin is incorrect?... so we have it all wrong. Or are you saying that it is a sin but it is not of the persons choosing? I am saying it is a sin, which the Bible makes abundantly clear and I am saying it is not a chosen desire. If some of you who stand on homosexuality being a choice would simply take the time to talk to a gay man or lesbian woman about the onset of their sexuality you would understand the desires come unchosen, unasked for, many times unwanted. You can choose to change and with effective loving support minus the Bible bashing it can be accomplished with less stress.Rom 3:21-30

21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. NASWe are justified through faith in Jesus Christ not by being heterosexual. Our sexuality can change after faith takes precedence in our lives not before.Rom 2:4
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
NAS

2 Cor 7:10
10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation; but the sorrow of the world produces death.
NAS

2 Tim 2:24-26
24 And the Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will. NASYou can quote Lev 18:22, Romans 1:26-27, and 1 Cor 6:9 until the Lord comes without reaching the gay community. It takes the gospel, which has the power to set men free to free men and women from bondage.

I know one thing that if I had had Internet access in 1983 and read what I see on Christian message boards I would have never left gay life without the continued prompting of the Holy Spirit.

Once a week I volunter for a local AIDS project. I socialize with 3 to 8 gay men with AIDS and one subject that always comes up when Christianity is discussed (and it is when I get an opening) is why gay men are judged by lobster and clam eating Christians who violate the dietary laws. Or why Christians divorce at a rate higher than non-Christians yet judge them based on the Bible. Or why some Christians still see AIDS as God's wrath on the homosexual when this disease has killed 60 million worldwide the vast majority of whom are ever-straight heterosexuals. A disease identified in the US in 1979 but has been around since 1956 according to tests on stored blood from the 1956 Ebola Fever outbreak in Africa.

We are supposed to be abassadors for Christ and His Kingdom, not judges who avoid sinners because their lifestyle disgusts us or makes us uncomfortable.

[blitzkreig]

Originally posted by Aineo1
We are supposed to be abassadors for Christ and His Kingdom, not judges who avoid sinners because their lifestyle disgusts us or makes us uncomfortable. OK. I'll buy. Now if my government makes it a crime for me to witness to a gay person because it makes them feel bad where are we? If I tell a person that Sodomy is sin (as is a LOT of other things by the way)... just having told him or her they are sinners it is a crime.

In Canada we have gone way over the top. Way over. Any propagation of material verbal or written which may be deemed negative toward a homosexual may be deemed hate. There was already one person in Canada who was charged and fined for publishing verses in the Bible as they were judged "Hate"... and that was prior to this Hate Law being passed.

I do believe God will save his portion of Homosexuals. As he does of every other sinners. But without hearing there is a problem...

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

[blitzkreig]

Here are some of the issues the Canadian Laws precipitate:

The Bible, at least certain portions of the Bible, may be declared "hate literature."

Churches will not be able to mention certain Scriptures.

Clergy may be subjected to criminal charges if they refuse to marry homosexuals.

Parents may be subjected to criminal charges if they refuse to allow their children to attend classes that teach about and promote homosexual behavior.

Expressing disagreement with homosexual behavior or the homosexual agenda, either verbally or in writing, would be considered hate propaganda.

Educators, including those at private religious schools, will not be able to refuse to teach homosexual curriculum.

Religious institutions will not be allowed to teach anything non-supportive of homosexual sex.

Canadian Blood Services will not be allowed to screen risk-behavior donors.

Governments (including local municipalities) will be prevented from passing (even debating) sex standards laws.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29328

[Aineo1]

Ok, show me in Scripture where Paul, Jesus, or any of the Apostles started their sermons or messages emphasizing anyone person's particular sin? You can't! On the day of Pentacost Peter called the Jews to repent. In this instance repent means "return to God" not "turn from sin". Repent means both "turn to God" and "turn from sin". But what comes first? If you are going to give something up you need something to replace it.

Paul taught all have sinned so what does harping on homosexuality have to do with the gospel of grace? Nothing. Did you see the verses I posted about repentance? God is the author of repentance not man. God is the gift giver not man. Jesus Christ is what we should be preaching and then let God bring the increase as that is His responsibility not yours or mine.

Have you ever looked into the eyes of gay men or lesbian women in a gay bar? Probably not, but there is a lot of loneliness, fear, and need looking back at you. It is their needs that require fixing not their sexuality. And only the Holy Spirit can fix them we can't.

How did Christ minister to the woman at the well? He did not start by calling her an adulterous woman living with a man she was not married to and in need of repentance. He violated Jewish custom and actually spoke to a Samaritan and a woman at that.

What did Paul tell the jailor? "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved"! Not one word about his sinful life. Peter was sent to Cornelius and started his talk about who Jesus is, not Cornelius' need to repent of his sins. Repentance comes with or after salvation it is not a prerequisite.

Evangelism is a one-on-one process not something you can do in the media. All this anti-gay rhetoric is doing is setting liberal, egalitarian minded people against evangelical Christians. If each Christian would take one gay man, woman, and teen under their wing and demonstrated the gospel in real life we could reach the whole gay community in the Northern Hemisphere in one month with no more effort than loving them and telling them about the benefits of being one with Christ and without once saying homosexuality is a sin.

Heterosexuality when practiced outside a monogamous marriage is sin. The Bible labels adultery an abomination and this sin carries the death penalty in Lev 20:10. Rev 21:7-8 tells me that all immoral people will spend eternity in the lake of fire. So a heterosexual sinner is no better off than a homosexual sinner.

[blitzkreig]

Aineo1... chill. You sold me. I think it is no more a sin than any other... but I still think it is about the most vile gross repugnant thing I can imagine,... but that is not particularly relevant as you point out. Vomit is also repugnant, as it feces, as is bile, and rotting flesh, ... none of which are sins. But don't take my right to call something awful away from me. Can't I still wretch when the impulse over takes me? Now that out of the way...

Now the question is how will they learn if it is a crime to tell them? Has the good will of Homosexual legislators cast them all irretrievably into the abyss? If they do not hear how can they believe?

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

It is illegal to tell a homosexual that they are sinning. (that is a period)

[Aineo1]

blitzkreig, I was using your post to make a point and my comments were not aimed at you. ;):

We American's need to watch what is happening up north since we will soon face the same issues if the proposed Federal Hate Crime legislation is passed. Our liberal judges are making law, not interpreting the Consitution.

[blitzkreig]

Originally posted by Aineo1
blitzkreig, I was using your post to make a point and my comments were not aimed at you. ;):

We American's need to watch what is happening up north since we will soon face the same issues if the proposed Federal Hate Crime legislation is passed. Our liberal judges are making law, not interpreting the Consitution. Exactly what happend to us. Give you a year.

The issue is a dilemma as much as anything. We went from pseudo naysayers to pleading for an opportunity to help the gay bunch in months... not years. I fear it is irretrievable.

[blitzkreig]

I am saying it is a sin, which the Bible makes abundantly clear and I am saying it is not a chosen desire. If some of you who stand on homosexuality being a choice would simply take the time to talk to a gay man or lesbian woman about the onset of their sexuality you would understand the desires come unchosen, unasked for, many times unwanted. You can choose to change and with effective loving support minus the Bible bashing it can be accomplished with less stress. This statement is quite visionary. I do believe that people are not "born" that way but "become". The fact is however that God does "drag some" over the rocks of life for some reason. Sometimes to bring them down before bringing them up. I do know that to be the case. OK if we go that route what do we do now?

What ever it takes do not let your legislators make it a crime to condemn sin (of what ever flavour).

[Katydid278]

Posted by Aineo1.......

Or why Christians divorce at a rate higher than non-Christians yet judge them based on the Bible. Or why some Christians still see AIDS as God's wrath on the homosexual when this disease has killed 60 million worldwide the vast majority of whom are ever-straight heterosexuals. A disease identified in the US in 1979 but has been around since 1956 according to tests on stored blood from the 1956 Ebola Fever outbreak in Africa.

We are supposed to be abassadors for Christ and His Kingdom, not judges who avoid sinners because their lifestyle disgusts us or makes us uncomfortable.



Um, I have to disagree with 3 things you stated. Number 1 where did you get the "fact" that Christians divorce rate is higher than non??? Divorce is all around us but at the huge church I have frequented since I was a child, there are the same couples there together now as there was then. I think it stands to reason that Christian peoples have the values that makes for trying harder at, and placing value on, marriage. Number 2 is that yes, AIDS might have spread to heterosexuals but it started with Homosexuals. My father's cousin, who was gay, died many years ago and was one of the FIRST known cases of Aids. Finally number 3 is that last paragraph of yours. Yes we ARE supposed to avoid those kinds of "sinners", as far as, not socialize with them and I'm sure someone here knows the scripture to back that up. And what do you mean by "avoiding sinners?" We are ALL sinners. The difference is those who repent of their sin and those who go on openly sinning and not caring. Those who are saved and those who are unsaved. And I'm sorry but if that lifestyle, including many others, DIDN"T make me "uncomfortable" then there would be something wrong with me since I AM a Bible-beleiving Christian indwelled by the Holy Spirit. I would pray that the Holy Spirit would be poured out on many in the gay community.

[ddlewis86]

As far as the divorce rate goes.:spit


There are a TON of people that "call" themselves Christian but aren't.

How many of THOSE people are figured into the stats pertaining to "Christian" divorce rates?

If you remove those type of people, you would have a MUCH lower rate. This poll is skewed EXACTLY FOR THE PURPOSE in which you just used it Aineo1. :nod

[Wingshire]

Why is it we are always "harping" on gays when addressing issues involving gays. Issues that are vey important especially to the future of this nation.

You want to know why the gay agenda frightens me? Because it calls for men to be "unnatural" unilke fornicators who lie with members of the opposite sex, (which is natural mind you), but in it's action is sinful.

Is it gay people that bother you? People who threaten the well-being of my country bother me. That includes gay people who force their corrupted agendas down the childrens throats.

Or is it that they lead public lives? And are un-repentent, yea, I think that bothers me. But I won't lump them into a higher offense category than any other sexual sinner, not replay THAT broken record yet, AGAIN.:rolleyes

[ddlewis86]

I thought this was a thread about the gay lifestyle altogether...:confused


title of thread
Is it gay people that bothers you, or just that they lead public lives? Part deux

[BigglesNC]

Here is an interesting read:

http://www.divorcereform.org/mel/rbaptisthigh.html


The survey conducted by Barna Research Group in Ventura, Calif., found that 29 percent of all adult Baptists have been through a divorce. Among Christian groups, only those who attend non-denominational Protestant churches were more likely to be divorced, with a 34 percent divorce rate.

...

The survey found that Mormons, who emphasize strong families, are near the national average at 24 percent.


Of course, span of time may result in higher numbers. But if this survey says the national average is about 24%, and 29% of Baptists have been divorced... I dunno. I find it interesting.

[Katydid278]

Is it gay people that bothers you, or just that they lead public lives? Part deux
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To answer the original question, ;): , personally individual gay people don't bother me. People who are gay and have an "agenda" do. Just as we all don't get along with or like "everyones" personality, there are gays that I would get along with and others I wouldn't. Same as with heteros. If you happen to be gay and don't flaunt it in my face, just as I wouldn't flaunt my sexuality in "your" face, fine. But I would not purposely fraternize with openly gay people just as I wouldn't with bar-hoppers. Would make me feel "dirty" in the eyes of God. If, lets say, my brother came out as gay, I would try to stifle the images that would come to my mind :doh but I would definitely still love him and would pray for him regularly. However if he decided to start bringing his SO over and got openly affectionate I would have to boot him outta my house. I think that the only way for a homo- to be convicted of their sin is for them to BE ashamed and have to hide what they do. The shame is now being converted to "pride" and that is very, very wrong. :tsk This movement will spawn a whole bunch of people headed for hell that would otherwise not have been going there. Once you become heavily steeped in sin and the world makes evil good, it is much harder to ever find your way to Christ, in most cases.

[ddlewis86]

Originally posted by BigglesNC
Here is an interesting read:

http://www.divorcereform.org/mel/rbaptisthigh.html



Of course, span of time may result in higher numbers. But if this survey says the national average is about 24%, and 29% of Baptists have been divorced... I dunno. I find it interesting.

Divorce
(All figures are for U.S.)


http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/divorce.htm

[BigglesNC]

Well, if you bothered to read the article, you would see how they got the data.

Granted they didn't use a large random sample, but since the CDC does not keep track of the faith of the individual, it is pretty pointless to post information that has nothing to do with the percentage of divorced christians. All the link does is show the national divorce rate. Your claim below is not supported nor denied by the existance of this CDC "FastStat". Can you provide statistical data that will illustrate your opinion?


There are a TON of people that "call" themselves Christian but aren't.

How many of THOSE people are figured into the stats pertaining to "Christian" divorce rates?

If you remove those type of people, you would have a MUCH lower rate. This poll is skewed EXACTLY FOR THE PURPOSE in which you just used it Aineo1.

[ddlewis86]

Originally posted by BigglesNC
Well, if you bothered to read the article, you would see how they got the data.

Granted they didn't use a large random sample, but since the CDC does not keep track of the faith of the individual, it is pretty pointless to post information that has nothing to do with the percentage of divorced christians. All the link does is show the national divorce rate. Your claim below is not supported nor denied by the existance of this CDC "FastStat". Can you provide statistical data that will illustrate your opinion?


You know what Biggles?

I think you are doing nothing more than trying to pick a fight. :nod

How in the world are you going to be able to come up with a statistic that can take into account the "salvation" of the people being asked the question in the first place?

As a Christian I know, and have met, several people that "CALL" themselves Christian.

So before you go out LOOKING for a fight, why don't you take a logical approach to things before you start demanding ANYTHING from anyone. :):

[BigglesNC]

:pound

[ddlewis86]

Originally posted by BigglesNC
:pound


It's juuuust like fishing isn't it biggles?

Throw some more bait out there and see if I BITE.

G'nite.

:D:

[BigglesNC]

:rolleyes

[Wingshire]

Why don't you two just open a new thread and play? :sigh
This one is already swaying way off course.

[ddlewis86]

Originally posted by WingShire
Why don't you two just open a new thread and play? :sigh
This one is already swaying way off course.

Thank you wingshire. :):


I was merely trying to point out that the website posted was a good source for these statistics. I never made any reference or even commented in the post that I made when I linked to that site.

Anyway. I think the post has wandered and I apologize if I derailed it or prolonged the derailment. :):

God bless!

[Ponderin]

Dated: July 7, 2003 (http://www.capalert.com/blatantmediabias.htm)

CBS' Pro-"Gay" Bias:
Marketing Homosexuality to America
-------------------------------------------------------------

Last Wednesday, July 2, Irene, myself and our two children filmed a 45 minute segment for CBS' program "Sunday Morning." Our lengthy interview dealt with the same-sex marriage issue.

During the interview, Irene and I powerfully shared how I WAS "gay" -- and now how I am no longer homosexual. We told the interviewer how I lived the "gay" lifestyle for over eleven years, sexually active with over 100 male partners -- many whom are dead today from AIDS. We told her how I walked away from it all in 1992 -- never to return again -- and how I DO NOT struggle with homosexuality whatsoever.

Now happily married to my wife for over ten years, we clearly told the interviewer how homosexuality is a dangerous, destructive and unnatural lifestyle... how no one is born "gay"... yet a behavior that CAN and should be permanently changed. We compared the lifestyle to that of drug addiction and alcoholism -- lifestyles that one would be encouraged to seek help to leave -- NEVER encouraged to stay in.

We made it very clear on camera that CBS had us on for one reason: because I WAS a former homosexual. We told them how they would NEVER have a former black man. We said how there is no scientific proof or research whatsoever showing that one is born "gay." We told the interviewer how I was only one of thousands of men and women who are living proof that homosexuals CAN permanently change... living proof that ANY legislation based upon the presupposition that one is born "gay" and cannot change - is faulty, flawed and simply WRONG.

THAT is why we say no to "gay" marriage. We told the interviewer "gay" marriage is a counterfeit of the "real thing"... how two men or two women who are looking to get married are doing nothing more than "playing house" -- trying to conform reality and society to their grand delusion. We shared how REAL love and REAL tolerance is sharing the TRUTH with these individuals -- not passing laws and legislation allowing them to remain in their unhealthy lifestyle.

We gave the current statistics of the CDC (Center for Disease Control) of the epidemic proportions of homosexuals with HIV/AIDS in America -- as well as how the Supreme Court's decision on the Texas sodomy law was absolutely unconscionable.

The interview aired yesterday (Sunday, July 6th) and was nothing more than a infomercial for "gay" marriage. Our 45 minute interview -- was cut down to less than 60 seconds. CBS NEVER mentioned that I was a former homosexual, but said only we were a family who for "RELIGIOUS REASONS" took a stand against "gay" marriage! I mentioned my Christian testimony ONCE in the beginning of the interview -- and did not bring it up again. Yet CBS had an axe to grind and tried to make Christians look like "religious bigots" and "homophobes" -- to suit their one sided story.

During the interview, it was clear the interviewer and the producer felt threatened by the answers Irene and I were giving on the issue of same-sex marriage, and realized our interview would do more damage to their pro-"gay" piece -- rather than help it.

If CBS truly cared about being "fair and balanced" as the producer assured me and aired everything we said sharing the truth in love about the homosexual issue, I guarantee you -- MILLIONS of American's minds on the homosexual issue would have changed yesterday morning.

I guess what bothers me the most is how the producer ASSURED Irene and I in front of 6 people in the room that no matter what she edited, she would make sure she left in the piece that I WAS a former homosexual. Knowing the media, I should have expected it.

CBS had one purpose yesterday: to make their plea and sell "gay" marriage to America -- and they were not going to let ANYONE stop them from doing so.

Over the past several years, I've learned the power of the media to manipulate America -- yet any opportunity we get to present the truth -- we will continue to do so. We are going into the lion's den, however, the truth needs to be proclaimed - no matter how filtered it may be.

It just goes to show how deadly and dangerous the truth of the "ex-gay" message on homosexuality is to the pro-"gay" movement. If people REALLY can change -- their foundation has crumbled -- and they've lost it all. No basis for "gay" marriage -- no basis for "gay" adoption -- no basis for "gay" special rights -- no basis for promoting and pushing homosexuality in the public schools -- and no basis for ANY laws and legislation protecting their sexual deviancy.

Former homosexual men and women are hated by the "gay" activists because we ARE the ones who live the truth -- the truth they hate and despise so much -- the truth which can set them free.

The secular media will do anything and everything to keep America from hearing the truth, which gives me even more reason to get our message out louder and clearer - that NO ONE is born "gay" -- and homosexuals CAN completely change.

Thanks to all who prayed this weekend -- and please keep us in your prayers as we go forward. May the Lord use it for His glory!

Stephen Bennett
Stephen Bennett Ministries
www.SBMinistries.org

[Aineo1]

Originally posted by Katydid278
Posted by Aineo1.......

Or why Christians divorce at a rate higher than non-Christians yet judge them based on the Bible. Or why some Christians still see AIDS as God's wrath on the homosexual when this disease has killed 60 million worldwide the vast majority of whom are ever-straight heterosexuals. A disease identified in the US in 1979 but has been around since 1956 according to tests on stored blood from the 1956 Ebola Fever outbreak in Africa.

We are supposed to be abassadors for Christ and His Kingdom, not judges who avoid sinners because their lifestyle disgusts us or makes us uncomfortable.



Um, I have to disagree with 3 things you stated. Number 1 where did you get the "fact" that Christians divorce rate is higher than non??? Divorce is all around us but at the huge church I have frequented since I was a child, there are the same couples there together now as there was then. I think it stands to reason that Christian peoples have the values that makes for trying harder at, and placing value on, marriage.A little research would answer you, but since you want references: ___"Born-again" Christians are more likely to go through a marital split than are non-Christians, according to a new study by the Barna Research Group.
___Using statistics drawn from a nationwide survey of nearly 4,000 adults, the Barna data show 11 percent of the adult population currently is divorced but that 25 percent of all adults have experienced at least one divorce.
___Among "born-again" Christians, 27 percent currently are divorced or previously have been divorced, compared with 24 percent among adults who are not "born again."
___Surprisingly, the Barna report said, the Christian group whose adherents have the highest likelihood of getting divorced are Baptists. The only group to surpass Baptists were Christians associated with non-denominational Protestant churches

http://www.baptiststandard.com/2000/1_12/pages/divorce.html


The Associated Press 12/30/99 1:31 AM Eastern

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. (AP) -- Baptists have the highest divorce rate of any
Christian denomination, and are more likely to get a divorce than
atheists and agnostics, according to a national survey.

The survey conducted by Barna Research Group in Ventura, Calif., found
that 29 percent of all adult Baptists have been through a divorce. Among
Christian groups, only those who attend non-denominational Protestant
churches were more likely to be divorced, with a 34 percent divorce rate.

Alabama, with a population of 4.3 million, has more than one million
Southern Baptists and a majority of evangelical Protestants. The state
ranks fourth nationally in divorce rates, behind Nevada, Tennessee and
Arkansas, according to U.S. government statistics.

http://www.baptiststandard.com/2000/1_12/pages/divorce.html
Number 2 is that yes, AIDS might have spread to heterosexuals but it started with Homosexuals. My father's cousin, who was gay, died many years ago and was one of the FIRST known cases of Aids.The first three deaths attributed to AIDS in Houston were friends of mine. That does not mean the disease came from gay men. Again a little research would answer your question: Analysis in 1998 of the plasma sample from 1959 was interpreted5 as suggesting that HIV-1 was introduced into humans around the 1940s or the early 1950s, which was earlier than had previously been suggested. Other scientists have suggested that it could have been even longer, perhaps around 100 years or more ago.
http://hivinsite.ucsf.edu/InSite.jsp?doc=2098.3cce
Washington -- A team of international scientists have announced they have traced the origin of the AIDS virus to a closely related virus in a subspecies of chimpanzee in Africa.
The scientists, who reported their findings January 31 at the Conference on Retroviruses and Opportunistic Infections being held in Chicago, said that research will now focus on why the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) that causes AIDS is lethal for humans while the related virus causes apparently no illness in the chimpanzees, even though humans and chimpanzees are 98 percent genetically similar.
Although scientific researchers have long suspected that HIV-1, the type of AIDS virus that has caused the overwhelming majority of cases in the world, came from chimpanzees, scientists have not been able to identify the precise subspecies until now. The chimpanzee virus is known as SIVcpz, or "simian immunodeficiency virus chimpanzee."
"The chimpanzee, which has served as the source of HIV-1, also quite possibly holds the clues to its successful control," the head of the research team, Dr. Beatrice Hahn of the University of Alabama at Birmingham, said in an interview.
http://www.aegis.com/news/usis/1999/US990201.htmlSyphilis came from sheep (American Indians gift to the invading white man) are you going to blame that STD on homosexuals also? Finally number 3 is that last paragraph of yours. Yes we ARE supposed to avoid those kinds of "sinners", as far as, not socialize with them and I'm sure someone here knows the scripture to back that up. And what do you mean by "avoiding sinners?" We are ALL sinners. The difference is those who repent of their sin and those who go on openly sinning and not caring. Those who are saved and those who are unsaved. And I'm sorry but if that lifestyle, including many others, DIDN"T make me "uncomfortable" then there would be something wrong with me since I AM a Bible-beleiving Christian indwelled by the Holy Spirit. I would pray that the Holy Spirit would be poured out on many in the gay community. The Scripture you are probably thinking of is:1 Corinthians 5:9-11
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters; for then you would have to go out of the world. 11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he should be an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-- not even to eat with such a one. NASDo you know any Christians who are divorced for reasons other than immorality and have remarried? If so you should not be socializing with them since according to Jesus in Matthew 19 they are living an adulterous life.

Being around and socializing with gay men does not make me uncomfortable because it is my duty (and yours) to preach the gospel in word and deed. You can’t do that in isolation or sitting in your church. Jesus instructed His disciples to “Go into the world” if that does not mean socialize what does it mean? Jesus socialized with sinners and I would suppose being in the presence of sin hurt Him deeply and disgusted Him, but His love for us was more important than His pain or disgust.

[Aineo1]

Originally posted by ddlewis86
As far as the divorce rate goes.:spit


There are a TON of people that "call" themselves Christian but aren't.

How many of THOSE people are figured into the stats pertaining to "Christian" divorce rates?

If you remove those type of people, you would have a MUCH lower rate. This poll is skewed EXACTLY FOR THE PURPOSE in which you just used it Aineo1. :nod
:): My statistics come from two sources, one a Christian group, if you bother to check out the site instead of denying the truth. I attended 2 of the largest Southern Baptist Churches in Houston and the divorce rate was out of sight, so don't accuse me of misusing statistics unless you can show me where they are wrong.

[Aineo1]

Originally posted by ddlewis86

You kno