Do you have to give your 10% to an actual *church*?

[Grow with God]

Instead, can you send your tithes to, for example, Samaritan's Purse or to a missionary you've adopted?

[antsinmypants]

No :tin, you don't have to give just to a church for tithes to "count".

We have given like that more times than I can count, and G-d rewards it just the same.

[painkiller]

were did you come up with having to give 10% to anyone?

[cameron222]

I believe the instructions said to bring the tithes into the storehouse.......but we are no longer under that law. You give according to whats in your heart and as you have need.

[Nimrod]

It's all God's anyway. When you feel the Spirit move, then get out that checkbook and write!

Peace

[Elizabeth_S]

ah! another tithing thread.

Everyone, get out your flame retardant suits.:mad

:twitch

:yell

:lol

[bigbill52a]

Primitive Baptists dont believe in tithes. They dont take a collection during the service. They have a couple of baskets up front, if anyone is inclined to make an offering.

I dont know how many times that I have stopped going to church because I didnt have money for the offering or the church was putting pressure on me to tithe which I always considered Old Testament.

[Jael]

Originally posted by Nimrod
It's all God's anyway. When you feel the Spirit move, then get out that checkbook and write!

Peace

:thumb

[paul_v]

The way I see it if I attend the same church regularly and if my kids are using the children's ministry I'm giving them a tithe. What, you don't think churches have to pay electric bills?

[RedBall]

Really! Are electric bills and heating bills "Old Testament", too? Where do you think that money should come from?

[Workfromhomemom]

Originally posted by Grow with God
Instead, can you send your tithes to, for example, Samaritan's Purse or to a missionary you've adopted?


Just my observation... the closer a church is to being defined as "strong local church" in their beliefs, the more tithing to the church only is emphasized.

I have recently come out of that, although I do believe in the local church. I just believe that we can support the Lord through direct giving to missions, evangelistic groups like Ariel Ministries who are para church organizations, and through supporting the local church.

I have found a church whose budget is real simple... pay the overhead bills (electric, water, etc) and the rest goes directly to the mission field. No pastor salary, no anything else. Amazing! {Now I have no problem scripturally with paying the pastor, although we are warned that it can be abused and the pastor should not insist on it if the funds are just not there!}

Anyway, our giving now is totally under grace...

2 Cor 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

No 10% there, just give as the Lord blesses. Other verses tell us that if the Lord blesses us and we fail to share those blessing, our reward will be affected. So our liberty in grace does carry responsibility!

2 Cor 9:6 But this [I say], He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.


Hope that this helps.

:):

[andy]

Hello:wave

I am not going to get into the debate on whether the tithe is OT or NT.

What God truly wants from you is your heart. 100%. As was stated previously, anything we have or will have belongs to God.
Give to the Lord, let Him direct where the funds are to go. Also, and I am not saying you are not doing this, give of your time, talents, and gifts.

God bless.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by paul_v
The way I see it if I attend the same church regularly and if my kids are using the children's ministry I'm giving them a tithe. What, you don't think churches have to pay electric bills?

Actually, if we would get away from our modern idea of "church", and get back to the way the Apostles and the Holy Spirit originally designed the church to meet (in homes!) then the whole issue of overhead goes away. And then giving becomes like it was put forth by Paul... and it's not tithing! Funny how when we follow scripture in these things, things are simple. When we design our church ourselves (buildings, salaried professional clergy, programs) things become complicated.

Kinda like salvation... very simple plan. But man comes in and makes things complicated.

I find it interesting that when we follow our design of church... we have to bring in the OT law and put people under it in order for it to work. When we follow Paul's example, and the example of the churches mentioned in the book of Acts... we experience true freedom.

Think about it.

[BarbT]

Krispy, as usual you have illustrated the true meaning of *church*. Thanks for your consistant, common sense teaching on the subject. It really is simple. :thumb

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by BarbT
Krispy, as usual you have illustrated the true meaning of *church*. Thanks for your consistant, common sense teaching on the subject. It really is simple. :thumb

Aw shucks... I'm blushin' over here!!

Just remember... KISS ... Keep It Simple, Stupid!

[RedBall]

Unless you are advocating we burn down all our church buildings and go back to meeting in homes, where should the money come from to keep the church going? What kind of church do you attend?

[antsinmypants]

Though the congregation I attend meets in a house Beth El Shaddai (http://www.shaddai.com) doesn't harp on people paying their tithes and we are a very strong congregation. We know about tithes and about 90% of us not only give tithes, but offerings as well.. and we do all help take care of the power, and sound equipment (we started a new ministry to send tapes to those of our congregation overseas, and those who are shut in and we number 100 or less).. and the usual maintenence needed to celebrate the feasts and holy days.

We also give to missions... (beside the point)..

But we have no Rabbi, and our elders and members take turns giving the message, thereby taking away that need to "provide for a pastor"..

But guys, a Pastorate (or even that of a Rabbi) job is a 100% job, and it takes 100% of a pastor to get everything done that is needed to be done each week (visiting the sick and dying, caring for the missions works, preparing sermons and caring for his family and organizing everything else and paying the bills).. There is almost NO way that a Pastor/Rabbi can get a second job to take care of his family.

All the pastors I have known personally were penny pinchers and very very frugal (ever hear of "recycling saran wrap" or tin foil??, wife only had one or at best three pairs of shoes (church, yard work and tennis shoes)? Children all using hand-me-downs and the oldest gets clothes from the thrift store or missionary barrel...? ).

Yes Paul supported himself, yet we see no other mention of other disciples supporting themselves, but devoting their time, and thier families doing the same-- to the ministry.

And back then, there apparently wasn't much trouble distributing where there were needs.. because everyone was taken care of for all the needs they had.. and now days everyone is always concerned only for their needs- that they don't even think "hey, does my pastor have food to go on his table?" (this doesn't apply if you have a mega-church, cos no doubt he does)


We don't have problems with distribution where we are, as we all keep close contact and ask the questions "hey, do you need anything?" to everyone we feel might have a need.. even if they are visitors.

There has to be a healthy balance. You can't tell visitors "hey you HAVE to give when the basket/cup/plate/pocket goes past you" or imply that-- but every believer should pray whether or not there is SOME ministry they can help out (other than just giving their "tithes" of prayer or 'time'.. even though that is precious--)

G-d said, even in the NT time that we arent' to give begrudgingly, and we should give our first fruits (our best).. I don't see a change anywhere else in scripture, and it is well known that the time the apostle wrote about "cheerful giving" was about people giving Free will offerings.. it wasn't talking about tithes.


2 Corinthians 9


The Collection for Christians in Jerusalem

1I really don't need to write to you about this gift for the Christians in Jerusalem.[1] 2For I know how eager you are to help, and I have been boasting to our friends in Macedonia that you Christians in Greece[2] were ready to send an offering a year ago. In fact, it was your enthusiasm that stirred up many of them to begin helping. 3But I am sending these brothers just to be sure that you really are ready, as I told them you would be, with your money all collected. I don't want it to turn out that I was wrong in my boasting about you. 4I would be humiliated--and so would you--if some Macedonian Christians came with me, only to find that you still weren't ready after all I had told them! 5So I thought I should send these brothers ahead of me to make sure the gift you promised is ready. But I want it to be a willing gift, not one given under pressure.
6Remember this--a farmer who plants only a few seeds will get a small crop. But the one who plants generously will get a generous crop. 7You must each make up your own mind as to how much you should give. Don't give reluctantly or in response to pressure. For God loves the person who gives cheerfully. 8And God will generously provide all you need. Then you will always have everything you need and plenty left over to share with others. 9As the Scriptures say,

"Godly people give generously to the poor.
Their good deeds will never be forgotten."[3]
10For God is the one who gives seed to the farmer and then bread to eat. In the same way, he will give you many opportunities to do good, and he will produce a great harvest of generosity[4] in you.
11Yes, you will be enriched so that you can give even more generously. And when we take your gifts to those who need them, they will break out in thanksgiving to God. 12So two good things will happen--the needs of the Christians in Jerusalem will be met, and they will joyfully express their thanksgiving to God. 13You will be glorifying God through your generous gifts. For your generosity to them will prove that you are obedient to the Good News of Christ. 14And they will pray for you with deep affection because of the wonderful grace of God shown through you.

What was said in the NT about tithes, was about those who did so to be seen of men.. and of the widow who gave EVERYTHING she had.. (her last 1/8th of a penny)


Mar 12:38 And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and [love] salutations in the marketplaces,

Mar 12:39 And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts:

Mar 12:40 Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

Mar 12:41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.

Mar 12:42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

Mar 12:43 And he called [unto him] his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

Mar 12:44 For all [they] did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, [even] all her living.



The word used for Treasury entails that it was for tithes AND offerings.

It's Greek # in Strongs is 1049, and it is from 1047 and 5439
it means:

gazophulakion {gad-zof-oo-lak'-ee-on}

TDNT Reference Root Word
Not Available from 1047 and 5438
Part of Speech
n n
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) a repository of treasure, especially of public treasure, a treasury

++++
It is used to describe the apartments constructed in the courts of the temple, in which the not only the sacred offerings and things needful for the service were kept, but in which the priests, etc, dwelt: Neh. 13:7; of the sacred treasury in which not only treasure but also public records were stored, and the property of widows and orphans was deposited. Josephus speaks of treasuries in the women's court of Herod's temple. In the N.T. near the treasury seems to used of that receptacle mentioned by the rabbis to which were fitted thirteen chests or boxes, i.e. trumpets, so called from their shape, and into which were put the contributions made voluntarily or paid yearly by the Jews for the service of the temple and the support of the poor.


The other mention that Y'shua says "give G-d what is His"..


Mat 22:15 Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in [his] talk.

Mat 22:16 And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any [man]: for thou regardest not the person of men.

Mat 22:17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?

Mat 22:18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, [ye] hypocrites?

Mat 22:19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.

Mat 22:20 And he saith unto them, Whose [is] this image and superscription?

Mat 22:21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Mat 22:22 When they had heard [these words], they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.


and in Mark:


Mar 12:14 And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?

Mar 12:15 Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see [it].

Mar 12:16 And they brought [it]. And he saith unto them, Whose [is] this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's.

Mar 12:17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.


and it is mentioned again (:eek) in Luke:


Luk 20:20 And they watched [him], and sent forth spies, which should feign themselves just men, that they might take hold of his words, that so they might deliver him unto the power and authority of the governor.

Luk 20:21 And they asked him, saying, Master, we know that thou sayest and teachest rightly, neither acceptest thou the person [of any], but teachest the way of God truly:

Luk 20:22 Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no?

Luk 20:23 But he perceived their craftiness, and said unto them, Why tempt ye me?

Luk 20:24 Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar's.

Luk 20:25 And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.



But what thing is G-d's??
G-d instituting not only giving (cheerful "free will offerings") for the widows, fatherless and strangers in the land.. but He also instituted tithes and offerings. And for those who lived in a place where there was no way to give their goods (without it perishing on the way) to the Temple, they converted into money and brought to the Temple itself.

I don't see any place that this was said "and now there is no need for tithing".

The chapter speaks of helping those who need help. That's all.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by RedBall
Unless you are advocating we burn down all our church buildings and go back to meeting in homes, where should the money come from to keep the church going? What kind of church do you attend?

Actually... in my way of thinking, that wouldnt be a bad idea.

I dont attend a church. I am the church... just as you are too. We gather with other believers in homes. We have a "house church" network... and guess what! NO OVERHEAD. The people who gather with us give to several different missionaries and other organizations, as well as individual needs.

If I understand you correctly, are you saying we are too far down the road to turn back to what the Lord intended?

[KrispyKritter]

A little idol smashing is good for the soul. :thumb

[Pointerman]

Come on Krispy. You know that most people don't hold their church building as an idol. You know I fully respect your stance on this issue, but I also have to ask how many people just wander into your home on a Sunday morning to check it out? I would venture zero. Church buildings serve an excellent purpose. They offer a place for people to "wander" into and hear the gospel. I know you will say that it is not the job of the "church" to preach the gospel inside it's walls, but rather the job of God's people to do this. Bottom line on this issue is that we should have as many ways for people to find Christ as possible. Church buildings are one way for people to hear about Christ.

[KrispyKritter]

I want to clarify that I am not advocating arson!

You have a point, however I would contend that the first century church turned the world upside down (according to the Jewish officials in the book of Acts), and they did it without buildings.

A building in and of itself is not evil or good. But when a fellowship moves into a building the natural progression is to then organize, elect, and begin running the fellowship like an organization. The intents of the apostles are then lost as well. It's not the building, it's the organization that takes place that I am against.

The apostles were very specific about how the local church is to be organized, and tho many feel their church is organized according to scripture... it generally is not. We look at the NT thru Western 20th century glasses. Even people who never step foot in the church their whole life fall into line with how churches are run today. We need to step back... take a look at scripture, and do away with things that are not in the Word.

Buildings cost money. I know because I am involved in the design aspect of many church buildings... I can tell you exactly how much they cost. But thats my occupation. (I also design schools, hospitals and commercial buildings too... churches are only one area of expertise)

So with the expense of building comes the need to finance it. That means debt (another thing the Bible has a lot to say about), and with debt comes bills. Then you have utilities that must be paid for.

So what do we need to pay for all of this?

Tithing.

So we bring in OT law in order to pay for it all.

That is wrong. It's putting people under the law. Paul spoke of giving without being compelled to give. I've never once heard a sermon on tithing that didnt involve compelling people to give their tithe. Once we give under compulsion, it's not joyful giving, and God doesnt want it.

Actually, people dont walk in off the street into one of our home gatherings. But we do get numerous people who come who find out about us thru one of our people... and I would dare say that percentage-wise, we get more unsaved people thru our doors than the First Church of Whatever down the street. But they come after already being primed by a believer who has been witnessing to them.

I'm all for someone coming in off the street to the First Church of Whatever and hearing the Word. I think thats wonderful... but it doesnt give us the right to disregard scripture and do something that God did not design for His church. The Holy Spirit will lead those who He wishes to Him. He is capable. But the ends do not justify the means.

[KrispyKritter]

Someone is bound to come on here and say "You come out against institutional churches and buildings... yet you design churches."

Before that happens, let me say that to me all a building is is concrete, wood, and masonry. It's not my job to tell a church not to build, or what to do with the building once it's completed. It's no different than a car dealer who sells a car, and later the owner of the car is arrested for carrying a dead body around in the trunk of that car. Is the car dealer responsible? No.

As far as a building being an idol... let me tell ya, that may not be true for all churches, but it is true for most. I have seen enough vanity in churches here in NC when it comes to buildings to last me a lifetime. For example, there is a Baptist church outside of Asheville that put up a 5 million dollar building... complete with marble floors and a $25,000 cherry alter rail. Tell me thats not an idol. Let some little kid mar that thing with his mother's keys while she's kneeling at the alter, and see what happens. Did God intend for his church to build another Solomon's Temple? No! Thats why Paul stressed over and over again that God's temple is not build with wood and stone! God's Spirit resides in His people... thats you, and thats me! We are God's temple.

This all may seem off the topic, but I dont think it is. This is the main reason why tithing is taught today. To pay for everything. And most of the things we have to pay for are unscriptural.

[KrispyKritter]

By the way... the fastest growing missionary movement in South America is home churches. Ya know who caught on to that? The Southern Baptist denomination. They have stopped trying to start up big churches, and are now planting house churches.

[RedBall]

So you are saying that everyone should meet in homes, and it is wrong to meet in buildings that cost money? I don't think any of the disciples had a house big enough to fit the 3,000 people that joined the church in one day. And wasn't there just one church per city in the first century (i.e. The church of Corinth, the church at Ephesus, etc.)? Is it wrong for a church to do anything that costs money? If not, why single out buildings?

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by RedBall
So you are saying that everyone should meet in homes, and it is wrong to meet in buildings that cost money? I don't think any of the disciples had a house big enough to fit the 3,000 people that joined the church in one day. And wasn't there just one church per city in the first century (i.e. The church of Corinth, the church at Ephesus, etc.)? Is it wrong for a church to do anything that costs money? If not, why single out buildings?

When it talks of 3000 being added (not joining, as you put it) it is referring to 3000 getting saved. The church in this context is referring to the Body of Christ.

You assume there was one one gathering of believers in each city. The fact is there were many. Acts shows us that they met in homes. They were apparently networked together because when Paul addressed his letter, he addressed them to "the church in Whatever City". It wasnt to one congregation... it was to the believers in that city.

You're coming at this all wrong. The church is not an organization, it is the Body of Christ. The body of believers. You & me.

Next you'll say they met in the Synagogue. Yep, they did... but why? It wasnt to worship. It was to show their Jewish brothers the truth thru the Torah. Just as Jesus did. However, Gentiles were never allowed in the Synogogue. So the argument that they met in buildings is not true for the gentile believers, who made up the majority of believers in a few short years.

[antsinmypants]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Next you'll say they met in the Synagogue. Yep, they did... but why? It wasnt to worship. It was to show their Jewish brothers the truth thru the Torah. Just as Jesus did. However, Gentiles were never allowed in the Synogogue. So the argument that they met in buildings is not true for the gentile believers, who made up the majority of believers in a few short years.


That's very very off base. History proves that the believers, including those of the nations were meeting in the synogogues in Laodecia, Ephesus and Corith, and Colossus up until the last Roman Revolts, when the Jewish people were so upset at the fact believers wouldn't take up arms against the Romans that they tossed them out in the streets.

One or two of the synogogues that Paul went to was comprised of 80% believers before he left. You cannot say that they were "just there because they were showing truth through torah"... because History proves otherwise.

Council of Nicea (http://www.yashanet.com/library/antisem.htm)

[KrispyKritter]

The Gentiles were not allowed to meet in the Synagogues.

Your agenda, Ants, is to show all of us that we need to live by the Torah... so it's no surprise that you would question my knowledge of this. We've discussed your thoughts on living by OT law, and I reject your stance on that. (but I dont reject you!:D:)

Acts refers to believers meeting in homes. It cant be disputed. They didnt go to the Synagogue to worship Jesus, that would have been blasphemey to the Jewish leaders.

[Workfromhomemom]

Krispy,
I am with you on this. My experience is not as broad as yours, but nonetheless I have been exposed to this particular form of idol worship.

The church that i have come out of recently is getting close to the point of growing beyond the size of the current building. What did they do in the past few years? Built an enormous Family Center (gym, kitchen, stage, etc) for over 1 mill. Now what is next? They want to expand the santuary for more millions. Multiple services have been suggested, but that idea appears to have been muted. What happened nearby? Another church got jealous of the new Family Center and just had to build one themself.

All of these millions of dollars on "stuff" and how many missionaries could that support?

I realize that the genie of out of the bottle (so to speak) and in general the Body of Christ will never go back to house churches. But i believe that those groups who meet in store fronts, renting space, and thereby minimizing overhead, are more on the right track that the "stone piles" that churches erect these days.


It is the "stuff" that forces the OT law of tithing to be preached these days. and we have to beware of "unequal yoking" with regards to these buildings.

JMO

:):

[antsinmypants]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
The Gentiles were not allowed to meet in the Synagogues.

Acts refers to believers meeting in homes. It cant be disputed. They didnt go to the Synagogue to worship Jesus, that would have been blasphemey to the Jewish leaders.

The word in Greek for "House" and "Church" means SYNOGOGUE Krispy. Anyone good on their Greek knows it, and according to the "ruling" by the Jeruselem Council, the Goyim who lived by the standards set were in fact allowed to assemble, and DID assemble in the synogogues mentioned in scripture.

Deny it if you will, but if you do your homework you'll see it too.

The RCC Encyclopaedias will even back up what I am saying.

[KrispyKritter]

Romans 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia to Christ.

1 Cor. 16:19 The churches of Asia greet you. Aquila and Priscilla greet you heartily in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

Col. 4:15 Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea, and Nymphas and the church that is in his house.

Phm. 1:2 to the beloved Apphia, Archippus our fellow soldier, and to the church in your house:

I don’t know… sure looks like they were gathering in homes to me. Your books may say otherwise, Ants… But God’s book kinda supports my position.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by antsinmypants
The RCC Encyclopaedias will even back up what I am saying.

You should know me well enough to know that I dont put any stock in RCC materials.

[antsinmypants]

I meant even and somehow "even" Got left off.

I don't trust the RCC documentation either.

but, It's in all the history books about the RCC, even on all the other "christian" History books/encyclopaedias and the secular ones.

[KrispyKritter]

I dont deny they met in the synagogue... scripture says they did. The question is "why?" ... because there was a reason. It was not to worship the risen Lord. They would have been kicked out for that. It was evangelism. Eklesia was happening in the homes.

[antsinmypants]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
I don’t know… sure looks like they were gathering in homes to me. Your books may say otherwise, Ants… But God’s book kinda supports my position.

Some were, but not all.

You know from our last conversation about this that MOST times, House was translated, it was incorrectly done so, as is Church.. and "upper room" was left to be believed it was JUST in a house, whereas it was an upper room of the Temple built specifically for the purpose of gathering for Pentecost.

[antsinmypants]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
I dont deny they met in the synagogue... scripture says they did. The question is "why?" ... because there was a reason. It was not to worship the risen Lord. They would have been kicked out for that. It was evangelism. Eklesia was happening in the homes.

No, overwhelming amounts of scripture dictates they remained in synogogues, and that is EXACTLY where Paul set out to find them.


Acts 18:8 - And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

Acts 15:21 - For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
& Acts 21 {obviously there WERE Goyim in the synogogue}


Acts 9:20 - And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

Acts 13:5 - And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister.

Acts 13:14 - But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
Acts 13:15 - And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.


Acts 13:42 - And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. {obviously there WERE Goyim in the synogogue}


Acts 14:1 - And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed. {obviously there WERE Goyim in the synogogue}


Acts 17:1 - 17 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
...Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons {that leaves plenty of room for that to be anyone other than Jewish}, and in the market daily with them that met with him.


Acts 18:4 - And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. ... And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the
synagogue. ... And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized. {obviously there WERE Goyim in the synogogue}
...Then all the Greeks took Sosthenes, the chief ruler of the
synagogue, and beat him before the judgment seat. And Gallio cared for none of those things.


Acts 18 24-26 ...And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews. ....And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard {they were Greek}, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
{obviously there WERE Goyim in the synogogue}


Acts 19:8 - And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.


Acts 22:19 - And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee: Acts 9:2 - And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

{Everyone means everyone including those of the nations}


Acts 26:11 - And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

{Already established there were not just Jews in the Synogogue}



Ekklesia:

Let us look at the definitions of the Greek word "Ekklesia" which has been incorrectly translated as "Church" in most English translations of the Bible. As we study these definitions, please keep in mind that the sign ":--" simply means that the words following it are other words that the translators used (whether correctly or incorrectly) to translate the referred to word. Therefore, to correctly translate the actual meaning we must use only the definitions given before the ":--" sign.

By following the very simple rule above, we find that the actual meaning of the Greek word "Ekklesia" is an "assembly," a "congregation," or a "calling out."

NASC G1577. ekklaysia, from G1537 and G2564; an assembly, a (religious) congregation:-- assembly(3), church(74), churches(35), congregation(m)(2).

Strongs 1577. ekklesia, ek-klay-see'-ah; from a comp. of G1537 and a der. of G2564; a calling out, i.e. (concr.) a popular meeting, espec. a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Chr. community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):-- assembly, church


The word "Ekklesia" is a very good translation of the Hebrew word "qahal" into the Greek language. So let us look at the Hebrew word "qahal," the word which our Saviour surely used. (He surely did not speak in the Greek language to His Hebrew brethren.)

NASC H6951. qahal, [874c]; from an unused word; assembly, convocation, congregation:-- army*(1), assembly(95), companies(1), company(15), congregation(8), crowd(1), horde(2)

By using the same simple rule of using only the definitions which are given before the ":--" sign, we find that the actual meaning of the Hebrew word "qahal," is an assembly, a convocation, or a congregation.

From the meanings of both the Greek word "Ekklesia" and the Hebrew word "qahal," we can correctly say that YAHshua is building His Assembly, His Congregation, His Convocation, or His Called Out Ones, but not His "church." (Most of the time I will refer to it as "Assembly.")

In the New Covenant Scriptures, we find that this Assembly was referred to as the following:

It was referred to as the "Assemblies of Messiah" one time (Romans 16:16).

It was referred to as the "Assembly of the Firstborn" or "Firstborn Ones" one time (Heb. 12:23).

It was referred to as the "Assembly of the Living Elohim" one time (I Tim. 3:15).

It was referred to as the "Elect of YAHWEH" two times" (Colossians 3:12) & (Titus 1:1).

It was referred to as the "House of YAHWEH" three times (I Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:21; I Peter 4:17).

It was referred to as the "Assembly/Assemblies of YAHWEH" a total of eight times. (Acts 20:28) (I Cor. 1:2) (I Cor. 10:32), (I Cor. 11:22) (I Cor. 15:9) (II Cor. 1:1) (Gal. 1:13) (I Tim. 3:5).

[KrispyKritter]

If all this is true, then why did the Apostles spend so much time explaining how churches were to be organized? If they met in the synagogue, as you suppose, then their was already an order to how they met. The Apostles would not have had a mandate to change the order.

I still disagree.

The mentions of synagogue that you post all pretty much say the apostles were preaching in the synagogue... i.e. evangelizing. Just as I said.

[DeeLeeKay]

The tithe was to the Temple Priests in Israel, not to the synagogues or the churchs.

That is not to say we should not support our local Church that we attend.

I find that most churches are so far from what was Started in the New Testament as to almost be something different.

The Churches(Group of Called out Believers) we also told to help the poor in their congregations. Do we as a whole do this today?

I would rather we stop the large taxation that we have today and start giving more of our tax money to the churches(called out bodies). Taking care of the poor. widowed, and the fatherless children.


I dunno, it seems we have lost our way here. I find the idea of a small fellowship within a home to be more appealing. Why? Decipleship takes much work. Most Churches fail in this one aspect.

The Last church I attended was not very good in this respect. The group of women who decipled me was of the WOF teachings. It so turned me off of the Church as a whole I never attended another one. I was told to stop studing scripture. I needed heart knowledge not head knowledge. Which is the opposite of what the Bible teaches. I was so young in the Lord and so confused. Due to my trust issues steming from my childhood, I literally am terrified of attending a church now.

Where do I give my money? Where I think the Lord Leads me to give. And I do give tremendous amounts of money away.

[KrispyKritter]

Ants... not everyone has the opportunity or ability to be a greek or hebrew scholar, and it is troubling to me when someone says that the English Bibles are bad translations (even tho I believe many of the modern versions are). Are you saying that God was not faithful to preserve His Word among the English speaking people? If the issues you and I are discussing prooves your point that the English is not translated correctly... then it brings in doubt about everything else.

No, I believe you dont need to be a greek or hebrew scholar to understand scripture clearly and soundly. God does not hide the true meaning of His Word from His children. That would be like me talking to my kids in Spanish when they dont understand it, then punishing them when they disobey.

[antsinmypants]

Krispy, you already know my answer, we do have to do our homework.

and- The order that the apostles "assigned" was one already in place in the synogogues. Jewish History already proves that too.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by antsinmypants
The order that the apostles "assigned" was one already in place in the synogogues. Jewish History already proves that too.

Thats simply not true. If that were the case then Paul wasted his time describing how the churches were to conduct themselves when they met. I have a friend who believes as you... that Christians need to adhere to the Torah. He argues the same way you do. Unfortunately for your position... Paul refuted all of that in the book of Romans.

And I've done my homework, thank you.

[antsinmypants]

In going back to Studying Greek, you find that Paul only refuted the adherence to Talmudic law and the legalistic observances of Torah, not the whole of Torah, because if that is true, we should just cast out the OT from our bibles.



As a "pastor" you should have a good ground in Hermaneutics, just to help get the background and truthful understanding of what the bible says..

because the english translation is just that-- A TRANSLATION.. Translations err.. orginals don't.

and paul reiterated because there were people there that DID Not know how to conduct themselves..

It's called discipleship. Alot of Paul's writings are instructional letters because of letters written to him with problems in the congregations he helped get together and on-fire for G-d.

The problem with the L-rd's Supper is a common problem some synogogues have with Passover... as it is the passover meal.

The last cup is the cup of blessing that is often recited in churches around the world "this is my blood" as is the last bit of Matzoh consumed- the one that is said "This is my body" over.

The problem was that people were not coming with the right heart, and people were eating to be eating a meal, not a rememberance.

Alot of the other "instructionals" are the same problems everyone would have with new members. Think about it Krispy.

[glorymj]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
If all this is true, then why did the Apostles spend so much time explaining how churches were to be organized? If they met in the synagogue, as you suppose, then their was already an order to how they met. The Apostles would not have had a mandate to change the order.

I still disagree.

The mentions of synagogue that you post all pretty much say the apostles were preaching in the synagogue... i.e. evangelizing. Just as I said. I agree with you Krispy. I think the scriptures are pretty clear on the matter, myself.:thumb

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Ants... not everyone has the opportunity or ability to be a greek or hebrew scholar, and it is troubling to me when someone says that the English Bibles are bad translations (even tho I believe many of the modern versions are). Are you saying that God was not faithful to preserve His Word among the English speaking people? If the issues you and I are discussing prooves your point that the English is not translated correctly... then it brings in doubt about everything else.

No, I believe you dont need to be a greek or hebrew scholar to understand scripture clearly and soundly. God does not hide the true meaning of His Word from His children. That would be like me talking to my kids in Spanish when they dont understand it, then punishing them when they disobey. Ah.. another little gem of truth. You're on a roll today! :thumb

Originally posted by antsinmypants
As a "pastor" you should have a good ground in Hermaneutics, just to help get the background and truthful understanding of what the bible says..
:hrm

[DeeLeeKay]

Ants,

I have spent the last 2 1/2 years to to see it your way. I have to say, what the Bible says and the judeaizers says are so totally different as to be opposite.

I just can't read the bible that way.

BTW, Hubby studied Greek in College. He has read the entire NT in GREEK and doesn't see it your way. Whom am I to believe?

Not man or women, but the Word of God. I think I will stick with my understanding. It makes more sense to the "SPIRIT" of Paul's writtings.

For you see I am dead to the law, that I may live by the Spirit.

What does dead to the Law mean?

Think about it.

Rom 7:4 Likewise, my brethren, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God.

[RedBall]

Thanks. I hope you don't think I'm trying to antagonize you. I've just never heard before the idea that tithing is something you're not supposed to do anymore. My understanding of Old Testament law is: Although breaking the Ten Commandments no longer is the determining factor of whether or not you go to heaven, we should still obey them for our own good. Similarly, the Old Testament says you shouldn't eat pork or lobster; you're not going to go to hell for breaking that law, but the meat is still unclean to this day, full of parasites, and it's a good idea to stay away from if you want to stay healthy. All I can say about the matter of tithing is, the Lord has blessed me so richly by my faithfulness in giving back to Him that I would be foolish to stop.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by antsinmypants
As a "pastor" you should have a good ground in Hermaneutics, just to help get the background and truthful understanding of what the bible says..

I've never claimed to be a pastor... in fact, I dont believe in the modern understanding of what that word even means.

I do have some grounding in Hermaneutics, as have many great theologians who I can not even put myself on the same level as... and they have come to many of the same conclusions I have. You make it sound as tho if someone is educated, they will believe as you do... and thats simply not true.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by RedBall
Thanks. I hope you don't think I'm trying to antagonize you. I've just never heard before the idea that tithing is something you're not supposed to do anymore. My understanding of Old Testament law is: Although breaking the Ten Commandments no longer is the determining factor of whether or not you go to heaven, we should still obey them for our own good. Similarly, the Old Testament says you shouldn't eat pork or lobster; you're not going to go to hell for breaking that law, but the meat is still unclean to this day, full of parasites, and it's a good idea to stay away from if you want to stay healthy. All I can say about the matter of tithing is, the Lord has blessed me so richly by my faithfulness in giving back to Him that I would be foolish to stop.

No, you havent antagonized me. I'm always open to debate as long as it doesnt become too divisive. Most know that about me.

You raise good points, and the parts of the law you bring up are good for living today... but in principle only. As for tithing tho, I heard Larry Burkett (rest his soul) state several times on the radio that if a person doesnt tithe, they probably are not saved. Thats untrue, unscriptural, and the very definition of legalism.

The theme of the NT is freedom. Freedom from sin, and freedom in Christ. Thats why I believe Paul taught we should give out of joy and the leading of the Spirit, and not out of an obligation.

[RedBall]

Well, I would definitely agree with you there. I believe tithing brings God's blessings, not salvation.

[D'Light]

Is it a building, someones home, a store front or back room? What is truly in our own hearts and that we are lead by the Lord's
will, is what we need to be dicerned with.

In tithing, offerings, givings and helping, is also heart felt and spirit filled. But if you feel 'no' need to help pay for a reasonable overhead, in order for us to worship together, learn the word, join in prayer and reach out to others, there is a conviction missing that should be there. :(:

'Giving in joy' is not, what you feel comforable with giving,and what makes you happy, but a true conviction of what the spirit is moving you to do and Gods will. :):

Our 'church' is a very small, old general store, (that was closed years ago), it is out in the country. I would say approx. 20x40'
We are averaging 140-160 people (I am not counting heads, just getting you to visualize how blessed our church is in this small space). We have people sitting on the front porch with the door open so they can hear. :nod
We are getting ready to build another church, on the same property. It will not be huge, but it will give us some more room. Property, church materials and all ,is already paid for, our pastor does not want to be in debt for something, big and fancy! It will be a simple wood building, alot of the materials are second hand, our church people got together and collected and scrubbed appliances, that were offered to us from and old apartment complex that was being torn down.
We are all giving a helping hand to get this done, we work together in everything we do.

Our church is so filled with the Holy Spirit and love, it is just awesome! We are called, partners, not members, because we are here for one another through Christ.

It is when a church building, decor, etc, become more important than the people, the lost, the word and the mission to help others, is when that 'church' just becomes a 'building', no matter what the walls are made of.

[toddlemom]

Originally posted by Grow with God
Instead, can you send your tithes to, for example, Samaritan's Purse or to a missionary you've adopted?

OUr first 10 percent basically goes to the church. After all, we've got to do our bit to pay for the heat, lights, Sunday morning coffee, carpet cleaning when there's a flood, books, etc. We are there quite often using the lights and flushing the toilet and drinking the coffee :nod so we better pull our weight!

The church has a missions budget, too. Another outreach is a mom's support group open to all moms in the community and the church helps pay the bills for that. So some of our money goes that direction.

Next we personally support missionaries (can't help it, we're related to some of 'em ;): ) :lol ... church camp, and a children's charity. When we sell freezer beef or other farm product to someone in ministry we give them 10 percent off.

Since we are your basic flat-footed Midwesterners, we don't get too cerebral about where the 10 percent goes. It's not a salvation issue.

YSIC
Ann

[D'Light]

Tottlemom: :thumb

[quiet_reverie]

My husband and I started tithing and we ended up with no money for groceries and feelings of bitterness. While our church has started to do landscaping with our funds we had to sell some of our belongings in order to eat.

I feel differently about tithing now...

When I spoke of my feelings a "Christian" told me I wasn't blessed because I didnt give in joy. How was she to know how we felt? We felt happy about it at the time because we were going to trust God to meet our needs. Instead we put ourselves in the hole.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by quiet_reverie
My husband and I started tithing and we ended up with no money for groceries and feelings of bitterness. While our church has started to do landscaping with our funds we had to sell some of our belongings in order to eat.

I feel differently about tithing now...

When I spoke of my feelings a "Christian" told me I wasn't blessed because I didnt give in joy. How was she to know how we felt? We felt happy about it at the time because we were going to trust God to meet our needs. Instead we put ourselves in the hole.

This does happen... we dont hear about it because people feel like they dont have enough faith or whatever, so they are embarrassed to admit it... but this does happen. Try going to the church to ask for financial assistance... I've known people who were faithful "tithers", and then needed help from the church, and were denied while the church put down new carpet.

[rox700]

I'm all for keeping things simple! I have learned to give with God's guidance, whether it be time or money or whatever. He has never led me wrong and I have been blessed many, many times over! These days, too many churches forget to live by faith and are now in trouble because they have turned their back on their first love and have become greedy and selfish and self-centered. I agree with KrispyKritter that we need to K.I.S.S. and let God lead us in everything we do!

[Willo]

I say you should based on a biblical stand point, bring 10% to your local church (storehouse), this is just not a OT thing, in the NT people took their money and laid at the apostles feet, they gave the money to the church leaders (apostles) so I say we should bring our 10% to the church we attend.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by Willo
I say you should based on a biblical stand point, bring 10% to your local church (storehouse), this is just not a OT thing, in the NT people took their money and laid at the apostles feet, they gave the money to the church leaders (apostles) so I say we should bring our 10% to the church we attend.

Then why does every tithing sermon use only OT scripture? I'm not disputing what you say... but when the early Christians "gave", it was not a tithe. And there is a huge difference between the OT storehouse, and the NT church. They dont even compare, and therefore the church should not be referred to as the "Storehouse". It is not run like the storehouse, and does not function as the storehouse. Therefore, it is not the storehouse.

The church was never intended to be a replacement for the OT temple. Paul made this extremely clear in Romans. The reason tithing is harped on so much today is because what we have come to know as "the church" is nothing more than a copy of the temple. This is not to be... and as I have said over and over again, gathering together is to be simple and in homes. Thats where the true koinonia happened, and there is no overhead expenses. Therefore, there is no need to browbeat people about tithing. Tithing isnt necessary.

GIVING is necessary. Giving to those in need. Giving to missionaries and other ministries. Giving from the heart.

Giving as Paul taught.

[D'Light]

I cannot give what I want and need to give, because I am not working right now, and my dh is not christian and does not go to the church. But I give what I can and give by helping in other ways. God understands when we have troubled situations. But I am not going to sit in my church (even though small and simple) and not give anything, we use the electricity, the bathroom, the water and coffee, and expenses continue whether we are in church or not. :nod :nod :nod

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by D'Light
I cannot give what I want and need to give, because I am not working right now, and my dh is not christian and does not go to the church. But I give what I can and give by helping in other ways. God understands when we have troubled situations. But I am not going to sit in my church (even though small and simple) and not give anything, we use the electricity, the bathroom, the water and coffee, and expenses continue whether we are in church or not. :nod :nod :nod

I commend you, and you are right on the money (no pun intended). However, I need to ask... where did you get the impression that any of us are against giving to whatever fellowship a believer attends?? It's not the giving we are speaking against... it's the legalism involved with the issue of "tithing". Legalism being putting believers under an OT law.

Giving as Paul taught is giving out of the leading of the Holy Spirit, and not by a "law". It is giving without being compelled, or giving out of a feeling of guilt. Look at it this way... if you have kids do you want your kids to give you a gift because they feel they have to? Or because they want to show you they love you?

Giving by the leading of the Holy Spirit involves being so intimately in tune with God that He can speak to you about where to give and to whom to give. Too many times we would much rather depend on a "law" to tell us what to do. Thats not a relationship... and it's not what God wants.

[D'Light]

KK

I agree, I don,t think I said, that I feel you have to give 10%, sometimes I give alot less, most of the time. But I said I would like to be able to give more, spirit lead. I know that alot of pastors push 10% or more and then that is not enough for them yet! If you are referring to scripture, it does state to give with the heart, not grudgingly.:thumb

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by D'Light
KK

I agree, I don,t think I said, that I feel you have to give 10%, sometimes I give alot less, most of the time. But I said I would like to be able to give more, spirit lead. I know that alot of pastors push 10% or more and then that is not enough for them yet! If you are referring to scripture, it does state to give with the heart, not grudgingly.:thumb

I always refer to scripture... it's the only guide we have!