Horse Racing

[Hyssop]

Since it promotes the sport, which is based on gambling, is it a bad thing for a Christian- as in bad witness, to own racehorses.
As many know, the racing world can be pretty dark behind the scenes.

Would it be sort of like owning a bar or selling drugs? Do you think it would be not pleasing to the Lord if a person had racehorses and was involved in the sport? Any Biblical answers appreciated. :wave

[antsinmypants]

I worked with an Ex-racehorse.

That's a tough call.

But- was gambling condemned in the bible?


It's whether or not this person is in on the mob scene, cheating, lying and drugging his horse/horses to death -- the whole "appearance of evil" thing.

:thumb

[Hyssop]

The behind the scenes I was thinking of was in the sense of drugs ect. (human)

I looked at it as a conflict of interest, and could be construed as causing people to stumble, gambling could also be looked at as stealing- trying to get other peoples money, counting on luck instead of God to provide.... It does have the appearance of evil overall... Racetracks are home to all kinds of unsavory activities.

Thanks Ants!
( I've known/owned a few race-ex. TB racehorses too)
Off topic: Why don't you use all the letters (G-d, L-rd ect.?)

[KrispyKritter]

I dont follow horse racing... so maybe there are things I dont know about it. But it would seem to me that it is a sport like any other sport. Football, NASCAR, baseball... all of them promote gambling to some extent. Does that make it wrong for a Christian to get involved in any of those other sports? I dont think so.

Now... if you were to ask me if a Christian should own a casino... thats a whole different thing.

[Hyssop]

Unlike football ect. Horse racing is all about gambling, without "betting" there is no racing.

The drugs behind the scenes at race tracks and drinking ect. is pretty bad.

Don't think Kentucky Derby, think fair tracks. Another thing I'll add is race horse people get pretty addicted to the sport.

[Mommy2KandM]

I was reading the first chapter of Daniel this morning in my Max Lucado study bible. It made me think of my husband because he is a strong christian.. but is a black Jack, craps dealer for his work at a casino here. Many Christians don't see how a christian could do that for a job.. but we truly see God's hand in it. He gave Toby this job.. it was obvious and He has used him so much to witness for the Lord in this job.

Anyway... here is some of what the devotional part had to say about the first chapter of Daniel.

Observation: It is possible to be obedient to God even when surrounded by people who are disobedient to his Word.

inspiration (parts of it) Daniel's life in the palace more closely resembles that of the ancient character Joseph, who also rose to a position of prominence in a foreign government. As this chapter underscores, Daniel achieved success without bending his own principles of integrity.

And in this book the prophet Daniel shows that a person can keep pure even while working within a tyrannical regime. For at least 66 years, Daniel served pagan kings. with great diligence and resourcefulness. yet he never once compromised his faith. Even when threatened with death. The bible offers no better model of how to love among people who do not share or respect your beliefs. (from discovering God by Philip Yancey)


Most christians love Daniel.. see him as a good and Godly man. Yet he spent his life serving under a pagan king. But he did that while not compromising his faith or his God. Just think if Daniel had said no God to the place he put him.. No God that is a pagan king.. I can't serve or work for him. Think of all God accomplished though Daniel because he kept his Faith and God while working among pagans.

It made me think of my husband this morning because often christians tell him he is wrong or should not work where he works... but I see him as a Daniel type in this sense..... he is working under a pagan king (casino) but all the while serving his God and staying true to his faith. God is using him because he is surrounded by the un-godly yet being faithful to God.

[antsinmypants]

Hyssop-

My hometown is sustained by Polo ponies and the horse racing industry (Aiken, SC- the proving grounds for the KY Derby).

I still see no problem so long as the person isn't doing anything Biblically wrong.


I don't use the vowels in HaShem's name- because it is holy, and If it were to be printed out (as I do with some/most of my research), it would have to be destroyed by fire.. it's a respect thing.

[cindyw]

Originally posted by Hyssop
Another thing I'll add is race horse people get pretty addicted to the sport.


:nod I have a dear FIL who is...........

[Hyssop]

Thanks for explaining that Ants :thumb

Reason I started this thread is we have been thinking about
purchasing a young prospect and getting more involved, but although I know our motives are pure (and I think we might be a good witness in that realm) we have talked about salvation to our racing /trainer friends... kind of a lost crowd too.

Another is if it is very good stewardship of finaces in this late date. It would be a recreational thing. We have other horses.

I still feel it might be a conflict of interest in my heart. It really seems so trivial. Bigger things to think about, just had been wondering about this subject.

Thanks Kristina for the study info :): I used to do my radio study w/him too! I think we must be long lost cousins :cool

Hyssop

[bopeep1909]

Yes,gambling is condemned in the Bible.<><

[Mommy2KandM]

Originally posted by bopeep1909
Yes,gambling is condemned in the Bible.<><

can you give a scripture??

[toddlemom]

I've got two thoughts here ...
one is, oh, yeah, gambling ... hmm :confused
the other is ... it's got to be a mission field!

We sell hay to lots of horse owners, and also, I used to own and show Arabians (small potatoes ... very small potatoes) and used to be an instructor/manager at a therapeutic riding stable. So, I've been around horses an awful lot.

DH and I now joke around taht "you don't have to be dysfunctional to be a horse person, but it helps ..." :rolleyes ...to the point that we are having doubts about teaching the kids to ride because we don't want them intensely involved in it at an impressionable age.

Anyway ... I think it is definitely a mission field! The people we have coming to the farm to buy hay are just so totally lost ... it is really an eye-opener.

DH wanted to be an evangelist or missionary ... seems like the mission field is coming to him!

If this horse means you have a connection to some unsaved people ... maybe you might pursue it.

My thoughts ... your mileage may vary!
YSIC
Ann

I wonder sometimes if every unsaved person is surrounded by a network of Christians, each contributing a little to the big decision! :thumb

[Hyssop]

Originally posted by toddlemom

We sell hay to lots of horse owners, and also, I used to own and show Arabians (small potatoes ... very small potatoes) and used to be an instructor/manager at a therapeutic riding stable. So, I've been around horses an awful lot.

DH and I now joke around taht "you don't have to be dysfunctional to be a horse person, but it helps ..."
YSIC
Ann
.................................................................................................
Especially Arab people (just kidding, I like Arabians, hehe that
the expected response right? lol.)
I know what you mean, I grew up involved in horses, cutting horses. My folks were AQHA and APHA breeders. We have lots of friends involved in the horse industry-breeding, training, racing, showing. A lost and dysfunctional crowd. We have jokingly called it a missionary field, being involved in livestock brings you in contact w/lots of people. My vet friend uses her large animal practice for that purpose- they even have a Christian Veterinarian organization which she belongs to w/a magazine and everything .... Our son is getting involved in Rodeo and I'm torn because there is a lot of negative influence in that crowd. I would love to get more involved in the racing, just have my unease of doing so.
....................................................................................................

I wonder sometimes if every unsaved person is surrounded by a network of Christians, each contributing a little to the big decision! :thumb

Sometimes I think so :): Thanks for the input!

edit: to try to make smaller? :confused

[bopeep1909]

http://www.equip.org/free/DE209.htm

STATEMENT DE209

AMERICA'S NEW LOVE AFFAIR WITH GAMBLING:
Should Christians Be Concerned?

by Rex M. Rogers

Summary

If baseball once was America’s national pastime, it’s been replaced by a $550 billion-per-year obsession — gambling. Gambling feeds the self-indulgent, instant-gratification mindset that has plagued America in recent decades. Beneath its glittery surface lurk the parallel tragedies of increasing addiction and a decreasing devotion to spirituality. Most Christian churches have been silent about gambling. Scripture is not. Even without a direct commandment, "Thou shalt not gamble," the Bible offers numerous principles that militate against the practice. Informed Christians will challenge such social evils as state-sponsored gambling and the use of gambling for fundraising. Gambling is a bankrupt abandonment of reason and religion, and in the long run everyone loses.

Mark Twain shrewdly observed that "the best throw at dice is to throw them away."1 Americans no longer agree. Gambling is the newest Great American Pastime.

State lotteries began in 1964 with New Hampshire, and now bring in $30 billion per year in 37 states and the District of Columbia.2 Some 55 million Americans play lotteries once per month, spending $88 million per day — more than they spend per day on groceries.3

What began as a trickle with state lotteries became a flash flood in 1988 when Native American tribes began taking advantage of the Federal Indian Gaming Regulatory Act, which permitted them to operate casinos on tribal lands. Nearly 300 Indian-run casinos now exist in 28 states with 186 of the 557 federally recognized tribes participating. About 30 casinos are opening per year,4 and additional tribes are vying for a stake in what some have called "the new buffalo."5

Gambling expenditures now top $550 billion per year.6 That’s more money than Americans spend per year on films, books, amusements, and music entertainment combined. It’s about $1.5 billion per day or an increase of roughly 3,000 percent in the past 20 years.7

With the exception of horse and dog racing, gambling is increasing in every form. Riverboat, dockside, and other off-shore gambling enterprises, including cruise ships, are being proposed in several states as "limited" gambling.

Off-track, parimutuel, jai alai, keno, and video betting are also increasing. So are raffles and bingo. Business Week observed that gambling outlets are becoming "almost ubiquitous" as "mob-affiliated bookies and numbers runners are being supplanted by state governments, charitable and religious groups, and blue-chip entertainment-leisure conglomerates that say they’re in the ‘gaming’ business."8




THE VICE OF CHOICE

Some 95 percent of American citizens have gambled at some time in their lives. About 82 percent have played the lottery, 75 percent have played slot machines, 50 percent have bet on horse or dog races, 44 percent have gambled with cards, and 34 percent gamble via bingo. Approximately 26 percent have bet on sports events. About 74 percent of the American adult population have gambled in casinos. Polls indicate that at least 89 percent of the American population approves of casino gambling.9

The acceptance of gambling into everyday life is a historic shift in cultural philosophy. University of Nevada, Las Vegas, professor William N. Thompson observed that "the era of expanded legalized gambling has coincided with a trend toward increased permissiveness in society. There certainly is a connection between attitudes about lifestyle, sex, pornography — even abortion and occasional drug use — and attitudes toward gambling. The notion that government has no business in our bedrooms relates to the notion that government has no business telling us how to spend our leisure time and our own money as long as we are doing so without coercion or harm to others."10

The ethic of self-denial, saving, and capital accumulation is being replaced with a hedonistic consumerism, what Christopher Lasch called the "culture of narcissism."11 Deferred gratification is shelved in favor of instant demand. Americans want more, and they want it now.

Many Americans no longer work for future earthly or spiritual rewards. They only consume and receive less and less satisfaction from it.12

The philosophy of gambling undercuts one’s ability and desire to defer gratification in order to accomplish a goal. Individual enterprise, thrift, effort, and self-denial are set aside for chance gain, immediate satisfaction, and self-indulgence. In this sense, gambling exemplifies a reversal of American values.13




THIRD TIME’S A CHARM?

Whittier Law School gambling expert I. Nelson Rose believes a third wave of legalized gambling is washing over the United States.14 The first wave began in colonial America when lottery management companies took their place among the largest early-nineteenth-century businesses.15 A healthy economy together with lottery corruption contributed to the decline of legal lotteries by the 1820s.

The second wave of legal gambling began when Southern states looked for revenue after the Civil War. Gambling was a major diversion in late-nineteenth-century Western gold and silver mining camps. Legalized gambling’s second wave of popularity began losing strength in the 1880s with the Louisiana State Lottery scandal (in which local lottery fundraisers evolved into mail fraud and criminal interstate commerce involving corrupt government officials, intrigue, and murder). By 1894, state lotteries were condemned by law, and 36 states adopted antilottery text in their state constitutions.16

While gambling has been legal in (and largely limited to) Nevada since 1931, the third wave of legalized gambling in the United States began in 1964 with the inception of the New Hampshire State Lottery. By 1984, a majority of states had legalized lotteries.17

Bingo was legalized in 1937 in Rhode Island. Some 46 states, the District of Columbia, and all the Canadian provinces now have legalized bingo.18

Horse race betting is legal in 42 states and all Canadian provinces, dog race betting in 19 states, and jai alai games in four states. All 10 Canadian provinces and 48 American states now permit some form of legal gambling. By the year 2000, some experts have predicted that 40 percent of U.S. households will be participating in legalized commerical gambling.19

Legalized commercial gambling is now growing at breakneck speed, spurred by cash–hungry governments, gambling industry promotion of "gaming" as entertainment, and the appeal of new, high-tech video gambling. Some antigambling counselors believe that "decades of church–sponsored gambling [have] also tended to lend approval to games of chance."20

Only two states still maintain a no-legal-gambling policy: Hawaii and Utah. Hawaii debates the matter periodically. While 60 percent of Hawaiians polled favor a lottery, enough citizens are concerned about damaging the state’s image as an island paradise that lotteries and other commercial gambling are consistently rejected.21

Eugene Martin Christiansen, a gambling industry consultant, believes America’s new love affair with gambling "is part of a fundamental change that is irreversible at this point because the country is changing with fewer people going to church, more older people with time and money on their hands, and especially, with state lottery advertising campaigns that make it seem that buying lottery tickets is almost a patriotic duty."22




LOSING THE BET

Gambling is a spiritual and financial timebomb in a pretty package, and no demographic group is immune to the social pathologies associated with it.23 Compulsive gambling is increasing rapidly in all population groups, even among teens.

The fastest growing "addiction" among high school and college-age young people is problem gambling, with as much as seven percent or 1.3 million teens considered addicted. Dr. Durand Jacobs, a pioneer in the treatment of problem gambling, believes the rate among teens is at least 10 percent, about twice the rate among adults.24

Howard Schaffer, director of the Harvard Medical School Center for Addiction Studies, predicted, "We will face in the next decade or so more problems with youth gambling than we’ll face with drug use."25 The National Institute of Mental Health notes that "addiction" to gambling is growing fastest among teenagers.26 Suicide rates are twice as high among teenagers with gambling problems,27 and teenagers are nearly two-and-one-half times as likely as adults to become compulsive gamblers.28

Durand Jacobs noted that "public understanding of gambling is where our understanding of alcoholism was some 40 or 50 years ago. Unless we wake up soon to gambling’s darker side, we’re going to have a whole new generation lost to this addiction."29

From lotteries in the 1960s to casinos in the 1990s, the gambling industry has grown more rapidly and more explosively than any business in American history. Legalized commercial gambling is now one of the largest industries in the U.S. leisure economy.30




IT’S NOT IN THE CARDS

While the tidal wave of legalized commercial gambling has engulfed the country, the Christian community has greeted this development with a deafening silence. A few local battles have taken place, and during the past two years, Christian leaders such as Gary Bauer, James Dobson, D. James Kennedy, and Ralph Reed have begun to speak out, but so far gambling has garnered very little national attention.

Several reasons may explain why Christians have been rather slow to respond to the spread of legalized commercial gambling:

1.) The conservative Christian "agenda" is packed, focusing on issues like abortion, pornography, crime, gun control, sex education, creationism, "family values," and prayer in public schools.

2. Conservative Christians, particularly those who call themselves fundamentalists, have been historically reticent to "get involved in politics."

3.There are no direct biblical commands declaring gambling a sin. And unlike narcotics, which exercise an immediate negative impact upon the user, the harmful effects of habitual gambling take longer to reveal themselves. Moral arguments against gambling are, therefore, more difficult to develop. In a recent survey, George Barna found that only 28 percent of "born again" Christians believe casinos should be illegal in the United States.31

4.) Christians are just as materialistic as everyone else. The lure of quick riches entices Christians to gamble too.

For these reasons as well as others, theological disapproval does not always translate to social or political opposition. Christians seem to be just as uninformed and unconcerned as everyone else.




THUS SAITH THE LORD

There is no "Eleventh Commandment" in the Bible saying "Thou shalt not gamble." However, gambling violates at least five doctrines of Scripture: the sovereignty of God, stewardship, covetousness, brotherly love, and God’s instruction not to be brought under the power of anything.




Sovereignty of God

Belief in luck and belief in a sovereign God are mutually exclusive, for if an omniscient, omnipotent Creator God exists then luck makes no sense. Things don’t "just happen." Nothing — including the secondary causes operative in the universe (the "laws" of nature and human choices) — happens outside of God’s will and disposition. So belief in God not only dispells any idea of luck, it also rejects any idea of chance as a determining factor in natural events or people’s destiny. "Depending upon luck and chance is a philosophy which deifies an impersonal view of life and of reality."32 Any trust in luck rather than God is therefore a form of idolatry.

What appears to be chance to the finite human mind is known to a sovereign God. Casting of lots, for example, is a biblical illustration not of gambling (for no money or other value was placed at risk in hopes of greater gain) but of individuals trusting a sovereign God to direct the "chance" disposition or direction of the lay of the lots. People used "chance" to understand God’s will. Their faith was not in chance but in God. But belief in chance as fate stands in direct opposition to a purposeful creation, ordered and directed by the Sovereign God of the universe. Chance without God is the personification of anarchy and nihilism. God controls, not chance (Amos 3:6).33

The idea that events are ultimately disposed merely by chance is akin to superstition. Pagan superstition is a violation of God’s will. Worshipping the gods of luck and chance is an offense to His character. Gambling is a kind of "secularized divination."34 It promotes a world view in direct contradiction to biblical Christianity.




Stewardship

God says in Proverbs that "he who works his land will have abundant food, but he who chases fantasies lacks judgment" (12:11). People often chase fantasies, yielding to the lure of quick riches, the "something-for-nothing" enchantment. But God gives people time, talent, and treasure with an expectation of accountability (Matt. 25:14–30). The Bible teaches that we are to use our God–given wealth to support our families, God’s work, the government, and the needy.

Gambling can undermine the foundations of Christian stewardship — work, rationality, and responsibility. But work is both a command and a gift of God (2 Thess. 3:6–12). And reason is an essential part of being human. "Irresponsibility is man’s abdication of his humanity. We are made to be moral decision-making creatures."35




Covetousness

Gambling feeds covetousness, the opposite of God’s call for contentment (Phil. 4:11–12). It masquerades as harmless fun while it eventually sucks the dollars and sometimes the life out of those who embrace it (1 Tim. 6:6–10). The basis of all antigambling legislation is the necessity of curbing or controlling covetousness, the very natural and selfish desire to get something for nothing.36




Love Thy Neighbor

Gambling creates a condition in which one person’s gain is necessarily many other persons’ loss. As such, gambling militates against brotherly love, justice, and mercy (Matt. 22:37–40; Mic. 6:8).

Gambling substitutes love of self or love of money for love of neighbor (Rom. 14:21; 15:1; 1 Tim. 6:6–10). Martin Luther said that "money won by gambling is not without self seeking and love of self is not without sin."37 Gambling, unlike legitimate business practices wherein both parties gain, creates a condition in which individuals are willingly duped of their resources in a something-for-nothing exchange.

To take from one’s neighbor in an unfair exchange is not love, to set up a system in which those least able to afford it lose their livelihood is not justice, and to continue operating a system that exploits human weakness while promoting personal pleasure and profit over others’ pain and loss is not mercy. While it is true that the legitimate marketplace can operate without regard for the Christian value of love of neighbor, this is not an essential and unavoidable character of business. In gambling, love of neighbor is not only impossible, it is systematically suppressed.

GOVERNMENT’S GOLDEN GOOSE

Governments are looking for easy money, so they sell their souls for a promise of riches. Whether government should enhance its revenues with gambling monies — the losses of its citizens — is a moral question, not just an economic one, no matter why people gamble. So far, except for a few scattered antigambling victories, money has bested morality in most contests for legislative hearts.

State government-sponsored gambling turns state government into a huckster. And legalization is followed by legitimation. Gambling is being socially legitimized by virtue of its governmental sanction. A one-time social evil is being transformed into acceptable social policy.

Governments facing budget deficits and antitax sentiment see gambling revenues as a painless panacea. States promote gambling, then use the revenues as a supplementary, "voluntary" tax. Gambling interests sell commercial gambling as a way of salvaging Rust Belt industrial cities.39 Then they lure legislators and voters by associating gambling with some noble purpose like public education or better roads. Such arguments provide a politically palatable "moral justification" that helps dilute or mute opposition to gambling.

In practice, however, state legislatures time and again have refused to stick to promises of earmarked funds. Instead they let gambling revenues pay for promised public works and use general funds for other purposes. Gambling revenues become just another part of the state’s giant budgetary pie.40

In the United States, gambling operations vigorously promote their games, and states are counted among the owners and promoters. There are no governmental restrictions on advertising, free alcohol as a stimulus to gambling, or access to credit on gambling casino premises.41

States do not simply accommodate peoples’ desire to gamble. They encourage gambling. In doing so, states foster superstitious, magical thinking.42

Today, gambling is no longer just a periodic, if questionable, leisure activity fulfilling the purposes of a few individuals. Gambling is being changed into routine behavior that serves the economic ends of casino operators and state governments. The gambling industry now provides a transformed set of more aggressive, commercially profitable games aimed at a mass public.

State-sanctioned gambling has become little more than a set of gambling opportunities designed to produce maximum losses from the maximum number of people. Government has a vested interest in the losses of consumers. This together with the fact that, with a very few exceptions, no wealth is created by gambling means that state governments are no longer acting as representatives of the public interest.43 State governments have joined the gambling industry in mass civic exploitation.








CasiNO!


Gambling demands that the gambler abandon reason. It’s a venue of superstition, a religion-free religion. In a time when valuelessness is valued, gambling fits. In a culture that believes the universe began by chance and that existence and morality are nothing more than the "luck of the draw," gambling is oddly logical. Gambling is the perfect postmodern pastime.

Gambling is correlated with social pessimism. It flourishes in cultures that no longer believe they can influence their present, much less their future. Gambling blossoms from a mood of despair, powerlessness, and hopelessness. Life is chance — a crap shoot.

Gambling is a metaphor for the current cultural Zeitgeist. It grows out of our cultural philosophy. Americans believe in a world of undefined chaos.

Every civilization in the past 500 years has sought to curtail gambling or its effects.49 Why do Americans think we’re immune to the hazards of gambling? It is because Americans have embraced moral relativism, the postmodern belief in "mobile truths." Increasing numbers of Americans no longer believe in absolute truth, in right and wrong. If God exists, He must not have anything to say to people. They reject Him, they reject His Word, and they reject His morality. The only thing left is uncertainty — and luck.

For many Americans gambling has become a surrogate religion; a pathological hope; a concession to life based on luck; an admission that there is nothing to life but determinism, fatalism, nihilism.

But gambling is rabbit’s foot religion. It’s postmodern paganism. Gambling asks people to play the odds, and always, in the long run, gambling wins.

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by Mommy2KandM
I was reading the first chapter of Daniel this morning in my Max Lucado study bible. It made me think of my husband because he is a strong christian.. but is a black Jack, craps dealer for his work at a casino here. Many Christians don't see how a christian could do that for a job.. but we truly see God's hand in it. He gave Toby this job.. it was obvious and He has used him so much to witness for the Lord in this job.

It made me think of my husband this morning because often christians tell him he is wrong or should not work where he works... but I see him as a Daniel type in this sense..... he is working under a pagan king (casino) but all the while serving his God and staying true to his faith. God is using him because he is surrounded by the un-godly yet being faithful to God.

I cant (and dont want to) judge your husband... so I wont. But I would like to point out that Daniel did work and serve under a pagan king. However, he did not do anything that would have been considered sinful, or cause others to sin. In fact, he rebelled against the king in order to serve God... and thats what got him chucked into the lions den.

[Hyssop]

:freaked Thanks Bo-Peep, Interesting article. I think that the earlier advice someone (Ants?) had about staying away from what has an appearance of evil was good Biblical advice.

I think I knew the answer before I started the thread, we have not had peace about this anyway. There is a Christian organization that raises race horses for charity, (I always wondered to myself, isn't that a conflict of interest?) but then I was like" well, maybe it isn't so bad...."

It is a worldly thing. Idolatry, was an interesting point too. The stewardship of money and the "luck" thing had crossed my mind. Hmmm, I sure appreciate the input everyone. Makes one think alright!

Kristina, I think that your husbands job is a different matter, and I'm not talking about that when I say that owning racehorses might not be a good thing. I'm sure you guys have been prayerful about his occupation and God could be using him in that realm somehow. I know how concerned you are about pleasing God sister. :): ((Hugs))

Hyssop

[bopeep1909]

I used to own and show Arabians


I love horses. Just to think we will be riding back to earth with God in the second coming on white horses. I will guess that they will be the most awesome horses ever! :thumb

[antsinmypants]

BoPeep,

How would you explain away the Ummin and Thummin-- which were used by the preists of YHVH to "Gamble" on hard decisions-- that G-d used to give them the right answers to hard cases that were brought to them to judge?

The disciples drew straws, as did SEVERAL other prophets in the Bible-- which is also considered gambling.

Only place it is referenced in an ill fashion is the roman soldiers gambling at the feet of Y'shua as he was on the execution stake.

You can gamble (like eating, having sex or drinking) in moderation.
But if you have a problem, you shouldn't do it.

Stewardship? so long as you take care of the rest of your finances, set a limit to what you gamble and steer clear of cheating, drugs and illicit sex- you should be fine.

As for racing horses for charity- I have heard of this, and from what I have heard- it is a good thing

[toddlemom]

I agree with Hyssop that the horse industry is a mission field. It seems like a lot of peopel interested in "alternative" lifestyles, New AGe and so on are now drawn to horses. And it seems like people interested in Arabian horses are naturally curious about Islam.

As far as rodeo vs. racing or showing ... I thought the rodeo crowd would be more down to earth, but I don't know. The most far-out people we have dealt with have actually been dressage riders. (If anyone here is a Dressage Queen ... well ... sorry if I stepped on any toes!) There seems to be a conglomeration of New Age, GLBT, feminist and pagan theories going on in the horse industry that leaves me :confused

I had to repent of the pride that I had in the horses and my skills. Of course, looking back ... I don't think I was that skilled :lol A lot of envy and covetuousness in the mix, too. My folks couldn't afford to buy me a push-button horse, so I tried to retrain problem horses and start young ones. What was I thinking! It left me envying the kids whose parents did not mind getting a second mortgage to buy a show horse for their daughter.

I still think the best, most noble use for horses is in therapeutic riding, but, you have to be careful there, too. Lots of New Age stuff gets mixed in somehow.

JUst so you know, Bopeep... when we get to Heaven... that little white ARabian with the pink nose ... he's mine! :lol That's Prince and he died two years ago. He died of a broken heart shortly after the love of his life, a Thoroughbred mare named Strider, died of Cushing's syndrome. (Not literally, but he did collapse and die suddenly about six weeks after we lost her.) They were so close they even ate grain out of the same trough. She was blind and appointed him as her guide horse. And if he left her side, boy was she :yell and let him know about it!

As you can see, this thread hit a nerve!
YSIC
Ann

[Hyssop]

:cry Oh ((HUG)) I know how it is :cry I have the sweetest most tear jerking story of my daughters beloved little pony and the day we lost him (complications of melenoma) And our sons old thoroughbred gelding that we had to put down last year. If horses go to heaven, there is a gray mare (flea bit gray) waiting up there for me! My childhood horse that died from cancer (I had her 16 years) oh now you got me going, sniff. memories..

Horse crazy is a term that has been used in my life, and once it is in your blood.... it is tough to cure. Both of our kids are affected with it. Seriously I think it borders on idolatry, I'm quite careful.

About cowboys, I know & have known many quite well, small time cowboys/ropers, ranch cowboys are pretty much down to earth, many are also drinkers and almost all I've ever known have been womanizers. Horse shoers have got to be the worst though :rolleyes
Dressage ladies :pound You hit it right on the mark, too funny. Disclaimer: Not all of them though :B:



:wave

[bopeep1909]

Someone wanted scripture on gambling regarding my previous statement I made and I gave it to them. You can get want you want out of the information I posted.<><

[Mommy2KandM]

Originally posted by bopeep1909
Someone wanted scripture on gambling regarding my previous statement I made and I gave it to them. You can get want you want out of the information I posted.<><

Do you mean the quote that says it is not in the bible???

THUS SAITH THE LORD

There is no "Eleventh Commandment" in the Bible saying "Thou shalt not gamble." However, gambling violates at least five doctrines of Scripture: the sovereignty of God, stewardship, covetousness, brotherly love, and God’s instruction not to be brought under the power of anything.

Anything can be a sin if used wrong or abused. Food can fit that description, alcohol, drugs, baseball cards, clothes... etc.........

Gambling in and of itself is not a sin. Hubby and I can spend $25 on a movie and a snack. Sit there and not talk to each other for 2 hours. Or we can take that same $25 and play nickle slots and laugh and talk for 2 hours. We have no intention of leaving with the $25 either way. No we don't do it every week.. probably 2-3 times a year. We don't violate any of the 5 doctrines of scripture listed in your article when we do it either.

[bopeep1909]

Do you mean the quote that says it is not in the bible???


That is correct and I am also referring to the quote below.You can take scripture and turn it around so that it suits you and you can make all kinds of excuses so you can do what YOU want to do and not what Gods word is asking you to do to be in accordance with his will. And what does drinking,eating and having sex have to do with gambling?



How would you explain away the Ummin and Thummin-- which were used by the preists of YHVH to "Gamble" on hard decisions-- that G-d used to give them the right answers to hard cases that were brought to them to judge?

The disciples drew straws, as did SEVERAL other prophets in the Bible-- which is also considered gambling.

Only place it is referenced in an ill fashion is the roman soldiers gambling at the feet of Y'shua as he was on the execution stake.

You can gamble (like eating, having sex or drinking) in moderation.
But if you have a problem, you shouldn't do it.

[Mommy2KandM]

Originally posted by bopeep1909
That is correct and also the quote below

huh :confused Maybe I am not understanding you. Your original quote was... Yes,gambling is condemned in the Bible.<>< Then you post an article that is a good one.. but states in the article that it is NOT in the bible. And then you say that I am correct that the quote saying it is not in the bible is your proof that it is in the bible???

I don't think Ants was giving biblical evidence that gambling is a sin in the bible. I think she was giving more evidence that it was not. But how one does it and if they personally have a problem with it. The addiction.. etc.. is the sin. Not the gambling itself.

[Mommy2KandM]

Originally posted by bopeep1909
That is correct and I am also referring to the quote below.You can take scripture and turn it around so that it suits you and you can make all kinds of excuses so you can do what YOU want to do and not what Gods word is asking you to do to be in accordance with his will.

That is true for anything... but that is not what I am doing with those Scriptures and gambling. Food would be a larger problem for me then gambling any-day! And I am not one to shy away from what the HS is asking me to do because it is not what I want to do. I am wearing a head-covering in church because I feel it is scriptural and the HS revealed to me that it is what I am to do. I sure feel a bit weird being the ONLY person in my WHOLE church doing so. But I am doing it because it is what God wants me to do, Not what I am 100% comfortable with at this moment. So I know about giving up things or making uncomfortable decisions at the request of my Lord.

I am totally open to upon deeper study of the word and conviction of the HS to change my view on gambling. But at this point what I have read and how it is done in my life does not fit the criteria laid out in your article.

[bopeep1909]

Yes, I can not say that I am free of sin when it comes to food either. I like to eat as well as anyone:D: I think you can have a glass of wine occasionally as well, the bible does not state that drinking is a sin but getting drunk is. God himself drank wine. Sex is not a sin unless it is outside of marriage. ALOT of people today are living together out of marriage and that is a sin.If you want to cover your head out of respect for Christ while you are in church then go for it!:nod <><

[toddlemom]

Originally posted by Hyssop
:cry Oh ((HUG)) I know how it is :cry I have the sweetest most tear jerking story of my daughters beloved little pony and the day we lost him (complications of melenoma) And our sons old thoroughbred gelding that we had to put down last year. If horses go to heaven, there is a gray mare (flea bit gray) waiting up there for me! My childhood horse that died from cancer (I had her 16 years) oh now you got me going, sniff. memories..

Horse crazy is a term that has been used in my life, and once it is in your blood.... it is tough to cure. Both of our kids are affected with it. Seriously I think it borders on idolatry, I'm quite careful.

About cowboys, I know & have known many quite well, small time cowboys/ropers, ranch cowboys are pretty much down to earth, many are also drinkers and almost all I've ever known have been womanizers. Horse shoers have got to be the worst though :rolleyes
Dressage ladies :pound You hit it right on the mark, too funny. Disclaimer: Not all of them though :B:



:wave

Horse shoers! Oh, boy, another topic!! The best one we had was no womanizer, though. He was Old Order Mennonite and scheduled us on neighborhood days when he could drive his buggy. He also had a dairy farm so while he was trimming my horses we talked about cows! :rofl

Conversations like ... we'd like more heel on this one, guess we'll have to work on that ... how many are you milking now? Are you still feeding wrapped round bales? How do you like them?

Sometimes he drove his Standardbred stallion and our TB mare got so fired up! (The Cushings syndrome had ALL of her hormones cranked up!) :eek

As far as womanizing goes ... there's such an imbalanced ratio, more women than men involved in horses, that any guy that shows the slightest interest in horses has many of the women falling all over themselves. (I keep telling my single brother to take riding lessons but what does he do ... takes flying lessons instead. Yeah, great way to meet girls!)

YSIC
Ann

[Hyssop]

:pound

Okay, well the best horseshoer we ever had was a recovered Irish alchoholic and all he ever talked about was his AA meetings, bless his heart!

Yeah, if guys only knew how many ladies dig horsemen they would be all playing John Wayne in a minute.

(Most women think they want a cowboy, until they get one that is!) :laugh

[toddlemom]

Oh, man ... cowboys ... you probably see the real thing there in Texas, is it? My husband has the cowboy look, but definitely a farmer outlook ;): He doesn't even own a cattle prod. (Even though we are finishing more beef steers every year.)

We sold our last horse and we're taking a sabbatical from horses. We turned the box stalls into a brooder area and soon to be hen coops and might turn the round pen into either a dry lot for hogs, or range area for the chickens.

I got thrown real hard about 3 years ago, had a concussion and torn muscles ... (had to go to the ER, CAT scan, X-rays, MRI's ... sigh ...) after that I lost my enthusiasm for riding. I scare my riding friends to death because they are afraid they will end up like me, I guess. I found out the hard way there IS life beyond horses.

So ... what did you decide the race horse prospect?

I do definitely think horse owners are almost an "unreached tribe" in some ways. And if you've got a witness there, that's great!

YSIC
Ann