Weird Rapture Question

[Wileyzmuse]

If a woman is pregnant during the rapture, but she is unsaved, will the baby disappear from her womb and go to be with Jesus?

[cameron222]

It may have to do with God knowing in advance whether or not the baby would have been saved once it reached the age of accountability.

Remember in the flood.....there were no babies spared. All were wicked except for Noah and his family.

[RJs here]

have thought about this'n before too.....


all I can say is: :confused





filing in the "trusting God to do what is right" category!! :D:


;):

[Mercy4Me]

I know the majority on the board doesnt agree with me, but I consider unborn babies, babies, and children of ANYONE to be covered by God's grace.

Just like those who are born mentally retarded or mentally ill to the point that their minds never develop high enough to understand what sin and its consequence is.

Just my thoughts. :):

Edit: Cameron the only difference about the flood is that the children were tainted with the blood of the nephilim, so everyone but Noah and his family who werent, had to die.

At least that is the way I understand it.

[Wileyzmuse]

Thanks for your replies :):

Mercy4me I tend to agree with you on this one. I still wonder about the timing of things, though, whether God would allow the child to be born and go through the tribulation or not...

[RJs here]

I *DO* hope you all are right.


But since we really don't KNOW one way or another ~ we can certainly RELY on the ONE Who created us -- to do what is right!!


But if it happens this way -- I would think/hope it would certainly wake up a *LOT* of parents!!!


Counting on it happening this way ~ to wake up some in our own family!!


:thumb


but trusting -- ultimately trusting ~ either way!!

[blitzkreig]

Originally posted by Mercy4Me
Edit: Cameron the only difference about the flood is that the children were tainted with the blood of the nephilim, so everyone but Noah and his family who werent, had to die.

At least that is the way I understand it. We are all tainted (so to speak) with the blood of Adam....

I have always wondered where this "age of accountability" theory originated... I think I found it. The Catholic folks have some church history stuff... but it is strange then that they try to baptize babies as soon as they can. hmmmm

If anyone has any references please do let me know... not positive thinking... I have a bunch of that myself

[RJs here]

that's true blitz ~ I, too, have always wondered if the AOA {age of accountability} was just an ASSUMED thing..... (??)


like we ASSUME God will do things this way or that....



btw, you brought up Catholics -- this leads me to believe {cuz they think that it's when they baptize babies -- that THAT makes them "born again".....:freaked WRONG-O!! But, that's what they believe.....}


So therefore, they would naturally think that miscarried babies had gone to hell, since they had not been baptized.......... is that theory correct?? :confused

[kgreen20]

Originally posted by Mercy4Me
I know the majority on the board doesnt agree with me, but I consider unborn babies, babies, and children of ANYONE to be covered by God's grace.

Just like those who are born mentally retarded or mentally ill to the point that their minds never develop high enough to understand what sin and its consequence is.

Just my thoughts. :):

Edit: Cameron the only difference about the flood is that the children were tainted with the blood of the nephilim, so everyone but Noah and his family who werent, had to die.

At least that is the way I understand it.



I am with you, Mercy4Me. I am a firm believer that God does not hold babies and children accountable for a decision they must have a certain degree of mental maturity to make. Babies and young children (and people with mental retardation) go to Heaven if they die, whether their parents are saved or not. The same will hold for babies and small children in the Rapture.

And--to those who think we are all tainted, same as Noah's generation--yes, we're tainted by sin, but we are pure human beings. We are not tainted with the blood of demons, and the children of Noah's day were. BIG difference!


Yours truly,
Kathy G.

[cameron222]

The word does not verify that all of the people before the flood were Nephlim except for Noah and his family....it says only Noah and his family were found righteous.

I believe the Nephlim and regular earthly man were both in existence at that time. JMO

[Jacob]

Jesus said: "Let the little children come to me, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

King David, when he learned that his infant son had died, said "He cannot come back to me, but I shall go to him."

Most people believe that babies and children are automatically covered by God's grace until they are able to understand the claims of Christ on their life. I agree with this view also.

It may be that one of the many shocking events about the rapture, in addition to the fact that millions of people are missing from the earth, is the fact that all the babies and children are gone too. I believe that Dave Hunt and a few other prophecy scholars hold to this view.

[blitzkreig]

Jacob I would like to believe that too.... but as long as we are speculating I think it more likely that it is according to "the sins of the father" (or salvation)...

1Ki 15:3 And he walked in all the sins of his father, which he had done before him: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father.

1Ki 15:4 Nevertheless for David's sake did the LORD his God give him a lamp in Jerusalem, to set up his son after him, and to establish Jerusalem:

1Ki 15:5 Because David did [that which was] right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any [thing] that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

[glorymj]

Originally posted by Jacob
Most people believe that babies and children are automatically covered by God's grace until they are able to understand the claims of Christ on their life. I agree with this view also. I agree with this. I have a question, though..

Not knowing the rapture scriptures intimately, does it specify that the church is caught up? If so, are the children part of the church? I'm not sure they are, even though they will be granted grace. :D:

[Witness4Jesus]

I guess I trust God. He is loving and wishes that none perish. Therefore, I believe that babies (of the unsaved) are going to heaven as well as the young. Jesus wants the children there is no doubt in my mind. They won't have to pay the price of there unsaved parent. This is just my opinion though.

Witness

[SadieGrace]

If the age of accountability thing is true, wouldn't it be better for all to be killed or die before reaching that age?? ......I mean, eternity is a long time to exchange for a few yrs. here on earth.

I do not believe that it is something that is found in scripture at all.

But I do believe that just as Jesus said: "all that the Father has given to me shall come to me."

*he won't lose even one!

Sadie

[kgreen20]

<sigh> God does NOT let us know about the spiritual security of babies and young children to give us a license to murder them! Just as He does not tell us about our own eternal security as believers to give us an excuse to live in sin.

NO one in their right minds would ever advocate such a thing!!!



Kathy G.

[Harley]

Originally posted by cameron222
...the age of accountability.

Age of accountability?

[cameron222]

Age of accountability.....commonly thought to be the age at which time one can know between right and wrong and make a valid conscious decision as to whether or not to give their heart to Jesus.

Did Jesus know that the baby Adolph Hitler would one day be the person he became....Mussolini, Osama, Saddam?

Perhaps in his foreknowledge he will decide which babies go.

[cameron222]

Will Muslim and Hindu babies go in the rapture?

[eaglex]

Will a baby in the womb of an unsaved women gothourgh THE RAPTURE ? NO! The child will be in the mother's wombtill birth and when born will live though the TRIBULATION PERIOD. They will only be at the maximum only 7 years old when JESUS comes back and more than likely will be part of the people to repopulate THE EARTH.Will babies and children o fother religons be raptured ? YES!aLL BABIES AND CHILDDREN who have not achieved the age of accountabililllty will be RAPTURED with everyone else.:D: :thumb :angel :nod :): :P:

[Harley]

Originally posted by cameron222
Age of accountability.....commonly thought to be the age at which time one can know between right and wrong and make a valid conscious decision as to whether or not to give their heart to Jesus.
But is this a biblical doctrine?

[glorymj]

Originally posted by eaglex
Will a baby in the womb of an unsaved women gothourgh THE RAPTURE ? NO! The child will be in the mother's wombtill birth and when born will live though the TRIBULATION PERIOD. They will only be at the maximum only 7 years old when JESUS comes back and more than likely will be part of the people to repopulate THE EARTH.Will babies and children o fother religons be raptured ? YES!aLL BABIES AND CHILDDREN who have not achieved the age of accountabililllty will be RAPTURED with everyone else.:D: :thumb :angel :nod :): :P: :twitch Why do you believe this and also that children will be raptured? Why not the unborn? What about the babies who are half-born?

[Don]

Originally posted by cameron222
Will Muslim and Hindu babies go in the rapture?
Is there such thing as a Muslim or Hindu baby?

[Wileyzmuse]

Originally posted by Don
Is there such thing as a Muslim or Hindu baby?

:thumb

[cameron222]

Good question Don. I was alluding to the fact that these babies would in all likelihood grow up to practice either the Muslim or Hindu religion........

But again, God knows the beginning from the ending and know which ones would later follow Him. God is perfect and there is an answer to this, whether we know the answer or not. :):

[SadieGrace]

<sigh> God does NOT let us know about the spiritual security of babies and young children to give us a license to murder them! Just as He does not tell us about our own eternal security as believers to give us an excuse to live in sin.

NO one in their right minds would ever advocate such a thing!!!


Kgreen, I'm not advocating such a thing either. Just taking an unscriptural doctrine to its logical conclusion.

Bottom line is that the Lord knows who are His.


Sadie

[falen]

<<btw, you brought up Catholics -- this leads me to believe {cuz they think that it's when they baptize babies -- that THAT makes them "born again"..... WRONG-O!! But, that's what they believe.....}>>

That is false. Baptism in RC is to remove original sin only. We believe we are not fully in the faith until Confirmation. During that ceremony you accept Jesus. It so happens that it is around that age of accountability that everyone keeps talking about (7th grade 13-14 years)


<<So therefore, they would naturally think that miscarried babies had gone to hell, since they had not been baptized.......... is that theory correct?? >>

RC have NEVER said unbaptised babies go to hell. In my day they taught that they go in a place called Limbo. A happy place where there is no suffering and apparently lots of babies to play with, but because they had original sin, they could never see God. I went further into history and they used to say that the soul does not enter into the baby until its first breath. Now does that mean not until the first air breath (once born) or breath in the womb (they do "breathe" in there)? I do not know. The soul stayed with God in the guff until that breath. A jewish friend said that that is what she was taught too, so this guff thing must come from the OT.

Gee your comment makes the RCs sound like monsters. Is that what people on this site believe? I've noticed a lot of errors in comments about RC beliefs and it makes me laugh. But this one takes the cake!

[Jacob]

Originally posted by blitzkreig
Jacob I would like to believe that too.... but as long as we are speculating I think it more likely that it is according to "the sins of the father" (or salvation)...

1Ki 15:3 And he walked in all the sins of his father, which he had done before him: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father.

1Ki 15:4 Nevertheless for David's sake did the LORD his God give him a lamp in Jerusalem, to set up his son after him, and to establish Jerusalem:

1Ki 15:5 Because David did [that which was] right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any [thing] that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

I looked at the above passages and one of the differences I noticed is that 1 Kings is describing an adult who is making a conscious choice, not infants and small children. I guess the bottom line is whether or not we believe that babies automatically go to heaven when they die.

[Jacob]

Originally posted by glorymj
I agree with this. I have a question, though..

Not knowing the rapture scriptures intimately, does it specify that the church is caught up? If so, are the children part of the church? I'm not sure they are, even though they will be granted grace. :D:

The rapture Scriptures are 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:51-55.

The Rapture is for the Church, which, according to dispensational theology, is a special group of believers in Jesus Christ who are called "the Body of Christ" or His "Bride." The church started at Pentecost in Acts 2 and ends with the Rapture. All those who are part of the Church of Jesus Christ will be raptured when the Lord descends from heaven and calls His Bride home. Those who died will return with Him and receive their glorified resurrected bodies, those who are alive at this time will be changed from mortal to immortal, and then all will be "caught up" in the air to meet the Lord, and then be escorted back to His "Father's House."

With that being said, I do believe that babies and small children to young to understand the claims of Christ are automatically covered by God's grace when they die, i.e., babies don't go to hell when they die. Since I believe that this is doctrinally true, I believe that it is reasonable to believe that all babies and small children who would automatically be covered by God's grace if they died would also have that same grace covering them at the Rapture.

Christian parents unfortunatlely raise children who will continue to reject Christ. Children raised in unsaved households do get saved. Will two Christian parents who are raptured have their babies left behind? Will the child from an unsaved household who would have received Christ later in life be left behind because his parents are unsaved?

[Christine]

There are also two issues to be considered here:

1. Earthly fate
2. Eternal fate

Just because children (under God's grace) *may* be guaranteed an eternal life with him, that doesn't mean that they are promised anything in their lives on earth.

A quick example off the top of my head is the case of the flood.

We don't know the eternal fate of the children (as the bible does not speculate as to it), but we do know that they were not spared the earthly fate of perishing in the flood.

While a very :(: thought, I don't see scripture pointing that any child is considered part of the 'church' based on age alone.

On the pregnancy, I do believe scripture would support the unborn child going with the mother, as prior to birth, the child is still a part of the mother and cannot survive on its own.

[kgreen20]

Originally posted by SadieGrace
Kgreen, I'm not advocating such a thing either. Just taking an unscriptural doctrine to its logical conclusion.

Bottom line is that the Lord knows who are His.


Sadie



Some think that the doctrine of eternal security is unscriptural, too, and use the conclusion I referred to in my earlier answer as an attempt to refute it. Just as you used the one mentioned in your response to refute mine. But because they can be abused by some does not make them unscriptural. It simply means that some people abuse them because they want an excuse--a license--to do wrong. That doesn't make the doctrines themselves any less valid.

All babies and small children are the Lord's! Until they're old enough to understand sin and its consequences. Then they must make the decision to receive Jesus into their hearts so they can be His once more.



Yours truly,
Kathy G.

[ojos]

I would think God is consistent. If someone, child or adult, were to die right now and go to Heaven (being either saved or under the AOA) then I believe that same person will go in the rapture. Some arguments I would comment on...

By saying only kids that would eventually be save will go in the rapture gets awfully close to predestination. Whether they would or woul not choose Christ is moot. At that point in time, they have not and are under the AOA. God gave us time, it lets us track events. Even though he knows the outcome, he does not judge us until we do something. Example, I may backslide and God may cause an event to happen to get my attention and bring me back. I wouldn't benefit from him doing this before I backslid.

Limbo - Sorry, I do not see that in the bible at all, in word or meaning. I do see Hbr 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: " Sheep or Goat, Unrepentant Sinner or Save in Grace; Right or Left. There are only 2 places that can happen when we are judged and it is based on 1 decision made in this life; did you ask Christ to save you?. Either Christ paid for ALL of our sins, or he did not. And if he did not, I have no hope. I rest my faith on Christ, because I know I do not deserve heaven. I believe his boundless grace will cover the unborn, as well as young children.

--ojos

[blitzkreig]

Originally posted by falen

RC have NEVER said unbaptised babies go to hell. In my day they taught that they go in a place called Limbo. A happy place where there is no suffering and apparently lots of babies to play with, but because they had original sin, they could never see God. I went further into history and they used to say that the soul does not enter into the baby until its first breath. Now does that mean not until the first air breath (once born) or breath in the womb (they do "breathe" in there)? I do not know. The soul stayed with God in the guff until that breath. A jewish friend said that that is what she was taught too, so this guff thing must come from the OT.
OK... I can recall hearing something about "Limbo" and reading something a long time ago about the "Guff"... Do any of our Catholic friends want to explain that to a Protestant (like me) ? :confused

[lookinupval]

When I read these scriptures, and others like them, I see that the Lord holds children in a very high regard. Is it "intuition" that leads me to believe he would not appoint innocent children to His wrath during the Tribulation, or possibly logic?



Deut 1:39
"And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad-they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it."

Matthew 18:10
"See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven."

Matthew 18:14
"In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost."


OTHER SCRIPTURES that show Christ holds the little ones in high regard:

Matthew 10:42
"And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward."

Matthew 18:6
"But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."

Luke 17:2
"It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin."

[I]The bottom line here: Scripture isn't crystal clear on the issue of who will be raptured. We can go on hope, interpretation, rationalizations, etc., but truly we won't know until the day and the hour we go Home to be with our Heavenly Father.

[Jacob]

Originally posted by Christine
There are also two issues to be considered here:

1. Earthly fate
2. Eternal fate

Just because children (under God's grace) *may* be guaranteed an eternal life with him, that doesn't mean that they are promised anything in their lives on earth.

A quick example off the top of my head is the case of the flood.

We don't know the eternal fate of the children (as the bible does not speculate as to it), but we do know that they were not spared the earthly fate of perishing in the flood.

While a very :(: thought, I don't see scripture pointing that any child is considered part of the 'church' based on age alone.

On the pregnancy, I do believe scripture would support the unborn child going with the mother, as prior to birth, the child is still a part of the mother and cannot survive on its own.

I think it is difficult to draw a parallel between the flood and the Rapture in terms of who is left behind and who is taken.

The flood was God's judgement upon the earth for its wickedness. Noah preached for over 100 years while he built the Ark before the flood came. The bible says that Noah and his family were the only righteous people on earth at that time. Clearly, those who had the mental capacity to understand Noah's message and chose to reject it went into an eternity of torment, but did their children who could not understand the claims of God and repentance, suffer the same eternal fate.

King David, after his sin with Bathsheba, lost his infant son through death as the result of God striking the child with an illness. David said of his baby: "He cannot come back to me, but I shall go to him."

The Rapture on the other hand not only opens the door for the next step in God's dispensational plan of the ages, but it closes the door on one that has been going on since Penetcost in Acts 2. The judgement of the Tribulation is described as a judgement on a Christ-rejecting world.

While the bible does not say that a child is part of the Church based on his/her age, the issue is a person's mental capacity to understand the claims of Christ. Jesus said "whosover will believe will have eternal life." He told the Pharisees "you are unwilling to come to me in order to have eternal life." Faith is based upon a person's hearing the word of God, understanding it, and making a conscious choice to choose Jesus Christ. A baby does not have the capacity to do that, neither does a severely mentally handicapped adult who never possessed it either. If these people are going to be left behind at the Rapture because they did not "believe," then it also means that they will face the Lake of Fire.

[Christine]

Hi Jacob!

Where I see the parallels to the flood (and the destruction of Sodom) is in Luke 17 where Jesus talks of the end of the age in terms of the days of Noah and the days of Lot -- where they are eating, drinking and getting married.

:):