Meat and Milk: Can A Church Provide Both?

[Ynott]

I've been reading alot lately on several threads....posting less.... I'm usually studying elsewhere and working on a family Bible study which I send out on a regular basis.

I have found that many here (many of whom I've known "here" now for quite some time) are all struggling with a similar problem.

You see, we all "grew".

We did what the Bible told us to do and we ATE UP the Word and are growing in Spirit. This is a good thing.

However, when we turn around, we often find, to our chagrin, that we are isolating ourselves in so doing.

Unfortunately, most folks in our churches AREN'T growing. Sad to say. They are happy right where they are....spoon fed whatever sermon is chosen each week and doing "works". Service and entertainment seem to be big! Conversion and Alpha are big! But growth is assumed and not supported.

We have big churches, but our elders lack maturity....age yes, time in church, yes...but spiritual maturity? Well, not so much of that is evident.

Church is seen more and more as a elementary school and we're all looking for High School....Some of us are looking for college!

Hence, we have home churches springing up.

I ask you then... Are home churches the future "universities" of the faith?

Is this God's plan? For the mature believers to gradually move "out of" the institutional churches? Back to more of what the church was originally?

What do you think?

[blessedone]

:thumb Good question. I'm anxious to see some answers because I too have the same question.

My dh and I quit going to the Sunday School class because it was milk only. We need more!

Dh found a wonderful bible study in our church for men that is great for him. Does anyone think it would be odd if I asked around at other churches about their bible studies since I won't go to the one offered by my church?

I've often thought about the home church, since institutional churches seem to be directed to new christians, and am wondering how I can find one in my area.

-----Quote: I ask you then... Are home churches the future "universities" of the faith? -----

I think you might be right!

[cameron222]

In all fairness, we need to make sure that we are open to the Holy Spirit in Bible studies. What you consider a ho hum Sunday school lesson may have touched someone else's heart on the day it was given.

Do you pray for your Sunday school teacher that the spirit would lead him/her?

We have started a bi weekly home Bible study and our group is very close. It allows us to go outside the structured Sunday school literature and study topics of interest. We share a meal (covered dish) before we study, then fellowship, have the lesson, and pray.

It is a blessing!!

[BarbT]

Well Ynott, I see I won't need to start a thread about the same topic now. :): Yes, I can see God raising up small groups for those who are tired of lukewarm social club churches.

In fact, I was going to ask if there are posters like me who are happier and learning more by NOT attending an institutional church. :): Personally, I have never been closer to the Lord since leaving a church in Feb. {It was OK but not a good fit for me.}

I have been praying that God would lead me to a home fellowship that is Israel & prophecy friendly. I need to be around *on fire* believers who are actively looking up for Jesus while they "occupy" by doing His work. I want the whole package!

So far God has sustained me with personal studies and the very real ministry of RR while I await His leading. :): Sometimes I think this board is the spiritual classroom He has "assigned" me in lieu of traditional church membership. ;):

[John Tyson]

Grace and peace to you all.

Maybe Ynott should define "mature believers."

Let me say that this is one area where spiritual pride can get a foothold. WATCH OUT! Don't fall into Gnosticism.

In your own families, there are folks of all ages. There are the oldest, the grandmothers and grandfathers along with the youngest babes. Which do you love more? Even though they are all not at the same maturity, do we not love them all--the grandparents, the parents, the bothers and sisters, the children, the babies--equally? A church should be the same. In every one of Christ's churches there are the grandparents, the in-betweens, and the babes. Love them all equally.

Before you more mature believers go off to get with your equals, think if that is what Paul did. Did Paul say, you mature believers, get out of those immature churches at Corinth and Galatia? Likewise, was Paul's maturity based on how much grace, faith, knowledge, and direct revelation that God had given him? Was any of that what Paul said was most important to God? Or did Paul tell us that there was something else that was a measure of our maturity and of most importance to Jesus?
1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

Dear brothers and sisters, stay in the Christian church God has put you. Roll up your sleeves and love us lesser Christians in spite of yourselves. There are no "universities."

God bless,
John

[blessedone]

Originally posted by cameron222
In all fairness, we need to make sure that we are open to the Holy Spirit in Bible studies. What you consider a ho hum Sunday school lesson may have touched someone else's heart on the day it was given.

Do you pray for your Sunday school teacher that the spirit would lead him/her?



I have no doubt that someone is touched by the "lesson". I didn't say it was ho-hum, just milk. But, I need more then the milk provided. I want to move into the deeper aspects of Christianity. Should I stay in a class that leaves me "hungry" week after week?

BarbT: I know from a previous post you live in the same city as I. If you find a good Bible study please pm me. Thanks.

[Jade]

In fact, I was going to ask if there are posters like me who are happier and learning more by NOT attending an institutional church.

So far God has sustained me with personal studies and the very real ministry of RR while I await His leading. Sometimes I think this board is the spiritual classroom He has "assigned" me in lieu of traditional church membership.

Yes.

I've learned more during the short time I've been here then I have at any church. I've also found myself reading the Bible more and studying it intensively, actually striving to derive the meaning out of it. My DH and I have had more conversations about the bible. I don't mean "did you read it today" but so and so said this on RR and I wondered how it fit in with such a passage, what are your thoughts". I never felt the drive to read the Bible or comprehend its teachings the way I do now, since coming to RR. I've seen growth in my prayer life and other aspects of my spiritual life.

I always seemed to get caught up in the more unpleasant parts of an organized church. People engaged in the nasty gossip of a church always seem to find me and try to drag me into it or make me the target of it. I got rather tired of finding out that people I thought were my friends were spreading viscious attacks about me behind my back, even at one where my husband was an elder. I've been a church wanderer for a few years now.

I know this is an unpopular view, but I don't derive anything from a church, unless I am anonymous in it. Any efforts on my part to give in a quiet humble Christian way always seems to meet with scorn. If I don't give of myself, that too meets with scorn. I must be the type of woman that attracts the "cats" in a church.

[daveleau]

Well, I have seen this happen, and I have a different take. It appears that you desire a more indepth study or look into the Bible. The church is a place for fellowship and is a great place to help everyone. If all the mature people left, what would become of the less spiritually mature? The thing I found that really helped were Bible studies that are hard core and indepth like BSF. This, combined with the fellowship of my normal church, really filled all the voids for me, when I felt similar issues regarding my growth and my church.

[cameron222]

Blessedone....I understand your point. I often have a problem with the structured literature from the association. Much of it is good, but I would like to see a survey done of the church members with a detailed listing of what subjects they would like to study. I am even for having various topics of interest posted in the church bulletin and letting class members go to that particular class on any given Sunday.....but that might be radical and too much change........but at least members could have more of a choice.

[faithwalk]

Cameron, That is exactly what my church did for our Sunday School classes. A sheet of paper was passed out and adults wrote down subjects that they would like to be taught on. Four subjects were selected and four different classes set up. Each adult has the option to attend whichever is of interest to them. And it is wonderful. Subjects ranged from marriage, raising children, all sorts of things.

In speaking of meat/milk churches, I guess mine is more to the extreme in the meat direction. We are talking big time meat. I remember five years ago when we first started going to church again after not going at all for all my adult life, I had no idea what the pastor was even talking about most of the time.

But after all the teaching, I know I am so blessed. I think the problem, as I hear from many Christians, is one of boredom. Nothing new. But if they only knew all the treasures in God's Word.

God Bless

Gail

[seeker42]

We did what the Bible told us to do and we ATE UP the Word and are growing in Spirit. This is a good thing.

However, when we turn around, we often find, to our chagrin, that we are isolating ourselves in so doing.

Unfortunately, most folks in our churches AREN'T growing. Sad to say.

=======

I agree. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one thinking about this. I don't think that the issue is that people "Want to grow but do not know how". I think that - most of the time - the problem is that most people don't want to grow.

Ask someone to say an extra prayer...well maybe. Ask someone to change their lifestyle or spend time with the Bible instead of the TV or the great "Sports God", that's a different matter...


The other problem I wonder about is whether or not Pastors Want their audiences to grow spiritually. I have been to many churches, but I have been to very few where in depth serious Bible studies were offered by the Church leadership. Often it was more a case of someone who was on his own, allowed to do that within the church.

But that is very different from Leadership from the top. And I would like to see Pastors teach in depth Bible studies, and I think that most churches would like to see this also. I think many church committee meetings and pot luck dinners are talking the place of the meetings that leaders should be leading. It may just be me, but it seems as though Church Growth somehow was redefined, from the old Biblical standard of growing in-depth in the knowlege of God and His Word, to a numbers game - whereby numbers are equated with success...


I Cor 3: 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.


Hebrews 5: 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

[Ynott]

John Tyson, I know what you are getting at and believe me it was with great trepidation that I chose the words "more mature".

I kick myself repeatedly about it. Am I ? Or am I prideful?

Truth be told, I'm getting mighty tired of our "guest pastors" (often young college students) who are up there when our pastor is away and spewing false doctrine. They get lots of laughs and often applause, but they're just plain WRONG! And they are too often supported by the elder members who are more interested in "Numbers" than correctness.....My church seems bent on expanding through Alpha and social events at the moment. Growing is the by word.

Perhaps your church isn't like that. I hope not. But when I read on this board how many are like mine, well, it makes me think.

Now either my church is shifting or I am growing. Maybe both are happening.

I ran into this at my last church too. My minister preferred to speak on social issues rather than the Bible. I went to two churches for a while and then switched.

I know many people going to more than one church at the moment. One for the fellowship they have reached through years of attendance and others for growth and in-depth study.

Still others are starting or attending home churches....Some are doing ALL OF THIS in an attempt to grow.

I don't think it's just pride then, when I look around. There are just too many of us! And most are seeking to join rather than to isolate ourselves.

Yes, I have made suggestions to my pastor, but they have all been ignored. I start conversations only to see them "timed" and then they move on.

This bothers me greatly. I am truly struggling with this.

My kids love the youth program, but the director (who IS on fire for the Lord), often speaks incorrectly or boastfully about things over which I do not agree.

I am constantly talking to my children to "correct" these errors! Once, I even walked out of an evening service because the visiting pastor (from Jerusalem, no less!) was telling me that things there are getting better and more peaceful to usher in the return of Christ. What peace in the middle east?

It's just growing harder and harder to remain. But remain I do. I try to add some depth. I ask questions. I work in the Sunday School.....a few weeks ago, they were teaching that Paul was a Roman soldier! Don't get me started. It wasn't always like this! But they don't seem to think that study is needed...only prayer and LOADS of activities!

But please keep me humble and point these things out to me. I may be wrong and I appreciate it if you keep me focused. Thank you.

EDITED TO ADD: BTW, I think I "might" be ready for middle school....But several people I know here seem ready for (or are already IN) university. Personally, I feel that I have so much more to learn.

The more I study, the less I know...but the more I hope I am growing.

[Ynott]

(((Barb T)))) Yes, we've sorta been talking "around" this issue for a while now, haven't we? :nod

I guess it isn't just "us" then. Perhaps it is because we are in the "end times" churches? The times we are living in certainly don't focus much on "living for the Lord". We are an "issues" oriented culture and when the issue is no longer a banner headline on the front page, we move on.

Churches seem more interested in the financial bottom line than the spiritual one.

I have friends in the ministry and what they've told me about how much the seminaries have changed is enough to break your heart.

It is no wonder then that the churches are ALSO changing.

Sometimes, I feel like I'm sitting in a different place from everyone else in the church. Very weird and isolating.

Yes, I have been getting more in my on-line "fellowships" than in my off-line ones. Oh~ I still have friends in the church, but more and more, the distance seems to be growing.

It seems that the close I try to grow to the Lord, the more distant I am from my fellow church members. I want to talk about the Bible and they want to talk about a church social event.

I don't know how to "put it". I guess those of us in the same boat kinda know what I'm talking about.

I hunger for some of the churches that I DO read about here....Many are fortunate enough to have REAL MEAT in their churches! And God Bless them for sharing their experiences here with us. It gives me hope that when I return to the States, I too can find such a congregation.

Praying for that and until that day.....

[yankeedownsouth]

Ynott - Thanks for posting this thread. It really touches my heart...

[RJs here]

definitely the end times church, IMO ~ where

"numbers" and "social issues" are far more important than real *MEAT*!!


and no ~ IMO, it's not a matter of pride....

we were told to *GROW* in the grace and KNOWLEDGE of our Lord Jesus Christ!! {2 Peter 3}


I once attended ~ not so much a "middle school" or a "university" ~ but the local "country club church" ~ you know, where socialization was almost an "art form".....


Now, that's not to say that fellowship is not important -- of course it is. It just shouldn't be the total focus.


and yet -- on the flip side -- what are churches suppose to do -- I mean, they know it's by the "fun, fellowship activities" that draws ppl to come visit in the first place!

Hmm..... must be a tight rope balancing act from time to time......


Either ppl are interested in the Word of God & and the things of God ~ or they're not, IMO.

Jesus says we're either for Him or against Him.

And yet (I'm beginning to sound bi-polar here! :wacko)~ all areas of our lives ARE important -- as we experience all of it.... eg/ financial, marriage, relationships, etc. etc.


But DO pray to make sure you're in the right place!! and DON'T work yourself to death -- trying to please everybody in sight!! Just like that email, "satan's meeting" ~ don't do *THAT*!!

We can be SO BUSY "working for the Lord" ~ that we neglect having a relationship with Him!!

[Ynott]

I hear ya, RJ! I'm feeling pretty "bi-polar" myself at the moment! :freaked

I will continue to attend my own church. I think I might get "more involved" in the Sunday School....I already am, but I may "up" that involvement this year.

After I finish the Colossian's study, I'm taking a well deserved break.....but I plan on leaning on the Lord for what He wants me to undertake next.

I'm staying busy....I'm upholding my membership/fellowship. I'm mentoring where I can and learning more of what I don't know (which is PLENTY!)

Just trying to grow here. Searching always for the light! :nod

[Ynott]

Say, RJ! You ARE reading what I send you!

:D: :thumb

[RJs here]

some of it, Girl ~ some days I have to merely skim.


I often times get hit w/as many as 100 emails a day ~ I kid you not! :wacko


Was reading your virus thread on Breaking News w/great interest.....

as since I'm now on high speed, I've hardly been bothered AT ALL w/any spam....

till just this past week -- last night's really scared me -- from someone I didn't know and the subject line looked JUST LIKE what we've been warned against opening.

I deleted it all on sight. Too many ppl I know are getting hit w/this thing.

:wacko


Did I skip over something important you sent my way??

[discovergrace]

Originally posted by Ynott
I've been reading alot lately on several threads....posting less.... I'm usually studying elsewhere and working on a family Bible study which I send out on a regular basis.

I have found that many here (many of whom I've known "here" now for quite some time) are all struggling with a similar problem.

You see, we all "grew".

We did what the Bible told us to do and we ATE UP the Word and are growing in Spirit. This is a good thing.

However, when we turn around, we often find, to our chagrin, that we are isolating ourselves in so doing.

Unfortunately, most folks in our churches AREN'T growing. Sad to say. They are happy right where they are....spoon fed whatever sermon is chosen each week and doing "works". Service and entertainment seem to be big! Conversion and Alpha are big! But growth is assumed and not supported.

We have big churches, but our elders lack maturity....age yes, time in church, yes...but spiritual maturity? Well, not so much of that is evident.

Church is seen more and more as a elementary school and we're all looking for High School....Some of us are looking for college!

Hence, we have home churches springing up.

I ask you then... Are home churches the future "universities" of the faith?

Is this God's plan? For the mature believers to gradually move "out of" the institutional churches? Back to more of what the church was originally?

What do you think?

You know...I am in agreement with this. Our church (majority of the body) is content to be fed milk. You know...the ssame stuff over and over...the feel good stuff. I walk out many times feeling like I need more.
I read my bible, I pray (not as much as I should, I am sure of that) but sunday is just not *it* for me.
We joined a home group 2 yrs ago. This is where we are challenged to change. To grow and mature and use the gifts that God has given to us. There have been MANY *ouch!* moments in that small group! We are seeing how through honesty, transparency, being courteous to one another etc, that this group is indeed glorifying the Lord!
On a side note...we had a guest speaker on sunday. It was one of those *ouch!* messages that hit a chord in many. It was a challenge to change message! Know how come I know the body is starving?!~~~~the altar was filled with people who want to come clean before Christ and grow and change!
I feel such an urgency to get REAL...get RIGHT and get GOING! We are past the stage of ego's being stroked...we now need to feel the pain that comes with change....and humilty.

[Ynott]

EVERYTHING I SEND YOU IS IMPORTANT!

:laugh :doh ;): :P:

Seriously, read what you can....You can always go to Richard's website if you delete it or want to review it. I post it all over there as well after I send it out to the "regulars".

No worries.

(((((RJ))))))

[Ynott]

discovergrace, I hear you. I felt that call to grow last year. I mean it went from a whisper to a SHOUT!

I don't know if that is because our time is short or because I'd just hit that place in my walk.

At any rate, my church isn't "cutting it" either... at least not fully, so I am doing more on my own and with others who feel so inclined.

But I have felt no leaning to leave my church and so I won't. But I do need more than they can currently provide.

[BarbT]

I'm so glad this subject is "out of the closet!" :):

It's kind of shocking how rigid many people are about the biblical encouragement to "gather together". They assume it has to include going to a building for a few hours Sunday morning.

My question has always been WHY should a Christian -- mature OR brand new -- continue plodding along in a place that serves up whipped cream sermons and puts the Great Commission second to pot luck dinners and new carpets?

Don't misunderstand -- if you have found a "red hot" church that has never lost it's FIRST LOVE, I am extremely happy for you {also a bit envious! ;): }.

If your church takes to the streets evangelizing without fear, if your pastor preaches the hard truth without compromise or politically correct overtones, if talking about Jesus in the social hall doesn't raise eyebrows, and IF you can add excellent teaching/discipleship to the mix .....then you are indeed fortunate.

Most of us will never find such a church in these Last Days. Some will settle for less and some won't. I know the category Ynott and I are in. :):

A long season of rest from institutional worship is nothing to be ashamed of! If God has a different form of learning & fellowship in mind for us, we would do well to follow His lead!

:):

[glorymj]

Originally posted by BarbT
Well Ynott, I see I won't need to start a thread about the same topic now. :): Yes, I can see God raising up small groups for those who are tired of lukewarm social club churches.

In fact, I was going to ask if there are posters like me who are happier and learning more by NOT attending an institutional church. :): Personally, I have never been closer to the Lord since leaving a church in Feb. {It was OK but not a good fit for me.}

I have been praying that God would lead me to a home fellowship that is Israel & prophecy friendly. I need to be around *on fire* believers who are actively looking up for Jesus while they "occupy" by doing His work. I want the whole package!

So far God has sustained me with personal studies and the very real ministry of RR while I await His leading. :): Sometimes I think this board is the spiritual classroom He has "assigned" me in lieu of traditional church membership. ;): I could have written this post! Even down to leaving a church in Feb!! :freaked weird

We have done more growing and maturing when we were not part of a "church" than we ever did "in" one. :(: I have come to the conclusion that, at least for the time, we have been called out. Perhaps someday soon we can find someplace that we will be able to go, fellowship, learn, and feel as if we are truly a part of the real church.

I kid you not when I say that RR is the closest thing to a real church we've found. Sad, isn't it?

[Harley]

Originally posted by Ynott
[BWhat do you think? [/B]
I think church bashing is a popular participatory sport for many on this Board. The favored methods are grand generalizations and guilt by association mixed with assumptions of unnoble intentions and motivations.

That being said, I think the house church movement is a cultural phenomenon that is filling a felt need but is no more or less biblical then many other structures of the church over that past two millenia.

The Bible is pretty vague in prescribing how the church should be structured.

[Ynott]

Well Harley, tell us what you really think! :rolleyes

I speak of things that I have experienced personally. You are the one speaking in "generalizations".

It's called displacement.

[Harley]

..what I thought so I told you.

Not sure why the defensive posture and :rolleyes - I was speaking of the Board as a whole, not you. But I guess the burden of being clear is on the poster - me, not the readers.

But I stand by my contention. And now I will rant...

Rarely do I come to this Board that there is not at least one post griping about skits in their churches, or pastors doing topical series, or building campaigns, or not enough end times preaching... blah, blah, blah.

Face it - churches have issues and no church is perfect, after all they are made up of, and led by, fallen people. But all this (how's that for general) "The church is only interested in entertainment," or "The church is full of lukewarm people" [of course it is - and always will be], or "The church does not make me feel closer to God" comments are annoying when specific experiences - which individually are valid - are applied to any and all organized churches.

Yesterday I read the story about the child who died during the prayer meeting. Read the details and you find that this was a house church made up of six families. But I do not believe that this would be cause to say the whole house church movement is/or has become unbiblical.

I do not mean to pick on your experience, but everyone of the above are specific comments that I have seen in various posts. Say what you may about churches, but they are, and will always be God's main modus operendi through which he deals with the world - until such time as Christ appears and does the job himself.

[Ynott]

Harley, since you obviously have some "issues" with the board, why not start a thread detailing it?

None of your comments have a thing to do with this thread.

I respect your opinion, but it has nothing to do with this topic. Are you sure that you read it?

[John Tyson]

Grace and peace to you all.

I truly feel sorry for you who don't have a good church home. I really do! If some trajedy were to happen to me or my family, I know which of God's people would come to minister to us with hands-on Christian help. It wouldn't be someone coming through a computer screen. If I lost my job, my home, or (God forbid) my computer, I will always have my church--warts and all.

God bless,
John

P.S. Many years ago I was telling my dad all the reasons I wasn't going to go to church any more. After I had enumerated all that was wrong with the church, he simply said to me, "Johnny, if you're looking for a perfect church--first of all you are not going to find one--but in the event you do, the moment you join it, it's no longer going to be perfect."

[Harley]

Actually, I do not have issues with the Board - just a couple sub-topics on it.

As far as relevancy, my original intent was to answer:

I ask you then... Are home churches the future "universities" of the faith?

Is this God's plan? For the mature believers to gradually move "out of" the institutional churches? Back to more of what the church was originally?

Maybe I should have just stuck with:
I think the house church movement is a cultural phenomenon that is filling a felt need, but is no more or less biblical then many other structures of the church over that past two millenia.

The Bible is pretty vague in prescribing how the church should be structured.

[John Tyson]

Meat and Milk: Can A Church Provide Both?

Obviously a church can provide both. Some will not like the meat and some will not like the milk, but both can be provided. It's an old question, not just an "End Times" question. I remember my parents and grandparents discussing it. My grandfather who was born in the 1880s wrote a letter to my grandmother before they were married and he was complaining that there was not enough "sound doctrine" being preached in his church. That church was in the Oklahoma Territory. However, he never questioned whether he should remove himself from it. Maybe it was because there wasn't another choice. Look at how blessed we are in this country. There is a church for just about ever view, desire, or doctrine. Many of them are Christ-centered, God lead churches. I recommend that you find one, but, be careful, you might not like something about it...the preaching, the Bible classes, the music, or people sitting next to you may not suit you.

Horse Sense

A horse can't pull while kicking.
This fact I merely mention.
And he can't kick while pulling,
Which is my chief contention.

Let's imitate the good old horse
And lead a life that's fitting;
Just pull an honest load, and then
There'll be no time for kicking.

---Anonymous


God bless,
John

[Pointerman]

John,
A lot of wisdom in that poem. Thanks for your excellent post.

I agree 100%. There are tons of great churches out there. Not everything about them will be 100% to our liking, but the person next to us may think we stink also. Don't settle for heretical teaching, but don't complain because they don't use the grape juice that you prefer for communion. :P:

[Ynott]

Well John, I'm not in America. ;):

I live in England. I have a very nice church which gets it right "most" of the time and feel no call to leave it.

It provides excellent "milk", but no meat whatsoever.

My kids love it. My atheist husband tolerates it and so we attend this one.

The kid's programs are great, but sometimes the leaders get it "wrong". I've been careful to handle those small errors.

I'm dealing with it. I don't expect a perfect church.

My last church was in Italy. It had less than 20 people and provided BOTH meat and milk, so I know it can be done and doesn't rely upon the numbers!

Having had it before, I hunger for it still.

I am sure hoping to find such a church when I return to the states next year....until then, I am studying the bible using Wiersbe's commentaries and supplemental sources.

Doing the best I can with what I have. Making do, as my mother would say.

BUT IT COULD BE SO MUCH BETTER!

I still feel somewhat like a visitor at my church here after two years! That just isn't right. It wasn't like that before. I am involved and I talk and I share....but if I'm gone, nobody notices or asks after us (unlike before).

IT COULD BE SO MUCH BETTER!

Still, I plan on increasing my participation yet again and continuing to try. That's what I'm here for....to keep trying for the Lord.

Sure wish I had a church like you describe though.

[John Tyson]

Ynott,

Understand. During my 21-year career in the US Army I spent a good bit of time overseas. On my last three-year tour in W. Germany (Schweinfurt 1984-1987) I was a member little Baptist church there. We didn't have a pastor for the first year I was there. Got one from the States whose wife couldn't take the cultural change, so they left after only six-weeks, and then during my last year we got a good pastor (a retired US Army LTC) whose wife was a little off mentally. Needless to say, we had our ups and downs. But even today, I thank my God for Anderson Memorial Baptist Church. We had a membership that was made up German, Korean, Iranian, and Ethiopian nationals, in addition to us Americans that were of all colors. What an experience!

Story of my spiritual pride:
At Anderson Memorial Baptist Church in Schweinfurt, W. Germany, I was teaching the Adult Sunday School. It had be a rough week, "my turn in the barrel" at my HAWK missile battery where I was the maintenance warrant officer. I had not had much sleep that week and didn't get home until late Saturday night. But since I'm such a great Christian:rolleyes I got up early the next morning, prepare my lesson and with to church with my most tired (sackcloth and ashes) face on. See how dedicated of a Sunday School teacher I am? While teaching my class, there were two new folks there, both skinny Ethiopian men who listened very politely. After the class, I went and found the pastor so he could see my tired (sackcloth and ashes) face and he would also know just how dedicated of a Sunday School teacher I am. He didn't seem to notice my tiredness, but asked me if the Ethiopian men had told me their story. I said, "No." The pastor then told me their story. Those men had been members of a church in Ethiopia when the Communist took over Ethiopia. The church attempted to stay open but the Communist authorities came in and arrested all of the church leadership and put a lock on the door. The church never reopened. The church's pastor had spent two years in an Communist Ethiopian jail for being a pastor and the Sunday School teacher spent six months for being a teacher. One of the men in my class was the Sunday School teacher!!

I don't remember the topic of my Sunday School class that day, but I sure remember the class the Lord gave me that day about my sack cloth and ashes spiritual pride!
Matt 6:16
Whenever you fast, do not put on a gloomy face as the hypocrites do, for they neglect their appearance so that they will be noticed by men when they are fasting. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.

God bless,
John

[yankeedownsouth]

Originally posted by John Tyson
Ynott,

Understand. During my 21-year career in the US Army I spent a good bit of time overseas. On my last three-year tour in W. Germany (Schweinfurt 1984-1987) I was a member little Baptist church there. We didn't have a pastor for the first year I was there. Got one from the States whose wife couldn't take the cultural change, so they left after only six-weeks, and then during my last year we got a good pastor (a retired US Army LTC) whose wife was a little off mentally. Needless to say, we had our ups and downs. But even today, I thank my God for Anderson Memorial Baptist Church. We had a membership that was made up German, Korean, Iranian, and Ethiopian nationals, in addition to us Americans that were of all colors. What an experience!

Story of my spiritual pride:
At Anderson Memorial Baptist Church in Schweinfurt, W. Germany, I was teaching the Adult Sunday School. It had be a rough week, "my turn in the barrel" at my HAWK missile battery where I was the maintenance warrant officer. I had not had much sleep that week and didn't get home until late Saturday night. But since I'm such a great Christian:rolleyes I got up early the next morning, prepare my lesson and with to church with my most tired (sackcloth and ashes) face on. See how dedicated of a Sunday School teacher I am? While teaching my class, there were two new folks there, both skinny Ethiopian men who listened very politely. After the class, I went and found the pastor so he could see my tired (sackcloth and ashes) face and he would also know just how dedicated of a Sunday School teacher I am. He didn't seem to notice my tiredness, but asked me if the Ethiopian men had told me their story. I said, "No." The pastor then told me their story. Those men had been members of a church in Ethiopia when the Communist took over Ethiopia. The church attempted to stay open but the Communist authorities came in and arrested all of the church leadership and put a lock on the door. The church never reopened. The church's pastor had spent two years in an Communist Ethiopian jail for being a pastor and the Sunday School teacher spent six months for being a teacher. One of the men in my class was the Sunday School teacher!!

I don't remember the topic of my Sunday School class that day, but I sure remember the class the Lord gave me that day about my sack cloth and ashes spiritual pride!
Matt 6:16
Whenever you fast, do not put on a gloomy face as the hypocrites do, for they neglect their appearance so that they will be noticed by men when they are fasting. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.

God bless,
John


WOW. I don't know what else to say. Just WOW.

[glorymj]

That's truly an interesting story, John, but what does it have to do with the topic?

[discovergrace]

I would like to add this. I am not bashing my church in any way. I realize fully that it will never be perfect as long as humans attend. I also realize that it really is not my pastors responsibility nor my home groups responsibility to feed me spiritually. it is MY responsibility to feed me.
I enjoy sunday morning worship. The singing is great, and I love to shout and give my all on sunday morning. Sometimes...I get some meat and I walk away satisfied but I must say that sunday is not about ME it is about ME honoring and worshipping and praising Jesus for all that He has done for me and my family and the ones I love.
I go to church because I want to be of encouragement to those who need it. I go to church because I want to. I go to our home group because it provides what church does not and that is some really meaty and challenging teachings.
I go to my recliner to spend some quality time with God and learn what He has for me to do today.
I am far from perfect and I would be pretty self rightous to say that my church is not meeting ALL of my needs. it does...but I find I have to go elsewhere to get the balance that I need.
I pray for my pastor. I pray that God will strengthen him and give him what he needs to get through another week so he can be sensitive to the Holy Spirit's leading on sunday. Some sundays are just not as good as others is all.
I am being repsonsible in making sure that I am getting fed in the way that I need to be fed.

[Ynott]

Wonderful story, John. But I have to ask what it meant too? Was it to "bring pride" to my attention (again)?

I had just such a church as your describe in Italy. And I miss it terribly.

I do not have such a church here in England.

Perhaps I have been spoiled by people who truly sought the Lord's face.

I don't "put on faces", but I am aware of those who do.

So, I guess you do not believe that anyone should ever be disappointed in their church ... except in a theoretical (it must happen somewhere in the world) sorta way?

That is the message that you are sending.

That too is a false humility. For you must be all to aware that such churches truly do exist and many of us are "stuck" in them. You just don't seem to want to hear about them.

I guess some of us just can't win then.

We do our best in the churches we are presently attending. We ask for more from our pastors and are denied. We relate the story of our struggle and are called prideful.

It is no wonder then that people are moving into House Churches.

oh well....I'm very used to being in a "no win" situation. You see John, I've been overseas for more than a decade. Between language problems, doctrine problems, transience problems, pastors who don't believe problems, their wife doesn't believe problems, nobody showed up problems, etc. ....I've probably seen it all.... or at least much of it.

I have some great stories to tell as well. But they don't fit here.

There have been ups. And there have been downs. There have been good matches, poor matches, great matches, no matches.

I've read here of others who are struggling with the same problems that I am. That was the point of this thread.

But in the last few posts, I've received feedback NOT on the condition of the churches, but insinuations on those who are having difficulties IN these churches. And the blame is all too often placed upon the individual who struggles. That is really sad.

The Bible itself speaks of a failure of the churches in Revelation. Most of us here think we are living in the end times and that these churches are with us now (as they were then).

Yes, it has been a struggle throughout time (at least some paid lip service to that in their posts), but somehow, it is eschewed and put down when it is brought to the attention of the present generation.

That too is sad.

Many beat up the believer who is struggling FOR struggling. That type of condemnation of the brethren would be prideful on THEIR part.

That is beyond sad.

So, I guess I should let them teach that the pre-tribulation rapture is only believed by fools. Paul was a roman soldier. Those who believe in evolution aren't Chrisitans. All beliefs are okay in our church. Yes, all of these have been taught in my CURRENT church and often from the pulpit.

You're right. I should just shut up and "learn something" .... whole lot of "meat" in those statements.

It would be prideful of me to correct these thoughts in my children's heads.

How sad for all of us.

[John Tyson]

Grace and peace to you all.

Discovergrace said it well. You want to be fed more? The Lord has provided a banquet table here below for you to choose from. But be in a church were you serve others, encourage others, pray for others, help others grow and be fed.

The purpose of the story was to show that regardless how much we are having to struggle, or how much we are having to sacrifice, there are always others who will have more. We all struggle as that is part of the Christian walk and we should encourage one another. I'm not putting anyone down for that. But there just seems to be a lot of unhealthy whining going on here in this thread. "Some of us just can't win." We're Christian soldiers, buck up! Do we need to look again at the scriptures about enduring under trying times, rejoicing in the situation we are in, being of good cheer while in tribulations, of counting our blessings? If one is in a church that is not where the Lord would be pleased, get out and find another. But dropping out completely except for a computer bulletin board--do you truly suppose that is what the Lord would be pleased with? If we are in a weak church, maybe the Lord has put us there for a reason. Can the church provide both milk and meat? Maybe by your example, you are supposed to be the meat.

I'll take some of the fire off Harley. Fire away!

[glorymj]

Originally posted by John Tyson
But dropping out completely except for a computer bulletin board--do you truly suppose that is what the Lord would be pleased with? Actually, yes I believe that he can and IS pleased that we have left the "church" for the time. Many people have had their hiatus - their time in the wilderness so to speak - including Paul for example.

Tell me, what good does it do to attend a church that does you more harm than good? Why go if every Sunday you leave miserable and upset and need to spend many more hours un-indoctrinating the children from foolishness? What have you accomplished? You have not learned, you have not fellowshipped, you have not taught, you have not worshiped. Why go?

I think your conclusion that the posters in this thread are "whining" is presumptuous to say the least. If you have found a good church or even a tolerable church - great - I'm happy for you! But please don't minimize the problems that others of us are having or hijack us with emotional reasoning.

edited to fix spelling