Should a Christian be Ex-Communicated from a Church for Adultery [Archive]

mrsppmrxky

August 18th, 2003, 11:57 AM

The scriptures say that if you have a problem with your brother, you are to go to him. If he won't receive you, then you are to take another brother and talk with him. If he will not listen then, to go to the church and if not it can't be resolved, then break fellowship. (Matthew 18:15-17)

We had this happen in a church that we attended overseas. The pastor worked and worked with this couple. The woman refused to stop her affair and remained in our church.

After the numerous attempts at showing her how she was committing sin, the pastor brought the matter before the church. Because the sin was so openly committed and she invited people to visit our church, if the church did not take a stand, it would seem as if we had not Bibical standard on adultery. We voted to disfellowship her.

Her husband did not want us to do this, but he understood why we had to take a stand. She still attended our church and we treated her cordially, but she was no longer a member.

I have been in 2 churches where there was adultery committed and unrepented and was not dealt with. In both churches, there came a split that all hinged on these unrepentant sins. (1 church is no longer in existance.)

While it may seem harsh, unrepented sins will ruin a church. It doesn't have to be adultery, it could be someone that steals, or deals drugs. If it is open sin, it has to be dealt with openly. This is not causual sin, this is habitual open sin where the sinner refuses to repent.

Repent means to be sorry, and TURN from our wicked ways.

heatest

August 18th, 2003, 11:59 AM

If the person is unrepentant the church must deal with it. See also Matthew 18 and 1 Corinthians 5.

Bondservant

August 18th, 2003, 12:00 PM

Agree totally with Pointermans post. Here's the proof text:

1 Corinthians 5

Expel the Immoral Brother!

1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[1] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
6Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast--as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.
9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."[2]

MarkD

August 18th, 2003, 12:03 PM

1 Cor 5:9-13

9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men;
10 not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
11 But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber--not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
13 God judges those outside. "Drive out the wicked person from among you."

Notice that Paul is NOT saying to judge outsiders, but to drive out the wicked person from among you (ie: a professing christian). The implication from this passage also would indicate that this person is continuing in their immorality. Paul is not talking about driving out someone who is repentant.

[Edit to add: Ah, Bondservant, ya beat me to it.]

Ynott

August 18th, 2003, 12:18 PM

The earlier posters are correct. We love the sinner, but hate the sin. Paul's letters to the Corinthians were all about this problem. They were rampant with sin and thought that they okay because they were "saved".

Romans speaks to us of this as well in that though we are saved by Grace, this is NOT a license to sin!

We are indeed to humbly acknowledge that no one is without sin and that we too are sinners, BUT we ARE to point out sin. This can be done without attributions directed negatively at the sinner. The act is sinful. In fact, so is the thought, but we have no ability to "hear" that (thank you Lord!). We are to bring the sin to light and confront our brother or sister with this and give them the opportunity to repent.

Church IS full of sinners....but it is NOT supposed to be full of UNREPENTANT sinners. And therein lies the difference.

If the sinful behavior is not acknowledged and changed then yes, the individual should be asked to leave the congregation.

This is not ex-communication (except to the Catholics). It can be a time of chastisement (self-induced) and self reflection for the individual. Time spent with God will strengthen the spirit to fight the flesh's weakness.

Nobody said it was easy. It would indeed be hypocritical to allow the sinner to remain, unrepentant and sinning openly. This would invite disaster within a church.

My brother was asked to leave his church for living in sin with his girlfriend. He was a deacon. He is extremely knowledgeable about God and a devoutly professed Christian. He is still living in sin with his girlfriend.

I have confronted him with this and he knows how I feel. It led to "words" which distanced us for more than a year. We talk now, but not about his living arrangement. I will not "judge" him. He is my brother. I love him. I hate what he is doing. I can't understand how he can hurt Jesus like this. But there you have it. Good men (and women) do sin. The flesh is weak.

Love the sinner....hate the sin.

CINDY S.

August 18th, 2003, 12:30 PM

If a sinner was excommunicated for a "sin" then we all
should be excommunicated.

However, when I was a teenager our pastor was having
an affair with a married member of the congregation
and he was excommunicated and since divorced his wife,
left his kids and she left her family and they are now
married to each other. As awful as that was, even they
deserve forgiveness if they ask for it.

Rom831

August 18th, 2003, 12:50 PM

Jesus said He did not come for the righetous but for the sinner. They are who needs Him. If a person does something sinful, they are exactly who NEEDS to be in church, not excommunicated from it.

I get the most out of church when I have strayed. It helps convict me of my sin and draw me to repentance. Un fortunately, this isn't always immediate. Sometimes God has to work on me before I will admit my wrong and seek forgivness. Should I be cast out during this time? No, it will only drive me further away.

What they need to look at is this sinner's future. Can they help them come to repentance? Or maybe they have repented. Also, the repentance has to be in the form of repentance but not in the form the church is comfortable with. This could also include the person leaving the spouce, divorcing and being with the person. No, this is NOT desired. But it is no less so than any other divorced person (of which I am one) in a relationship.

But again, what would casting this person out accomplish? Would it show them their error and draw them back to Christ or would it anger them and have them abandon God all thogether? Even if it creates discomfort for a time, the salvation of the individules is what is important and not the comfort level of the members. (The ex who had multiple affairs on me and chose divorce over reconcilliation, still goes to my church. In fact we are still in the same band together and I still cannot stand her. At the begining it created massive tension all around. And again when she got engaged and remarried. And at times, it still does. But just because it is uncomfortable is not a reason to cast one of us out.)

God does not desire that any, including this person, be lost. So we should do all that is possible to help this person and not simply shun them. Only the one who is without sin should be the one to cast the stone.

Bless...ArtS

KrispyKritter

August 18th, 2003, 01:02 PM

Originally posted by RJs here
hmm..... I don't suppose that repentance would include living with another person?? ~ after just having left a spouse.....

WHAT EXACTLY would be considered "repentance" in this case??

..... just curious.

Repentence would be turning from their sin. Living w/their new honey would not be repentence. If they committed adultry then the other spouse may not necessarily take them back, and they may be faced with divorce... which would be ok according to scripture for the offended spouse. As for the spouse that committed the adultry... I personally believe that if they are truly repentent, then no, they should not remarry someone different. This would not apply to someone who cheated... their spouse divorces them, and then they get saved. I believe anything that happens pre-salvation is erased and the slate is wiped clean... then offender is free to remarry. Some may take issue with that... I'm just offering my opinion on what the scriptures teach.

But if someone cheats and the marriage splits and the offender is living with some new honey... and they dont turn from their sin... and think they can just conitnue on as a part of that church... the church has a responsibility scripturally to have nothing to do with them. Thats scripture, and it can not be ignored or waxed over simply because we feel they need to be in church. Supposedly they are already are Christians, and as such know the truth...

Proof of them knowing the truth is an example I gave of a situation like this in another post called "disheartened" ... a good Christian friend of mine got caught cheating. His wife kicked him out and filed for divorce. He's living with his new honey... and he is avoiding me like the plague. Why? Cuz he knows the truth...

coffeehubby

August 18th, 2003, 01:07 PM

In practice most churches do not excommunicate those people who openly rebel. The scriptures teach we are to do that sometimes, because their rebellion would affect the whole church...including the power of the churches testimony. Jesus taught that Himself, to take a matter privately between you and your offending brother first, then if he doesn't listen to you take a member of the church to listen to you and him him, and then bring the matter to the church if that fails. If he still won't listen, he is to be treated as a "tax collector."

Should they repent ( changed lifestyle) they should be welcomed back with open arms.

Ynott

August 18th, 2003, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by Rom831
Jesus said He did not come for the righetous but for the sinner. They are who needs Him. If a person does something sinful, they are exactly who NEEDS to be in church, not excommunicated from it.

I get the most out of church when I have strayed. It helps convict me of my sin and draw me to repentance. Un fortunately, this isn't always immediate. Sometimes God has to work on me before I will admit my wrong and seek forgivness. Should I be cast out during this time? No, it will only drive me further away.

What they need to look at is this sinner's future. Can they help them come to repentance? Or maybe they have repented. Also, the repentance has to be in the form of repentance but not in the form the church is comfortable with. This could also include the person leaving the spouce, divorcing and being with the person. No, this is NOT desired. But it is no less so than any other divorced person (of which I am one) in a relationship.

But again, what would casting this person out accomplish? Would it show them their error and draw them back to Christ or would it anger them and have them abandon God all thogether? Even if it creates discomfort for a time, the salvation of the individules is what is important and not the comfort level of the members. (The ex who had multiple affairs on me and chose divorce over reconcilliation, still goes to my church. In fact we are still in the same band together and I still cannot stand her. At the begining it created massive tension all around. And again when she got engaged and remarried. And at times, it still does. But just because it is uncomfortable is not a reason to cast one of us out.)

God does not desire that any, including this person, be lost. So we should do all that is possible to help this person and not simply shun them. Only the one who is without sin should be the one to cast the stone.

Bless...ArtS

Sorry Art, but that is your "feeling" on the subject and YOUR opinion. God (through scripture) has been very clear on how we are to deal with a wayward believer.

Sounds really good, but destroys the church. What is the point of becoming a believer and then using it as a license to sin?

These thoughts make a mockery of the faith. You are not "helping" a sinner by allowing him to continue in his sin and ignoring it. And chastising him from the pulpit each week won't exactly benefit him or the church either. That is why the offender is taken aside and counselled by two or more members of the brethren. He has ample opportunity to reflect upon his sinful nature.

To continue in HABITUAL sin in full view of the church is not scriptural.

Pray for those who go astray. Do not forsake them. You can talk to them, counsel them outside of church, but they have wandered far from our Lord when they actively and willfully continue in their sin. Unrepentant sin is NOT condoned by Christ.

Recall his words, "go and sin no more". He did not condemn her. Neither should we condemn our brethren.

It is as simple as this:

1. Bring it to their attention and counsel them.

2. Allow time for counseling and repentance.

3. No repentance? They must leave the fellowship of believers for indeed in their hearts, they already have.

They are welcome to rejoin upon repentance. I know of no church who would "hold it over their heads" if they were to repent.

GAB

August 18th, 2003, 01:29 PM

Back when I was an Episcopalian and the Episcopalians hadn't gone totally apostate, the rule was that a person whose private life invited scandal could attend Church, but not take communion. This way the person can hear the living Word of God, and be led to repentance, but the cost of living a sinful life was brought to them.

By all means, let the person in sin come to church! However, he or she should not be in an office of authority. (Titus).

KrispyKritter

August 18th, 2003, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by Ynott
They are welcome to rejoin upon repentance. I know of no church who would "hold it over their heads" if they were to repent.

And I know of no institutional churches that practice Biblical church discipline. Not saying their arent any... I just dont know of any.

In our house church we have done it... same kind of situation. He wouldnt repent, and I had to send him packing. Basically told him he wasnt welcome in my home around my children, and he wasnt welcome to be a part of our fellowship until he changed his ways. He too avoids me like the plague and slanders me. Oh well... Jesus was slandered too for standing up for the Word.

KrispyKritter

August 18th, 2003, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by GAB
By all means, let the person in sin come to church! However, he or she should not be in an office of authority. (Titus).

Wrong wrong wrong wrong.... scripture is the final authority, and scripture demands that the unrepentant one be sent out from among the fellowship. It's right there in black and white.

Let the unsaved sinner come in... yes. But a believer who turns to sin and refuses to repent is to be sent out. There is no argument here... either you believe scripture or you dont.

Ynott

August 18th, 2003, 01:57 PM

You are absolutely correct, Krispy.

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. (Proverbs 3:5)

For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. (1 Cor 6:20)

"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.” (Matthew 7:13-14)

Search Romans 6:15 and throughout the bible for affirmation.

Others can post the "instructions" on how to approach the brethren in such matters. To ignore the word of God in favor of "feel good" protestations does not serve God's will or the sinner's plight.

To ignore or accept the sin is to condone it. You too then will become "an accessory after the fact" if you will.

In Jeremiah, we read where the prophets spoke falsely and the people believed them. God punished both the "false prophets" and those who "believed" them.

Be very careful and be very berean.

antsinmypants

August 18th, 2003, 02:19 PM

Galatians 5
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

2 Peter 2
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

1 Corinthians 5:1 - It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is living with his father's wife.

1 Corinthians 5:9 - I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men...

Ynott

August 18th, 2003, 02:23 PM

And know this, people aren't saved by churches. God alone saves and He doesn't need the church to "get somebody's attention". The Holy Spirit is resident in each believer and is a far better witnessing tool than polite ignorance from an all too knowing congregation.

Also know that the Lord moves according to HIS plan and not ours. Too often, we feel that WE are the answer or the church is the answer when in truth, God alone is the ONLY answer!

Believers have the Holy Spirit and their Bibles. They have two witnesses to confront them (if they are lucky enough to have been a part of a bible believing church!). In time and through God's will, that will be enough....if the person is truly saved.

We cannot know another's heart, but the Lord does. We have instructions on the matter and we shouldn't question them.

By all means pray for lost souls. Many have backslidden. But be salt and light! We witness...Jesus saves!

It is purely prideful to believe that a sinner needs the church. The sinner needs Jesus! And Jesus is not confined to a building.

Jael

August 18th, 2003, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
And I know of no institutional churches that practice Biblical church discipline. Not saying their arent any... I just dont know of any.[/B]

Mine does...it's very painful all around. At times like that you really understand that we are a body. It's like losing a part of yourself. Also our pastor really emphasizes that the person is still our brother/sister and will absolutely be welcome back when they have repented and turned back to God. Because it's known that we do practice church discipline, most people who are really determined to embrace a lifestyle of sin just leave...

Ynott

August 18th, 2003, 02:36 PM

And that is also another excellent point. Everybody gets hurt! The assumption here is that the sinner is alone in a vacuum and is only hurting himself. Not so! He is actively and I might add "maliciously (with complete foreknowledge)" hurting the body (the church of believers if you will).

In fact, this sinner whom many would choose to ignore to "expose them" to the wonderful teachings of the church, is also exposing the church to willful (and tacitly condoned if not openly condoned) sin! That's a GREAT message to send to the brethren...the new believers will surely feel free to act upon this revelation...as will the very young and impetuous teenage believers.

It cuts both ways. It is awful to lose a member in this fashion. But is tantamount to tragedy to fail in doing God's will in the matter. He is far wiser than we are, knowing the end from the beginning.

antsinmypants

August 18th, 2003, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by GAB
By all means, let the person in sin come to church! However, he or she should not be in an office of authority. (Titus).

To quote Krispy "Wrong, wrong, wrong wrong WRONG!"

The letter to Titus from Paul says:

Titus 1
7An elder[2] must live a blameless life because he is God's minister. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered; he must not be a heavy drinker, violent, or greedy for money. 8He must enjoy having guests in his home and must love all that is good. He must live wisely and be fair. He must live a devout and disciplined life. 9He must have a strong and steadfast belief in the trustworthy message he was taught; then he will be able to encourage others with right teaching and show those who oppose it where they are wrong.
10For there are many who rebel against right teaching; they engage in useless talk and deceive people. This is especially true of those who insist on circumcision for salvation. 11They must be silenced. By their wrong teaching, they have already turned whole families away from the truth. Such teachers only want your money. 12One of their own men, a prophet from Crete, has said about them, "The people of Crete are all liars; they are cruel animals and lazy gluttons." 13This is true. So rebuke them as sternly as necessary to make them strong in the faith.

Titus 2
11For the grace of God has been revealed, bringing salvation to all people. 12And we are instructed to turn from godless living and sinful pleasures. We should live in this evil world with self-control, right conduct, and devotion to God, 13while we look forward to that wonderful event when the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be revealed. 14He gave his life to free us from every kind of sin, to cleanse us, and to make us his very own people, totally committed to doing what is right. 15You must teach these things and encourage your people to do them, correcting them when necessary. You have the authority to do this, so don't let anyone ignore you or disregard what you say.

Titus 3
10If anyone is causing divisions among you, give a first and second warning. After that, have nothing more to do with that person. 11For people like that have turned away from the truth. They are sinning, and they condemn themselves.

cameron222

August 18th, 2003, 02:53 PM

If the preacher is bold he will preach against adultery and fornication and such and hopefully convict the church member of their sin and lead them to repentance.

Repentance means to turn away from the sin and give it up......if someone does not give it up, they may need to be talked to, or else the church could become complacent and condoning of sin.

But then again, if all sinners were kicked out of the church, the building would soon become empty. I once knew a lady in our church who was known to be sleeping with her boyfriend and whenever I looked at her, that was the first thought that came to mind.......sexual sins can devestate the church.

antsinmypants

August 18th, 2003, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by Ynott
And that is also another excellent point. Everybody gets hurt! The assumption here is that the sinner is alone in a vacuum and is only hurting himself. Not so! He is actively and I might add "maliciously (with complete foreknowledge)" hurting the body (the church of believers if you will).

In fact, this sinner whom many would choose to ignore to "expose them" to the wonderful teachings of the church, is also exposing the church to willful (and tacitly condoned if not openly condoned) sin! That's a GREAT message to send to the brethren...the new believers will surely feel free to act upon this revelation...as will the very young and impetuous teenage believers.

It cuts both ways.

You are so so so right.

While I was working in the photo lab at walmart, I had a girl that worked at another store come to our lab and work with us -- was a fellow believer and asked me the "oddest question" I had heard in my 21 years.

She said that she was trying to have a baby and was encountering problems, had even done everything possible except fertility treatments (Felt that these were wrong, and "playing G-d"..) and that she had gone before her church and they had laid hands on her.

I asked her about her husband, and etc and if she thought maybe this was one of those things that G-d just says "wait" on.

Then she says that she and her boyfriend Were living together etc; and then I realised what was going on.

I told her to think about this long and hard- and that because they both were professing to be believers etc, and within the week I had been talking with her about the bible and what it says about marriage and children, and she came to the conclusion on her own that this was what her problem was-- putting the cart in front of her horse.

I haven't seen her since, and from what I can remember, she and her boyfriend changed their style of living until they could get married.... and we didn't even attend the same church!

:wave

KrispyKritter

August 18th, 2003, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by cameron222
If the preacher is bold he will preach against adultery and fornication and such and hopefully convict the church member of their sin and lead them to repentance.

Repentance means to turn away from the sin and give it up......if someone does not give it up, they may need to be talked to, or else the church could become complacent and condoning of sin.

But then again, if all sinners were kicked out of the church, the building would soon become empty. I once knew a lady in our church who was known to be sleeping with her boyfriend and whenever I looked at her, that was the first thought that came to mind.......sexual sins can devestate the church.

We're all sinners... the difference here is if someone is in sin (sexual sin in this case) and it's pointed out to them either thru the Holy Spirit or another believer... and they just ignore it and continue on... then they are to be expelled. I sin, you sin... we all sin. The difference is that when someone points it out to me, and I see it for what it is... hopefully I will repent of it.

Wileyzmuse

August 18th, 2003, 03:13 PM

"expel the <sexually> immoral brother from among you."

I believe that when an unrepentent person is living in their sin and refuses to repent (turn from the sin and do what is right) then we are not to associate with them. If that means to suspend their church membership, then yes. It may mean just not allowing that person to serve in a leadership role...but the Bible does say to expel them from among you....

God came to save the sinner, but we are talking here only about Christians who commit adultery (there are many.) I believe that verse is in order to protect other Christians who are weak in their faith from falling as well.

:sigh

cindyw

August 18th, 2003, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by Pointerman
The key to Jesus' statment was the "go an sin NO MORE" part of the statement. If she went off and continued to sin Jesus certainly would have passed judgement on her. Jesus judged people all of the time.

The church is called to deal with sin in it's members lives. This is why we have Elders. They are called to protect the spiritual integrity of the church of Jesus Christ. If a member REFUSES to repent then should the church stand behind them, pat them on the back and say "It's OK, we all sin. Enjoy your adulterous afair and enjoy your bread and wine with us." I would not want to attend a church that behaved in such a manner. The church is certainly to be full of grace, but it should attack sin where ever it appears within it's ranks. Sorry, but if the guy refuses to end the affair then the church has no recourse but to treat him like an unbeliever.

:thumb

mrsppmrxky

August 18th, 2003, 03:56 PM

The church has to be so careful in how they handle a situation like this. Like a previous poster stated, the church discipline hurts the ENTIRE church to the very core. It is like having a death in your immediate family. It is not something that is done lightly or without much prayer cover.

The onlookers in the church, the teens and small children, will either see that sin has a price to paid or that it is okay and just wink at sin.

Because churches have fallen down in this area, that is why we have to deal with the apostasy in the church now. We say we don't condone sin, but then we wink or even make jokes about what is going on.

I believe this falls under the church that has left it's first love and has become lukewarm.

We all need to remember that God has a standard and it doesn't matter if "I" agree with it or not.

Pointerman

August 18th, 2003, 03:58 PM

I must say that this thread has brightened my spirits. So often we subvert the word of God with how we "feel" we should handle issues based on our own logic. To see so many replies that are spot on with God's word brings joy to my heart even though the topic is not one of joy. God's word must always come first. Our logic must always take the back seat.

Pointerman

August 18th, 2003, 04:01 PM

Originally posted by cameron222
If the preacher is bold he will preach against adultery and fornication and such and hopefully convict the church member of their sin and lead them to repentance.

Nah, is the pastor was bold he would confront the person face to face as the Bible tells us to do. Preaching from the pulpit to the entire congregation about an issue that one person needs disciplining on is the chicken way out. :tsk

antsinmypants

August 18th, 2003, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by Wileyzmuse
"expel the <sexually> immoral brother from among you."

It may mean just not allowing that person to serve in a leadership role...but the Bible does say to expel them from among you....

God came to save the sinner, but we are talking here only about Christians who commit adultery (there are many.) I believe that verse is in order to protect other Christians who are weak in their faith from falling as well.

:sigh

I'm sorry Patricia, but it does say to expel:

It says in the NLT:

1 Corinthians 5
9When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin. 10But I wasn't talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or who are greedy or are swindlers or idol worshipers. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that. 11What I meant was that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a Christian yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Don't even eat with such people.
12It isn't my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your job to judge those inside the church who are sinning in these ways. 13God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, "You must remove the evil person from among you."

and in the KJV:

9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Verse 13 :

Therefore [2532] kai
put away [1808] exairo
from [1537] ek
among yourselves [5216] humon
that [846] autos
wicked person. [4190] poneros

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1061236739-3146.html#13

Put away:
from 1537 and 142
Part of Speech
v
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to lift up or take away out of a place

2) to remove

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 2
AV - take away 1, put away 1; 2

I think this shows it literally means removal, much as what the Mennonites, Amish and Quakers do, and as the Jewish Synogogues of old did.

antsinmypants

August 18th, 2003, 04:06 PM

Jael

August 18th, 2003, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by Pointerman
Nah, is the pastor was bold he would confront the person face to face as the Bible tells us to do. Preaching from the pulpit to the entire congregation about an issue that one person needs disciplining on is the chicken way out.

Originally posted by antsinmypants
I totally disagree. Preaching the Bible about EVERYTHING - including this, will teach children, teens and new believers (as well as refreshing the memory of older believers) will help out in the long run.

There were two churches if not three that I have attended in the past 15 years that has had this problem, and after the problem was being rectified, the preacher was preaching on this subject matter without mentioning people's names.

and i give him a total :thumb

I think I understand what Pointerman means...not that the pastor should NOT preach on such topics to the congregation at large, but that general preaching is no substitute for going to that person directly, as the Bible says. Sometimes people preach a general sermon because they are reluctant to deal with the person face-to-face, and that is sort of chickening out. It is awkward and uncomfortable to confront someone about sin, but church leaders are called to do just that. But there's nothing wrong with preaching it from the pulpit in addition to dealing with the person directly. :):

GAB

August 18th, 2003, 05:42 PM

I would think that denying someone communion in a liturgical church IS putting them out of the community.

antsinmypants

August 18th, 2003, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by Jael
I think I understand what Pointerman means...not that the pastor should NOT preach on such topics to the congregation at large, but that general preaching is no substitute for going to that person directly, as the Bible says. Sometimes people preach a general sermon because they are reluctant to deal with the person face-to-face, and that is sort of chickening out. It is awkward and uncomfortable to confront someone about sin, but church leaders are called to do just that. But there's nothing wrong with preaching it from the pulpit in addition to dealing with the person directly. :):

I can agree with that

Pointerman

August 18th, 2003, 06:20 PM

Thanks Jael. You clarified my point perfectly. I appreciate your assistance. What you typed is EXACTLY what I meant.

SapphireGrl

August 18th, 2003, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by antsinmypants
I'm sorry Patricia, but it does say to expel:

It says in the NLT:

1 Corinthians 5
9When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin. 10But I wasn't talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or who are greedy or are swindlers or idol worshipers. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that. 11What I meant was that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a Christian yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Don't even eat with such people.
12It isn't my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your job to judge those inside the church who are sinning in these ways. 13God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, "You must remove the evil person from among you."
I specifically wanted to highlight the sentence about not even eating with such a person because that is how serious God takes this. He is saying don't even be around this person! Don't eat with them, don't fellowship with them, period.

So, I don't see how disfellowshipping with an unrepentant Christian, the way that 1 Corinthians 5 orders us to, can be accomplished without physically putting them out of the church.

antsinmypants

August 19th, 2003, 05:23 PM

:nod

Wileyzmuse

August 19th, 2003, 06:17 PM

You guys are great!! Thanks for keeping it real! I'd forgotten about the "with such a person do not even eat." Strong words. Hard to water them down without throwing out the whole text.

Rom831

August 21st, 2003, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by Ynott
Sorry Art, but that is your "feeling" on the subject and YOUR opinion. God (through scripture) has been very clear on how we are to deal with a wayward believer.

Sounds really good, but destroys the church. What is the point of becoming a believer and then using it as a license to sin?

No one said it is a license to sin. But this is not my "feeling". What I said I backed up with Biblical verses. Before you start casting out sinners, I suggest you take a close look again at who we all are and who Jesus and the disciples went to. Who are we to cast anyone out or forbid anyone from hearing the Word of God? Are you really claiming the right to deny this to a person? What does God's word say about hindering someone from coming to the Lord?

Do you have a car? A computer? A nice house? Do you go on vacations? to movies? The mall for things you don't really need? How many nights is there food not wasted on your table? All this and do you not know that you have brothers and sisters throughout the world who do not have food? Who right now only have moments to live for lack of a scrap of food to eat? Do you not know that there are millions of your brothers and sisters right now nearing death because they have no clean water to drink or medicines to save them? Do you not know that there are millions of lost, ready to be lead to salvation if only they had someone who would teach them?

The Bible is very clear these are your responsibilities. These are things you are told to take care of. Yet do you have and do those luxaries? Oops, looks like you are a sinner. Repent and do as Jesus said to be perfect, sell all your wealth and give to those who are in need. Stop being greedy and pampering yourself while others suffer. Can't bring yourself to do it? Honestly, neither can I. Looks like we should both be excommunicated. Either that or we should be in the church, listening to God and being convicetd of our greed and other sins so that our hearts may be changed into being either a cheerful giver (as again scripture tells us) or a more cheerful giver.

I'm not chastising you any more than I am myself. But to be dictator over who can have God's Word is not part of our Great Commission.

Bless...ArtS

KrispyKritter

August 21st, 2003, 09:52 AM

Art... there is a big difference between buying a new car... and being unrepentant about sexual immorality. And you know it. You're argument doesnt hold water. Scripture is clear about this whole topic... I'm sorry that you cant see it.

Jael

August 21st, 2003, 10:47 AM

Art, we should never substitute our own fallible human reasoning for God's explicit directives given to us in the scriptures...

1Cr 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

This is how the Lord tells the church to handle open sin within the body...He would not have included this directive in scripture if He had not intended us to follow it.

mrsppmrxky

August 21st, 2003, 12:08 PM

This may seem very harsh to us. I admit that it hurts EVERYONE in the church when this takes place, but I am reminded of the Scripture that states,

"God's ways are not our ways."

He is a Holy God that doesn't have to explain Himself to us mortals. He chooses to do as He wishes. Our obligation and reasonable service it to obey Him.

If a person is going to go about this in a superior manner thinking that they are better person than the person put out of the church, then they are guilty of far worse and while this sin maybe hidden, you can rest assured that God sees all and will deal with it in His way.

KrispyKritter

August 21st, 2003, 12:46 PM

Where my buddy Art is getting confused is this passage of scripture pertains to specific sins... all of them immoral. Throwing food away at night when there are hungry people hardly compares to someone who is living in out and out rebellion against the Word of God... and is therefore flaunting it in His face because they refuse to repent. We all sin... and if we are following the Lord, when He points out our sin we will want to repent. That is the difference. For the life of me I cant understand why someone who is living an immoral lifestyle and isnt interested in repenting would even want to be a part of a church...

Ynott

August 21st, 2003, 12:57 PM

I have found as I study the bible more and more thoroughly that what I thought I knew was in error.

It either all hangs together as a congruent and coherent whole as TRUTH or it fails.

What some people do is take a passage or two out of context and ascribe their own interpretations to it, extending it way beyond its applicable and contextual boundaries.

There are EXPLICIT verses dealing with this very subject. You either believe them or not. The bible is VERY CLEAR ON THIS ISSUE.

Scripture has been provided and I ask you Art to explain your position based upon the scripture which is DIRECTLY applicable to this situation.

When a BELIEVER sins within the congregation. .... Please explain how you can take your position and ignore what the good book actually says.

Rom831

August 21st, 2003, 01:38 PM

I used scripture. YOU deemed in nonrelavant. But that doesnt make it so.

If you still want to judge and cast someone out, I can't stop you. You ask why keep someone who is an adulterer? What IS adultry? It is a sin. The Bible says if you are guilty of breaking ANY law, you are guilty of breaking ALL the Law. An unrepentant sinner is an unrepentant sinner reguardless of the sin.

The situation I described IS valid. It is describing greed and greed is one of "the seven deadly sins". You may want to sugar coat it and make it not sound so bad, but that changes nothing. One single payment on that new car Krispy tried to shrug off can feed a starving family for literally months. Yet where to we spend that money? That is greed and selfishness. We are not putting our brother first nor are we loving them as we love ourselves.

Don't like that example? I can find others. But the point is we all sin and there are some that we do over and over. And your reply to what I posted is exactly why we need to not simply cast out a fellow sinner. Until you are without sin, don't cast stones.

Now, is that person destroying the church? Is that person causing a drift from Christ? Are they leading others astray? Then as scripture says, they need to be rebuked. But if they are sinning and making excuses, denying it as a problem or whatever, and continue to sin, they are doing nothing more than those here who are denying what I describe is greed and selfishness and therefore a sin they need to repent from. They then need guidance and rebuking and teaching. Not to be judged and forbidden from receiving the Word.

All you are doing is running around the pews on a witch hunt for those you can point to as "worse sinners" than you so you can feel better about your sin. You (and I) are no better, no less sinners, and need Jesus no less than they.

Again, who are you to forbid them from hearing God's word?

Bless...ArtS

Ynott

August 21st, 2003, 01:57 PM

Art, Art, Art....so you think "in a church" is the only place that they can "hear the word of God"? I have news for you, I wasn't "saved" in a church...or BY a church for that matter....so, that argument is ridiculous.

The church doesn't save. I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Again, address the passages which speak SPECIFICALLY TO AN UNREPENTANT SINNING BELIEVER WITHIN THE CONGREGATION. You are talking "around the issue" and redefining "sin". That is incorrect.

If your interpretation is "correct" then the explicit passages are WRONG. So, what you are saying IN EFFECT, is that the bible is FULL OF ERRORS.

Is this not true?

Both interpretations cannot be correct.

All must be true or the bible errs.

It makes more sense to believe that in fact, you have erred in your interpretation. Can you not see that?

Rom831

August 21st, 2003, 02:00 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ynott
When a BELIEVER sins within the congregation. .... Please explain how you can take your position and ignore what the good book actually says.

Because we ALL sin. Which sinners get to stay?

I lived an immoral lifestyle for a while. I didn't see it as sinful because I rationalized it away. But through continued hearing of God's Word, I was convicted to the point of finally giving in and repenting.

Now by your stance, I should have been cast out and forbidden in. And having been judged and excommunicated, I would have been pissed and never gone back. I would have continued to worship the god of my own creation and snubbed those "Christian-types) who snubbed me. If my church had found out and followed you, I'd most likely be one of lost. Fortunately for me I wasn't and was eventually convicted of my sins into repentance.

Now, had I been recruting, had I been trying to convince others into my false belifes, had I been parading it around, very much yes I should be asked to leave or stop. But agian, I was a sinner then, I am a sinner now and I still have the sins I have problems letting go of. I am just thankful my church is also full of sinners who want me to grow in my faith and not full of ones on a hunt to cast out sinners "worse" than they.

Bless...ArtS

Ynott

August 21st, 2003, 02:05 PM

I want to seriously address the central issue here and that is piecemeal "feel good" interpretation.

What we are disagreeing about here isn't even relevant so much as the manner in which we are disagreeing.

Let us begin again with this premise or your refutation of same.

The bible is inerrant in its original language.

Is this a truism or not?

If it is true, then the ENTIRE bible must be read for all of its relevant applications and not a "pick me pick me" piecemeal approach which is all too common today.

I think your heart is very much in the right place, Art. I do. But I do not think you have thoroughly read and digested ALL of the applicable passages here. In fact, you have a very real blind spot with regard to judgment of any kind it would seem.

Please take some time to review these posts with applicable passages from scripture and do a thorough study of your own. Do not "write them off" because they "don't feel right" to you..and you've already made up your mind..I urge you to do this as a fellow believer.

It is a very difficult thing to do....to constantly review what you believe in light of what the scripture actually says. I still do this.

Be berean, not dogmatic.

Ynott

August 21st, 2003, 02:08 PM

Art, read this very carefully, for you seem to have skipped it time and time again in every single post.

The church is full of sinners.

The church is NOT supposed to be full of UNREPENTANT sinners.

That is the difference.

That is what Paul speaks of.

Get the difference yet?

KrispyKritter

August 21st, 2003, 02:40 PM

I agree... unrepentant is the key word in all this. Everyone agrees that we all sin. But that does not make us unrepentant. Paul is referring to people who sin against God in an immoral way that goes directly against the Word of God... and they dont care. They say "Hey... I know what the Bible says, but I love this woman, and we're gonna have our affair... and it doesnt matter because God loves me anyway... blah blah..." Thats what we're discussing here.

Art... I'm a little surprised that you're not understanding this. We've discoursed before, and you're pretty solid. I dont understand what is so hard to understand about this.

Let me give you an example that we had pop up in our house church network. A "friend's" wife had passed away. THey have children. He has a married lady friend who was friends with his wife before she died. After her death the widower and this married lady begin to be seen around town together... a lot. I asked him about it, and he said "oh... she's just helping w/the kids." Next thing I know I hear that she has left her husband, and that he is "giving her a place to stay". So I confirm this. I again approached him and informed him that he had no business having her in the house... even if she was sleeping on the couch. If nothing else, this wasnt a good example to be setting for the kids. "Oh, it's nothing... nothing is going on". I thought "yea... right". Well... then she gets a divorce. Then they get engaged. Then they decided after they got engaged that they would like to begin attending one of our house churches. I went to him and said "Look man... I cant let you attend one of these fellowships. She left her husband for you, which is adultry. And now you're both living together, which is fornication." He said to me "Krispy... (actually he used my real name!) God has sent this woman to me." And I said "Man, you about the most decieved person I have ever met if you really think that." We went around and around and he tried to convince me that there was nothing wrong with the situation. This is someone who claims to have been saved years ago. This is no recent "convert". I finally said "Look... you're not welcome in our fellowships until you repent of this and get things right with God. I cant allow this into the fellowships. And you're not welcome in my house anymore around my kids. I'll not have this influence on my family."

He told me to go to hell.

They have now married and are attending a "feel good" mega-church.

That is the unrepentant sinner that we are discussing here.

jegs2

August 21st, 2003, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by billiefan2000
I wanna hear your thoughts on this.

The church leadership should confront the Christian in question, giving him or her a chance to repent (stop sinning). A refusal on the part of the man or woman in question would be a rejection of the authority of the church, and so excommunication would be in order.

Rom831

August 22nd, 2003, 08:33 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ynott
If it is true, then the ENTIRE bible must be read for all of its relevant applications and not a "pick me pick me" piecemeal approach which is all too common today.

I think your heart is very much in the right place, Art. I do. But I do not think you have thoroughly read and digested ALL of the applicable passages here. In fact, you have a very real blind spot with regard to judgment of any kind it would seem.

Please take some time to review these posts with applicable passages from scripture and do a thorough study of your own. Do not "write them off" because they "don't feel right" to you..and you've already made up your mind..I urge you to do this as a fellow believer.

I agree this IS the problem in our disagreement, but I believe it is on the wrong foot. You are looking at the passages where the Bible says to cast out the sinner and sticking by it. There is nothing inherantly wrong with that except that the hard core stance on that does not fit with the rest of the scriptures that I have stated. You absolutely must incorporate ALL of scripture into it.

You all have done a very nice job of incorporating the casting out parts, but not in light of the rest of scripture. Somehow we have to incorporate ALL of it. And as I have pointed out (or tried to), we are ALL sinners and there ARE things that we ALL do that, if we are honest, that we're not really repentant over.

Being repentant isn't about feeling guilty, isn't about knowing you should do something else, its about stopping what you shouldn't be doing, turning around and doing what you should. I don't understand how me saying we are ALL unrepentant about some things and ALL need to change and do what is right is a "feel-good" doctrine. I am saying 'look at yourself (goes for me too), take the plank out of your eye, repent and straighten up for you are no less guilty than those you want to point at.' While yours is saying 'look at how bad you are. If you don't repent...."

No, you cant ignore the bad parts for the good. But you can't ignore the bad parts that point to you in favor of those that point to others. The call to repentance is to ALL of us for ALL sins, not just the ones we deem as 'big sins'. We cannot point our fingers at someone else and chastise them as unrepentant for a particular sin while we are still unrepentant for ANY sin.

As long as we are not TOTALLY repentant for ALL our sins, we best be careful about condeming and casting out others. And this includes greed, selfishness, not loving our neighbors as ourselves and putting ourselves and our wants above other's needs. But with knowing this is true not just of those we want to point at but true of 99% of all of us we can see there would be no one left IN the church to cast us out. So we have to look further.

You continue "The church is NOT supposed to be full of UNREPENTANT sinners... Get the difference yet?"

The difference I get is that you believe that you are totally repentant of every sin including those I mention. Again, repentance is NOT asking forgivness, it is not feeling bad or knowing what you did was wrong. That is being convicted of your sin. Repentance is TURNING FROM your sin; not doing it anymore. Paul even admits that he is not fully able to do this.

As I sit here contemplating the fifty bucks I blew on stupid stuff for my camping trip tonight, relizing it was as much as I gave BOTH the families I sponsor for food, what crosses my mind? How I can help them more? No, more stupid stuff I need to get before I can go play. do I feel I should do something different? Yes. Do I feel bad that the kids I sponser don't have much of anything? Yep (I sent them Christmas money, instead of a gift for themselves, one bought a cow and the other two goats). Will I go out tonight and spend my money on citranella tiki torch oil and beef jerky instead. Yep. That's selfishness, not repentance.

Bless...ArtS

KrispyKritter

August 22nd, 2003, 08:48 AM

So I guess Paul didnt really mean what he said then. But then, if thats the case... maybe we need to question the rest of the Bible too.

Paul was very specific about which sins he was referring to. They were all concerning morality... especially sexual immorality.

Rom831

August 22nd, 2003, 08:49 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KrispyKritter
I agree... unrepentant is the key word in all this.

See my long post on why I believe we are all unrepentant to some degree

Let me give you an example...

Ok, let me try two examples on you.

1) My wife left me for another man. I tried to get her to leave the affair - no. I tried to get her to come back - no. I tried to get her to counselling - no. Instead she divorced me. Should she be barred from our church? What if she stayed with him and married him? Barred? What if your guy married that woman? What if any divorcee gets remarried?

2) I have a girlfriend. I am really hopeful on this and would like to see it lead to marriage. But no way to know yet. I'm pretty good at following most of God's laws, but have to admit, I am simply no good on that no premarital sex part. I can say now I'll try to avoid it, but I know when together, I'll give in. Excommunicate me?

Bless...ArtS

antsinmypants

August 22nd, 2003, 08:49 AM

to be a "judge" or discerner in a congregation, you have to have much prayer as an elder-- and have removed the sin (Beam/plank/splinter) from your life, and had a heart to heart with YHVH, to go to the UNREPENTANT SEXUAL SINNER... and ask them to please stop, to witness to them, show them the applicable scripture etc- and tell them (IF they are a member) that this goes against what Messiah Y'shua has taught, and the guidelines of the entire Bible.

If they don't listen- you go again with another..

If they still don't listen- You go with TWO witnesses.. and if still not- - -you take them to the rest of the elders, and the decision is made to remove the person from the rest of the congregation.

Why? They haven't repented- they have become defiant in their actions.

Why? Because- the younger people will see that this is not something punishable, thereby "G-d couldn't possibly see it as wrong"...

Why? Because new believers will think the same as the younger people...

Why? Because the older believers will be so upset about what is happening-- they might leave the congregation because the situation hasn't been dealt with BIBLICALLY.

Why? Because a little bit of mold, leavens the whole lump-- and if left alone- RUINS IT.

That in itself explains what Paul said- in 1st and 2nd Corinthians about sexual sin and the believers-- and the congregation they're meeting at.

Sorry you'd be one of those so defiant and upset about getting "let go".. but - defiance merits punishment- even as the whole of the bible teaches.... just as lying and sexual sins.. and witchcraft. -- in the bible-- these are all ranked on the SAME level, and it's said that all of these (Fornicators, Liars, Sorcerers, homoxexuals etc. ) Inherit the lake of fire.

If you don't believe me- ask my mom-- because she's said it enough to me when I was little :P:

:wave

Jael

August 22nd, 2003, 08:53 AM

Art, your position requires us to believe that God gave us a command that He never intended us to obey...the Lord knew that no one in the church would be completely perfected and free from sin in this life, yet He still gave us instructions about how to deal with a specific category of open, unrepented sins within the church body. God does not contradict Himself, and He was very clear on this issue. I have to believe that He knew what He was doing when the Holy Spirit inspired that particular scripture to be written.

antsinmypants

August 22nd, 2003, 08:54 AM

Originally posted by Ynott
Art, read this very carefully, for you seem to have skipped it time and time again in every single post.

The church is full of sinners.

The church is NOT supposed to be full of UNREPENTANT sinners.

That is the difference.

That is what Paul speaks of.

Get the difference yet?

Right on.

The difference here: Sinners are people trying to do right, constantly binding themselves closer to G-d.

Unrepentant Sinners: Constantly backpedalling and trying to bind theirselves to the world-- aka the master of this world HaSatan--- and creating stumbling blocks for those who are trying (as David, Paul or even Timothy... Titus or a myriad of others in the bible) to do RIGHT and LIVE right.

We can't have that in the congregations- why? It causes too many problems.

"A little chametz levens the whole loaf".

What is Chametz? It's a little bit of old loaf aka a little molded bread- put in with the rest of the dough to make it leavened.. why? because there didn't used to be "readily available yeast"..
Why is the analogy used? because- a little bit of sexual sin-- leads to ALOT of sexual sin-- and alot of other things.

KrispyKritter

August 22nd, 2003, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by Rom831
[QUOTE]Originally posted by KrispyKritter
[B]2) I have a girlfriend. I am really hopeful on this and would like to see it lead to marriage. But no way to know yet. I'm pretty good at following most of God's laws, but have to admit, I am simply no good on that no premarital sex part. I can say now I'll try to avoid it, but I know when together, I'll give in. Excommunicate me?

Bless...ArtS

Art... are any of us any good at the premarital sex thing? I wasnt a Christian before I married, so that wasnt even an issue for me. Anyway, there is a big difference between you struggling with that issue... and someone who says "yea, I know what the Bible says... but I'm gonna do it anyway, and I dont care!" Obviously you do care, and you're struggling. What Paul is talking about are people who know better, and do it anyway... and basically flaunt it in the face of God.

By the way... you've lost half your battle anyway. Your words betray you. You've already given up your struggle. Why? Dont do that, man. Sexual purity can be yours with the help of the Holy Spirit.

As far as your wife is concerned... if she left you for someone else, and shacked up with him, and didnt care what the Word of God said about it... and wanted to continue on with a church, then yes she should be put out. If the leadership confronted her and she refused to stop doing what she was doing... then Bible is clear on what should happen. Even if she remarried. Taking vows doesnt erase the sin. The Bible says that if someone divorces and remarries then they are committing adultry with their new spouse. Now... my personal belief is that if after they marry they see the light and repent of the sin and hurt they caused others, then they are forgiven. (This is speaking of people who are Christians who divorce and remarry) However, I do not believe they should leave their new spouse... God will wipe the slate clean right where they are, and they move on from there. The only thing they can not do is be in church leadership.

This would not apply to you because you divorced her because of her unfaithfulness, and according to scripture you are free to remarry. Also, if an unbeliever leaves a believer, then the believer is free to remarry as well.

There is hardly any church discipline today, and it's one of the reasons the church is in the sad shape it is in. It's pathetic.

Rom831

August 22nd, 2003, 09:40 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Obviously you do care, and you're struggling. What Paul is talking about are people who know better, and do it anyway... and basically flaunt it in the face of God.

I guess this comes down to us disagreeing on what being repentant is. Just because I care, know its wrong, and wish I was strong enough to obey, in my belife, doesn't make me repentant. Sure I feel convicted about it, but I'm not turning from it.

By the way... you've lost half your battle anyway. Your words betray you. You've already given up your struggle. Why? Dont do that, man. Sexual purity can be yours with the help of the Holy Spirit.

You mistake me knowing for me struggeling. I struggle with it not being right, but I'm not putting up much of a struggle to avoid it. When I wasn't dating her, I tried not to fall into casual sex, but now that I am with someone I care for and am hopeful for a future with, I have to admit I'm not fighting all that much. I just dont see how that makes me any different from the person you describe. The attitude may be different, but the action isnt.

Bless...ArtS

Jael

August 22nd, 2003, 09:52 AM

You mistake me knowing for me struggeling. I struggle with it not being right, but I'm not putting up much of a struggle to avoid it. When I wasn't dating her, I tried not to fall into casual sex, but now that I am with someone I care for and am hopeful for a future with, I have to admit I'm not fighting all that much. I just dont see how that makes me any different from the person you describe. The attitude may be different, but the action isnt.

Well, Art...when you put it that way, I have to tell you (with love and respect), that you probably would be subject to church discipline in the church where I fellowship...if the pastor talked to you and you stated that you were not going to strive to overcome this temptation and turn from this sin, but intended to continue practicing it, he would counsel you and work with you for awhile.

But if you remained unrepentant, he would disfellowship you (that's what we call it, because we recognize that we cannot put anyone out of the body of Christ, we can only separate someone from fellowship with our local body). People who are struggling with sin, and occasionally fall are not disfellowshipped in my church - but those who avow that they do not intend to turn from it are (whether they make this assertion explicitly or implicitly - such as by living together with a girlfriend/boyfriend)

It's a matter of the heart...we do not all achieve victory over sin instantaneously, but there's a difference between a heart that says "Lord I'm weak, but I want to obey you and I am asking you to help me stand" and a heart that says "Obedience is too hard and I'm just not going to do it." Hope I haven't offended you, I hate to talk about people's personal situations, because it's easy to hurt someone's feelings without meaning to. I am just trying to respond honestly to the question you asked.

KrispyKritter

August 22nd, 2003, 10:08 AM

Ahhh... well that puts a whole new twist on things. I love ya, Art, and sometimes telling someone the truth is hard, but I am beginning to see why you're putting up such a defense against this piece of scripture. It's hitting too close to home.

I agree with Jael, that you are what this scripture is talking about in that you're not that interested in putting up much of a fight even tho you know that fornication (lets call it what it is) is a sin. If you were attending one of the house fellowships in our network... and we were talking face to face about this... I would confront you with as much compassion as I can muster and advise you that you are putting your spiritual health at risk. I would offer to pray for you (which, by the way, I'm going to do). If you decide not to heed my words, but continue on... then all the elders would summon you. If you blew all of us off... then you woudl put out.

I dont mean to be harsh, Art... and I mean none of this in a harsh or judgemental way... I'm just responding to your posts in a way that I believe scripture tells me to.

cindyw

August 22nd, 2003, 10:09 AM

Krispy, sent you two PM's. Blessings, Cindy:):

Ynott

August 22nd, 2003, 10:37 AM

((((Art)))) My brother! I agree with Krispy and Jael. I understand where you are coming from.

You are right. The flesh is too weak to resist. But we, Christians, are not "in the flesh". We are "in Christ". Don't try to fight it all by yourself. Lean on God for His Strength.

The most obvious thing to do is to NOT put yourself into any possibly compromising positions. Meet in PUBLIC places only.

Jesus never said it would be easy. It isn't. We are to be "in the world" and yet "not OF the world". You have a million messages blasted at you daily about how "right" it is....How it isn't hurting anyone.

Okay, now I have to say this very clearly.

Art, as a believer, you KNOW that you ARE hurting someone. When Christ died on that cross FOR YOU, he took every sin you ever committed and every sin you ever WILL commit with Him to the grave.

To knowingly commit a sin (and use whatever excuse you want..."I'm weak"....."It just happened"...."I didnt plan it."....), it is the same thing as picking up that whip and laying it across Christ's back. Every thought, word and deed that constitutes a sin does that. You can repent and be forgiven, but Christ still BEARS YOUR SIN!

He was WOUNDED for our transgressions! He sacrificed His LIFE for our Sins!

So the next time that your "honey" looks totally irresistible, envision yourself picking up a whip and flaying Christ alive! Or pounding another nail into His Hands! Or just spitting on Him while He hangs on the cross FOR YOU!

When you KNOWINGLY sin and HABITUALLY put yourself into a position of continuing the sin, you betray the very MEANING of being a Believer.

Beyond that, you are also placing your "girlfriend's" sins upon Christ. For you KNOW what you are doing is wrong. You never said if she was a Christian or not, so she may not be "knowingly" sinning at this point....BUT YOU KNOW!

Additionally, others around you view your conduct and are affected by it, whether you believe that or not. So many eyes watch us every day. You would be surprised at your "witness" in this regard. Sometimes, the only Jesus that folks see is in us, the average Christian. You send a very poor message by such conduct....How many souls are lost ( you will never know) because of what you choose to do?

I will pray for you Art. I will pray for you to lean totally on Christ in this. It isn't easy. But I know that Christ can help you through this, brother.

KrispyKritter

August 22nd, 2003, 10:49 AM

Art... bro... I'm gonna say this, and I mean it from my heart... In this relationship you need to be the man, and if you really love or care about this woman, you will not allow yourself to put her in a position of sinning against the Lord and possibly causing damage to her spiritual health too.

Love does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil...

Love does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth...

Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

If this relationship has a future, then you need to begin now to be the spiritual leader. You're going to lead her in one way or the other... either it will be toward a closed union with the Lord, or away from the Lord. Fornication will not lead her closer to Him.

What kind of leader will you be, Art?

Ynott

August 22nd, 2003, 10:54 AM

Perhaps this will help with the repentant definition that you are coloring all shades of grey.

There is such a thing as a spontaneous sin. We are creatures of habit. I swore alot before I became a believer.....Under pressure, foul language still ushers forth. It is a sin for which I immediately ask forgiveness.

A stray thought enters my head of jealousy, retribution, anger, whatever....I thrust it out and ask forgiveness.

UNREPENTANT sin is HABITUAL sin. It is pre-meditated. It is planned. Placing yourself in compromising positions is the same thing as "planning" to sin. You fool noone....not even yourself with that one.

Even secular law covers this. We have Murder and Manslaughter as charges.

The Old Testament even has Cities of Refuge for people to run to when they have accidentally killed someone (to escape the sure and final punishment of familial retribution from the victim's family).

If you are seeing too much grey, then you need to step back and really give some serious thought to your lifestyle.

I am not judging you on this, Art. I am really trying to counsel you with the scripture.

I am not without sin, my brother. I fall far too short to judge you. We are all a "work in progress". I'm just trying to reach out and give you a helping hand from one who stumbles all too often on my own.

Give it to God, Art. He can carry ANY load.

Ynott

August 22nd, 2003, 10:57 AM

Amen! To what Krispy said as well. God has ordained that the Man shall be the spiritual authority within the family. If you do indeed have a future with this woman, then you need to begin now to assert the role of priest and spiritual leader within your relationship.

Excellent point, krispy. Well thought out and added.

KrispyKritter

August 22nd, 2003, 11:58 AM

Thanx... spiritual leadership in families is a real hot button for me these days.

John Tyson

August 22nd, 2003, 12:03 PM

Grace and peace to you all.

No doubt, a so-called brother who is living in open adultery should be removed from the fellowship of the church. The problem is, most churches choose to ignore it. I say again, most churches choose to ignore it! I see it happening in my church and it is a So. Baptist church, one of the more stricter denominations--in talk.

God bless,
John

cindyw

August 22nd, 2003, 12:26 PM

John,

I know that you are in the Divorce Recovery ministry. Do you go by the DivorceCare literature/teachings in your ministry?

I would like to share something which really grieved me and my husband when we viewed the material for this popular ministry. We viewed the tapes on divorce/remarriage/new relationships and this is what we found: nowhere were those who divorced EVER given scripture to go back to those marriages or stay single as scripture admonishes. I'm not talking about the divorces which are disputable (on so called biblical grounds of adultery), I'm talking about those divorces which were obtained for clearly non-biblical reasons.

This material/teachings then goes on to tell how to conduct oneself in future relationships/marriages and never discuss what Jesus said about those: that they who entered into these relationships would be entering into adultery. Many Churches are sanctioning sin IMHO by teaching and encouraging people to go against Jesus' teachings in the Gospels and through Paul's teachings on marriage/separation and remarriage. Instead of teaching reconciliation, many churches are encouraging sin and the continued breakdown of family by not adhering to the Word of God and lifting those up who are downtrodden and depressed..........very sad, but that's just MHO. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

Rom831

August 22nd, 2003, 12:35 PM

I appreciate all your counselings, but that was not my point. But I think what I was trying to get at is being made clear. We ALL sin. And there are sins we each commit over and over that if we are honest with ourselves, we feel bad about, yet are going to do again.

My example of greed, selfishness, putting ourselves first and not loving our brother as ourselves was rejected by many here because it hits too close to home. It was rationalized or ignored away. Why? Because some don't want to admit what I am saying.

Yet when I not only admit the same sins nearly every American has, but one that maybe you personally do not, the one sin you do not have gets me counselled and told that if I was with your church, I'd be removed from it. Yet you do not see your own sin and lack of repentance for it.

Jesus Himself said to be perfect (no sin = perfection), sell all your poosessions and give to the needy. Have you? Do you have any intention to obey Jesus in this? If you say "no", you are disobeying and not repenting. Which leads me right back to don't cast stones until you are He who is without sin.

Bless...ArtS

Ynott

August 22nd, 2003, 01:07 PM

But Art, I do not practice greed, selfishness or putting myself first. In fact, most Christians I know do not. Who are you associating with?

I know many of my sins and have admitted some of them here. I readily admit that there are sins that I probably do not even recognize in myself and I pray also for them to be brought to my attention that I might repent of them and be forgiven.

Am I perfect then? HEAVENS NO! Paul himself said that he was "chief among sinners"!

Do not misunderstand what we are saying here. Everyone sins. Not everybody sins in the same ways or with the same sins. Don't assume that we do.

Am I occasionally given to the sins you named? No doubt! But it would be a spontaneous sin in those cases. They are not my BIG trouble areas.

My big trouble area is the blame game and anger management. I know myself. Don't try to recreate all of us in your perceived image. There is enough sin to go around.

I don't TRY to commit those sins and actively DO TRY to avoid situations in which they might occur....including avoiding certain threads and forums here! :tape

And that is the point. Know your weak areas and do your best to avoid them, remedy them, repent of them, pray about them. God will help you if you sincerely ask Him.

It doesn't happen over night. But it happens.

Ynott

August 22nd, 2003, 01:22 PM

Perhaps I am not making the delineation clear?

Although I may "repeat" a sin (a lifetime is a long time, after all). It is the PREMEDITATION or DESIRE TO CONTINUE in a particular sin which is UNREPENTANT sin.

I have cursed on more than one occasion and no doubt will again. I do not plan to do it. It comes out before I can think about it under stress. I must admit that through the HS, I AM getting better and many of my coarser phrases have totally departed (thank you Lord!). My walk is therefore improving.

At NO POINT do I contemplate swearing again. I do not DESIRE to swear. If it comes into my mind, I push it out! I don't dwell upon it.

This is in direct opposition to someone who "lusts" after someone in their heart and "dwells" upon the idea (not pushing it out as sinful and repenting of it). Thoughts lead to action which are ALSO sinful. Thought often lead to words which are ALSO sinful.

Am I sinning? YES! Is it PREMEDITATED OR PLANNED? No, it is an accumulated bad habit from my previous life. I constantly remind myself that I am a new creation and strenuously try to avoid it and situations that might cause it.

Do you see the difference yet?

The desire TO AVOID SIN is what separates a believer from a "backslidden" believer.

KrispyKritter

August 22nd, 2003, 01:23 PM

Art... BLATANT IMMORALITY and BLATANT REBELLION is what the scripture is referring to. Are you really that blind? (no offense...)

Ynott

August 22nd, 2003, 01:30 PM

Paul also tells us it is "better to marry than to burn".....Perhaps you should seriously consider marriage with your girlfriend?

Is she a Christian? Do you wish marriage to be the end result of your relationship? If so, pursue her as your "future wife".

If you do NOT wish to marry her, then release her (and yourself).

If you are unsure, then meet her only in public places until you can truly make an informed decision, court her. Between the sheets is NOT a marriage MADE IN HEAVEN. Love is about respect. Respect for each other. Respect for God who gives us love and shows us what TRUE love is all about. It will color your future relationship forever and in fact will undermine the very authority that Krispy is speaking of. Do you want a love that will last forever? You must live it to have it. God has given us the way to go. With His help, you too can have this kind of love in your life.

Your body (and hers!) are temples of the Lord. Do not desecrate them in lust. Instead, cherish the God-given institution of marriage enough to wait. You won't be sorry!

KrispyKritter

August 22nd, 2003, 01:33 PM

Art, I believe an error your making is you are lumping all sin under the same heading. You simply can not do that. I agree with what Ynott has been saying 100%.

Some teach that all sin is the same in Gods eyes. That simply is an error. Sin is not all the same in Gods eyes. He calls homosexuality an "abomination". He doesnt call treating your neighbor like crap an "abomination". It's still a sin, but it's not a moral sin. And most folks I know who are believers do not throw up their hands and say "well... I cant fight it... I'm just gonna give in anyway and let my dog take a leak in the Smith's flower garden".

We should strive to eradicate sin from our lives at all levels. But you'll find that as we mature in the Lord He will always be revealing darkness in us until our last breath. But it's a matter of the heart attitude... and yes, it's a matter of morality.

There is a list of different types of people that teh Bible says will not inherit the Kingdom of God. There is a list of different types of people who should be put out of a fellowship if the refuse to repent. It's very specific.

John Tyson

August 22nd, 2003, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by cindyw
John,

I know that you are in the Divorce Recovery ministry. Do you go by the DivorceCare literature/teachings in your ministry?

I would like to share something which really grieved me and my husband when we viewed the material for this popular ministry. We viewed the tapes on divorce/remarriage/new relationships and this is what we found: nowhere were those who divorced EVER given scripture to go back to those marriages or stay single as scripture admonishes. I'm not talking about the divorces which are disputable (on so called biblical grounds of adultery), I'm talking about those divorces which were obtained for clearly non-biblical reasons.

This material/teachings then goes on to tell how to conduct oneself in future relationships/marriages and never discuss what Jesus said about those: that they who entered into these relationships would be entering into adultery. Many Churches are sanctioning sin IMHO by teaching and encouraging people to go against Jesus' teachings in the Gospels and through Paul's teachings on marriage/separation and remarriage. Instead of teaching reconciliation, many churches are encouraging sin and the continued breakdown of family by not adhering to the Word of God and lifting those up who are downtrodden and depressed..........very sad, but that's just MHO. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

Throughout the series reconciliation is emphasized. 12 Chapter "Reconciliation" and video stresses the importance of reestablishing the marriage. Also, in the two chapters dealing with the children of divorce, the statistics drives home the need of marriages staying together. I certainly counsel for it if at all possible. Cindy, bare in mind that we have relatively few people come to participate in DivorceCare that are members of my church. They generally become members, at least for awhile. It would probably surprise you how many pastors wives have come through our program. We have one male missionary in the program now. Please pray for all these folks, they are hurting so.

As far as never remarrying. I believe sometime ago you made it clear you take a narrower view than I do on whether a divorced person can remarry or should remain in a remarriage. It is not that I believe scripture any less than you do--we have a different understanding. For what it is worth and this is not to boost, I have taught adult bible studies for over 20 years and I have a passing knowledge of scripture.

Now that aside, I have known of people whom while still married were living with another person and were members of my church. On that, I believe we will both agree that that should not be.

God bless,
John

Rom831

August 22nd, 2003, 02:19 PM

At one point in the Bible, Adultry and murder are compared and called the same. At another adultry and favoritism are equalled. We are told if you break ANY law, you are a lawbreaker and guilty of breaking the EINTIRE Law. Murder, adultery or favoritism, you are still just as guilty, still just as much of a sinner. Not repenting from sin is being unrepentant, period.

And if you claim not to practice greed or selfishness, if you claim to always put others first and love your neighbor as yourself, how much of your paycheck was spent on things like car payments, movies, fast food, pop, enterrtainment, nice clothes, etc. How many pairs of shoes are in your closets? Videos in your collection? And please tell me you are responding on a work or library computer and you do not own one. Because there are people, right this very instant dying from hunger, lack of potable water, and not even the most basic of medicines (even a simple bandaid!).

Why are wasting your money on these luxaries for yourself and not sending all the money you can to save the very lives of your brothers and sisters? Why are you putting your wants in front of their NEEDS? You living in comparitave luxary while the "least of us" die for lack of the most basic necessities of life is loving them as you love yourself? Is putting them first? Is serving them? Is not selfishly treating yourself and keeping your blessings when they could be used to serve?

I'm sorry, if you do not see this then it it is not I who am blind. And unless you decide to repent and follow Jesus commands to do these things, then you are unrepentant of these things. And PLEASE do not think I am pointing fingers at you. I am just as guilty. I just admit it. I suppose that is just to make me no worse than you, huh? But of course, it also makes me no better than anyone else.

Bless...ArtS

KrispyKritter

August 22nd, 2003, 02:27 PM

Art.... now you're trying to justify. Obviously you're not receptive to anything I am saying (or anyone else for that matter) so I'm just not going to continue on with this discussion.

I'll pray for you, and I hope you'll pray for me too... for we are brothers. But I'm simply not going to waste my time on this.

Rom831

August 22nd, 2003, 02:28 PM

And as far as your differences in sins, what IS a sin? Is it a list of do's and don'ts in a book that we get to post values to? Why are some things sinful and not others?

The SIN is the rebellion against God. It is the breaking of His Laws. It is not the act itself. Eating fruit off a tree wasn't Adam and Eve's sin. Their sin was disobeying God. that is our sin as well. That is the point of the scriupture that puts favoritism and adultry on an even keel. Its not because of what we do, its the rebellion against God. Cussing is not a sin because of what comes out of our mouths, it is because of what is INSIDE us. God says "no" but we do it anyway. THAT is the sin. And that is the same sin no matter what actuall hapenstance it is that we do. It puts your adulterous friend, me and you all in the same boat.

No matter the sin, God only gives one and only one punishment for it - death.

Bless...ArtS

Rom831

August 22nd, 2003, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Art.... now you're trying to justify.

Huh? I'm not trying to justify anything. I am owning up to my sins. That doesn't make them any less sinful or more justifyable. How is Saying I am guilty, trying to justify anything?

Bless...ArtS

cindyw

August 22nd, 2003, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by John Tyson
Throughout the series reconciliation is emphasized. 12 Chapter "Reconciliation" and video stresses the importance of reestablishing the marriage. Also, in the two chapters dealing with the children of divorce, the statistics drives home the need of marriages staying together. I certainly counsel for it if at all possible.

Yes, John I know that reconciliation is mentioned. But in the section on other relationships which may lead to remarriage-----there was not 1 mention of sin in entering into these relationships if reconciliation with the 1st spouse did not happen. That's what I have a BIG, BIG problem with. By MOVING ON, many people are moving right into sin. Paul in I Cor. 7:1-11 addresses this........but if you do (separate), you are to remain single or be reconciled to your "spouse"------that is because the Lord still views that person as being married to their orginal spouse. This is a COMMAND, not a "if you feel like it". That is exactly what Jesus taught in Mt. 5 and 19----anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery----why? Because in God's eyes she is STILL MARRIED/JOINED to her first husband. That was not presented in the DivorceCare materials we read and watched and that omission is what greatly disturbs me concerning this 'moving on' encouragement.

Whether one believes the adultery is a one time sin or a continual sin-----either way it is a sin and should not be sanctioned in any way shape or form by the CHURCH---in the guise of comforting those who are hurting. It's especially troubling that many Pastors think nothing of violating scripture and causing their sheep to enter into this sin by marrying them.............This should not be so in the Church of God. JMHO. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

Ynott

August 22nd, 2003, 03:55 PM

I have to go along with Krispy on this one too, Art. It would appear that in order for you to justify your position, you have simply said that it is an "impossible situation" for any believer. We stand condemned and there is nothing we can do about it. So why try?

I will also continue to pray for you. I know that it will come in time. I place my faith in Christ as I know that you do. My time is not His time. Eventually, this will be made clear to you.

God bless and avoid temptation when you can.

Edited to add: I end it here to avoid dissension between the brethren. I believe that all sides have been aired and examined. If we have not reached a compatible concensus then perhaps more thought and prayer are needed. Certainly enough scripture has been provided.

May God yield to us the truth of the matter and humble our hearts to it.

Pointerman

August 22nd, 2003, 04:59 PM

Ynott and Krispy,
Your wisdom makes me proud to call you a brother in Christ. Thanks for shooting straight.

Art,
I'll be praying for you brother. When I first came to Christ I broke off a long time relationship because it was an unpure relationship. I never saw her or called her until years later we passed a couple of emails back and forth. She is a Christian now also. I thank God that he gave me the strength to do the right thing even though it was difficult at the time. In the long run we were both better off.

May God bless you with your struggles.

Angyl

August 22nd, 2003, 05:05 PM

My first post in this thread.

I have NOT read the original post.
and
I have NOT read anyone else's posts after that. (I'm just not in the mood).

I only popped in here to answer the question of the title of this thread, "Should a Christian be excommunicated from a church for adultery."

The answer depends entirely upon whether or not that person is repentant. No church should have members that openly and unrepentantly GLORIFY in their sin as it brings down the testimony of the church and all its members.

If a person committed adultery, repented, and (since this is an OPEN sin before the entire church body) made their repentance clear before the church, I would see no reason to kick them out.

We all make mistakes.

EVERY-DARN-DAY!

*Angyl is willing to bet that Krispy has said basically the same thing already*

frisian1970

August 22nd, 2003, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by Rom831
[QUOTE]Originally posted by KrispyKritter
I agree... unrepentant is the key word in all this.

See my long post on why I believe we are all unrepentant to some degree

Let me give you an example...

Ok, let me try two examples on you.

1) My wife left me for another man. I tried to get her to leave the affair - no. I tried to get her to come back - no. I tried to get her to counselling - no. Instead she divorced me. Should she be barred from our church? What if she stayed with him and married him? Barred? What if your guy married that woman? What if any divorcee gets remarried?

2) I have a girlfriend. I am really hopeful on this and would like to see it lead to marriage. But no way to know yet. I'm pretty good at following most of God's laws, but have to admit, I am simply no good on that no premarital sex part. I can say now I'll try to avoid it, but I know when together, I'll give in. Excommunicate me?

Bless...ArtS

I am stunned....premarital sex and you continue in this behavior ? As if you did what you wished you didn't ....??? Like Paul talks about ? Aren't we made as snow through Christ's blood ?

Frog

August 22nd, 2003, 08:34 PM

very visible member of church... had affair with a minor(14)... wants to leave wife/kids (2) for a teenager... unbelievable.

I don't dispute that he needs to be excommunicated... they are in process of revoking his membership...

what I disagreed with was the public nature in which they did this... calling a church meeting to discuss the situation... the man wanted nothing more to do with the church... he is giving up everything for a 14 year old... he's in his 30s...

I just don't see the need for an all church meeting to discuss this when he stated he no longer wanted anythingto do with the church... when I learned of "this meeting"... I honestly felt that feeling of "evil" being present... that this meeting was not a good thing. I could not stay for it... to me, it was just a public gossip session... I saw absolutely no need for "this meeting"... as far as I was concerned, they could have revoked the membership quietly. By making a big deal of it, in my opinion, it is his wife and 2 kids that suffer... not him.

too bad... the 14 year old will probably hit the road anyway... and then he'll realize - like so many - just what he has lost! - or he'll end up in jail for statutory rape... the kid was a foster child... What a horrible shame to see so many lives devastated like this.:cry :cry :cry

Frog

AlishaGail

August 22nd, 2003, 09:05 PM

Originally posted by Frog
very visible member of church... had affair with a minor(14)... wants to leave wife/kids (2) for a teenager... unbelievable.

I don't dispute that he needs to be excommunicated... they are in process of revoking his membership...

what I disagreed with was the public nature in which they did this... calling a church meeting to discuss the situation... the man wanted nothing more to do with the church... he is giving up everything for a 14 year old... he's in his 30s...

I just don't see the need for an all church meeting to discuss this when he stated he no longer wanted anythingto do with the church... when I learned of "this meeting"... I honestly felt that feeling of "evil" being present... that this meeting was not a good thing. I could not stay for it... to me, it was just a public gossip session... I saw absolutely no need for "this meeting"... as far as I was concerned, they could have revoked the membership quietly. By making a big deal of it, in my opinion, it is his wife and 2 kids that suffer... not him.

too bad... the 14 year old will probably hit the road anyway... and then he'll realize - like so many - just what he has lost! - or he'll end up in jail for statutory rape... the kid was a foster child... What a horrible shame to see so many lives devastated like this.:cry :cry :cry

Frog

What a horrible situation!!! I too agree that this man at least should be 'kicked out' of the church. He definitely sounds unrepentent and this isn't something that he can even try to rationalize away.

With the fact that he left of his own will, and the fact that he was being officially kicked out anyway, I don't see the need for a meeting either. Why subject his soon-to-be ex wife and children to such a public spectacle?

Lisha

SapphireGrl

August 22nd, 2003, 09:41 PM

I wasn't going to post in this thread again because I believe that Krispy, Jael, Ynott, et al, have done an outstanding job presenting scripture, wisdom, and most importantly Truth in this thread. But something keeps bothering me a great deal. I keep thinking about all of the people that are reading this thread and are reading Art's words and agreeing with him, and thus continuing in their sin as a result. That disturbs me.

So I want to point out something in 1 Corinthians 5 that I believe Art is missing when he says that no one has the authority to disfellowship with others because we are all sinners. First of all, he's missing the fact that there are specific sins that are being addressed in verse 11. Verse 11 is discussing the sexually immoral, the covetous, abusers, drunkards, idolaters, and swindlers. For some reason, a lot of people seem to ignore the fact that specific sins are addressed in this chapter, not all sins. This is an important distinction because of the effects and results that these sins breed within the church body. And so when people ignore this, we then end up with arguments where people try to say that since we all sin this passage must be invalid. That could not be further from the truth.

Also, it's been said before, but I want to re-emphasize this. There is a difference between Christians that are sinning and are repentant and Christians that sin and just don't care. There's a difference between Christians that try their hardest not to sin and those that give a half-hearted attempt or lip service to the Truth but keep on doing what they want to do anyway. Christ said go and sin no more, he didn't say keep on doing what you're doing, you'll be alright in the end. He didn't say we have the right to abuse the Grace that has been given to us.

If there's no repentance, that Christian is pure poison to his/her church body. Sin spreads. It's like a cancer that spreads throughout the entire body. What you are telling us to do, Art, is to allow the cancer to spread. You are telling us to ignore what God says about sin infecting the entire body in the name of not offending anyone because hey, we all sin. You are also contradicting God by stating that we don't have the right to judge those within the church, when 1 Corin 5:13 states that we are to judge those within the church.

What is also being missed by Art is WHY God instructs us to put the rebellious Christian out of the Church. 1 Cor 5:5-7 says,

5 Then you must cast this man out of the church and into Satan's hands, so that his sinful nature will be destroyed and he himself will be saved when the Lord returns.
6How terrible that you should boast about your spirituality, and yet you let this sort of thing go on. Don't you realize that if even one person is allowed to go on sinning, soon all will be affected? 7Remove this wicked person from among you so that you can stay pure.

We are to put the unrepentant sinner out of the Church for two reasons. First, so that the church body will remain pure. Secondly, so that the rebellious Christian can be turned over to satan and their soul saved. It is lonely when all of your Christian friends have cut you off because you're doing what you want to do instead of what God tells you to do. It is embarrassing when your church has put you out so that you don't infect the rest of the congregation with your rebellion. It is shameful when your fellow Christians can't even share a meal with you because of your unChristian behavior. So God tells us to turn you over to Satan so that you can be put through the wringer, and hopefully realize that living in rebellion to God leads to nothing but utter destruction.

A lot of people look at this situation emotionally and believe that it is cruel and unChristian to do this, even though they know that this is something that God instructs us to do. Having gone through this twice with a former friend of mine, I am here to tell you that it is one of the most loving things you can do for your brother or sister that is sinning unrepentantly and living in rebellion. God knows more than we do. God is wiser than we are. So whether or not we should do this is not up for debate. If we love God, we will obey him. If we love God, we will trust him and know that he knows what he's doing. We have to put our own feelings and opinions on the matter aside and simply be obedient to God. And if he instructs us to disfellowship with someone, then that's what we have to do.

Art, I have a question for you. Are you trying to turn from your sin at all or are you just enjoying it? Do you feel sorrow for your sin or have you reached that place where you just acknowledge that this is just something that you're going to do? Do you just have the head knowledge where you know you should feel bad because you know it's a sin, yet you don't? I see you said that you don't even struggle with not doing it, that you just struggle with the fact that it's a sin. So are you trying in any way to obey God and sin no more?

Jael

August 22nd, 2003, 09:46 PM

Wow, excellent post, Sapphire!

mrsppmrxky

August 23rd, 2003, 01:53 PM

Art,

Several things that you have posted have really caused me to do some thinking. I even woke up this morning at 4:30 and thought about your situation and prayed that your eyes would be opened to see what God has to say to you.

I am not sure how old you are or if you have children. I have seen many situations in my years and have seen the results of how sin is handled in the church.

Several churches that had problems dealing with sexual sins dealt with them in different ways. Each had different results.

1st church: I was 17 and the song director/chairman of the deacons had an affair with a choir member. The women of the church were the first to catch on to the affair. The men, including my father, rebuked us for coming to them and spreading rumors and repeating gossip. The teens knew what was going on, but nothing was confronted. One night my father happened to go by the chairman's office and saw them together. He then knew that it was true and he brought to the pastor. The deacon was confronted and his reply was that it was untrue, he had been there for years and he would see others leave before he did. Guess what, the majority in the congregation would not stand up against him or ask him to step down. It caused a church split. That church is still there, but it is a 'family church' and is stunted.

2nd church: The church that had broken away ended up with church leaders that came in to join with us that were power hungry. One deacon was taking a 13 yr old girl on bus visitation.... "he always chose her to go with him" Appearances were mentioned and it was denied as rumors. The scenerio was true, they were going off to have sex in the car. This deacon didn't like having his reputation questioned by another deacon, my fathe