Should a Christian be Ex-Communicated from a Church for Adultery [Archive]

Bondservant

August 18th, 2003, 11:00 AM

Agree totally with Pointermans post. Here's the proof text:

1 Corinthians 5

Expel the Immoral Brother!

1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[1] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
6Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast--as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.
9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."[2]

MarkD

August 18th, 2003, 11:03 AM

1 Cor 5:9-13

9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men;
10 not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
11 But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber--not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
13 God judges those outside. "Drive out the wicked person from among you."

Notice that Paul is NOT saying to judge outsiders, but to drive out the wicked person from among you (ie: a professing christian). The implication from this passage also would indicate that this person is continuing in their immorality. Paul is not talking about driving out someone who is repentant.

[Edit to add: Ah, Bondservant, ya beat me to it.]

Ynott

August 18th, 2003, 11:18 AM

The earlier posters are correct. We love the sinner, but hate the sin. Paul's letters to the Corinthians were all about this problem. They were rampant with sin and thought that they okay because they were "saved".

Romans speaks to us of this as well in that though we are saved by Grace, this is NOT a license to sin!

We are indeed to humbly acknowledge that no one is without sin and that we too are sinners, BUT we ARE to point out sin. This can be done without attributions directed negatively at the sinner. The act is sinful. In fact, so is the thought, but we have no ability to "hear" that (thank you Lord!). We are to bring the sin to light and confront our brother or sister with this and give them the opportunity to repent.

Church IS full of sinners....but it is NOT supposed to be full of UNREPENTANT sinners. And therein lies the difference.

If the sinful behavior is not acknowledged and changed then yes, the individual should be asked to leave the congregation.

This is not ex-communication (except to the Catholics). It can be a time of chastisement (self-induced) and self reflection for the individual. Time spent with God will strengthen the spirit to fight the flesh's weakness.

Nobody said it was easy. It would indeed be hypocritical to allow the sinner to remain, unrepentant and sinning openly. This would invite disaster within a church.

My brother was asked to leave his church for living in sin with his girlfriend. He was a deacon. He is extremely knowledgeable about God and a devoutly professed Christian. He is still living in sin with his girlfriend.

I have confronted him with this and he knows how I feel. It led to "words" which distanced us for more than a year. We talk now, but not about his living arrangement. I will not "judge" him. He is my brother. I love him. I hate what he is doing. I can't understand how he can hurt Jesus like this. But there you have it. Good men (and women) do sin. The flesh is weak.

Love the sinner....hate the sin.

CINDY S.

August 18th, 2003, 11:30 AM

If a sinner was excommunicated for a "sin" then we all
should be excommunicated.

However, when I was a teenager our pastor was having
an affair with a married member of the congregation
and he was excommunicated and since divorced his wife,
left his kids and she left her family and they are now
married to each other. As awful as that was, even they
deserve forgiveness if they ask for it.

Rom831

August 18th, 2003, 11:50 AM

Jesus said He did not come for the righetous but for the sinner. They are who needs Him. If a person does something sinful, they are exactly who NEEDS to be in church, not excommunicated from it.

I get the most out of church when I have strayed. It helps convict me of my sin and draw me to repentance. Un fortunately, this isn't always immediate. Sometimes God has to work on me before I will admit my wrong and seek forgivness. Should I be cast out during this time? No, it will only drive me further away.

What they need to look at is this sinner's future. Can they help them come to repentance? Or maybe they have repented. Also, the repentance has to be in the form of repentance but not in the form the church is comfortable with. This could also include the person leaving the spouce, divorcing and being with the person. No, this is NOT desired. But it is no less so than any other divorced person (of which I am one) in a relationship.

But again, what would casting this person out accomplish? Would it show them their error and draw them back to Christ or would it anger them and have them abandon God all thogether? Even if it creates discomfort for a time, the salvation of the individules is what is important and not the comfort level of the members. (The ex who had multiple affairs on me and chose divorce over reconcilliation, still goes to my church. In fact we are still in the same band together and I still cannot stand her. At the begining it created massive tension all around. And again when she got engaged and remarried. And at times, it still does. But just because it is uncomfortable is not a reason to cast one of us out.)

God does not desire that any, including this person, be lost. So we should do all that is possible to help this person and not simply shun them. Only the one who is without sin should be the one to cast the stone.

Bless...ArtS

KrispyKritter

August 18th, 2003, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by RJs here
hmm..... I don't suppose that repentance would include living with another person?? ~ after just having left a spouse.....

WHAT EXACTLY would be considered "repentance" in this case??

..... just curious.

Repentence would be turning from their sin. Living w/their new honey would not be repentence. If they committed adultry then the other spouse may not necessarily take them back, and they may be faced with divorce... which would be ok according to scripture for the offended spouse. As for the spouse that committed the adultry... I personally believe that if they are truly repentent, then no, they should not remarry someone different. This would not apply to someone who cheated... their spouse divorces them, and then they get saved. I believe anything that happens pre-salvation is erased and the slate is wiped clean... then offender is free to remarry. Some may take issue with that... I'm just offering my opinion on what the scriptures teach.

But if someone cheats and the marriage splits and the offender is living with some new honey... and they dont turn from their sin... and think they can just conitnue on as a part of that church... the church has a responsibility scripturally to have nothing to do with them. Thats scripture, and it can not be ignored or waxed over simply because we feel they need to be in church. Supposedly they are already are Christians, and as such know the truth...

Proof of them knowing the truth is an example I gave of a situation like this in another post called "disheartened" ... a good Christian friend of mine got caught cheating. His wife kicked him out and filed for divorce. He's living with his new honey... and he is avoiding me like the plague. Why? Cuz he knows the truth...

coffeehubby

August 18th, 2003, 12:07 PM

In practice most churches do not excommunicate those people who openly rebel. The scriptures teach we are to do that sometimes, because their rebellion would affect the whole church...including the power of the churches testimony. Jesus taught that Himself, to take a matter privately between you and your offending brother first, then if he doesn't listen to you take a member of the church to listen to you and him him, and then bring the matter to the church if that fails. If he still won't listen, he is to be treated as a "tax collector."

Should they repent ( changed lifestyle) they should be welcomed back with open arms.

Ynott

August 18th, 2003, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by Rom831
Jesus said He did not come for the righetous but for the sinner. They are who needs Him. If a person does something sinful, they are exactly who NEEDS to be in church, not excommunicated from it.

I get the most out of church when I have strayed. It helps convict me of my sin and draw me to repentance. Un fortunately, this isn't always immediate. Sometimes God has to work on me before I will admit my wrong and seek forgivness. Should I be cast out during this time? No, it will only drive me further away.

What they need to look at is this sinner's future. Can they help them come to repentance? Or maybe they have repented. Also, the repentance has to be in the form of repentance but not in the form the church is comfortable with. This could also include the person leaving the spouce, divorcing and being with the person. No, this is NOT desired. But it is no less so than any other divorced person (of which I am one) in a relationship.

But again, what would casting this person out accomplish? Would it show them their error and draw them back to Christ or would it anger them and have them abandon God all thogether? Even if it creates discomfort for a time, the salvation of the individules is what is important and not the comfort level of the members. (The ex who had multiple affairs on me and chose divorce over reconcilliation, still goes to my church. In fact we are still in the same band together and I still cannot stand her. At the begining it created massive tension all around. And again when she got engaged and remarried. And at times, it still does. But just because it is uncomfortable is not a reason to cast one of us out.)

God does not desire that any, including this person, be lost. So we should do all that is possible to help this person and not simply shun them. Only the one who is without sin should be the one to cast the stone.

Bless...ArtS

Sorry Art, but that is your "feeling" on the subject and YOUR opinion. God (through scripture) has been very clear on how we are to deal with a wayward believer.

Sounds really good, but destroys the church. What is the point of becoming a believer and then using it as a license to sin?

These thoughts make a mockery of the faith. You are not "helping" a sinner by allowing him to continue in his sin and ignoring it. And chastising him from the pulpit each week won't exactly benefit him or the church either. That is why the offender is taken aside and counselled by two or more members of the brethren. He has ample opportunity to reflect upon his sinful nature.

To continue in HABITUAL sin in full view of the church is not scriptural.

Pray for those who go astray. Do not forsake them. You can talk to them, counsel them outside of church, but they have wandered far from our Lord when they actively and willfully continue in their sin. Unrepentant sin is NOT condoned by Christ.

Recall his words, "go and sin no more". He did not condemn her. Neither should we condemn our brethren.

It is as simple as this:

1. Bring it to their attention and counsel them.

2. Allow time for counseling and repentance.

3. No repentance? They must leave the fellowship of believers for indeed in their hearts, they already have.

They are welcome to rejoin upon repentance. I know of no church who would "hold it over their heads" if they were to repent.

GAB

August 18th, 2003, 12:29 PM

Back when I was an Episcopalian and the Episcopalians hadn't gone totally apostate, the rule was that a person whose private life invited scandal could attend Church, but not take communion. This way the person can hear the living Word of God, and be led to repentance, but the cost of living a sinful life was brought to them.

By all means, let the person in sin come to church! However, he or she should not be in an office of authority. (Titus).

KrispyKritter

August 18th, 2003, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by Ynott
They are welcome to rejoin upon repentance. I know of no church who would "hold it over their heads" if they were to repent.

And I know of no institutional churches that practice Biblical church discipline. Not saying their arent any... I just dont know of any.

In our house church we have done it... same kind of situation. He wouldnt repent, and I had to send him packing. Basically told him he wasnt welcome in my home around my children, and he wasnt welcome to be a part of our fellowship until he changed his ways. He too avoids me like the plague and slanders me. Oh well... Jesus was slandered too for standing up for the Word.

KrispyKritter

August 18th, 2003, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by GAB
By all means, let the person in sin come to church! However, he or she should not be in an office of authority. (Titus).

Wrong wrong wrong wrong.... scripture is the final authority, and scripture demands that the unrepentant one be sent out from among the fellowship. It's right there in black and white.

Let the unsaved sinner come in... yes. But a believer who turns to sin and refuses to repent is to be sent out. There is no argument here... either you believe scripture or you dont.

Ynott

August 18th, 2003, 12:57 PM

You are absolutely correct, Krispy.

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. (Proverbs 3:5)

For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. (1 Cor 6:20)

"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.” (Matthew 7:13-14)

Search Romans 6:15 and throughout the bible for affirmation.

Others can post the "instructions" on how to approach the brethren in such matters. To ignore the word of God in favor of "feel good" protestations does not serve God's will or the sinner's plight.

To ignore or accept the sin is to condone it. You too then will become "an accessory after the fact" if you will.

In Jeremiah, we read where the prophets spoke falsely and the people believed them. God punished both the "false prophets" and those who "believed" them.

Be very careful and be very berean.

antsinmypants

August 18th, 2003, 01:19 PM

Galatians 5
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

2 Peter 2
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

1 Corinthians 5:1 - It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is living with his father's wife.

1 Corinthians 5:9 - I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men...

Ynott

August 18th, 2003, 01:23 PM

And know this, people aren't saved by churches. God alone saves and He doesn't need the church to "get somebody's attention". The Holy Spirit is resident in each believer and is a far better witnessing tool than polite ignorance from an all too knowing congregation.

Also know that the Lord moves according to HIS plan and not ours. Too often, we feel that WE are the answer or the church is the answer when in truth, God alone is the ONLY answer!

Believers have the Holy Spirit and their Bibles. They have two witnesses to confront them (if they are lucky enough to have been a part of a bible believing church!). In time and through God's will, that will be enough....if the person is truly saved.

We cannot know another's heart, but the Lord does. We have instructions on the matter and we shouldn't question them.

By all means pray for lost souls. Many have backslidden. But be salt and light! We witness...Jesus saves!

It is purely prideful to believe that a sinner needs the church. The sinner needs Jesus! And Jesus is not confined to a building.

Jael

August 18th, 2003, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
And I know of no institutional churches that practice Biblical church discipline. Not saying their arent any... I just dont know of any.[/B]

Mine does...it's very painful all around. At times like that you really understand that we are a body. It's like losing a part of yourself. Also our pastor really emphasizes that the person is still our brother/sister and will absolutely be welcome back when they have repented and turned back to God. Because it's known that we do practice church discipline, most people who are really determined to embrace a lifestyle of sin just leave...

Ynott

August 18th, 2003, 01:36 PM

And that is also another excellent point. Everybody gets hurt! The assumption here is that the sinner is alone in a vacuum and is only hurting himself. Not so! He is actively and I might add "maliciously (with complete foreknowledge)" hurting the body (the church of believers if you will).

In fact, this sinner whom many would choose to ignore to "expose them" to the wonderful teachings of the church, is also exposing the church to willful (and tacitly condoned if not openly condoned) sin! That's a GREAT message to send to the brethren...the new believers will surely feel free to act upon this revelation...as will the very young and impetuous teenage believers.

It cuts both ways. It is awful to lose a member in this fashion. But is tantamount to tragedy to fail in doing God's will in the matter. He is far wiser than we are, knowing the end from the beginning.

antsinmypants

August 18th, 2003, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by GAB
By all means, let the person in sin come to church! However, he or she should not be in an office of authority. (Titus).

To quote Krispy "Wrong, wrong, wrong wrong WRONG!"

The letter to Titus from Paul says:

Titus 1
7An elder[2] must live a blameless life because he is God's minister. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered; he must not be a heavy drinker, violent, or greedy for money. 8He must enjoy having guests in his home and must love all that is good. He must live wisely and be fair. He must live a devout and disciplined life. 9He must have a strong and steadfast belief in the trustworthy message he was taught; then he will be able to encourage others with right teaching and show those who oppose it where they are wrong.
10For there are many who rebel against right teaching; they engage in useless talk and deceive people. This is especially true of those who insist on circumcision for salvation. 11They must be silenced. By their wrong teaching, they have already turned whole families away from the truth. Such teachers only want your money. 12One of their own men, a prophet from Crete, has said about them, "The people of Crete are all liars; they are cruel animals and lazy gluttons." 13This is true. So rebuke them as sternly as necessary to make them strong in the faith.

Titus 2
11For the grace of God has been revealed, bringing salvation to all people. 12And we are instructed to turn from godless living and sinful pleasures. We should live in this evil world with self-control, right conduct, and devotion to God, 13while we look forward to that wonderful event when the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be revealed. 14He gave his life to free us from every kind of sin, to cleanse us, and to make us his very own people, totally committed to doing what is right. 15You must teach these things and encourage your people to do them, correcting them when necessary. You have the authority to do this, so don't let anyone ignore you or disregard what you say.

Titus 3
10If anyone is causing divisions among you, give a first and second warning. After that, have nothing more to do with that person. 11For people like that have turned away from the truth. They are sinning, and they condemn themselves.

cameron222

August 18th, 2003, 01:53 PM

If the preacher is bold he will preach against adultery and fornication and such and hopefully convict the church member of their sin and lead them to repentance.

Repentance means to turn away from the sin and give it up......if someone does not give it up, they may need to be talked to, or else the church could become complacent and condoning of sin.

But then again, if all sinners were kicked out of the church, the building would soon become empty. I once knew a lady in our church who was known to be sleeping with her boyfriend and whenever I looked at her, that was the first thought that came to mind.......sexual sins can devestate the church.

antsinmypants

August 18th, 2003, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by Ynott
And that is also another excellent point. Everybody gets hurt! The assumption here is that the sinner is alone in a vacuum and is only hurting himself. Not so! He is actively and I might add "maliciously (with complete foreknowledge)" hurting the body (the church of believers if you will).

In fact, this sinner whom many would choose to ignore to "expose them" to the wonderful teachings of the church, is also exposing the church to willful (and tacitly condoned if not openly condoned) sin! That's a GREAT message to send to the brethren...the new believers will surely feel free to act upon this revelation...as will the very young and impetuous teenage believers.

It cuts both ways.

You are so so so right.

While I was working in the photo lab at walmart, I had a girl that worked at another store come to our lab and work with us -- was a fellow believer and asked me the "oddest question" I had heard in my 21 years.

She said that she was trying to have a baby and was encountering problems, had even done everything possible except fertility treatments (Felt that these were wrong, and "playing G-d"..) and that she had gone before her church and they had laid hands on her.

I asked her about her husband, and etc and if she thought maybe this was one of those things that G-d just says "wait" on.

Then she says that she and her boyfriend Were living together etc; and then I realised what was going on.

I told her to think about this long and hard- and that because they both were professing to be believers etc, and within the week I had been talking with her about the bible and what it says about marriage and children, and she came to the conclusion on her own that this was what her problem was-- putting the cart in front of her horse.

I haven't seen her since, and from what I can remember, she and her boyfriend changed their style of living until they could get married.... and we didn't even attend the same church!

:wave

KrispyKritter

August 18th, 2003, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by cameron222
If the preacher is bold he will preach against adultery and fornication and such and hopefully convict the church member of their sin and lead them to repentance.

Repentance means to turn away from the sin and give it up......if someone does not give it up, they may need to be talked to, or else the church could become complacent and condoning of sin.

But then again, if all sinners were kicked out of the church, the building would soon become empty. I once knew a lady in our church who was known to be sleeping with her boyfriend and whenever I looked at her, that was the first thought that came to mind.......sexual sins can devestate the church.

We're all sinners... the difference here is if someone is in sin (sexual sin in this case) and it's pointed out to them either thru the Holy Spirit or another believer... and they just ignore it and continue on... then they are to be expelled. I sin, you sin... we all sin. The difference is that when someone points it out to me, and I see it for what it is... hopefully I will repent of it.

Wileyzmuse

August 18th, 2003, 02:13 PM

"expel the <sexually> immoral brother from among you."

I believe that when an unrepentent person is living in their sin and refuses to repent (turn from the sin and do what is right) then we are not to associate with them. If that means to suspend their church membership, then yes. It may mean just not allowing that person to serve in a leadership role...but the Bible does say to expel them from among you....

God came to save the sinner, but we are talking here only about Christians who commit adultery (there are many.) I believe that verse is in order to protect other Christians who are weak in their faith from falling as well.

:sigh

cindyw

August 18th, 2003, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by Pointerman
The key to Jesus' statment was the "go an sin NO MORE" part of the statement. If she went off and continued to sin Jesus certainly would have passed judgement on her. Jesus judged people all of the time.

The church is called to deal with sin in it's members lives. This is why we have Elders. They are called to protect the spiritual integrity of the church of Jesus Christ. If a member REFUSES to repent then should the church stand behind them, pat them on the back and say "It's OK, we all sin. Enjoy your adulterous afair and enjoy your bread and wine with us." I would not want to attend a church that behaved in such a manner. The church is certainly to be full of grace, but it should attack sin where ever it appears within it's ranks. Sorry, but if the guy refuses to end the affair then the church has no recourse but to treat him like an unbeliever.

:thumb

mrsppmrxky

August 18th, 2003, 02:56 PM

The church has to be so careful in how they handle a situation like this. Like a previous poster stated, the church discipline hurts the ENTIRE church to the very core. It is like having a death in your immediate family. It is not something that is done lightly or without much prayer cover.

The onlookers in the church, the teens and small children, will either see that sin has a price to paid or that it is okay and just wink at sin.

Because churches have fallen down in this area, that is why we have to deal with the apostasy in the church now. We say we don't condone sin, but then we wink or even make jokes about what is going on.

I believe this falls under the church that has left it's first love and has become lukewarm.

We all need to remember that God has a standard and it doesn't matter if "I" agree with it or not.

Pointerman

August 18th, 2003, 02:58 PM

I must say that this thread has brightened my spirits. So often we subvert the word of God with how we "feel" we should handle issues based on our own logic. To see so many replies that are spot on with God's word brings joy to my heart even though the topic is not one of joy. God's word must always come first. Our logic must always take the back seat.

Pointerman

August 18th, 2003, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by cameron222
If the preacher is bold he will preach against adultery and fornication and such and hopefully convict the church member of their sin and lead them to repentance.

Nah, is the pastor was bold he would confront the person face to face as the Bible tells us to do. Preaching from the pulpit to the entire congregation about an issue that one person needs disciplining on is the chicken way out. :tsk

antsinmypants

August 18th, 2003, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by Wileyzmuse
"expel the <sexually> immoral brother from among you."

It may mean just not allowing that person to serve in a leadership role...but the Bible does say to expel them from among you....

God came to save the sinner, but we are talking here only about Christians who commit adultery (there are many.) I believe that verse is in order to protect other Christians who are weak in their faith from falling as well.

:sigh

I'm sorry Patricia, but it does say to expel:

It says in the NLT:

1 Corinthians 5
9When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin. 10But I wasn't talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or who are greedy or are swindlers or idol worshipers. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that. 11What I meant was that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a Christian yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Don't even eat with such people.
12It isn't my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your job to judge those inside the church who are sinning in these ways. 13God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, "You must remove the evil person from among you."

and in the KJV:

9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Verse 13 :

Therefore [2532] kai
put away [1808] exairo
from [1537] ek
among yourselves [5216] humon
that [846] autos
wicked person. [4190] poneros

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1061236739-3146.html#13

Put away:
from 1537 and 142
Part of Speech
v
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to lift up or take away out of a place

2) to remove

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 2
AV - take away 1, put away 1; 2

I think this shows it literally means removal, much as what the Mennonites, Amish and Quakers do, and as the Jewish Synogogues of old did.

antsinmypants

August 18th, 2003, 03:06 PM

Jael

August 18th, 2003, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by Pointerman
Nah, is the pastor was bold he would confront the person face to face as the Bible tells us to do. Preaching from the pulpit to the entire congregation about an issue that one person needs disciplining on is the chicken way out.

Originally posted by antsinmypants
I totally disagree. Preaching the Bible about EVERYTHING - including this, will teach children, teens and new believers (as well as refreshing the memory of older believers) will help out in the long run.

There were two churches if not three that I have attended in the past 15 years that has had this problem, and after the problem was being rectified, the preacher was preaching on this subject matter without mentioning people's names.

and i give him a total :thumb

I think I understand what Pointerman means...not that the pastor should NOT preach on such topics to the congregation at large, but that general preaching is no substitute for going to that person directly, as the Bible says. Sometimes people preach a general sermon because they are reluctant to deal with the person face-to-face, and that is sort of chickening out. It is awkward and uncomfortable to confront someone about sin, but church leaders are called to do just that. But there's nothing wrong with preaching it from the pulpit in addition to dealing with the person directly. :):

GAB

August 18th, 2003, 04:42 PM

I would think that denying someone communion in a liturgical church IS putting them out of the community.

antsinmypants

August 18th, 2003, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by Jael
I think I understand what Pointerman means...not that the pastor should NOT preach on such topics to the congregation at large, but that general preaching is no substitute for going to that person directly, as the Bible says. Sometimes people preach a general sermon because they are reluctant to deal with the person face-to-face, and that is sort of chickening out. It is awkward and uncomfortable to confront someone about sin, but church leaders are called to do just that. But there's nothing wrong with preaching it from the pulpit in addition to dealing with the person directly. :):

I can agree with that

Pointerman

August 18th, 2003, 05:20 PM

Thanks Jael. You clarified my point perfectly. I appreciate your assistance. What you typed is EXACTLY what I meant.

SapphireGrl

August 18th, 2003, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by antsinmypants
I'm sorry Patricia, but it does say to expel:

It says in the NLT:

1 Corinthians 5
9When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin. 10But I wasn't talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or who are greedy or are swindlers or idol worshipers. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that. 11What I meant was that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a Christian yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Don't even eat with such people.
12It isn't my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your job to judge those inside the church who are sinning in these ways. 13God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, "You must remove the evil person from among you."
I specifically wanted to highlight the sentence about not even eating with such a person because that is how serious God takes this. He is saying don't even be around this person! Don't eat with them, don't fellowship with them, period.

So, I don't see how disfellowshipping with an unrepentant Christian, the way that 1 Corinthians 5 orders us to, can be accomplished without physically putting them out of the church.

antsinmypants

August 19th, 2003, 04:23 PM

:nod

Wileyzmuse

August 19th, 2003, 05:17 PM

You guys are great!! Thanks for keeping it real! I'd forgotten about the "with such a person do not even eat." Strong words. Hard to water them down without throwing out the whole text.

Rom831

August 21st, 2003, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by Ynott
Sorry Art, but that is your "feeling" on the subject and YOUR opinion. God (through scripture) has been very clear on how we are to deal with a wayward believer.

Sounds really good, but destroys the church. What is the point of becoming a believer and then using it as a license to sin?

No one said it is a license to sin. But this is not my "feeling". What I said I backed up with Biblical verses. Before you start casting out sinners, I suggest you take a close look again at who we all are and who Jesus and the disciples went to. Who are we to cast anyone out or forbid anyone from hearing the Word of God? Are you really claiming the right to deny this to a person? What does God's word say about hindering someone from coming to the Lord?

Do you have a car? A computer? A nice house? Do you go on vacations? to movies? The mall for things you don't really need? How many nights is there food not wasted on your table? All this and do you not know that you have brothers and sisters throughout the world who do not have food? Who right now only have moments to live for lack of a scrap of food to eat? Do you not know that there are millions of your brothers and sisters right now nearing death because they have no clean water to drink or medicines to save them? Do you not know that there are millions of lost, ready to be lead to salvation if only they had someone who would teach them?

The Bible is very clear these are your responsibilities. These are things you are told to take care of. Yet do you have and do those luxaries? Oops, looks like you are a sinner. Repent and do as Jesus said to be perfect, sell all your wealth and give to those who are in need. Stop being greedy and pampering yourself while others suffer. Can't bring yourself to do it? Honestly, neither can I. Looks like we should both be excommunicated. Either that or we should be in the church, listening to God and being convicetd of our greed and other sins so that our hearts may be changed into being either a cheerful giver (as again scripture tells us) or a more cheerful giver.

I'm not chastising you any more than I am myself. But to be dictator over who can have God's Word is not part of our Great Commission.

Bless...ArtS

KrispyKritter

August 21st, 2003, 08:52 AM

Art... there is a big difference between buying a new car... and being unrepentant about sexual immorality. And you know it. You're argument doesnt hold water. Scripture is clear about this whole topic... I'm sorry that you cant see it.

Jael

August 21st, 2003, 09:47 AM

Art, we should never substitute our own fallible human reasoning for God's explicit directives given to us in the scriptures...

1Cr 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

This is how the Lord tells the church to handle open sin within the body...He would not have included this directive in scripture if He had not intended us to follow it.

mrsppmrxky

August 21st, 2003, 11:08 AM

This may seem very harsh to us. I admit that it hurts EVERYONE in the church when this takes place, but I am reminded of the Scripture that states,

"God's ways are not our ways."

He is a Holy God that doesn't have to explain Himself to us mortals. He chooses to do as He wishes. Our obligation and reasonable service it to obey Him.

If a person is going to go about this in a superior manner thinking that they are better person than the person put out of the church, then they are guilty of far worse and while this sin maybe hidden, you can rest assured that God sees all and will deal with it in His way.

KrispyKritter

August 21st, 2003, 11:46 AM

Where my buddy Art is getting confused is this passage of scripture pertains to specific sins... all of them immoral. Throwing food away at night when there are hungry people hardly compares to someone who is living in out and out rebellion against the Word of God... and is therefore flaunting it in His face because they refuse to repent. We all sin... and if we are following the Lord, when He points out our sin we will want to repent. That is the difference. For the life of me I cant understand why someone who is living an immoral lifestyle and isnt interested in repenting would even want to be a part of a church...

Ynott

August 21st, 2003, 11:57 AM

I have found as I study the bible more and more thoroughly that what I thought I knew was in error.

It either all hangs together as a congruent and coherent whole as TRUTH or it fails.

What some people do is take a passage or two out of context and ascribe their own interpretations to it, extending it way beyond its applicable and contextual boundaries.

There are EXPLICIT verses dealing with this very subject. You either believe them or not. The bible is VERY CLEAR ON THIS ISSUE.

Scripture has been provided and I ask you Art to explain your position based upon the scripture which is DIRECTLY applicable to this situation.

When a BELIEVER sins within the congregation. .... Please explain how you can take your position and ignore what the good book actually says.

Rom831

August 21st, 2003, 12:38 PM

I used scripture. YOU deemed in nonrelavant. But that doesnt make it so.

If you still want to judge and cast someone out, I can't stop you. You ask why keep someone who is an adulterer? What IS adultry? It is a sin. The Bible says if you are guilty of breaking ANY law, you are guilty of breaking ALL the Law. An unrepentant sinner is an unrepentant sinner reguardless of the sin.

The situation I described IS valid. It is describing greed and greed is one of "the seven deadly sins". You may want to sugar coat it and make it not sound so bad, but that changes nothing. One single payment on that new car Krispy tried to shrug off can feed a starving family for literally months. Yet where to we spend that money? That is greed and selfishness. We are not putting our brother first nor are we loving them as we love ourselves.

Don't like that example? I can find others. But the point is we all sin and there are some that we do over and over. And your reply to what I posted is exactly why we need to not simply cast out a fellow sinner. Until you are without sin, don't cast stones.

Now, is that person destroying the church? Is that person causing a drift from Christ? Are they leading others astray? Then as scripture says, they need to be rebuked. But if they are sinning and making excuses, denying it as a problem or whatever, and continue to sin, they are doing nothing more than those here who are denying what I describe is greed and selfishness and therefore a sin they need to repent from. They then need guidance and rebuking and teaching. Not to be judged and forbidden from receiving the Word.

All you are doing is running around the pews on a witch hunt for those you can point to as "worse sinners" than you so you can feel better about your sin. You (and I) are no better, no less sinners, and need Jesus no less than they.

Again, who are you to forbid them from hearing God's word?

Bless...ArtS

Ynott

August 21st, 2003, 12:57 PM

Art, Art, Art....so you think "in a church" is the only place that they can "hear the word of God"? I have news for you, I wasn't "saved" in a church...or BY a church for that matter....so, that argument is ridiculous.

The church doesn't save. I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Again, address the passages which speak SPECIFICALLY TO AN UNREPENTANT SINNING BELIEVER WITHIN THE CONGREGATION. You are talking "around the issue" and redefining "sin". That is incorrect.

If your interpretation is "correct" then the explicit passages are WRONG. So, what you are saying IN EFFECT, is that the bible is FULL OF ERRORS.

Is this not true?

Both interpretations cannot be correct.

All must be true or the bible errs.

It makes more sense to believe that in fact, you have erred in your interpretation. Can you not see that?

Rom831

August 21st, 2003, 01:00 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ynott
When a BELIEVER sins within the congregation. .... Please explain how you can take your position and ignore what the good book actually says.

Because we ALL sin. Which sinners get to stay?

I lived an immoral lifestyle for a while. I didn't see it as sinful because I rationalized it away. But through continued hearing of God's Word, I was convicted to the point of finally giving in and repenting.

Now by your stance, I should have been cast out and forbidden in. And having been judged and excommunicated, I would have been pissed and never gone back. I would have continued to worship the god of my own creation and snubbed those "Christian-types) who snubbed me. If my church had found out and followed you, I'd most likely be one of lost. Fortunately for me I wasn't and was eventually convicted of my sins into repentance.

Now, had I been recruting, had I been trying to convince others into my false belifes, had I been parading it around, very much yes I should be asked to leave or stop. But agian, I was a sinner then, I am a sinner now and I still have the sins I have problems letting go of. I am just thankful my church is also full of sinners who want me to grow in my faith and not full of ones on a hunt to cast out sinners "worse" than they.

Bless...ArtS

Ynott

August 21st, 2003, 01:05 PM

I want to seriously address the central issue here and that is piecemeal "feel good" interpretation.

What we are disagreeing about here isn't even relevant so much as the manner in which we are disagreeing.

Let us begin again with this premise or your refutation of same.

The bible is inerrant in its original language.

Is this a truism or not?

If it is true, then the ENTIRE bible must be read for all of its relevant applications and not a "pick me pick me" piecemeal approach which is all too common today.

I think your heart is very much in the right place, Art. I do. But I do not think you have thoroughly read and digested ALL of the applicable passages here. In fact, you have a very real blind spot with regard to judgment of any kind it would seem.

Please take some time to review these posts with applicable passages from scripture and do a thorough study of your own. Do not "write them off" because they "don't feel right" to you..and you've already made up your mind..I urge you to do this as a fellow believer.

It is a very difficult thing to do....to constantly review what you believe in light of what the scripture actually says. I still do this.

Be berean, not dogmatic.

Ynott

August 21st, 2003, 01:08 PM

Art, read this very carefully, for you seem to have skipped it time and time again in every single post.

The church is full of sinners.

The church is NOT supposed to be full of UNREPENTANT sinners.

That is the difference.

That is what Paul speaks of.

Get the difference yet?

KrispyKritter

August 21st, 2003, 01:40 PM

I agree... unrepentant is the key word in all this. Everyone agrees that we all sin. But that does not make us unrepentant. Paul is referring to people who sin against God in an immoral way that goes directly against the Word of God... and they dont care. They say "Hey... I know what the Bible says, but I love this woman, and we're gonna have our affair... and it doesnt matter because God loves me anyway... blah blah..." Thats what we're discussing here.

Art... I'm a little surprised that you're not understanding this. We've discoursed before, and you're pretty solid. I dont understand what is so hard to understand about this.

Let me give you an example that we had pop up in our house church network. A "friend's" wife had passed away. THey have children. He has a married lady friend who was friends with his wife before she died. After her death the widower and this married lady begin to be seen around town together... a lot. I asked him about it, and he said "oh... she's just helping w/the kids." Next thing I know I hear that she has left her husband, and that he is "giving her a place to stay". So I confirm this. I again approached him and informed him that he had no business having her in the house... even if she was sleeping on the couch. If nothing else, this wasnt a good example to be setting for the kids. "Oh, it's nothing... nothing is going on". I thought "yea... right". Well... then she gets a divorce. Then they get engaged. Then they decided after they got engaged that they would like to begin attending one of our house churches. I went to him and said "Look man... I cant let you attend one of these fellowships. She left her husband for you, which is adultry. And now you're both living together, which is fornication." He said to me "Krispy... (actually he used my real name!) God has sent this woman to me." And I said "Man, you about the most decieved person I have ever met if you really think that." We went around and around and he tried to convince me that there was nothing wrong with the situation. This is someone who claims to have been saved years ago. This is no recent "convert". I finally said "Look... you're not welcome in our fellowships until you repent of this and get things right with God. I cant allow this into the fellowships. And you're not welcome in my house anymore around my kids. I'll not have this influence on my family."

He told me to go to hell.

They have now married and are attending a "feel good" mega-church.

That is the unrepentant sinner that we are discussing here.

jegs2

August 21st, 2003, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by billiefan2000
I wanna hear your thoughts on this.

The church leadership should confront the Christian in question, giving him or her a chance to repent (stop sinning). A refusal on the part of the man or woman in question would be a rejection of the authority of the church, and so excommunication would be in order.

Rom831

August 22nd, 2003, 07:33 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ynott
If it is true, then the ENTIRE bible must be read for all of its relevant applications and not a "pick me pick me" piecemeal approach which is all too common today.

I think your heart is very much in the right place, Art. I do. But I do not think you have thoroughly read and digested ALL of the applicable passages here. In fact, you have a very real blind spot with regard to judgment of any kind it would seem.

Please take some time to review these posts with applicable passages from scripture and do a thorough study of your own. Do not "write them off" because they "don't feel right" to you..and you've already made up your mind..I urge you to do this as a fellow believer.

I agree this IS the problem in our disagreement, but I believe it is on the wrong foot. You are looking at the passages where the Bible says to cast out the sinner and sticking by it. There is nothing inherantly wrong with that except that the hard core stance on that does not fit with the rest of the scriptures that I have stated. You absolutely must incorporate ALL of scripture into it.

You all have done a very nice job of incorporating the casting out parts, but not in light of the rest of scripture. Somehow we have to incorporate ALL of it. And as I have pointed out (or tried to), we are ALL sinners and there ARE things that we ALL do that, if we are honest, that we're not really repentant over.

Being repentant isn't about feeling guilty, isn't about knowing you should do something else, its about stopping what you shouldn't be doing, turning around and doing what you should. I don't understand how me saying we are ALL unrepentant about some things and ALL need to change and do what is right is a "feel-good" doctrine. I am saying 'look at yourself (goes for me too), take the plank out of your eye, repent and straighten up for you are no less guilty than those you want to point at.' While yours is saying 'look at how bad you are. If you don't repent...."

No, you cant ignore the bad parts for the good. But you can't ignore the bad parts that point to you in favor of those that point to others. The call to repentance is to ALL of us for ALL sins, not just the ones we deem as 'big sins'. We cannot point our fingers at someone else and chastise them as unrepentant for a particular sin while we are still unrepentant for ANY sin.

As long as we are not TOTALLY repentant for ALL our sins, we best be careful about condeming and casting out others. And this includes greed, selfishness, not loving our neighbors as ourselves and putting ourselves and our wants above other's needs. But with knowing this is true not just of those we want to point at but true of 99% of all of us we can see there would be no one left IN the church to cast us out. So we have to look further.

You continue "The church is NOT supposed to be full of UNREPENTANT sinners... Get the difference yet?"

The difference I get is that you believe that you are totally repentant of every sin including those I mention. Again, repentance is NOT asking forgivness, it is not feeling bad or knowing what you did was wrong. That is being convicted of your sin. Repentance is TURNING FROM your sin; not doing it anymore. Paul even admits that he is not fully able to do this.

As I sit here contemplating the fifty bucks I blew on stupid stuff for my camping trip tonight, relizing it was as much as I gave BOTH the families I sponsor for food, what crosses my mind? How I can help them more? No, more stupid stuff I need to get before I can go play. do I feel I should do something different? Yes. Do I feel bad that the kids I sponser don't have much of anything? Yep (I sent them Christmas money, instead of a gift for themselves, one bought a cow and the other two goats). Will I go out tonight and spend my money on citranella tiki torch oil and beef jerky instead. Yep. That's selfishness, not repentance.

Bless...ArtS

KrispyKritter

August 22nd, 2003, 07:48 AM

So I guess Paul didnt really mean what he said then. But then, if thats the case... maybe we need to question the rest of the Bible too.

Paul was very specific about which sins he was referring to. They were all concerning morality... especially sexual immorality.

Rom831

August 22nd, 2003, 07:49 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KrispyKritter
I agree... unrepentant is the key word in all this.

See my long post on why I believe we are all unrepentant to some degree

Let me give you an example...

Ok, let me try two examples on you.

1) My wife left me for another man. I tried to get her to leave the affair - no. I tried to get her to come back - no. I tried to get her to counselling - no. Instead she divorced me. Should she be barred from our church? What if she stayed with him and married him? Barred? What if your guy married that woman? What if any divorcee gets remarried?

2) I have a girlfriend. I am really hopeful on this and would like to see it lead to marriage. But no way to know yet. I'm pretty good at following most of God's laws, but have to admit, I am simply no good on that no premarital sex part. I can say now I'll try to avoid it, but I know when together, I'll give in. Excommunicate me?

Bless...ArtS

antsinmypants

August 22nd, 2003, 07:49 AM

to be a "judge" or discerner in a congregation, you have to have much prayer as an elder-- and have removed the sin (Beam/plank/splinter) from your life, and had a heart to heart with YHVH, to go to the UNREPENTANT SEXUAL SINNER... and ask them to please stop, to witness to them, show them the applicable scripture etc- and tell them (IF they are a member) that this goes against what Messiah Y'shua has taught, and the guidelines of the entire Bible.

If they don't listen- you go again with another..

If they still don't listen- You go with TWO witnesses.. and if still not- - -you take them to the rest of the elders, and the decision is made to remove the person from the rest of the congregation.

Why? They haven't repented- they have become defiant in their actions.

Why? Because- the younger people will see that this is not something punishable, thereby "G-d couldn't possibly see it as wrong"...

Why? Because new believers will think the same as the younger people...

Why? Because the older believers will be so upset about what is happening-- they might leave the congregation because the situation hasn't been dealt with BIBLICALLY.

Why? Because a little bit of mold, leavens the whole lump-- and if left alone- RUINS IT.

That in itself explains what Paul said- in 1st and 2nd Corinthians about sexual sin and the believers-- and the congregation they're meeting at.

Sorry you'd be one of those so defiant and upset about getting "let go".. but - defiance merits punishment- even as the whole of the bible teaches.... just as lying and sexual sins.. and witchcraft. -- in the bible-- these are all ranked on the SAME level, and it's said that all of these (Fornicators, Liars, Sorcerers, homoxexuals etc. ) Inherit the lake of fire.

If you don't believe me- ask my mom-- because she's said it enough to me when I was little :P:

:wave

Jael

August 22nd, 2003, 07:53 AM

Art, your position requires us to believe that God gave us a command that He never intended us to obey...the Lord knew that no one in the church would be completely perfected and free from sin in this life, yet He still gave us instructions about how to deal with a specific category of open, unrepented sins within the church body. God does not contradict Himself, and He was very clear on this issue. I have to believe that He knew what He was doing when the Holy Spirit inspired that particular scripture to be written.

antsinmypants

August 22nd, 2003, 07:54 AM

Originally posted by Ynott
Art, read this very carefully, for you seem to have skipped it time and time again in every single post.

The church is full of sinners.

The church is NOT supposed to be full of UNREPENTANT sinners.

That is the difference.

That is what Paul speaks of.

Get the difference yet?

Right on.

The difference here: Sinners are people trying to do right, constantly binding themselves closer to G-d.

Unrepentant Sinners: Constantly backpedalling and trying to bind theirselves to the world-- aka the master of this world HaSatan--- and creating stumbling blocks for those who are trying (as David, Paul or even Timothy... Titus or a myriad of others in the bible) to do RIGHT and LIVE right.

We can't have that in the congregations- why? It causes too many problems.

"A little chametz levens the whole loaf".

What is Chametz? It's a little bit of old loaf aka a little molded bread- put in with the rest of the dough to make it leavened.. why? because there didn't used to be "readily available yeast"..
Why is the analogy used? because- a little bit of sexual sin-- leads to ALOT of sexual sin-- and alot of other things.

KrispyKritter

August 22nd, 2003, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by Rom831
[QUOTE]Originally posted by KrispyKritter
[B]2) I have a girlfriend. I am really hopeful on this and would like to see it lead to marriage. But no way to know yet. I'm pretty good at following most of God's laws, but have to admit, I am simply no good on that no premarital sex part. I can say now I'll try to avoid it, but I know when together, I'll give in. Excommunicate me?

Bless...ArtS

Art... are any of us any good at the premarital sex thing? I wasnt a Christian before I married, so that wasnt even an issue for me. Anyway, there is a big difference between you struggling with that issue... and someone who says "yea, I know what the Bible says... but I'm gonna do it anyway, and I dont care!" Obviously you do care, and you're struggling. What Paul is talking about are people who know better, and do it anyway... and basically flaunt it in the face of God.

By the way... you've lost half your battle anyway. Your words betray you. You've already given up your struggle. Why? Dont do that, man. Sexual purity can be yours with the help of the Holy Spirit.

As far as your wife is concerned... if she left you for someone else, and shacked up with him, and didnt care what the Word of God said about it... and wanted to continue on with a church, then yes she should be put out. If the leadership confronted her and she refused to stop doing what she was doing... then Bible is clear on what should happen. Even if she remarried. Taking vows doesnt erase the sin. The Bible says that if someone divorces and remarries then they are committing adultry with their new spouse. Now... my personal belief is that if after they marry they see the light and repent of the sin and hurt they caused others, then they are forgiven. (This is speaking of people who are Christians who divorce and remarry) However, I do not believe they should leave their new spouse... God will wipe the slate clean right where they are, and they move on from there. The only thing they can not do is be in church leadership.

This would not apply to you because you divorced her because of her unfaithfulness, and according to scripture you are free to remarry. Also, if an unbeliever leaves a believer, then the believer is free to remarry as well.

There is hardly any church discipline today, and it's one of the reasons the church is in the sad shape it is in. It's pathetic.

Rom831

August 22nd, 2003, 08:40 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Obviously you do care, and you're struggling. What Paul is talking about are people who know better, and do it anyway... and basically flaunt it in the face of God.

I guess this comes down to us disagreeing on what being repentant is. Just because I care, know its wrong, and wish I was strong enough to obey, in my belife, doesn't make me repentant. Sure I feel convicted about it, but I'm not turning from it.

By the way... you've lost half your battle anyway. Your words betray you. You've already given up your struggle. Why? Dont do that, man. Sexual purity can be yours with the help of the Holy Spirit.

You mistake me knowing for me struggeling. I struggle with it not being right, but I'm not putting up much of a struggle to avoid it. When I wasn't dating her, I tried not to fall into casual sex, but now that I am with someone I care for and am hopeful for a future with, I have to admit I'm not fighting all that much. I just dont see how that makes me any different from the person you describe. The attitude may be different, but the action isnt.

Bless...ArtS

Jael

August 22nd, 2003, 08:52 AM

You mistake me knowing for me struggeling. I struggle with it not being right, but I'm not putting up much of a struggle to avoid it. When I wasn't dating her, I tried not to fall into casual sex, but now that I am with someone I care for and am hopeful for a future with, I have to admit I'm not fighting all that much. I just dont see how that makes me any different from the person you describe. The attitude may be different, but the action isnt.

Well, Art...when you put it that way, I have to tell you (with love and respect), that you probably would be subject to church discipline in the church where I fellowship...if the pastor talked to you and you stated that you were not going to strive to overcome this temptation and turn from this sin, but intended to continue practicing it, he would counsel you and work with you for awhile.

But if you remained unrepentant, he would disfellowship you (that's what we call it, because we recognize that we cannot put anyone out of the body of Christ, we can only separate someone from fellowship with our local body). People who are struggling with sin, and occasionally fall are not disfellowshipped in my church - but those who avow that they do not intend to turn from it are (whether they make this assertion explicitly or implicitly - such as by living together with a girlfriend/boyfriend)

It's a matter of the heart...we do not all achieve victory over sin instantaneously, but there's a difference between a heart that says "Lord I'm weak, but I want to obey you and I am asking you to help me stand" and a heart that says "Obedience is too hard and I'm just not going to do it." Hope I haven't offended you, I hate to talk about people's personal situations, because it's easy to hurt someone's feelings without meaning to. I am just trying to respond honestly to the question you asked.

KrispyKritter

August 22nd, 2003, 09:08 AM

Ahhh... well that puts a whole new twist on things. I love ya, Art, and sometimes telling someone the truth is hard, but I am beginning to see why you're putting up such a defense against this piece of scripture. It's hitting too close to home.

I agree with Jael, that you are what this scripture is talking about in that you're not that interested in putting up much of a fight even tho you know that fornication (lets call it what it is) is a sin. If you were attending one of the house fellowships in our network... and we were talking face to face about this... I would confront you with as much compassion as I can muster and advise you that you are putting your spiritual health at risk. I would offer to pray for you (which, by the way, I'm going to do). If you decide not to heed my words, but continue on... then all the elders would summon you. If you blew all of us off... then you woudl put out.

I dont mean to be harsh, Art... and I mean none of this in a harsh or judgemental way... I'm just responding to your posts in a way that I believe scripture tells me to.

cindyw

August 22nd, 2003, 09:09 AM

Krispy, sent you two PM's. Blessings, Cindy:):

Ynott

August 22nd, 2003, 09:37 AM

((((Art)))) My brother! I agree with Krispy and Jael. I understand where you are coming from.

You are right. The flesh is too weak to resist. But we, Christians, are not "in the flesh". We are "in Christ". Don't try to fight it all by yourself. Lean on God for His Strength.

The most obvious thing to do is to NOT put yourself into any possibly compromising positions. Meet in PUBLIC places only.

Jesus never said it would be easy. It isn't. We are to be "in the world" and yet "not OF the world". You have a million messages blasted at you daily about how "right" it is....How it isn't hurting anyone.

Okay, now I have to say this very clearly.

Art, as a believer, you KNOW that you ARE hurting someone. When Christ died on that cross FOR YOU, he took every sin you ever committed and every sin you ever WILL commit with Him to the grave.

To knowingly commit a sin (and use whatever excuse you want..."I'm weak"....."It just happened"...."I didnt plan it."....), it is the same thing as picking up that whip and laying it across Christ's back. Every thought, word and deed that constitutes a sin does that. You can repent and be forgiven, but Christ still BEARS YOUR SIN!

He was WOUNDED for our transgressions! He sacrificed His LIFE for our Sins!

So the next time that your "honey" looks totally irresistible, envision yourself picking up a whip and flaying Christ alive! Or pounding another nail into His Hands! Or just spitting on Him while He hangs on the cross FOR YOU!

When you KNOWINGLY sin and HABITUALLY put yourself into a position of continuing the sin, you betray the very MEANING of being a Believer.

Beyond that, you are also placing your "girlfriend's" sins upon Christ. For you KNOW what you are doing is wrong. You never said if she was a Christian or not, so she may not be "knowingly" sinning at this point....BUT YOU KNOW!

Additionally, others around you view your conduct and are affected by it, whether you believe that or not. So many eyes watch us every day. You would be surprised at your "witness" in this regard. Sometimes, the only Jesus that folks see is in us, the average Christian. You send a very poor message by such conduct....How many souls are lost ( you will never know) because of what you choose to do?

I will pray for you Art. I will pray for you to lean totally on Christ in this. It isn't easy. But I know that Christ can help you through this, brother.

KrispyKritter

August 22nd, 2003, 09:49 AM

Art... bro... I'm gonna say this, and I mean it from my heart... In this relationship you need to be the man, and if you really love or care about this woman, you will not allow yourself to put her in a position of sinning against the Lord and possibly causing damage to her spiritual health too.

Love does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil...

Love does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth...

Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

If this relationship has a future, then you need to begin now to be the spiritual leader. You're going to lead her in one way or the other... either it will be toward a closed union with the Lord, or away from the Lord. Fornication will not lead her closer to Him.

What kind of leader will you be, Art?

Ynott

August 22nd, 2003, 09:54 AM

Perhaps this will help with the repentant definition that you are coloring all shades of grey.

There is such a thing as a spontaneous sin. We are creatures of habit. I swore alot before I became a believer.....Under pressure, foul language still ushers forth. It is a sin for which I immediately ask forgiveness.

A stray thought enters my head of jealousy, retribution, anger, whatever....I thrust it out and ask forgiveness.

UNREPENTANT sin is HABITUAL sin. It is pre-meditated. It is planned. Placing yourself in compromising positions is the same thing as "planning" to sin. You fool noone....not even yourself with that one.

Even secular law covers this. We have Murder and Manslaughter as charges.

The Old Testament even has Cities of Refuge for people to run to when they have accidentally killed someone (to escape the sure and final punishment of familial retribution from the victim's family).

If you are seeing too much grey, then you need to step back and really give some serious thought to your lifestyle.

I am not judging you on this, Art. I am really trying to counsel you with the scripture.

I am not without sin, my brother. I fall far too short to judge you. We are all a "work in progress". I'm just trying to reach out and give you a helping hand from one who stumbles all too often on my own.

Give it to God, Art. He can carry ANY load.

Ynott

August 22nd, 2003, 09:57 AM

Amen! To what Krispy said as well. God has ordained that the Man shall be the spiritual authority within the family. If you do indeed have a future with this woman, then you need to begin now to assert the role of priest and spiritual leader within your relationship.

Excellent point, krispy. Well thought out and added.

KrispyKritter

August 22nd, 2003, 10:58 AM

Thanx... spiritual leadership in families is a real hot button for me these days.

John Tyson

August 22nd, 2003, 11:03 AM

Grace and peace to you all.

No doubt, a so-called brother who is living in open adultery should be removed from the fellowship of the church. The problem is, most churches choose to ignore it. I say again, most churches choose to ignore it! I see it happening in my church and it is a So. Baptist church, one of the more stricter denominations--in talk.

God bless,
John

cindyw

August 22nd, 2003, 11:26 AM

John,

I know that you are in the Divorce Recovery ministry. Do you go by the DivorceCare literature/teachings in your ministry?

I would like to share something which really grieved me and my husband when we viewed the material for this popular ministry. We viewed the tapes on divorce/remarriage/new relationships and this is what we found: nowhere were those who divorced EVER given scripture to go back to those marriages or stay single as scripture admonishes. I'm not talking about the divorces which are disputable (on so called biblical grounds of adultery), I'm talking about those divorces which were obtained for clearly non-biblical reasons.

This material/teachings then goes on to tell how to conduct oneself in future relationships/marriages and never discuss what Jesus said about those: that they who entered into these relationships would be entering into adultery. Many Churches are sanctioning sin IMHO by teaching and encouraging people to go against Jesus' teachings in the Gospels and through Paul's teachings on marriage/separation and remarriage. Instead of teaching reconciliation, many churches are encouraging sin and the continued breakdown of family by not adhering to the Word of God and lifting those up who are downtrodden and depressed..........very sad, but that's just MHO. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

Rom831

August 22nd, 2003, 11:35 AM

I appreciate all your counselings, but that was not my point. But I think what I was trying to get at is being made clear. We ALL sin. And there are sins we each commit over and over that if we are honest with ourselves, we feel bad about, yet are going to do again.

My example of greed, selfishness, putting ourselves first and not loving our brother as ourselves was rejected by many here because it hits too close to home. It was rationalized or ignored away. Why? Because some don't want to admit what I am saying.

Yet when I not only admit the same sins nearly every American has, but one that maybe you personally do not, the one sin you do not have gets me counselled and told that if I was with your church, I'd be removed from it. Yet you do not see your own sin and lack of repentance for it.

Jesus Himself said to be perfect (no sin = perfection), sell all your poosessions and give to the needy. Have you? Do you have any intention to obey Jesus in this? If you say "no", you are disobeying and not repenting. Which leads me right back to don't cast stones until you are He who is without sin.

Bless...ArtS

Ynott

August 22nd, 2003, 12:07 PM

But Art, I do not practice greed, selfishness or putting myself first. In fact, most Christians I know do not. Who are you associating with?

I know many of my sins and have admitted some of them here. I readily admit that there are sins that I probably do not even recognize in myself and I pray also for them to be brought to my attention that I might repent of them and be forgiven.

Am I perfect then? HEAVENS NO! Paul himself said that he was "chief among sinners"!

Do not misunderstand what we are saying here. Everyone sins. Not everybody sins in the same ways or with the same sins. Don't assume that we do.

Am I occasionally given to the sins you named? No doubt! But it would be a spontaneous sin in those cases. They are not my BIG trouble areas.

My big trouble area is the blame game and anger management. I know myself. Don't try to recreate all of us in your perceived image. There is enough sin to go around.

I don't TRY to commit those sins and actively DO TRY to avoid situations in which they might occur....including avoiding certain threads and forums here! :tape

And that is the point. Know your weak areas and do your best to avoid them, remedy them, repent of them, pray about them. God will help you if you sincerely ask Him.

It doesn't happen over night. But it happens.

Ynott

August 22nd, 2003, 12:22 PM

Perhaps I am not making the delineation clear?

Although I may "repeat" a sin (a lifetime is a long time, after all). It is the PREMEDITATION or DESIRE TO CONTINUE in a particular sin which is UNREPENTANT sin.

I have cursed on more than one occasion and no doubt will again. I do not plan to do it. It comes out before I can think about it under stress. I must admit that through the HS, I AM getting better and many of my coarser phrases have totally departed (thank you Lord!). My walk is therefore improving.

At NO POINT do I contemplate swearing again. I do not DESIRE to swear. If it comes into my mind, I push it out! I don't dwell upon it.

This is in direct opposition to someone who "lusts" after someone in their heart and "dwells" upon the idea (not pushing it out as sinful and repenting of it). Thoughts lead to action which are ALSO sinful. Thought often lead to words which are ALSO sinful.

Am I sinning? YES! Is it PREMEDITATED OR PLANNED? No, it is an accumulated bad habit from my previous life. I constantly remind myself that I am a new creation and strenuously try to avoid it and situations that might cause it.

Do you see the difference yet?

The desire TO AVOID SIN is what separates a believer from a "backslidden" believer.

KrispyKritter

August 22nd, 2003, 12:23 PM

Art... BLATANT IMMORALITY and BLATANT REBELLION is what the scripture is referring to. Are you really that blind? (no offense...)

Ynott

August 22nd, 2003, 12:30 PM

Paul also tells us it is "better to marry than to burn".....Perhaps you should seriously consider marriage with your girlfriend?

Is she a Christian? Do you wish marriage to be the end result of your relationship? If so, pursue her as your "future wife".

If you do NOT wish to marry her, then release her (and yourself).

If you are unsure, then meet her only in public places until you can truly make an informed decision, court her. Between the sheets is NOT a marriage MADE IN HEAVEN. Love is about respect. Respect for each other. Respect for God who gives us love and shows us what TRUE love is all about. It will color your future relationship forever and in fact will undermine the very authority that Krispy is speaking of. Do you want a love that will last forever? You must live it to have it. God has given us the way to go. With His help, you too can have this kind of love in your life.

Your body (and hers!) are temples of the Lord. Do not desecrate them in lust. Instead, cherish the God-given institution of marriage enough to wait. You won't be sorry!

KrispyKritter

August 22nd, 2003, 12:33 PM

Art, I believe an error your making is you are lumping all sin under the same heading. You simply can not do that. I agree with what Ynott has been saying 100%.

Some teach that all sin is the same in Gods eyes. That simply is an error. Sin is not all the same in Gods eyes. He calls homosexuality an "abomination". He doesnt call treating your neighbor like crap an "abomination". It's still a sin, but it's not a moral sin. And most folks I know who are believers do not throw up their hands and say "well... I cant fight it... I'm just gonna give in anyway and let my dog take a leak in the Smith's flower garden".

We should strive to eradicate sin from our lives at all levels. But you'll find that as we mature in the Lord He will always be revealing darkness in us until our last breath. But it's a matter of the heart attitude... and yes, it's a matter of morality.

There is a list of different types of people that teh Bible says will not inherit the Kingdom of God. There is a list of different types of people who should be put out of a fellowship if the refuse to repent. It's very specific.

John Tyson

August 22nd, 2003, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by cindyw
John,

I know that you are in the Divorce Recovery ministry. Do you go by the DivorceCare literature/teachings in your ministry?

I would like to share something which really grieved me and my husband when we viewed the material for this popular ministry. We viewed the tapes on divorce/remarriage/new relationships and this is what we found: nowhere were those who divorced EVER given scripture to go back to those marriages or stay single as scripture admonishes. I'm not talking about the divorces which are disputable (on so called biblical grounds of adultery), I'm talking about those divorces which were obtained for clearly non-biblical reasons.

This material/teachings then goes on to tell how to conduct oneself in future relationships/marriages and never discuss what Jesus said about those: that they who entered into these relationships would be entering into adultery. Many Churches are sanctioning sin IMHO by teaching and encouraging people to go against Jesus' teachings in the Gospels and through Paul's teachings on marriage/separation and remarriage. Instead of teaching reconciliation, many churches are encouraging sin and the continued breakdown of family by not adhering to the Word of God and lifting those up who are downtrodden and depressed..........very sad, but that's just MHO. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

Throughout the series reconciliation is emphasized. 12 Chapter "Reconciliation" and video stresses the importance of reestablishing the marriage. Also, in the two chapters dealing with the children of divorce, the statistics drives home the need of marriages staying together. I certainly counsel for it if at all possible. Cindy, bare in mind that we have relatively few people come to participate in DivorceCare that are members of my church. They generally become members, at least for awhile. It would probably surprise you how many pastors wives have come through our program. We have one male missionary in the program now. Please pray for all these folks, they are hurting so.

As far as never remarrying. I believe sometime ago you made it clear you take a narrower view than I do on whether a divorced person can remarry or should remain in a remarriage. It is not that I believe scripture any less than you do--we have a different understanding. For what it is worth and this is not to boost, I have taught adult bible studies for over 20 years and I have a passing knowledge of scripture.

Now that aside, I have known of people whom while still married were living with another person and were members of my church. On that, I believe we will both agree that that should not be.

God bless,
John

Rom831

August 22nd, 2003, 01:19 PM

At one point in the Bible, Adultry and murder are compared and called the same. At another adultry and favoritism are equalled. We are told if you break ANY law, you are a lawbreaker and guilty of breaking the EINTIRE Law. Murder, adultery or favoritism, you are still just as guilty, still just as much of a sinner. Not repenting from sin is being unrepentant, period.

And if you claim not to practice greed or selfishness, if you claim to always put others first and love your neighbor as yourself, how much of your paycheck was spent on things like car payments, movies, fast food, pop, enterrtainment, nice clothes, etc. How many pairs of shoes are in your closets? Videos in your collection? And please tell me you are responding on a work or library computer and you do not own one. Because there are people, right this very instant dying from hunger, lack of potable water, and not even the most basic of medicines (even a simple bandaid!).

Why are wasting your money on these luxaries for yourself and not sending all the money you can to save the very lives of your brothers and sisters? Why are you putting your wants in front of their NEEDS? You living in comparitave luxary while the "least of us" die for lack of the most basic necessities of life is loving them as you love yourself? Is putting them first? Is serving them? Is not selfishly treating yourself and keeping your blessings when they could be used to serve?

I'm sorry, if you do not see this then it it is not I who am blind. And unless you decide to repent and follow Jesus commands to do these things, then you are unrepentant of these things. And PLEASE do not think I am pointing fingers at you. I am just as guilty. I just admit it. I suppose that is just to make me no worse than you, huh? But of course, it also makes me no better than anyone else.

Bless...ArtS

KrispyKritter

August 22nd, 2003, 01:27 PM

Art.... now you're trying to justify. Obviously you're not receptive to anything I am saying (or anyone else for that matter) so I'm just not going to continue on with this discussion.

I'll pray for you, and I hope you'll pray for me too... for we are brothers. But I'm simply not going to waste my time on this.

Rom831

August 22nd, 2003, 01:28 PM

And as far as your differences in sins, what IS a sin? Is it a list of do's and don'ts in a book that we get to post values to? Why are some things sinful and not others?

The SIN is the rebellion against God. It is the breaking of His Laws. It is not the act itself. Eating fruit off a tree wasn't Adam and Eve's sin. Their sin was disobeying God. that is our sin as well. That is the point of the scriupture that puts favoritism and adultry on an even keel. Its not because of what we do, its the rebellion against God. Cussing is not a sin because of what comes out of our mouths, it is because of what is INSIDE us. God says "no" but we do it anyway. THAT is the sin. And that is the same sin no matter what actuall hapenstance it is that we do. It puts your adulterous friend, me and you all in the same boat.

No matter the sin, God only gives one and only one punishment for it - death.

Bless...ArtS

Rom831

August 22nd, 2003, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Art.... now you're trying to justify.

Huh? I'm not trying to justify anything. I am owning up to my sins. That doesn't make them any less sinful or more justifyable. How is Saying I am guilty, trying to justify anything?

Bless...ArtS

cindyw

August 22nd, 2003, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by John Tyson
Throughout the series reconciliation is emphasized. 12 Chapter "Reconciliation" and video stresses the importance of reestablishing the marriage. Also, in the two chapters dealing with the children of divorce, the statistics drives home the need of marriages staying together. I certainly counsel for it if at all possible.

Yes, John I know that reconciliation is mentioned. But in the section on other relationships which may lead to remarriage-----there was not 1 mention of sin in entering into these relationships if reconciliation with the 1st spouse did not happen. That's what I have a BIG, BIG problem with. By MOVING ON, many people are moving right into sin. Paul in I Cor. 7:1-11 addresses this........but if you do (separate), you are to remain single or be reconciled to your "spouse"------that is because the Lord still views that person as being married to their orginal spouse. This is a COMMAND, not a "if you feel like it". That is exactly what Jesus taught in Mt. 5 and 19----anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery----why? Because in God's eyes she is STILL MARRIED/JOINED to her first husband. That was not presented in the DivorceCare materials we read and watched and that omission is what greatly disturbs me concerning this 'moving on' encouragement.

Whether one believes the adultery is a one time sin or a continual sin-----either way it is a sin and should not be sanctioned in any way shape or form by the CHURCH---in the guise of comforting those who are hurting. It's especially troubling that many Pastors think nothing of violating scripture and causing their sheep to enter into this sin by marrying them.............This should not be so in the Church of God. JMHO. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

Ynott

August 22nd, 2003, 02:55 PM

I have to go along with Krispy on this one too, Art. It would appear that in order for you to justify your position, you have simply said that it is an "impossible situation" for any believer. We stand condemned and there is nothing we can do about it. So why try?

I will also continue to pray for you. I know that it will come in time. I place my faith in Christ as I know that you do. My time is not His time. Eventually, this will be made clear to you.

God bless and avoid temptation when you can.

Edited to add: I end it here to avoid dissension between the brethren. I believe that all sides have been aired and examined. If we have not reached a compatible concensus then perhaps more thought and prayer are needed. Certainly enough scripture has been provided.

May God yield to us the truth of the matter and humble our hearts to it.

Pointerman

August 22nd, 2003, 03:59 PM

Ynott and Krispy,
Your wisdom makes me proud to call you a brother in Christ. Thanks for shooting straight.

Art,
I'll be praying for you brother. When I first came to Christ I broke off a long time relationship because it was an unpure relationship. I never saw her or called her until years later we passed a couple of emails back and forth. She is a Christian now also. I thank God that he gave me the strength to do the right thing even though it was difficult at the time. In the long run we were both better off.

May God bless you with your struggles.

Angyl

August 22nd, 2003, 04:05 PM

My first post in this thread.

I have NOT read the original post.
and
I have NOT read anyone else's posts after that. (I'm just not in the mood).

I only popped in here to answer the question of the title of this thread, "Should a Christian be excommunicated from a church for adultery."

The answer depends entirely upon whether or not that person is repentant. No church should have members that openly and unrepentantly GLORIFY in their sin as it brings down the testimony of the church and all its members.

If a person committed adultery, repented, and (since this is an OPEN sin before the entire church body) made their repentance clear before the church, I would see no reason to kick them out.

We all make mistakes.

EVERY-DARN-DAY!

*Angyl is willing to bet that Krispy has said basically the same thing already*

frisian1970

August 22nd, 2003, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by Rom831
[QUOTE]Originally posted by KrispyKritter
I agree... unrepentant is the key word in all this.

See my long post on why I believe we are all unrepentant to some degree

Let me give you an example...

Ok, let me try two examples on you.

1) My wife left me for another man. I tried to get her to leave the affair - no. I tried to get her to come back - no. I tried to get her to counselling - no. Instead she divorced me. Should she be barred from our church? What if she stayed with him and married him? Barred? What if your guy married that woman? What if any divorcee gets remarried?

2) I have a girlfriend. I am really hopeful on this and would like to see it lead to marriage. But no way to know yet. I'm pretty good at following most of God's laws, but have to admit, I am simply no good on that no premarital sex part. I can say now I'll try to avoid it, but I know when together, I'll give in. Excommunicate me?

Bless...ArtS

I am stunned....premarital sex and you continue in this behavior ? As if you did what you wished you didn't ....??? Like Paul talks about ? Aren't we made as snow through Christ's blood ?

Frog

August 22nd, 2003, 07:34 PM

very visible member of church... had affair with a minor(14)... wants to leave wife/kids (2) for a teenager... unbelievable.

I don't dispute that he needs to be excommunicated... they are in process of revoking his membership...

what I disagreed with was the public nature in which they did this... calling a church meeting to discuss the situation... the man wanted nothing more to do with the church... he is giving up everything for a 14 year old... he's in his 30s...

I just don't see the need for an all church meeting to discuss this when he stated he no longer wanted anythingto do with the church... when I learned of "this meeting"... I honestly felt that feeling of "evil" being present... that this meeting was not a good thing. I could not stay for it... to me, it was just a public gossip session... I saw absolutely no need for "this meeting"... as far as I was concerned, they could have revoked the membership quietly. By making a big deal of it, in my opinion, it is his wife and 2 kids that suffer... not him.

too bad... the 14 year old will probably hit the road anyway... and then he'll realize - like so many - just what he has lost! - or he'll end up in jail for statutory rape... the kid was a foster child... What a horrible shame to see so many lives devastated like this.:cry :cry :cry

Frog

AlishaGail

August 22nd, 2003, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by Frog
very visible member of church... had affair with a minor(14)... wants to leave wife/kids (2) for a teenager... unbelievable.

I don't dispute that he needs to be excommunicated... they are in process of revoking his membership...

what I disagreed with was the public nature in which they did this... calling a church meeting to discuss the situation... the man wanted nothing more to do with the church... he is giving up everything for a 14 year old... he's in his 30s...

I just don't see the need for an all church meeting to discuss this when he stated he no longer wanted anythingto do with the church... when I learned of "this meeting"... I honestly felt that feeling of "evil" being present... that this meeting was not a good thing. I could not stay for it... to me, it was just a public gossip session... I saw absolutely no need for "this meeting"... as far as I was concerned, they could have revoked the membership quietly. By making a big deal of it, in my opinion, it is his wife and 2 kids that suffer... not him.

too bad... the 14 year old will probably hit the road anyway... and then he'll realize - like so many - just what he has lost! - or he'll end up in jail for statutory rape... the kid was a foster child... What a horrible shame to see so many lives devastated like this.:cry :cry :cry

Frog

What a horrible situation!!! I too agree that this man at least should be 'kicked out' of the church. He definitely sounds unrepentent and this isn't something that he can even try to rationalize away.

With the fact that he left of his own will, and the fact that he was being officially kicked out anyway, I don't see the need for a meeting either. Why subject his soon-to-be ex wife and children to such a public spectacle?

Lisha

SapphireGrl

August 22nd, 2003, 08:41 PM

I wasn't going to post in this thread again because I believe that Krispy, Jael, Ynott, et al, have done an outstanding job presenting scripture, wisdom, and most importantly Truth in this thread. But something keeps bothering me a great deal. I keep thinking about all of the people that are reading this thread and are reading Art's words and agreeing with him, and thus continuing in their sin as a result. That disturbs me.

So I want to point out something in 1 Corinthians 5 that I believe Art is missing when he says that no one has the authority to disfellowship with others because we are all sinners. First of all, he's missing the fact that there are specific sins that are being addressed in verse 11. Verse 11 is discussing the sexually immoral, the covetous, abusers, drunkards, idolaters, and swindlers. For some reason, a lot of people seem to ignore the fact that specific sins are addressed in this chapter, not all sins. This is an important distinction because of the effects and results that these sins breed within the church body. And so when people ignore this, we then end up with arguments where people try to say that since we all sin this passage must be invalid. That could not be further from the truth.

Also, it's been said before, but I want to re-emphasize this. There is a difference between Christians that are sinning and are repentant and Christians that sin and just don't care. There's a difference between Christians that try their hardest not to sin and those that give a half-hearted attempt or lip service to the Truth but keep on doing what they want to do anyway. Christ said go and sin no more, he didn't say keep on doing what you're doing, you'll be alright in the end. He didn't say we have the right to abuse the Grace that has been given to us.

If there's no repentance, that Christian is pure poison to his/her church body. Sin spreads. It's like a cancer that spreads throughout the entire body. What you are telling us to do, Art, is to allow the cancer to spread. You are telling us to ignore what God says about sin infecting the entire body in the name of not offending anyone because hey, we all sin. You are also contradicting God by stating that we don't have the right to judge those within the church, when 1 Corin 5:13 states that we are to judge those within the church.

What is also being missed by Art is WHY God instructs us to put the rebellious Christian out of the Church. 1 Cor 5:5-7 says,

5 Then you must cast this man out of the church and into Satan's hands, so that his sinful nature will be destroyed and he himself will be saved when the Lord returns.
6How terrible that you should boast about your spirituality, and yet you let this sort of thing go on. Don't you realize that if even one person is allowed to go on sinning, soon all will be affected? 7Remove this wicked person from among you so that you can stay pure.

We are to put the unrepentant sinner out of the Church for two reasons. First, so that the church body will remain pure. Secondly, so that the rebellious Christian can be turned over to satan and their soul saved. It is lonely when all of your Christian friends have cut you off because you're doing what you want to do instead of what God tells you to do. It is embarrassing when your church has put you out so that you don't infect the rest of the congregation with your rebellion. It is shameful when your fellow Christians can't even share a meal with you because of your unChristian behavior. So God tells us to turn you over to Satan so that you can be put through the wringer, and hopefully realize that living in rebellion to God leads to nothing but utter destruction.

A lot of people look at this situation emotionally and believe that it is cruel and unChristian to do this, even though they know that this is something that God instructs us to do. Having gone through this twice with a former friend of mine, I am here to tell you that it is one of the most loving things you can do for your brother or sister that is sinning unrepentantly and living in rebellion. God knows more than we do. God is wiser than we are. So whether or not we should do this is not up for debate. If we love God, we will obey him. If we love God, we will trust him and know that he knows what he's doing. We have to put our own feelings and opinions on the matter aside and simply be obedient to God. And if he instructs us to disfellowship with someone, then that's what we have to do.

Art, I have a question for you. Are you trying to turn from your sin at all or are you just enjoying it? Do you feel sorrow for your sin or have you reached that place where you just acknowledge that this is just something that you're going to do? Do you just have the head knowledge where you know you should feel bad because you know it's a sin, yet you don't? I see you said that you don't even struggle with not doing it, that you just struggle with the fact that it's a sin. So are you trying in any way to obey God and sin no more?

Jael

August 22nd, 2003, 08:46 PM

Wow, excellent post, Sapphire!

mrsppmrxky

August 23rd, 2003, 12:53 PM

Art,

Several things that you have posted have really caused me to do some thinking. I even woke up this morning at 4:30 and thought about your situation and prayed that your eyes would be opened to see what God has to say to you.

I am not sure how old you are or if you have children. I have seen many situations in my years and have seen the results of how sin is handled in the church.

Several churches that had problems dealing with sexual sins dealt with them in different ways. Each had different results.

1st church: I was 17 and the song director/chairman of the deacons had an affair with a choir member. The women of the church were the first to catch on to the affair. The men, including my father, rebuked us for coming to them and spreading rumors and repeating gossip. The teens knew what was going on, but nothing was confronted. One night my father happened to go by the chairman's office and saw them together. He then knew that it was true and he brought to the pastor. The deacon was confronted and his reply was that it was untrue, he had been there for years and he would see others leave before he did. Guess what, the majority in the congregation would not stand up against him or ask him to step down. It caused a church split. That church is still there, but it is a 'family church' and is stunted.

2nd church: The church that had broken away ended up with church leaders that came in to join with us that were power hungry. One deacon was taking a 13 yr old girl on bus visitation.... "he always chose her to go with him" Appearances were mentioned and it was denied as rumors. The scenerio was true, they were going off to have sex in the car. This deacon didn't like having his reputation questioned by another deacon, my father and the pastor.
He started plotting and got some of the men to believe that they setting him up and lying about him. (all this is behind the scenes and not being dealt with the body of believers.) The men starting following my mother and younger sister and calling and suggesting that maybe my father should be concerned with their comings and goings. (it was a threat.) They then went behind the deacon board and had dinners with members of the congregation and voted the pastor out. My parents left also. That church is no longer in existance. The man involved is now divorced and generally a drunk that is known as a child molestor.

3rd church: My first church as a married woman who had moved to another state. I worked in the Christian school as a secretary. (Now mind you this is a space of 5 years in my then young life) The pricipal at the school was about the same age as my father. He was wise and easy to talk to. I enjoyed discussing things and taking his advice on our young marriage. I moved from the elementary school to the high school where he spent most of his time. He kept getting phone calls from this one woman in our church. My radar went off, but I didn't say a word to anyone. It went on for several months and I voiced my concern to my husband. He said with my history, I was probably just imagining things. I went into work one day and we had a new principal. The pastor had asked him to resign and he had moved away without a word. It was not explained or addressed. This caused many concerns and problems with the student body.

I had been in church my entire life, but I was so hurt that leaders could not be trusted. I told my husband that I was wanting to quit attending church. I went through 'hellish thoughts' and great distress in my Christian walk over sins from my fellow Christians.

We left that church, I had sins in my own life that were confronting me and I was dealing with that on top of the betrayal. We started visiting another church before we were transferred to Virginia. When we joined a church in Virginia, we found a large church to get lost in. We did not get close to but a few couples and we took no leadership positions. (We needed time to heal.)

I see where all of this worked to my good now, but believe me it was hell to go through at the time. It cause so many hurt feelings and broken friendships, (not that I held anything against them, but neither of us wanted to pursue a realtionship after the humiliations suffered.) Notice, there was still humiliations even when the sin was not dealt with as the Bible directs. The sins came out in the open, but they were not handled in a way that could bring healing.

10 years later:
4th church: As I posted. The pastor and his wife counseled a couple for a long time trying to get the woman to change and repent. She was so openly rebellious that it had to be brought out and dealt with. We handled it in a Bibical fashion. The church meeting was not a tell all the details gossip fest. It was addressed as facts, that adultery was comitted, how they had counselled and over how a long of time and the attitude of the party involved. We had prayer and soul searching before the vote. We voted the woman to be taken off of our membership. She 'visited' and we spoke with her and never 'shunned her' we tried to be nice as always. they transferred, so I don't know the end result of their life, but our church grew in number and spiritually. We never discussed the situation again.

When you said that you are dating and fall into sexual sin and then say, "hey we all sin". While this is true, I don't knowingly commit sin and shrug it off by saying well, the woman that sits next to me has something just as bad going on, so hey, I ain't so bad. When we stand before God, He isn't going to want to hear about anyone else in that conversation but about us. He is only interested in the one person at that moment.

When we have sins that are confronted, our first reaction is embarrassment, and angry at the audacity of the person to speak to us about it. Then, if we don't repent, we give fertile ground for PRIDE to do it's job. Then anger builds and the person justifies remaining in sin and 'leaves the church' and spends the future nursing their wounds and reminding themselves that they are justified in their actions.

I have been down that road, and it ain't a fun trip. It is lonely and isolating and it breaks fellowship with your Father that can only be returned by our PRIDE being broken.

Your signature line reads: "Satan's original lie to man was "Did God REALLY say..." Don't believe it when he says it today. Uphold God's authority starting with the very first verse of His Word"

I suggest that you read the scriptures that were posted in brotherly love to you and then ask yourself the statement in your signature and then reread your own answer posted.

This was said so that you might benefit from the hard lessons that I have learned in my life.

Rom831

August 25th, 2003, 07:47 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SapphireGrl
I keep thinking about all of the people that are reading this thread and are reading Art's words and agreeing with him, and thus continuing in their sin as a result. That disturbs me.

I am not advocating ANY sin. NO sin is acceptable. Mine, yours or anyones.

First of all, he's missing the fact that there are specific sins that are being addressed in verse 11. Verse 11 is discussing the sexually immoral, the covetous, abusers, drunkards, idolaters, and swindlers.

I am not missing that. As I have pointed out, with scripture, sin is isn. The sin is not the act itself, the sin is disobeying God.

For some reason, a lot of people seem to ignore the fact that specific sins are addressed in this chapter, not all sins.

I disagree with this whole heartadly. This sets up an incorrect level of sin which allows us to point at other's sin and show why they are worse sinners than we are. "I may be selfish and not love my neighbor as myself, but at least I'm not like so and so." This is totally wrong and what Jesus sopke of when He told us before pointint out other's sin ('splinter') to first remove ours ('plank').

Christ said go and sin no more, he didn't say keep on doing what you're doing, you'll be alright in the end. He didn't say we have the right to abuse the Grace that has been given to us.

You are very correct. But is that achievable or is that the goal we are to strive for?

What you are telling us to do, Art, is to allow the cancer to spread.

Which cancer? The cancer of sexual impurity or the cancer of selfishness or the cancer of putting yourself first or the cancer of not loving your neighbor as yourself or the cancer of coveting your wealth and possesions so much that you allow others to suffer that you might have more?

You are all twisting what I am saying to ignore what I AM saying. I am BY NO MEANS condining ANY sin. I am pointing out the sin of 98% of every American. A sin in which 98% of them are unrepentant for. Yet you all want to brush it off as either not as important or big a deal as others or as some sin you do, repent, do repent, do, repent, etc. And that is nonsense.

You are telling us to ignore what God says about sin infecting the entire body in the name of not offending anyone because hey, we all sin.

How am I doing this? Did I not say if they are flunting it, if they are trying to get others to follow, if they are making a scene over it then yes? But if they are not doing this, should we not try to help them? Should we not try everything we can to lead them back to the right path? Should we not try to give them as much as God's Word to try to convict them so they will repent??

Art, I have a question for you. Are you trying to turn from your sin at all or are you just enjoying it? Do you feel sorrow for your sin or have you reached that place where you just acknowledge that this is just something that you're going to do? Do you just have the head knowledge where you know you should feel bad because you know it's a sin, yet you don't? I see you said that you don't even struggle with not doing it, that you just struggle with the fact that it's a sin. So are you trying in any way to obey God and sin no more?

First I want to apologize for the length of what is to come. I feel this is not the place for it but grow tired of the way this thread is going. So, I'll talk about my personal sin, but then I will TRY, once again, to get back to the point because this is NOT suppose to be about ME, but about ALL the sin in the church, and yes, UNREPENTANT sin.

Ok, me. Yes, I feel bad about my sin. I want to be strong enough not to do it, but I am not. I have been hurt too bad in past relationships to the point of having a gun pointed at my head praying for a sign I could pull the trigger. I trusted a marriage to God and 100% believe it was from God. Through her leading me to my church I went from believing in god, but really a god I made up, to being onfire for the real God, scripture and all that goes with it (NO, I am NOT perfect and yes, I have a LONG way to go). But in the end, she had multiple affairs and left me for the 6th. This was the second wife to leave me.

I STILL believed in the marriage even with the affairs and felt God pushing me to fight for it. so I did until the day we signed the papers when I felt a very clear change in God's push for me. But still, the wound from that is very deep, and due to it, I cannot bring myself to the risk of trusting a relationship so openly.

For the past nearly four years I struggled with premarital sex. I know its wrong. I have tried very hard to repent and not do it. I have failed many times, been convicted of it and repented; trying my best not to do it again (failing, but trying). Now I have finally met this lady.

This one is one that I can easilly see marrying in the future; one that I would very much like to have that happen with. Do I know premarital sex is wrong? Yes. Do I still feel the conviction showing me it? yes. But because of my past, I cannot bring myself to stop because I want her to know EVERYTHING about me, good and bad. I want her to get past the courtship phase and see the non-fantasy me with all my flaws and shortcomings so that she knows full well what she is getting into. I want her to see the REAL me for the real me, to see my flaws and see that there are somethings I can do differently for her, but somethings that are just not going to change. And yes, a good part of that involves all stages of intamacy from holding hands to sex. Do I feel guilty about disobeying God? Yes. But I cannot bring myself to risk my heart and my hopes at marriage again without her knowing absolutely everything she possibly can before.

Now, to go on to my point. You are all focusing on this one sin of mine. But I have admitted a number of others which I cannot claim any more repentance to. So why this sin? Is it because to focus on the others I have admitted, you would have to admit the same about yourselves?

Why are we not focusing on why I spend far more on playtime stuff and luxary items than on helping my brother and sisters around the world? Why do we not focus on the $20 pizza I had last night while literally thousands of ours family died yesterday for lack of food? Why not focus on the medicines I use for petty reasons while my brothers and sisters die for lack of the most basic meds? Why not focus on all the sins I commit reguarding my (comparitave) wealth, spending it on me and my papmered lifestyle (called coveting) while millions go without the most basic needs of life? Why not spend post after post preaching to me about coveting, about selfishly hoarding what is "mine", why not rebuke me on not putting those who are in great need first, why not cast me out for not loving my neighbor as myself? Is it because I am repentive? No because I don't see me giving up my comfort and leisure activities to give and help as I should.

I believe we are not focusing on these sins because they are the same sins nearly all Americans are guilty of and are just as "repentant" of as I am. If we were to focus on these sins of mine and cast me out for them, you would also have to be cast out. And before you say this isn't the same kind of sin and not included in the verse to cast out, this kind of behaviour is coveting your money and coveting is one of them.

My point was not to justify my sins as I fully admit my guilt in them. My point was to point out the same sins in the vast majority of Christians and ask why they are not judged and cast out while you preach to have others condemned and cast out. If you are going to cast out anyone who is guilty of sexual immmorality, you need to cast out those that covet their money as well. And if you do as I have said in my other posts, you DO covet it or you'd be spending it on helping your neighbor instead of spending it on leisure and luxary items.

So again, I ask not that you ignore God's word and not cast out those that flaunt their sins or try to draw others into it, but that you examine the plank in your eye before pointing at the splinter in mine or any other brothers. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Bless...ArtS

P.S. I am done speaking of my sin in this. If you want to discuss it with me further, I welcome you to write me privately.

Pointerman

August 25th, 2003, 10:12 AM

Art,
You are so far off I can't imagine anything anyone of us might say that will help. Let me say this though, it is not a sin to live in America and as a result of that being able to afford a comfortable life. We are not commanded to sell everything we have to feed the poor. Even in the new testament church what we saw was wealthy land owners selling a portion of their property to help the needy AMONG their congregation. Since you don't have a clue how much money anyone on this board gives to the needs of the poor you are just casting a wide net thinking everyone is guilty of the same sins as you. You have readily admitted a sin that not only involves you, but also a person you claim to love. Dragging another person into sin is not love. I don't expect you to respond, but I am very sorry for the pain you have experienced in your life. Ignoring God's plan for a loving relationship will NOT somehow make your next relationship better. It will likely destroy it before it ever starts.

KrispyKritter

August 25th, 2003, 11:54 AM

SapphireGrl... I'm glad you got in on this because you articulated my position on this far better than I did. What a word you "spoke". You are right on the money.

It's amazing that this thread has gone on as long as it has. Whats even more amazing is the number of people who have chimed in and basically said "Why involve the whole church? Why embarass the person or his family? This is so mean and judgemental... etc etc". I can answer that in 4 words... because scripture says to! Whats so hard about that?

Is it easy to obey scripture in this situation? Of course not. But where is everyone's faith? If God gives us a directive, shouldnt we follow it just as it is given to us? When I was in the Marine Corp we would be given a directive, and most of the time the directives made no sense... but you know what? It didnt matter. You know why? Because I didnt see the big picture. My CO did... but I didnt. I had to trust my CO, trust that he knew what he was doing. I had a job to do, and that was to obey.

In church discipline God was very precise and He expects the church to do it's job. If the job does not get done, then we are being disobedient. Period. And eventually you end up with a mess like you see in some churches concerning gays. If you dont think sin in the church isnt infectious... look at the Presbytarian Church and compare where they are now to where they were 100 years ago.

As far as Art is concerned... I'm still not going to converse with him concerning this because he's not listening. I wish you werent so blind, my friend.

Rom831

August 25th, 2003, 11:55 AM

Pointerman - Your reply is only denial and accusation to make you feel better. I hope in your heart you know its true and someday remove the plank from your eye.

And yes, I can make a blanket statment about most Americans. We live in nice homes, feed our faimlies well with cool food (pizza, fast food, fancy resturants, Thanksgiving meals), own a car or four, spend hours on the high-tech computers we spend hundreds of dollars on, travel the country or world on pleasure trips, go to high priced movies, concerts and sporting events, spend $30, $50, $80 on a ssingle pair of shoes, designer clothes, cd and dvd collections and on and on and on.

Yet throughout the world millions starve to death, millions have no potable water and go without life saving medicines. They go days without food, sometimes deciding if dad gets to eat so he can have the strength to work, or sacrifice the food for the children. They drink water from streams so polluted that fish cannot survive in them. Not only do they not have life saving immunizations, but not even a simple bandaid when such a thing can stop infection and very literally save lives. Things that literally pennies a day could change.

Last time I heard, World Vision estimated 30,000 die PER DAY for these reasons. The cost of the computer you are typing on, I can nearly guarentee, is more than a years income in many of these countries (often less than $300 a year).

Jesus said to be perfect, sell your possesions and give to the needy. Have you? Jesus said we are welcomed because we fed Him when He was hungry explaining that when we feed the hungry, we feed Him. Jesus said to love our neighbor as ourself yet we spend our money on all I have listed and more for US while those neighbors die of starvation. Jesus said we are to be servants, yet we serve our wants above others needs. Jesus says we are to protect those who cant as I wipe itchX on my mosquito bite while someone looses a limb or life for lack of a bandaid.

I'm sorry. Maybe you are one of the one or two percent that really make a difference and if so, bravo! I give $52 a month myself. But please don't think that is backpatting because $52 is pathetic. I spend nearly that much on my internet connection. So I, like most of us, fall well, well short of following Jesus' commands in this. Like it or not, admit it or not, that IS a sin. And not stopping it is not repenting. Justifying and rationalizing it to yourself won't change that.

Go ahead, judge me all you want. As for me, the only stones I worry about are the ones thrown by He who is without sin.

Bless...ArtS

Rom831

August 25th, 2003, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
As far as Art is concerned... I'm still not going to converse with him concerning this because he's not listening. I wish you werent so blind, my friend.

I admit my sins, you deny yours. Who is the blind?
Bless...ArtS

Ynott

August 25th, 2003, 01:10 PM

There are so many things racing through my mind and heart after reading these last few posts....and my spirit is deeply troubled.

I would like to issue a "prayer challenge" here on this thread that the truth might prevail and all confusion banished.

Please join me in praying for the Light of Christ to shine brightly here. Pray for any and all individuals involved on this thread.

Please pray for the next week and meet me back here next Monday if you remember.

I thank you brothers and sisters.

Pointerman

August 25th, 2003, 06:13 PM

Art,
Sorry buddy, but I would love to see the scriptural support for me to make my family homeless so I can feed people thousands of miles away. Show me the specific verse reference (book, chapter and verse). I actually see that scripture states that a man that does not provide for his family is worse than an unbeliever.

1 Timothy 5:8
But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has [2 Tim 2:12; Titus 1:16; 2 Pet 2:1; Jude 4] denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

I will back off addressing your sin since only you are accountable to God for your actions and you are not a member of my congregation.

SapphireGrl

August 25th, 2003, 11:11 PM

Hey Art, I have a question. What do you believe God meant in this chapter that we're discussing? Since you don't believe that 1 Corinthians 5 says what we are saying it does, what do you believe this chapter is about? And what do you believe it's saying when it says to expel the members sinning in the ways listed in verse 11? I would truly like to know your thoughts on this chapter and how you believe we as Christians are to follow God's instructions in this chapter within the church. Or do you believe that this chapter is not even valid?

Christ said go and sin no more, he didn't say keep on doing what you're doing, you'll be alright in the end. He didn't say we have the right to abuse the Grace that has been given to us.

You are very correct. But is that achievable or is that the goal we are to strive for?
Yes, it's achievable. If it wasn't, he would not tell us to do it. If Jesus did not intend for the adulterous woman that was going to be stoned to go and sin no more he would not have told her to go and sin no more. He would have told her to just give it her best shot and if she makes it, great, and if she doesn't, well it's like that sometimes.

There are things that I used to do that I don't do anymore because they are sinful. So I literally stopped sinning in that way. It is achievable if we are willing to stop it. If we're willing to crucify the flesh and stop rationalizing and justifying. If we're willing to just stop and be obedient instead of coming up with reasons not to. God knows how hard it is, but you know, he still demands it of us anyway. He's not making a request. He is telling us to stop it. And when he says stop it that's what we're supposed to do. Is it hard? You better believe it, but there is simply no excuse for not even trying because we want to do things our way instead.

SapphireGrl

August 25th, 2003, 11:12 PM

Originally posted by Ynott
There are so many things racing through my mind and heart after reading these last few posts....and my spirit is deeply troubled.

I would like to issue a "prayer challenge" here on this thread that the truth might prevail and all confusion banished.

Please join me in praying for the Light of Christ to shine brightly here. Pray for any and all individuals involved on this thread.

Please pray for the next week and meet me back here next Monday if you remember.

I thank you brothers and sisters.
Amen, Ynott. :thumb :):

Rom831

August 26th, 2003, 06:46 AM

Originally posted by Pointerman
Art,
Sorry buddy, but I would love to see the scriptural support for me to make my family homeless so I can feed people thousands of miles away. Show me the specific verse reference (book, chapter and verse). I actually see that scripture states that a man that does not provide for his family is worse than an unbeliever.

1 Timothy 5:8
But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has [2 Tim 2:12; Titus 1:16; 2 Pet 2:1; Jude 4] denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

There is a vast difference in providing for and in what I was describing and you do know it.

Matthew 19:21
Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Luke 12:33
Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

Matthew 25: 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

Acts 20:35
In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.' "

James 2
15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?

1 Thessalonians 5:14
And we urge you, brothers, warn those who are idle, encourage the timid, help the weak, be patient with everyone.

Mark 12:31
The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

Romans 15:1
We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves.

Is that enough?
Bless...ArtS

Rom831

August 26th, 2003, 07:02 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SapphireGrl
Hey Art, I have a question. What do you believe God meant in this chapter that we're discussing? Since you don't believe that 1 Corinthians 5 says what we are saying it does, what do you believe this chapter is about? And what do you believe it's saying when it says to expel the members sinning in the ways listed in verse 11? I would truly like to know your thoughts on this chapter and how you believe we as Christians are to follow God's instructions in this chapter within the church. Or do you believe that this chapter is not even valid?

As I have said before, if the person is flaunting it, trying to get others to join in there sin, arguing it during church or something, then yes, it needs to be dealt with, possibly to the extent of removal. However, this does not mean to cast out every sinner who is not repentive. They are the ones who NEED to be in worship and HEAR the word of God. For it was JESUS who said Mark 2:17 And hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Yes, it's achievable. If it wasn't, he would not tell us to do it.

Not sinning ie achievable? If you never sinned, that would make you perfect. Perfection is achieveable? I thought only Jesus was perfect.

Bless...ArtS

SapphireGrl

August 26th, 2003, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by Rom831
As I have said before, if the person is flaunting it, trying to get others to join in there sin, arguing it during church or something, then yes, it needs to be dealt with, possibly to the extent of removal. However, this does not mean to cast out every sinner who is not repentive. They are the ones who NEED to be in worship and HEAR the word of God. For it was JESUS who said Mark 2:17 And hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
I don't understand how you do not see that this is contrary to what this chapter says. You're talking about using your own human wisdom and emotion in making this decision instead of just doing what scripture tells us to do.

And we're all sinners, Art. But we are not all unrepentant sinners. There is a distinction that you are rejecting. You also seem to be rejecting what verses 12 and 13 say in this chapter about dealing with the unsaved verses the saved. We are to deal differently with the person that is unsaved (sick) and sinning unrepentantly than we are with the brother in Christ that is sinning unrepentantly. Verse 13 is plainly clear. It says to expel the wicked person from among us. It doesn't get any plainer than that.

The problem with your interpretation of 1 Cor 5 is you're rejecting what it says, plain and simple. You're inserting clauses as to how and when you think this should maybe be carried out, if at all, instead of just doing what scripture says to do. I've said before that God is not calling for all sinners to be cast out of the church, but you're rejecting that. First Cor 5 calls for the removal of unrepentant sinners that are sinning in a particular way. You are rejecting that and saying that that makes some people worse than others, which is untrue. The problem are the results that those sins listed in verse 11 bring into a church body and how they destroy an entire church when people refuse to stop sinning in this manner. But you don't want to hear that because you believe it's mean and playing better Christian, etc. I have learned that it is pointless to argue against emotion, which I believe is what is leading you here. You believe it's wrong so you're willing to reject what scripture plainly says in favor of your own interpretation. There's nothing I can do about that.

Not sinning ie achievable? If you never sinned, that would make you perfect. Perfection is achievable? I thought only Jesus was perfect.
It has nothing to do with being perfect or sinless, Art, and I believe you know that. I said nothing about being completely free of sin. We both know that's not possible. It has to do with trying to leave your sinful ways behind. As I stated before, there are things I used to do that I don't do anymore, things that I have left behind because they are sinful. So yes, it is possible to achieve not sinning in a certain way anymore. God expects us to try to leave our sinful ways behind when we know that we are sinning in a particular way. And if we fail, as we often do, he expects us to keep trying. We should never reach a place where we become comfortable in a sin and stop trying just because we struggle with it.

mrsppmrxky

August 26th, 2003, 09:21 AM

Art, when you keep mentioning that we are sinning by having 'things' the scripture of Matthew 26 6-13 keeps coming to mind.

Mary was critisized for not selling the contents of the alabaster box and giving it to the poor. Jesus said that it was a great testimony to her for pouring out her precious 'expensive' ointment on him because we will always have the poor.

I keep thinking, do you advocate that we sell everything and go live on the streets with our children in a cardboard box? (I know that is extreme, but if my having a 99 cent a pound roast to feed my family is wasting money, should I go a buy a 44 cent pound of lentils and boil it in a couple of gallons of water and give the money I would have spent on the roast......... how many gallons of water do I use or should I not buy water, because someone in another country doesn't have water?) this seems to be very flawed thinking.

It can be taken to extreme. God expects us to take care of our families. If we don't He says we are worse than the infidels.

You can't make such a blanket statement over and over. It doesn't hold water. Yes, we do waste money and some times, God lets us get ourselves painted into a corner that we have to suffer to get out of.

I think that the problem God was speaking of is the heart attitude. Many of these people had great wealth and they had made that their idol. He wants first place.

I know some don't agree with tithing, but for me it is my 'resonable service'. It all belongs to God. We should be open to giving to missions, love offerings, helping someone that needs help if it is food, clothing or shelter. The sin enters in when we hold on to our possessions with such a tight fist that we don't allow God to be in control.

Believe me, I have the reputation to being frugal. My husband says that I can make Abraham Lincoln squell because I pinch my pennies. I pinch them to provide for my family. (We were a one income family of 5 for 23 years....believe me, some days we only had pennies and I rolled them to buy gas.) The big difference was the attitude, we shared what we had.

I feel sure that in a church that if you had a person with that type of problem you keep referring to that they would be spoken with and shown scripture. They would be prayed for and dealt with as well. BUT, scripture lists the specific sins that are not to be tolerated in a church.

We may not like, but then the scripture comes to mind. Who are we (the created) to scream at the Creator, 'How dare you do it that way?"

antsinmypants

August 26th, 2003, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by mrsppmrxky
We may not like, but then the scripture comes to mind. Who are we (the created) to scream at the Creator, 'How dare you do it that way?"

:thumb that's my mommy...!

Pointerman

August 26th, 2003, 10:28 AM

Art,
You quoted many verses. Some of them are not at all applicable to our conversation, but many are. The problem is that all of the verses about selling everything were instructions to specific people. They were instructions given to an individual. I no more expect to have the power to raise the dead than I expect that Christ expects me to sell everything and walk the streets proclaiming His good news. I have a family to provide for.

As for all of the other verses that apply to the general population; while I am confident that I could give more money, I don't believe for one second that I am not right where God wants me at this moment in time. I am quite sure He will continue to stretch my faith in the area of giving, but you must realize that one mans giving in faith might be another mans ignoring of the spirit and sin. This is an area where God leads us all as individuals down a path. Not all are called to a vow of poverty. Many are given great wealth so they can use it for great good. Sorry, but you really don't have a handle on this poor issue.

I really think you are just trying to cast a wide blanket of sin on everyone in an attempt to justify yourself. You alone will stand before God and be accountable for your actions. If you think pointing a finger at all other Christians while standing before your Lord and God will make a good case for you sin then so be it. I wish you luck.

Love in Christ.

Rom831

August 26th, 2003, 12:23 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SapphireGrl
I don't understand how you do not see that this is contrary to what this chapter says. You're talking about using your own human wisdom and emotion in making this decision instead of just doing what scripture tells us to do.

And we're all sinners, Art. But we are not all unrepentant sinners.

Then you have done what all those verses I just posted say? You've repented of pampering yourself and family with all the stuff I posted that we in America deem as everyday stuff? You have sold it off and given it to help the poor? I applaud you, I am too weak. I cannot seem to think I can live without my convertible, DVDs, computer, cell phone, pizza, fast food, movies, leisure activities, book collection, TV, nice clothes, etc, etc. I feel guilty when I only send in my little check to World Vision each month. I wish I could bring myself to sacrifice more and follow Jesus' commands to give it up like you....

The problem with your interpretation of 1 Cor 5 is you're rejecting what it says, plain and simple.

No, I am intrepreting it using ALL of scripture not blindly accepting it as a stand alone verse and ignoring all the rest of scripture which counters your intrepretation of it as a stand alone command. I am not rejecting it NOR am I rejecting the rest of scripture which does not allow for your all-encompasing command.

I've said before that God is not calling for all sinners to be cast out of the church, but you're rejecting that. First Cor 5 calls for the removal of unrepentant sinners that are sinning in a particular way.

If I am, I am doing no more than you all are. You are focusing on the ones of that which do not include you. THAT is what I am trying to poing out that you keep ignoring. I listed scripture which Jesus, in His own words, gives direct command and instruction. Not following this by keeping your wealth and prospierity for yourself in your comfortable lifestyle is COVETING your money. COVETING is one of those in your list that calls for the person to be cast out.

It has nothing to do with being perfect or sinless, Art, and I believe you know that. I said nothing about being completely free of sin.

Ok, that was my point. We cannot go and sin no more. When Jesus said we are to be perfect as He is perfect it was not meant to be achievable. It was a goal and something we are to strive to do. We CAN put aside particular sins. We CAN go and try our best not to sin again. But we will never fully go and sin no more until we are in heaven. That was my point.

Bless...ArtS

Rom831

August 26th, 2003, 12:49 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pointerman
Art,
You quoted many verses. Some of them are not at all applicable to our conversation, but many are. The problem is that all of the verses about selling everything were instructions to specific people. They were instructions given to an individual.

No, that holds no water or we can put off everything in the entire Bible. Corinthians is not applicable because it was spoken specifically to the church in coranth. Romans to Rom, Thessalonians to the church there, etc. No, the whole Bible applies to us, like it or not.

I no more expect to have the power to raise the dead than I expect that Christ expects me to sell everything and walk the streets proclaiming His good news. I have a family to provide for.

You DO have that power if your faith is strong enough and you do not doubt. Christ says you do. You could tell a mountain to move and it would if you had the faith and lack of doubt.

He does not say to abandon your family but to give your wealth to the poor. You do not NEED ANY of those things I mentioned. They are LUXARIES. Want proof? Look in the Bible and show me where one person had a car, tv, cable/satelite, internet, dvd, cell phone, computer, fast food, movies, swimming pools, gyms, malls, Nike, Levi (jeans), Pepsi, Dominoes, Mc Donalds and on and on and on. These are not things you need to provide for your family they are luxaries we waste our money on day in and day out instead of helping those Jesus commands us to help.

Sorry, but you really don't have a handle on this poor issue.

To the contrary, I do have a handle on it. I know where God wants us. He tells us right there in His word. You just don't like it and choose to deny it so you can continue on it your ways. And I'm not saying you are bad or anything for it because I do it too. As do 98% of all of us.

I really think you are just trying to cast a wide blanket of sin on everyone in an attempt to justify yourself. You alone will stand before God and be accountable for your actions. If you think pointing a finger at all other Christians while standing before your Lord and God will make a good case for you sin then so be it. I wish you luck.

Too funny. This is getting old. I cannot even grasp how me admitting my sins and calling others on their own sins, sins which I also freely admit, is justifying anything.

Bless...ArtS

Pointerman

August 26th, 2003, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by Rom831

Too funny. This is getting old. I cannot even grasp how me admitting my sins and calling others on their own sins, sins which I also freely admit, is justifying anything.

Bless...ArtS [/B]

Agreed. I will let this go. Clearly we will never interpret scripture in the same fashion.

SapphireGrl

August 26th, 2003, 05:10 PM

You just don't get it, Art, and I believe that perhaps it's because you don't want to get it. I believe that you're blinded because 1 Corinthians 5 hits too close to home for you according to what you've revealed to us about you and your girlfriend.

I am sure that you will tell me that I am wrong and that perhaps I am being judgemental or hypocritical, and I'm quite willing to accept that. So I will simply be in prayer for you, that God will reveal the truth to you about this as I have come to believe that He is the only one that can convince you of what the scriptures really say. You can pray for me too. :): Good luck to you and God Bless.

Snowman

August 27th, 2003, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by Rom831

He does not say to abandon your family but to give your wealth to the poor. You do not NEED ANY of those things I mentioned. They are LUXARIES. Want proof? Look in the Bible and show me where one person had a car, tv, cable/satelite, internet, dvd, cell phone, computer, fast food, movies, swimming pools, gyms, malls, Nike, Levi (jeans), Pepsi, Dominoes, Mc Donalds and on and on and on. These are not things you need to provide for your family they are luxaries we waste our money on day in and day out instead of helping those Jesus commands us to help.

Umm....this stuff wasn't around 2000+ years ago. Is it a sin to possess these things today simply because they hadn't been invented yet during Jesus' day? Like it or not, alot of these instruments are the tools of our trades. If you use them to promote the Kingdom of God.....that's fine. If you let them use you (i.e. idolatry, covetous) then you need to get rid of them.

Darrin

antsinmypants

August 27th, 2003, 11:22 AM

Darrin, You took the words right outta my mouth

Rom831

August 28th, 2003, 06:11 AM

Originally posted by Snowman
Umm....this stuff wasn't around 2000+ years ago. Is it a sin to possess these things today simply because they hadn't been invented yet during Jesus' day? Like it or not, alot of these instruments are the tools of our trades. If you use them to promote the Kingdom of God.....that's fine. If you let them use you (i.e. idolatry, covetous) then you need to get rid of them.

Darrin

I didn't say it was a sin to possess them, I said they are luxaries, not needs. It was said of my view that I was advocating not providing for our families so I was pointing out that there are many, many things we "provide" our families that are pure luxaries that no one needs.

My cell phone is not a sin, but wasting enough money on it each month that could be used to quite literally save the life of a mfamily of God's children so that I can call my girlfriend on the way from work qualifies for a number of them. Its coveting my possesions, its selfish, its greedful, its not looking out for the weak, its not loving my neighbor as myself, its putting myself and desires above the needs of others and its not sering my fellow man.

The only thing hard about seeing this is not wanting to admit it.

Bless...ArtS

Shyguy

August 28th, 2003, 06:29 AM

I've just discovered this thread and I had a question that is now kinda plaguing me.

My wife and I are friends with another couple who's husband I have known for a long time. They both say they are christians, but they have one sin that just troubles us. We have spoken about it in the past, but they claim there is no lust when enjoyed together ( Porn ) ....

They say there is no lust and since they are married its ok. My wife and I disagree and I know ya'll would to.

Should we stop associating with them, keep talking to them about it, or what? .. They dont flaunt it, talk about it in front of people or anything .... Its just something we know from being long time friends ....

I've known him for 15 years so you can kinda see my delima.

Snowman

August 28th, 2003, 07:18 AM

Originally posted by Shyguy
I've just discovered this thread and I had a question that is now kinda plaguing me.

My wife and I are friends with another couple who's husband I have known for a long time. They both say they are christians, but they have one sin that just troubles us. We have spoken about it in the past, but they claim there is no lust when enjoyed together ( Porn ) ....

They say there is no lust and since they are married its ok. My wife and I disagree and I know ya'll would to.

Should we stop associating with them, keep talking to them about it, or what? .. They dont flaunt it, talk about it in front of people or anything .... Its just something we know from being long time friends ....

I've known him for 15 years so you can kinda see my delima.

Assuming the married couple are both Christians, the Holy Spirit should convict them of watching porn. God makes in clear that all sex should be in the context of marriage between one man and one woman; watching other people have sex is not what God intended for us. I would start by praying for the Holy Spirit to start convicting them!

A very important point I'd like to make here: At this stage, DO NOT ask others to pray for their sin! This brings undue attention. Your friends only need to repent before God.....not man. The fervent prayer of you and your wife is sufficient to bring results. Just make sure you have acknowledged and repented of YOUR sin before you start praying for others sins!

The whole idea about expelling the immoral brother has been discussed ad nauseum on this board so I won't elaborate any further except to say it should be used only as a last resort!!!

I pray this helps.

Brother Darrin